Deep Archimedea's approach to difficulty feels lazy.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

As the lights flicker on and off giving you brief moments to see where they're coming from next

Nighwatch missions are... more or less like that. That would be interesting to just have darker missions.

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

I think what make #8 and #9 bad is the fact that you of course need to activate all of them if you want all the rewards.

At elite version you can not pick 1 modifier because Vosfor is available elsewhere in easier way. So you can have your weapon or frame of choice.

And if there is another specific modifier you don't like you may not pick 2 modifiers. You forfeit just 1 reward. That's still 2x more rewards than Netracells. IMHO don't need to get angry on that.

However at this point (2 modifiers not selected), lots of selection doesn't matter too much. Like I have gun + frame. It doesn't matter what melee or 2nd gun I pick. I won't use them. Other 4 perk may be bad but frame+gun should counterweight it much more.

What makes it bad as well is:

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

Back-to-Back missions requiring a single build to handle various objectives

Say your chosen gear can handle exterminate but not defense. What you do (except leeching)? You pick your cheese gear. That's makes some gear not used. I hate that approach.

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

encourage teamwork and help out solo players.

IMHO solo playing should be reworked. There is so big gap sometimes that some stuffs are just at e.g. 7-9/10 difficulty or time scale while with team it's e.g. 1-3/10. First RJ solo is horrible experience. Doing void fissures solo is like... let's just say it's laughable experience.

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

But Netracells in my opinion have a better way of doing this. The disadvantages are distributed to whoever in the squad wants to take that burden. Obviously the cheesy solution would be to have one member take it all and the others would then do the mission, but there could be more factors put in to both encourage teamwork and help out solo players

Netracells does it good but with my Dante I pick 3-4 perks all the time without even thinking too much.

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

or example, let's say the player with loadout restrictions is the only one who can make enemies drop viles in Alchemy, or damage the Demolishers/Necramechs.

IMHO players that takes detrimental perks or gear restrictions should have bonuses instead of more restrictions. So it's more "I make X worse but Y better".

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

For example, let's say the player with loadout restrictions is the only one who can make enemies drop viles in Alchemy, or damage the Demolishers/Necramechs. Teammates could then apply statuses, but they'd want the restricted member to deal the damage.

This could be other way around. All enemies can do all things to Demolishers/Necramechs but the player with restriction can have bonus damage to Deom/Mechs. Or they can slow down them down.

1 hour ago, Probably_Asleep said:

Furthermore, let's say a teammate who has survivability debuffs carries the life of the entire squad. If they die before Last Gasp / Revival then everyone in the squad will die

Ugh... I just hate any kind of permadeath or 'all team failure without chance to redo'. In games where levels are quick permadeath and similar approach is ok/good. I can die and retry level/mission many times per minute. In warframe failing e.g. 15 minutes feels like "nope, I don't feel like playing this mode... or game at all". I'm glad they make "kill Angel to revive teammate".

[Probably_Asleep]

Quxier! I made a gif to show I'm excited (or weird you out? Hopefully the first one...)

Quote

 

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Nighwatch missions are... more or less like that. That would be interesting to just have darker missions.

I wouldn't mind some more jump scares in Warframe!

4 hours ago, quxier said:

At elite version you can not pick 1 modifier because Vosfor is available elsewhere in easier way. So you can have your weapon or frame of choice.

And if there is another specific modifier you don't like you may not pick 2 modifiers. You forfeit just 1 reward. That's still 2x more rewards than Netracells. IMHO don't need to get angry on that.

However at this point (2 modifiers not selected), lots of selection doesn't matter too much. Like I have gun + frame. It doesn't matter what melee or 2nd gun I pick. I won't use them. Other 4 perk may be bad but frame+gun should counterweight it much more.

If given the option, I'd prefer 3 choices. Frame of choice, 1 weapon of choice, and one disadvantage dismisses. I know that's asking a bit much, so I'd settle for the last two and just wait for whenever Mag became available.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Say your chosen gear can handle exterminate but not defense. What you do (except leeching)? You pick your cheese gear. That's makes some gear not used. I hate that approach.

Agreed! The available weaponry really seems like the biggest factor to me. I can usually handle everything else as long as I have a good weapon, but without good weapons (especially for Defense/Survival where kill time is essential), I just ignore that week.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Netracells does it good but with my Dante I pick 3-4 perks all the time without even thinking too much.

My favorite point in new content is when I have a well calculated build that lets me routinely grind through the content. Maybe some would consider that boring, but that's when I feel like I've "mastered" the new content. I really like that feeling, which is why I love Netracells but feel robbed of my good feels when playing E/DA.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

IMHO players that takes detrimental perks or gear restrictions should have bonuses instead of more restrictions. So it's more "I make X worse but Y better".

4 hours ago, quxier said:

This could be other way around. All enemies can do all things to Demolishers/Necramechs but the player with restriction can have bonus damage to Deom/Mechs. Or they can slow down them down.

I like this better than my idea. It would be cool if people felt like they wanted to be the one that carried the extra load. And that would actually work well for solo play as well because the bonuses should help to balance out the disadvantages.

