Surivival - make spawn around certain point/npc

[quxier]

In the conjunction survival we have roaming Dax. It gives you strength/efficiency and cast speed buffs in some radius (different color).

What about apply similar mechanic to enemy spawn? There is roaming npc (unkillable/untraceable) - let's call it Spawner. Every 5 minutes the Spawner moves to different life support (or place where life support will appear). It creates zone. The Zone is where enemies spawn. No enemy spawn outside the Zone. Maybe outside the Zone you have some small life drain (not too much, just to show "something is wrong").

 

What it will change? You will have market place where enemies spawn instantly for some time. No need to wait. There will be range of enemies spawned (min & max) so the problem is how fast you can kill them not RNG of current survival. When someone go outside then they won't take your spawn (aka make less enemies to kill, hence less life support and void traces in relic hunts). It will prevent to camping in one place for too long as well. You can even make it more exciting by fighting the Spawner to get extra loot (from rotation database or some uncommon/rare resource/stuff), life support (e.g. guaranteed 2 life support) or you can fight the Spawner to reduce time (like with E/DA survival where you can spawn Necramech; killing Necramech reduce time by 45 second).

[Xaero]

Would be a nice QoL addition, but this:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe outside the Zone you have some small life drain (not too much, just to show "something is wrong").

shouldn't be included. There are deviations from main objective like collectibles, secret rooms and even mini bossfights. Punishing players for searching would be an annoyance.

[Merkranire]

And this is to… force players out of corners or something?

All I’m seeing here is someone locking down the area in a not-so-different-to-hiding-in-a-room way. And we wouldn’t have the chance to duck away from the group when the grindheads get overbearing

I’m all for more incentive to leave the room, since we’ve got the fundamental system of capsules and if players didn’t overbuild for the content they’d be pushed out eventually (as well as goodies scattered across the map and in general sometimes the fight shifts in a way where moving around is encouraged), but I’m not sure if forcing us to stick to the one area is the answer

[(PSN)IdoThea]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

And this is to… force players out of corners or something?

All I’m seeing here is someone locking down the area in a not-so-different-to-hiding-in-a-room way. And we wouldn’t have the chance to duck away from the group when the grindheads get overbearing

I’m all for more incentive to leave the room, since we’ve got the fundamental system of capsules and if players didn’t overbuild for the content they’d be pushed out eventually (as well as goodies scattered across the map and in general sometimes the fight shifts in a way where moving around is encouraged), but I’m not sure if forcing us to stick to the one area is the answer

I think it's more about keeping players together. I kind of dislike doing survival with other players because usually everyone goes their own way and that affects enemy spawns.

Defense is better because players will stick around defense target. 

[Merkranire]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

I think it's more about keeping players together. I kind of dislike doing survival with other players because usually everyone goes their own way and that affects enemy spawns.

Defense is better because players will stick around defense target. 

I don’t know if we need to be forced to stick together. There’s already affinity range (increasable by flares) and, when players aren’t hogging everything, the chance to play alongside and fight together that can incentivise sticking together; spreading out too far isn’t really a problem when I play with my partner since there’s already reasons to stick together due to loading into a mission to fight together in the first place while we move around the map

Edited June 17 by Merkranire

[Chollynn]

I love the idea. Make the area big enough (maybe 270-300m?) so players are not in each others face if they don't want to be. Life support drain is drastic, how about energy drain instead?

[Merkranire]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

I think it's more about keeping players together. I kind of dislike doing survival with other players because usually everyone goes their own way and that affects enemy spawns.

Defense is better because players will stick around defense target. 

🤔 Thinking about it, mostly I feel like problems with sticking together come from some players wanting to stay in the one area, and others moving around. The ones moving around seem like they’re doing what the game wants them to, what with picking up goodies and not sticking to one room while enemies just keep spawning for endless fighting wherever they are

edit: Hm. If you want a mobile spawner, why not treat the mobile players as one?

Edited June 17 by Merkranire

[Zakkhar]

42 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

edit: Hm. If you want a mobile spawner, why not treat the mobile players as one?

They already are.

Enemies spawn:

• Near players
• Near Objectives (if applicable)
• Out of Line of Sight
• In the Next Tile

[Merkranire]

Just now, Zakkhar said:

They already are.

Enemies spawn:

• Near players
• Near Objectives (if applicable)
• Out of Line of Sight
• In the Next Tile

Problem solved *dusts off hands*.

If you want to keep with the spawner, move with the most mobile player

[Zakkhar]

18 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

If you want to keep with the spawner, move with the most mobile player

Mobile players cause overall less enemies to spawn due to constant disabling of current spawn (unbreaking LoS and moving between tiles).

Enemies stop spawning in current spawn imidiately when one of the factors is met, but designation of alternate spawn takes a while, especially if the player keeps moving and the alternate designated spawn is already invalid when the proccess is over).

Edited June 17 by Zakkhar

[Merkranire]

25 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Mobile players cause overall less enemies to spawn due to constant disabling of current spawn (unbreaking LoS and moving between tiles).

Enemies stop spawning in current spawn imidiately when one of the factors is met, but designation of alternate spawn takes a while, especially if the player keeps moving and the alternate designated spawn is already invalid when the proccess is over).

