How to fix Overguard and save Crowd Control

[(PSN)EmperorBlastoff]

Ever since Overguard  was added it left crowd control in a pretty bad spot. Due to this many frames who use or rely on CC were severely nerfed. A good example would be Grendel, for him to use any of his abilities he has to consume enemies with his one, but he can't do that against enemies with Overguard, due to them having CC immunity. This is even more evident if you're doing endgame content or hell if you're in a Eximus stronghold, game modes where Eximus units spawn frequently. This problem is the same for all frames with CC, So how do we fix this? I do have a few ideas that could help that not only save CC, But also not nerf Overguard. First I would  remove Overguard's CC immunity, and in its place it would instead give enemies immunity to all status effects except for void, and a 50% damage reduction from warframe DPS abilities.With these changes not only will this encourage players to use frames with CC, it will also make  Overguard units still be a big threat. Only now Overguard units are no longer immune to CC effects,are now just immune to status, and are more resistant but not immune to DPS abilities.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

46 minutes ago, (PSN)EmperorBlastoff said:

 how do we fix this?

We shoot the enemies first to remove Overguard and then CC them or just kill them.

[Chewarette]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

We shoot the enemies first to remove Overguard and then CC them or just kill them.

That's where the problem lies - deleting the overguard first means you can kill them pretty easily and CC is no longer required. That's why CC virtually no longer exist in this game, except for very few niches. And that sucks as it removes some frames (competitively speaking) entirely, and some others are handicapped by having some abilities being totally useless.

So either DE reworks Overguard - the idea from OP here is pretty cool, not gonna lie - or DE reworks half of the roster, starting with pure CC Warframes.

But it seems they're fine with having 10 absolutely-meta-warframes stomping everything, 15-20 okay-ish warframes for which you need to put 10x the work for the same result, and the rest which is absolutely moronically useless unless for very, very niche content that might as well not exist.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

4 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

That's where the problem lies - deleting the overguard first means you can kill them pretty easily and CC is no longer required. 

That's the thing right there. If you can kill the enemies with Overguard easily enough you don't need to CC them at all.

CC is there to shut down the trash mobs around you so you can focus on the tough enemy with Overguard. Stripping Overguard is easy and once that is done you can either CC the enemy as well or kill it...or both. Overguard needs to have CC immunity otherwise a single cast of some abilities would shut down entire tiles of enemies down regardless of their level.

Naturally, there will be content where CC is at a disadvantage, like increased Eximus or direct bossfights (Ropalolyst for example). This is ok as long as you know about this beforehand so you can pick a frame that won't be at a disadvantage.

 

The problem CC has are enemies completely immune to it. These shouldn't exist at all. There can be enemies resistant to CC (bosses) through shorter duration or less severe negative effects applied to them, and enemies that can eventually gain a immunity to CC through adaptation (Sentients), but no enemy should be outright immune to it from the beginning with no way to remove the immunity because that invalidates the CC as a valid gameplay option. Especially if the said enemy isn't a guaranteed spawn.

Rogue Necramechs are a good example as they are immune to CC but are not a guaranteed spawn. You can take a CC frame into any Lab mission and never run into one but once one spawns it's completely immune to your CC and you're either forced to leave it (if the mission allows it) or have a bad a time. That's the type of enemy complaints should be aimed at, not Overguard.

[Drachnyn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)EmperorBlastoff:

First I would  remove Overguard's CC immunity

Enemies have overguard so they cant just be shut off entirely be limbo or any large scale blind/sleep. That's the point of overguard. An enemy that is completely frozen can never be a threat.

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

That's the thing right there. If you can kill the enemies with Overguard easily enough you don't need to CC them at all.

CC is there to shut down the trash mobs around you so you can focus on the tough enemy with Overguard. Stripping Overguard is easy and once that is done you can either CC the enemy as well or kill it...or both. Overguard needs to have CC immunity otherwise a single cast of some abilities would shut down entire tiles of enemies down regardless of their level.

That's my problem - and OP's, I suppose. If "stripping Overguard is easy", it means killing the enemy is also easy so CC is useless. If stripping Eximus' Overguard is easy, then trash mobs are not a problem either.

Overguard could provide some CC resistance. But 100% is moronic. Especially when they add, in parallel, modifiers in EDA which give everyone and their mothers overguard. It's just an affix that tells "well, just don't pick a CC frame", just as Helminth/Defense targets/shieldgate/energize stuff make Support warframes garbage for group play.

You say Necramech are more a problem than Overguard, but I fail to see the reason why. Necramech are one in a billion as you said, Overguard units are everywhere. If you need to manage tightfully/skillfully the once-every-blue-moon unit that appear to be immune to CC, imo that's more acceptable than going into a mission where you'll have an Overguarded unit for every 5 enemies. 

At the very beginning of DE's experimentation with "random enemies immune to CC" (Vallis), Mag was a pain in the ass to play, whereas she rocked everywhere else - thankfully the shieldgate update provides her with a giganormous survivability tool so she's OK with OG too. Guess what was the conclusion ? Continue playing Mag and get randomly surprised when an enemy resists the disarm/sturn, OR bring whatever Meta FOTM Warframe to just erase everything in range.

And that's the kind of result the Overguard generalization they've created will lead to. Why tf would you have to suffer through bringing a CC Warframe - which usually has poor defenses - to struggle with half of the enemies, when you can just bring Saryn / Mesa and depopulate the planet in two button mashes ?

If anything, updates should give us more options, not less. 5 years ago, AoE/DPS Warframes were awesome, CC had very good utility, and Support had niches. Nowadays, after all the recent updates, AoE/DPS Warframes are mandatory, CC are useless, and Support are useless. Then there are Walking-Bag-of-EHP which are still relevant but no need to mention them. Cool I guess.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

This is definitely more of a "personal" problem than a "general" problem to be honest.