5 hours ago, quxier said:

Ugh... I just hate any kind of permadeath or 'all team failure without chance to redo'. In games where levels are quick permadeath and similar approach is ok/good. I can die and retry level/mission many times per minute. In warframe failing e.g. 15 minutes feels like "nope, I don't feel like playing this mode... or game at all". I'm glad they make "kill Angel to revive teammate".

The load times and missions lengths do make the instant failure much worse, I'll give you that. I have to put a lot of my mod space into survivability when I'd prefer to balance it out more with offense and CC.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

Quxier! I made a gif to show I'm excited (or weird you out? Hopefully the first one...)

Both :|

4 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Netracells does it good but with my Dante I pick 3-4 perks all the time without even thinking too much.

My favorite point in new content is when I have a well calculated build that lets me routinely grind through the content. Maybe some would consider that boring, but that's when I feel like I've "mastered" the new content. I really like that feeling, which is why I love Netracells but feel robbed of my good feels when playing E/DA.

Beating some content and getting better at it is good thing. I can understand, to some extent, feeling of "I've master X and I'm doing good" as well. However expecting player to do such content after mastering may lead to burn out. Even more if rewards are bad (1-5 archon shards are meh).

5 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

10 hours ago, quxier said:

IMHO players that takes detrimental perks or gear restrictions should have bonuses instead of more restrictions. So it's more "I make X worse but Y better".

10 hours ago, quxier said:

This could be other way around. All enemies can do all things to Demolishers/Necramechs but the player with restriction can have bonus damage to Deom/Mechs. Or they can slow down them down.

I like this better than my idea. It would be cool if people felt like they wanted to be the one that carried the extra load. And that would actually work well for solo play as well because the bonuses should help to balance out the disadvantages.

For bonuses & detrimental perks/modifiers they have to be well balanced. Pick Dante. It's pretty good choice to carry 4 Netracells keys. In ESO however it's not that great. He is spammer that uses 4th a lot. Even thought 334 is different than 224, Simaris treat it as 1 ability (4th).

If the bonuses & detrimental perks/modifiers doesn't work for their favorite frames or weapons then they don't want to use it. There is need to be something for them as well.

5 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Ugh... I just hate any kind of permadeath or 'all team failure without chance to redo'. In games where levels are quick permadeath and similar approach is ok/good. I can die and retry level/mission many times per minute. In warframe failing e.g. 15 minutes feels like "nope, I don't feel like playing this mode... or game at all". I'm glad they make "kill Angel to revive teammate".

The load times and missions lengths do make the instant failure much worse, I'll give you that. I have to put a lot of my mod space into survivability when I'd prefer to balance it out more with offense and CC.

Even with survivality options you can die. Random death can occurs when you have not put "too much" survivality options. I've played Archon hunts solo when Narmer beam can hits you through the rift. It was like "I'm doing fine, it's ok... BAM, FAILURE".

[Probably_Asleep]

44 minutes ago, quxier said:

Both :|

Haha! Kinda sorry. So we always have this interchange during our first intersection on a new thread. I post something, you reply, I get all excited, and you're like "thanks..." in an appreciative though obviously less spastic demeanor than I have. For some reason this contrast between my spaz-iness and your composure really amuses me. So! I keep feeling the urge to ramp up my excitement to increase the apparent contrast. I'll tone it down next time. (I mean, where do I go from here anyway? I already made a custom animated gif...)

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Beating some content and getting better at it is good thing. I can understand, to some extent, feeling of "I've master X and I'm doing good" as well. However expecting player to do such content after mastering may lead to burn out. Even more if rewards are bad (1-5 archon shards are meh).

I agree with that. I think I go through four phases with new content:

1. Building - The thrill of novelty and experimentation
2. Routine - The pride of well refined, efficient builds/processes
3. Exhaust - The apathy when the novelty wears off and the rewards have been depleted
4. Depart - The nostalgia from knowing it's time to move on, but remembering the good times

I guess the BRE and D (BREAD?) is almost always going to happen. New content needs to supply some sort of everlasting value to stop before the E phase, which is very rare.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

For bonuses & detrimental perks/modifiers they have to be well balanced. Pick Dante. It's pretty good choice to carry 4 Netracells keys. In ESO however it's not that great. He is spammer that uses 4th a lot. Even thought 334 is different than 224, Simaris treat it as 1 ability (4th).
If the bonuses & detrimental perks/modifiers doesn't work for their favorite frames or weapons then they don't want to use it. There is need to be something for them as well.

I do think this would take some clever programming (or monotonous data entry), but I think disadvantages would be a lot more engaging if they were tailored to each frame. I hadn't considered how ESO would be such an incompatible mode for frames with more balanced kits.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Even with survivality options you can die. Random death can occurs when you have not put "too much" survivality options. I've played Archon hunts solo when Narmer beam can hits you through the rift. It was like "I'm doing fine, it's ok... BAM, FAILURE".

That Narmer Beam! Some of my Archon builds have taken that beam into special consideration. I've noticed that (for Mag at least) the thing that actually kills me is the Slash Proc, not the initial impact. If I install Arcane Deflection I can stop worrying about it. But that's like the only face-tank solution I've found for that thing. Every other survival strategy I use has failed to actually endure the first tick of slash damage from that beam.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I respectfully disagree, and I don't mean that in a way thats reflective or indicative of whether EDA/DA is good, bad, whether you should like it, enjoy it, or not like or enjoy it, but in a more strict neutral observational way about laziness. The accusation of laziness is just a bit... 

For myself, EDA/DA come across as more deliberate, and not as focused on difficulty as many people tend to focus on. My speculation and guess, is from a game design theory? DE wants to figure out ways, that incentivise and motivate players, to A. Team up with other players more, and potentially get more out of team work. B. Utilise a greater range of their arsenal and tools. This in theory? Should then touch on some other game ideas, like giving players a bit more variety and unpredictability in their gaming sessions, and passively encouraging players to dip into some other systems they might generally overlook. 

You probably have some people within DE who are looking at internal data and numbers from us in general, our playing habits, as well as people at DE whose job it is, to look around at industry trends and patterns, and then look for ways that Warframe can potentially learn from them. Some of what I touched on, does include an emphasis on difficulty, but I don't think thats their actual outright goal, its just that many people can have less incentive to engage in playing with others, if they find it as easy, or easier to solo. However they may also have data that shows people who may play with each other, may have higher highs so to speak.

Basically its the idea of a player controlling many variables and having lots of control, and then predictably running a game session, with safety, no surprises, everything that happens, being predictable, safe and anticipated, VS a player with less control, running a game session, paired with other people also with less control, and they might have to sweat a bit in the first part, because the modifiers are really annoying and stupid, but then the middle part gets a bit better, because you banter a bit more with each other, and someone said thank you in chat after you revived them. Since you know, normally death doesn't matter, but here? They appreciate you revived them... then in the last mission, its good times. Everyone is GG's, and talking about how their selection options were trash, but how great it was that you all succeeded, and someone sends you a friend request. 

To be super candid, personally? Eh, sometimes I only play Warframe, for a predictable, chill, solo session, where everything is boring and I know what I am getting into, and I pick my fav Warframes and weapons, and do a  mission type i like, for over an hour. I don't want any randomisers or stuff selected for me, or weird modifiers, or even other people playing with me. I understand people who play and prefer playing this way, because I am one of them. Sometimes. Thing is, its also easy for me to see, understand and acknowledge why so many will also enjoy EDA/DA, as well as Circuit, etc also including me in on that. Not necessarily because of the difficulty, though for some people that might be the appeal.. One weak I got like Lavos (one of my most played), the Phenmor, and the Stropha as my picks. That week was particularly easy, another week, i had far harder picks to try make work, so it was a challenge that week... Sometimes the idea of variety and game play variance and unpredictability is the design goal, before the difficulty. The difficulty can be there if its in service of that in some way.

To put it another way, they probably looked at Archon Hunts, and realised that a large amount of players, all picked similar Warframes and weapons, over and over again, just because they wanted the safe, easy choice. Which, is totally fair and valid, as far as such players. I personally use to see a lot of Revenants, Wukongs, Rhinos in those modes, a lot of Felarx, Kuva Heks, Phenmors, Laetums etc I even used to run Citrine a fair bit, even though I generally enjoy variety more. Predicable, safe, gameplay loops and behaviour.

So and again, just speculation, they probably wanted to explore the idea, of new modes, that sort of go against that. We do already sort of have Netracells, thats there for people who want complete freedom in picking their Warframes and weapons. To me, thats a far lazier idea, because its the same mode, over and over with far less variables (the debuffing keys). Its just Mobile Defence but you have to be close to the thing you defend, but you also don't actually have to defend it, you have to kill, within the red circle, and thats after you just find computers to hack. That being said, lazily designed also doesn't mean bad. Exterminate is one of my fav modes, and will remain to be. its just kill enemy. 

In comparison, even if I personally hated the mode, ED/EDA had to implement way more types of player debuffs and enemy buffs, across more modes, as we;; as figure out thresholds for completion, consider so many other variables around how different things interact with each other, as to not potentially create impossible situations... love or hate the game mode or the ideas behind it, some effort and thought was required. 

That also shouldn't matter much as far as criticisms and issues with the game mode, because lets say hypothetically, we all found out that people actually worked really hard, would we think... "Oh well it wasn't lazy, therefore I have to love the mode?" or is it more accurate to think "well even if its not lazy, I still dislike the mode or idea for these reasons?" then just starting with those reasons. 

Its also not that players should have to do DE's job for them, just that people are often really bad at just explaining what they actually do want, which is also fine too... The issue is, if 100 people dislike something, thats 100 people united with a take. If you ask 100 people to try and replace that thing they all dislike... You won't always end up with 100 people who like the new thing one of them created. You may just end up with as situation where 99 people dislike the new thing. This is why good specific feedback can be so desired. If 100 people like something, 100 people are neutral, and 20 people dislike it? Still a good idea to try and improve the thing, so as many of that 20 may start to like it or just be neutral... thats still valuable, but they also want to maintain that 100 that do like it, and also appeal to the 100 neutral as well... That can get tricky/complicated. 