In 85% of game modes, Eximus units or units with innate Overguard are the minority. 1 in every 20/30 enemies might be Eximus. The only exceptions to this rule is the aforementioned Eximus Stronghold, Disruptions Eximus Wave, Eximus conditions as part of a sortie or the Severed Wardens in Albrechts Lab giving out Temporary Overguard based on Distance to it.

These are "Challenges", not "problems". I'll 100% concede that there is no real solution to Eximus Strongholds, but then that means the player planned ahead poorly. If you know you won't be able to CC most/all the enemies, why would you willingly decide to bring a CC frame? Everything else CC has as much importance as anywhere else. If you're facing a room with 50 enemies in it, 2-3 of them should be Eximus at most unless you dragged others from another room. So you CC everyone else and target your attacks towards the 2-3 Eximus first. Job done.

A game mode/difficulty asking you to change your strategy from "hold circle to win" to the bare minimum doesn't make it bad, nor a problem.

Edited May 15 by (PSN)MYKK678
.

[Tsukinoki]

11 hours ago, (PSN)EmperorBlastoff said:

  remove Overguard's CC immunity, and in its place it would instead give enemies immunity to all status effects except for void, and a 50% damage reduction from warframe DPS abilities.With these changes not only will this encourage players to use frames with CC, it will also make  Overguard units still be a big threat.

Please tell me this:
How can an enemy that is 100% locked down from the second it spawns to the second it dies "still be a big threat"?

Because that is seriously what you're asking for.

We would just lock down the entire tile and then proceed to kill the turned off enemies without anything in our way.

The only reason that overguarded enemies can actually be a threat is that they are immune to the CC and can't just be turned off like every other trash mob on the map.

 

On the other hand outside of a few instances, namely the eximus stronghold missions, these enemies are the minority and therefore aren't an overwhelming presence that goes "CC can't do anything!!!!" like some people like you are trying to make it out to be.

Edited May 15 by Tsukinoki

[Tiltskillet]

Sorry, awful idea.  I'm all for mitigating the effect of Overguard on CC, but eliminating it?  That would be a step backwards as far as my gameplay is concerned.  And simply isn't going to happen for the practical reason that one of DE's motives for doing this was reducing automated farming.

And then substituting status immunity, of all things?  Another major, major step backwards.  Ugh.

[Faultron]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

That's the thing right there. If you can kill the enemies with Overguard easily enough you don't need to CC them at all.

CC is there to shut down the trash mobs around you so you can focus on the tough enemy with Overguard. Stripping Overguard is easy and once that is done you can either CC the enemy as well or kill it...or both. Overguard needs to have CC immunity otherwise a single cast of some abilities would shut down entire tiles of enemies down regardless of their level.

Naturally, there will be content where CC is at a disadvantage, like increased Eximus or direct bossfights (Ropalolyst for example). This is ok as long as you know about this beforehand so you can pick a frame that won't be at a disadvantage.

 

The problem CC has are enemies completely immune to it. These shouldn't exist at all. There can be enemies resistant to CC (bosses) through shorter duration or less severe negative effects applied to them, and enemies that can eventually gain a immunity to CC through adaptation (Sentients), but no enemy should be outright immune to it from the beginning with no way to remove the immunity because that invalidates the CC as a valid gameplay option. Especially if the said enemy isn't a guaranteed spawn.

Rogue Necramechs are a good example as they are immune to CC but are not a guaranteed spawn. You can take a CC frame into any Lab mission and never run into one but once one spawns it's completely immune to your CC and you're either forced to leave it (if the mission allows it) or have a bad a time. That's the type of enemy complaints should be aimed at, not Overguard.

This doesnt work when every enemy comes with overguard. There was a sortie for example not long time ago. I tried to complete the sortie 2 times in a row and gave up, we were not even close to finish the level 1 sortie. There is also eximus spawn in disruption. I dont believe overguard was added to the game to combatt CC, but it was added to the game to deal less damage.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Nah.

Overguard needs to keep preventing crowd control.

What needs to be checked is what enemy units should be allowed to acquire Overguard, with limitations that make sense in the way that it was originally designed for : making sure players engage with some enemies' special mechanics (namely eximus units who cast some exclusive spells).

 

If the entire enemy army is able to get overguard, then that becomes a real problem (as shown by EDA modifiers), since frames whose entire identity revolves around CC now cannot even do their main gameplay loop at all. I'm talking frames like Limbo and Nyx primarily, but it doesn't exactly stop there, since CC is an indirect form of survivability tool. And well, you can't exactly expect every frame to just run Arcane Blessing, Arcane Guardian and Adaptation together with a Gloom subsume...

 

CC isn't in such a horrible place as so many YT Warframe CC's will lead you to believe these days, it's just Overguard is being slapped on things that aren't intended to receive it in the first place. With unhealthy amounts of it ensuring that it's a chore to engage with it.

[Drachnyn]

Am 16.5.2024 um 01:33 schrieb Fred_Avant_2019:

If the entire enemy army is able to get overguard, then that becomes a real problem (as shown by EDA modifiers), since frames whose entire identity revolves around CC now cannot even do their main gameplay loop at all. I'm talking frames like Limbo and Nyx primarily, but it doesn't exactly stop there, since CC is an indirect form of survivability tool. And well, you can't exactly expect every frame to just run Arcane Blessing, Arcane Guardian and Adaptation together with a Gloom subsume...

This might be a hot take but tbh I think you can make any frame hp tank in content where an insane increase in overguarded enemies can be expected. lvl 400 is right about where hp tanking is barely still possible with stuff like mecha armor boost, adaptation, armor arcanes, life strike and a helminth ability.

Edited May 17 by Drachnyn