Its like how do you improve Eidolons? Well anything would literally be better. Okay so Profit Taker... well no, not that either. You (hypothetical example man) just said literally anything would be better? Again, it makes sense that people sometimes know what they don't want, more than knowing what they do want, but... some peoples idea of whats better and an improvement, often runs into the same issue DE has, and many games do, where many people will just disagree and they cool idea they think is amazing is viewed at with mockery and disdain and negativity. (Answering in negatives is easy, actually answering with an idea or suggestion is hard, especially as far as practical implementation)

For (more) transparency as well though, I think EDA/DA is alright/cool. Even if I don't think its lazy, I still have some criticisms. I do like Murmur Assassination, but ehh. Not really as a biweekly task. Some weeks I do have a lot of fun, but I sort of dislike the idea, i might get a tough roll, and have to rely on team synergy instead of soloing. I also haven't had any issues yet, outside one host migration that was definitely a player quitting, but knowing that Warframe can have issues with connections, and host migrations, also doesn't... Then even though I am mostly positive, I still totally understand and get where many people who are more critical and displeased are coming from. 

[quxier]

9 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Both :|

Haha! Kinda sorry. So we always have this interchange during our first intersection on a new thread. I post something, you reply, I get all excited, and you're like "thanks..." in an appreciative though obviously less spastic demeanor than I have. For some reason this contrast between my spaz-iness and your composure really amuses me. So! I keep feeling the urge to ramp up my excitement to increase the apparent contrast. I'll tone it down next time. (I mean, where do I go from here anyway? I already made a custom animated gif...)

Haha, I'm not angry/mad. I was joking as well. Next time I will post Budda image/vide. :D

However I try to keep my enthusiasm or emotions to the minimum in general topics. It may make threads into mess.

20 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

I agree with that. I think I go through four phases with new content:

1. Building - The thrill of novelty and experimentation
2. Routine - The pride of well refined, efficient builds/processes
3. Exhaust - The apathy when the novelty wears off and the rewards have been depleted
4. Depart - The nostalgia from knowing it's time to move on, but remembering the good times

I guess the BRE and D (BREAD?) is almost always going to happen.

I guess you can say: "Building, routing, exhaust and depart" so BREaD. I loaf people with such sense of humor.

21 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

New content needs to supply some sort of everlasting value to stop before the E phase, which is very rare.

The thing is sometimes they want to squeeze as much player's play time as possible without giving too much. I think they are overdoing it with super extra rare arcanes, timegates (big timegates like Netracells 5x per week, 1 archon hunt, 1 archimedea) and not great rewards. Like, it's ok for something to be finished. It doesn't have to lasts for months or years. If you like something -ok, do it. However don't use tricks so we do it for such huge period of time.

 

[Saru.EXE]

4 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I respectfully disagree, and I don't mean that in a way thats reflective or indicative of whether EDA/DA is good, bad, whether you should like it, enjoy it, or not like or enjoy it, but in a more strict neutral observational way about laziness. The accusation of laziness is just a bit... 

For myself, EDA/DA come across as more deliberate, and not as focused on difficulty as many people tend to focus on. My speculation and guess, is from a game design theory? DE wants to figure out ways, that incentivise and motivate players, to A. Team up with other players more, and potentially get more out of team work. B. Utilise a greater range of their arsenal and tools. This in theory? Should then touch on some other game ideas, like giving players a bit more variety and unpredictability in their gaming sessions, and passively encouraging players to dip into some other systems they might generally overlook. 

What's deliberate about randomizing everything? If DE wants to incentivise us to play with others then they should probably start by actually teaching it's players how to play the game, because seeing people on steel path do absolutely no damage because they don't know how to mod their gear properly gets really old really fast. Granted, that is something that might get remedied a bit with the next update. And if they wanted us to use a greater range of our arsenal then it'd be nice if a vast majority of that arsenal wasn't mastery fodder.

And yes, it is still lazy. They just used mechanics that were already in the game, tweaked them slightly and force you to use randomized loadouts and negative modifiers.

I do agree that some of those are nice on their own, having to charge the life support capsules is a nice touch and should probably be put in more areas of the game.

In fact, they could probably do more of these small tweaks for the rest of the game where, the higher the level of the mission the more complex the mechanics get, a bit like how hacking gets progressively more difficult the higher the missions level is.

[Probably_Asleep]

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Haha, I'm not angry/mad. I was joking as well. Next time I will post Budda image/vide. :D
However I try to keep my enthusiasm or emotions to the minimum in general topics. It may make threads into mess.
I guess you can say: "Building, routing, exhaust and depart" so BREaD. I loaf people with such sense of humor.

That's a funny visual. "Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey quxier! Hey quxier!" Then on the other side: "Breathe in the calm, and exhale the distress. Breathe in the peace, and exhale the chaos..."
Noted! I'll remember to not hold back on the puns!

7 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing is sometimes they want to squeeze as much player's play time as possible without giving too much. I think they are overdoing it with super extra rare arcanes, timegates (big timegates like Netracells 5x per week, 1 archon hunt, 1 archimedea) and not great rewards. Like, it's ok for something to be finished. It doesn't have to lasts for months or years. If you like something -ok, do it. However don't use tricks so we do it for such huge period of time.

True. I suppose ideally a game mode would be so fun that you don't even care about the rewards it grants. I'm sure this only applies to a sliver of the player base, but Dojo construction is like that for me. I've remodeled my Dojo many times now (and I've been getting the hankering to do so again). Actually now that I think about it that reminds me of something you mentioned in another thread about intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards...

[quxier]

35 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

8 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing is sometimes they want to squeeze as much player's play time as possible without giving too much. I think they are overdoing it with super extra rare arcanes, timegates (big timegates like Netracells 5x per week, 1 archon hunt, 1 archimedea) and not great rewards. Like, it's ok for something to be finished. It doesn't have to lasts for months or years. If you like something -ok, do it. However don't use tricks so we do it for such huge period of time.

True. I suppose ideally a game mode would be so fun that you don't even care about the rewards it grants. I'm sure this only applies to a sliver of the player base, but Dojo construction is like that for me. I've remodeled my Dojo many times now (and I've been getting the hankering to do so again).

Sure, some fun things may make you play a lot. I love thinkering about weird interaction in Simulacrum sometimes. I exit simulacrum and out of sudden hour passed.

However every fun must end sometime. Without too much player's agency and overrestrictive system (e.g. Arcane double back requires jump, bullet jump and dodge every 4 second to trigger its effect OR Exodia contagion requring bullet/double jump) this will end much sooner.

50 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

Actually now that I think about it that reminds me of something you mentioned in another thread about intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards...

Maybe I've talked about something about intrinsic/extrinsic rewards. That applies here too. Some other related 'term' is Skinner box.

 

52 minutes ago, Probably_Asleep said:

That's a funny visual. "Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey quxier! Hey quxier!" Then on the other side: "Breathe in the calm, and exhale the distress. Breathe in the peace, and exhale the chaos..."
Noted! I'll remember to not hold back on the puns!

Spoiler

 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

4 hours ago, Saru.EXE said:

What's deliberate about randomizing everything? If DE wants to incentivise us to play with others then they should probably start by actually teaching it's players how to play the game, because seeing people on steel path do absolutely no damage because they don't know how to mod their gear properly gets really old really fast. Granted, that is something that might get remedied a bit with the next update. And if they wanted us to use a greater range of our arsenal then it'd be nice if a vast majority of that arsenal wasn't mastery fodder.

And yes, it is still lazy. They just used mechanics that were already in the game, tweaked them slightly and force you to use randomized loadouts and negative modifiers.

I do agree that some of those are nice on their own, having to charge the life support capsules is a nice touch and should probably be put in more areas of the game.

In fact, they could probably do more of these small tweaks for the rest of the game where, the higher the level of the mission the more complex the mechanics get, a bit like how hacking gets progressively more difficult the higher the missions level is.

 

I explained that in my post, though I didn't personally explain it as randomising everything. There is a randomising aspect, but not everything is randomised, the same way there is a limiting element. Its possible those are byproducts of a deeper deliberate intent and design. Think about it this way, out of Netracells, EDA and DA, which mode do you think sees a greater population of players each week, how much overlap occurs, what do you think the retention rate is, and how accurate do you think your guesses would be? If someone asked me, I would... well my answer to the last part, would be that my guesses could be really inaccurate and way off, just because I don't have access to much objective data. DE gets all that stuff though. Its like when back in the day Rebecca talked about how Daily Sorties were really popular. They probably have good reason to think its a combination of reward and time gate, and try to replicate the idea other ways, but giving them slight twists (since just making it exactly like the Daily Sortie would be redundant). 

You can say that if DE wants us to play with others, then they should probably start by actually teaching other players how to play, but thats just introducing another different idea into the conversation, thats broader, with its own set of variables and factors. Not all individuals play with everyone else on Steel Path (to know whether their personal experience is widespread), nor do they hold the same expectations. Either way, someone could say to your point, whats Steel Path got to do with it? If DE wants to incentivise people to play with others, then they need to start by actually addressing the new player experience and slots bottleneck that gets far more players to leave the game before Steel Path. Except whilst that could be worth discussing, it isn't necessarily relevant to your point, and they can exist as ideas alongside each other. 

Sure but thats where alternatives come in, because accusations are easy and fast to make. Its where the exceptions lay where distinctive elements can be said to exist. For example, EDA/DA are extremely lazy, but you should expect that, because everything in Warframe is lazy. Warframe is an inherently lazy game. What things in Warframe, do you think aren't lazy? I am sure someone can take a bad faith approach, and explain why the thing you might like or find fun, is actually really lazy instead. Using mechanics already in the game, and tweaking them.... This is a game that literally just reuses assets all the time. Corpus ships have Resource Boosters as engines, a lot of the game is just repetition tweaked. I mean I won't actually (act in bad faith), but thats sort of my point, until you know what people consider not lazy as well as lazy with a few examples, it can be hard to see how objectively or neutral they are being, or if they are just using a more personal, opinion based metric. 

Like is it only lazy when you personally dislike it and deem it so, and not lazy if you personally enjoy it? This is why relativity and context (and examples) are important when trying to frame things as lazy, and why its also probably just better to be more direct with the criticism. Grendel missions for example, are just regular missions, but our modding is basically turned off. Duviri is a massive open world with new assets, characters, voice lines, mission types, visual structures and landscapes, weapons... Its totally fine if somebody dislikes and doesn't like either. Liking and disliking stuff is just a basic player right. One clearly took more work and effort than the other, had more thought and intent. That being said, many people don't dislike Grendel missions because they are lazy, but because our mods are turned off. Many people don't like Duviri because its original and De worked hard on it, and tried new stuff, fun and enjoying ones self is often independent of whether things are lazy or not. Also obviously, in case it needs to be said, different update sizes will tend to play into that as well. Dagath update, was pretty small, her Extermination mission isn't going to be that ground breaking, compared to say Zariman update, which was larger and came with three new modes, that actually seem like new modes, and not just Exterminate with keys. We also recently got a new type of Disruption. Is that lazy? Maybe, I really like Disruption, and the new Disruption as well, I don't really frame it as laziness. Whether it is or not, doesn't really influence whether I enjoy the mode. Even if elsewhere it could be a factor. 

Yeah that could be interesting. there could be potential with them. I'm personally always down for more options for people. Sort of like how Kuva Survival was a little bit different, how I sometimes like the Abyssal Beacon Exterminate (mostly because the Eximus modifier half way through is quite fun). I also really like the double Disruption Demos as well. I do understand if/when people dislike many modifiers though too. 

[Probably_Asleep]

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure, some fun things may make you play a lot. I love thinkering about weird interaction in Simulacrum sometimes. I exit simulacrum and out of sudden hour passed.
However every fun must end sometime. Without too much player's agency and overrestrictive system (e.g. Arcane double back requires jump, bullet jump and dodge every 4 second to trigger its effect OR Exodia contagion requring bullet/double jump) this will end much sooner.
Maybe I've talked about something about intrinsic/extrinsic rewards. That applies here too. Some other related 'term' is Skinner box.

Same with the Simulacrum! I'd LOVE if the Simulacrum let you spawn Archons and Necramechs for testing as well.

And I've also never had any interest in Arcane Double Back. I'm willing to let someone tell me otherwise but it seems like such a hassle to work with.

(The Orange video: LOL exactly)

[quxier]

6 hours ago, Probably_Asleep said:

Same with the Simulacrum! I'd LOVE if the Simulacrum let you spawn Archons and Necramechs for testing as well.

And duviri https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1397299-duviri-simulacrum-decrees/

 

[Hyroncore]

On 2024-05-19 at 3:57 AM, Saru.EXE said:

Difficulty by subtraction has always been a lazy approach, lacking any sort of creativity, and Deep Archimedea is no different.

All it does is restrict player power without introducing any new mechanics or meaningful challenges.

Additionally if you don't have basically every single weapon and warframe built it's just going to be a massive pain in the butt.

To me it just feels artificial and uninspired. Maybe the upcoming patch will remedy that to a degree but it's overall still disappointing.

 

I am genuinely curious about how you would see it resolved?

As stated in another thread I haven't yet touched the mode so am currently agnostic as to its flaws or good aspects and despite one respondent claiming otherwise am eager to see if there is any ideas that might improve the mode before I start running it regularly assuming I get back onto the rep grind haha.

That said it seems by your opening post that it feels unrewarding. One thing I learnt when learning about game dev is that for feedback to have any use it would help to have some sort of base that could be seen as a point of improvement. Every video I have encountered bar maybe 4 (been chasing a few after another thread that was far worse was talking about this particular issue) had nothing but positivity for the mode and granted that YT is by now means indicative of any games community I am curious on understanding why so many here on forums take a dim view of the mode.

To clarify the game dev sentence we were taught to create a list of potential activities for a game and work on expanding those activities to suit. In warframe I could imagine Duviri being overhauled to provide a better experience particularly as the combat in Drifter feels jank and have been intending to create a post to that effect that would include fixing the inconsistency of the combat when compared to the overall game. As it stands people just hate the randomizer aspect and was curious if you had ideas on how that could be changed in a way that would better that experience like my simple smoothing of combat for Duviri idea (Not the sole idea mind but one that perhaps could be integrated into the Intrinsics available within Teshins cave etc). 

[Hyroncore]

On 2024-05-19 at 9:40 AM, _Kit_Kat_Cat_ said:

Inb4 an army of Yes-men come here and tell you how "wrong" you are and how it's a "skill issue" and how they are "having fun" and how you should "refuse the rewards by not using the randomizer or not playing the game mode at all". Know this - there are many who agree with you and disagree with the direction DE has taken this new content.

And here you are again attacking others without a single shred of actionable feedback that could fix this "broken" system that you demand be removed. If they remove it what do they replace it with? A mode that appeases each individual player? Not ever going to happen but damn son your crying and attacking others sure has a consistency to it.

[Hyroncore]

On 2024-05-21 at 7:06 AM, Saru.EXE said:

Same here, but I guess this is all we got. Also, this forum is for feedback and not suggestions, if I have any of those I'll write them there.

Uh care to clarify that? Suggestions forum is for new player created ideas I always understood this forum to be where you take issues like yours and provide a perspective that includes ideas on how to improve already existing features and functionality. At least thats how my brain proccessed both channels.

Edited May 23 by Hyroncore

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

59 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

And here you are again attacking others without a single shred of actionable feedback that could fix this "broken" system that you demand be removed. If they remove it what do they replace it with? A mode that appeases each individual player? Not ever going to happen but damn son your crying and attacking others sure has a consistency to it.

Ok, you’ve made 4 comments one after the other let people get a response sorted, i get what you’re saying Kat came in rather grenade like, on the other hand their points aren’t actually bad i would agree with a couple of them, they just weren’t worded in the most tactful way possible, deep archi especially elite is very much a could the word revamped mode work here no, no more like a mesh of a sortie and circuit it for me anyway feels lazy in the way that the limited loaded out stuff has been done, i personally don’t care for it but also doesn’t bother me either way, but having spoken to some other players they want to play their favourite weapons, frames etc and i totally understand that, the actual negative buffs are kind of cool makes you actually look at your frame think of how to counter said negative buffs etc i like that, i like to engage my brain.

but when you mesh the whole limited loadouts and negative buffs together it starts to almost segregate some players ie some players have certain frames, weapons and so they may have a limited loadout where they don’t own a single item this then forces some players to piggy back/backpack off other players because they can’t do the content, it causes a division, the whole “get good” argument falls kind of off a cliff here you can play well but if your loadout isn’t on point you are immediately massively held back, i personally feel like deep archi is lazy in its approach, my way off making it more rounded would be to remove the limit loadout stuff, keep everything else but make more unique negative buffs, trying to think of examples something like ways the enemy work, if players stray off on their own something like skitter girl looks for them but she can maybe steal your weapon or for a certain amount of time you lose access to your mini map or something, make a negative buff like melee weapons lose range but gain more speed so you have to think of your build if you follow me there’s a pro and con kind of thing, instead of just the fragmented one being the main assassination maybe for beating this endgame content give us  a very unique experience like a boss fight with something to do with the man in the wall like a Spector of him or something.

Edited May 23 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[Hyroncore]

50 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

Ok, you’ve made 4 comments one after the other let people get a response sorted, i get what you’re saying Kat came in rather grenade like, on the other hand their points aren’t actually bad i would agree with a couple of them, they just weren’t worded in the most tactful way possible, deep archi especially elite is very much a could the word revamped mode work here no, no more like a mesh of a sortie and circuit it for me anyway feels lazy in the way that the limited loaded out stuff has been done, i personally don’t care for it but also doesn’t bother me either way, but having spoken to some other players they want to play their favourite weapons, frames etc and i totally understand that, the actual negative buffs are kind of cool makes you actually look at your frame think of how to counter said negative buffs etc i like that, i like to engage my brain.

but when you mesh the whole limited loadouts and negative buffs together it starts to almost segregate some players ie some players have certain frames, weapons and so they may have a limited loadout where they don’t own a single item this then forces some players to piggy back/backpack off other players because they can’t do the content, it causes a division, the whole “get good” argument falls kind of off a cliff here you can play well but if your loadout isn’t on point you are immediately massively held back, i personally feel like deep archi is lazy in its approach, my way off making it more rounded would be to remove the limit loadout stuff, keep everything else but make more unique negative buffs, trying to think of examples something like ways the enemy work, if players stray off on their own something like skitter girl looks for them but she can maybe steal your weapon or for a certain amount of time you lose access to your mini map or something, make a negative buff like melee weapons lose range but gain more speed so you have to think of your build if you follow me there’s a pro and con kind of thing, instead of just the fragmented one being the main assassination maybe for beating this endgame content give us  a very unique experience like a boss fight with something to do with the man in the wall like a Spector of him or something.

THIS is actually helpful to know. And the idea of making a rewarding encounter like that does sound pretty freaking epic. I could imagine more Nihil type fights being tied to successfully achieving EDA kinda like how they hid the Fragmented one but doing it in a more meaningful way outside of "Collect x eyes" lmao.

Oh hells. I think I know what EDA may have been influenced by but failed to implement. In WoW retail there are Mythic+ runs which you need a key (used to before I quit anyways) to run. There were stacking impairments to higher difficulties. So for example up to key 5 you would have a single negative say that would cause enemies to explode. The 2nd tier came around key level 10 would have enemies that pop and volcanoes would spawn randomly under stationary players and the third came at tier 15 combining the previous 2 with say a curse that randomly hits a party member and if dispelled had an aoe nuke type effect. This while enemy damage and health was increasing at an aggressive rate AND you had to complete each key in a given time. Each death reduced your time to complete to earn maximum rewards while also causing it to be significantly harder. While this may not be exactly what EDA IS I could imagine if it werent some thematicaly relevant variation on that that just didnt focus on random gear and the negatives could perhaps be also combined with a hidden boss like Fragmented One? 

Sorry btw struggling with the multiquote tool when quoting across pages. But noted.

Edited May 23 by Hyroncore

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

15 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

Sorry btw struggling with the multiquote tool when quoting across pages. But noted.

You’re good bro, no sweat 

as for the rest of your post, ye i would say some ideas have been taken from other titles I’m familiar with warcraft, i just feel there needs to be a little more personality put into deep archi if that makes sense, for me personally i try to get it done and out the way as soon as weekly refresh is done i don’t bet hyped for it, i certainly don’t look forward to it, it be nice to just see it get a little bit of lore thrown into it, and just a little more flair you know? 

[Hyroncore]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

You’re good bro, no sweat 

as for the rest of your post, ye i would say some ideas have been taken from other titles I’m familiar with warcraft, i just feel there needs to be a little more personality put into deep archi if that makes sense, for me personally i try to get it done and out the way as soon as weekly refresh is done i don’t bet hyped for it, i certainly don’t look forward to it, it be nice to just see it get a little bit of lore thrown into it, and just a little more flair you know? 

Absolutely!

[Alpha_Tango]

1 hour ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

i personally feel like deep archi is lazy in its approach, my way off making it more rounded would be to remove the limit loadout stuff, keep everything else but make more unique negative buffs, trying to think of examples something like ways the enemy work, if players stray off on their own something like skitter girl looks for them but she can maybe steal your weapon or for a certain amount of time you lose access to your mini map or something, make a negative buff like melee weapons lose range but gain more speed so you have to think of your build if you follow me there’s a pro and con kind of thing, instead of just the fragmented one being the main assassination maybe for beating this endgame content give us  a very unique experience like a boss fight with something to do with the man in the wall like a Spector of him or something.

Will this only encourage e.g. four Revenant players bringing Torid, Laetum etc. for the skitter girl to steal? I don't see any variety in it and is just like 99% of the game all over again. These past weeks, I got to use Nyx, Nezha and Nova again. What is even rare is I was able to complete it with a bunch of Chroma, Mag, Excalibur players that I seldom see in the wild anymore. If I add unused weapons to the mix, I find there is more fun to be had in the game than the usual boring meta arsenal obsessively being used all the time.

Currently, one WF, a weapon and some wits about you are all you need to get through EDA. Understand that I am not against new ideas, If there are any, I just don't think I have seen solid alternatives so far in this thread.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

11 minutes ago, Alpha_Tango said:

Will this only encourage e.g. four Revenant players bringing Torid, Laetum etc. for the skitter girl to steal? I don't see any variety in it and is just like 99% of the game all over again. These past weeks, I got to use Nyx, Nezha and Nova again. What is even rare is I was able to complete it with a bunch of Chroma, Mag, Excalibur players that I seldom see in the wild anymore. If I add unused weapons to the mix, I find there is more fun to be had in the game than the usual boring meta arsenal obsessively being used all the time.

Currently, one WF, a weapon and some wits about you are all you need to get through EDA. Understand that I am not against new ideas, If there are any, I just don't think I have seen solid alternatives so far in this thread.

Ye this is also a good point, it’s a double edged sword like you said crutches can be used, rev, torid for example, i only threw in skitter girl stealing weapons as a small example but i get your point, this is it right here where i said it causes a segregation scenario on multiple sides how do DE work it so it can work on all fronts.

Edited May 23 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[Alpha_Tango]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

Ye this is also a good point, it’s a double edged sword like you said crutches can be used, rev, torid for example, i only threw in skitter girl stealing weapons as a small example but i get your point, this is it right here where i said it causes a segregation scenario on multiple sides how do DE work it so it can work on all fronts.

I like the skitter girl idea, it could be renamed and be considered as another variant of Limunus but naughtier. Also, about piggy-backing, I already experienced both ends of the spectrum where I carried and also felt like I was the one who was carried. It evens out depending on what options you have for the week. Of course, it feels better if you did more kills or damage, but you can do a lot of things that will not be counted in there too. As long as your team wins, people just leave the group, count their rewards and just move on.   

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

6 minutes ago, Alpha_Tango said:

I like the skitter girl idea, it could be renamed and be considered as another variant of Limunus but naughtier. Also, about piggy-backing, I already experienced both ends of the spectrum where I carried and also felt like I was the one who was carried. It evens out depending on what options you have for the week. Of course, it feels better if you did more kills or damage, but you can do a lot of things that will not be counted in there too. As long as your team wins, people just leave the group, count their rewards and just move on.   

I haven’t experienced the needing to be carried part, but i have been carried in other games i’m not a huge fan (my own ego tbh) but i definitely appreciate your opinion from both sides regarding that subject in warframe:)

Edited May 23 by (PSN)FrDiabloFr

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

6 minutes ago, Alpha_Tango said:

like the skitter girl idea, it could be renamed and be considered as another variant of Limunus but naughtier.

Ye that honestly was just me throwing out something off the top of my head, again I appreciate your add on of adapting the idea.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

On 2024-05-22 at 1:15 PM, Saru.EXE said:

And yes, it is still lazy.

I think it came up somewhere else that the actual "lazy" solution would've been Lv8000 Netracells. Which would've been way more fun for me personally. Instead they put in all this extra development to make a game mode that's a lot more complex than Netracells, with a new randomizer and all these new mission conditions, they even tried to let you scale the difficulty for varying reward (lol). Only for players to run cheese strats and fish for carries, just like the rest of the game.