How odd. Not something that’s been a problem, since I’m already moving and seeking enemies to kill. 🤔 I knew it was a thing that the game repositions spawns, but it just sort of flows together quite naturally when combined with intrinsic desire to move around.

I expect it would be a problem if I were to be standing around expecting enemies to come to me, but… there’s so little desire to stand around. That’s what a defense mission is for

Edited June 17 by Merkranire

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

I expect it would be a problem if I were to be standing around expecting enemies to come to me, but… there’s so little desire to stand around. That’s what a defense mission is for

It would be a problem if you wanted to maximize KPM. And it is. Especially with Console Host.

PS: Below, nice try: again trolling and attempting to derange the topic. I won't bite and hopefully nobody else does.

Edited June 17 by Zakkhar

[Merkranire]

11 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It would be a problem if you wanted to maximize KPM. And it is. Especially with Console Host.

Ooooh, I see. We aren’t even talking about gameplay, we’re talking about ways to exploit and take advantage of systems in order to further a mentality that doesn’t try to play a game, but instead makes its own little goals to chase using available mechanics in possibly unintended ways and then either acts indignant when the game isn’t considering them, or outright fights against changes made when the game does try to force them to do something other than stand around like a bunch of lumps.

 🤔 Thinking about it, I haven't found inconsistent spawnrates such a problem in Defense either, despite literally pointing to it as The Mode To Stay In One Place; while fighting the enemies that are already around the area, that gives time for other enemies to spawn and arrive, and it sort of flows from one set of enemies being defeated to reinforcements arriving that then take time to defeat and that gives time for more reinforcements to arrive. Breaks are few enough and they come as a chance to regroup and ready for the next wave, sometimes bringing about those moments of “Is the next wave going to be the end?”. Honestly, KPM seems like such a non-issue for most of the game

[SneakyErvin]

No thanks, there is a reason I dislike regular defense over arbi defense or solo archon defense. It is far more fun finding good spots on your own than having the game telling you where to play. More so when something like a forced spawn area can royally screw up flow unless it for some reason skips every single bad room on a tileset generation.

In addition to that it would screw thing up more for some frames than others, since those frames would no longer be able to pick locations that suit them better. Like Protea or Dagath just to name two. Where you practically want to pick an area where enemies come from infront of you. So you pick a location where enemies might stream in from left and right or left, center and right into a bottleneck. Then you have Xaku that would need to set up new areas constantly instead of "tactically" picking a killing floor where it can maintain the pillars.

If you want "spawners", then go play #*!%ing Excav or something that practically already holds the hand of the group and tell them where to go. Or Disruption. Or Defense. Or Interception.

The only thing I wouldnt mind seeing in survival that sends you off to a different area would be something like the Necramechs in Deep, where you head off to kill them since they lower the time needed for a rotation to finish. Since you can go and kill them and then head back to an area you like.

[Zakkhar]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The only thing I wouldnt mind seeing in survival that sends you off to a different area would be something like the Necramechs in Deep, where you head off to kill them since they lower the time needed for a rotation to finish. Since you can go and kill them and then head back to an area you like.

Or just like in Laboratories. There is an Option to summon and kill Necramech to reduce the timer, but it is no Obligation.

[quxier]

8 hours ago, Xaero said:

Would be a nice QoL addition, but this:

11 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe outside the Zone you have some small life drain (not too much, just to show "something is wrong").

shouldn't be included. There are deviations from main objective like collectibles, secret rooms and even mini bossfights. Punishing players for searching would be an annoyance.

5 hours ago, Chollynn said:

Life support drain is drastic, how about energy drain instead?

I don't mean to be something big. It just mean to show that something is wrong and we need go back to the Zone.

7 hours ago, Merkranire said:

And this is to… force players out of corners or something?

No. It's to force players to move and be around each other, increasing chance of, as name suggest, Survival.

7 hours ago, Merkranire said:

but I’m not sure if forcing us to stick to the one area is the answer

Not one area. Whole topic is about "roaming" aka moving the Spawner (area).

5 hours ago, Merkranire said:

5 hours ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

I think it's more about keeping players together. I kind of dislike doing survival with other players because usually everyone goes their own way and that affects enemy spawns.

Defense is better because players will stick around defense target. 

I don’t know if we need to be forced to stick together. There’s already affinity range (increasable by flares) and, when players aren’t hogging everything, the chance to play alongside and fight together that can incentivise sticking together; spreading out too far isn’t really a problem when I play with my partner since there’s already reasons to stick together due to loading into a mission to fight together in the first place while we move around the map

But vacuum is not 50, 75 (+25 of Vazarin) or 200 (with Fosfor).

5 hours ago, Chollynn said:

I love the idea. Make the area big enough (maybe 270-300m?) so players are not in each others face if they don't want to be.

~300 meters is too much. Keep in mind that you want loot from others players (and affect loot if you are Nekros). I don't know exact numbers but I guess something bigger than Netracells zone would be fine. So you are standing in the middle of zone and you can affect (damage/kill) everything you see (except open world).

4 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

5 hours ago, Merkranire said:

edit: Hm. If you want a mobile spawner, why not treat the mobile players as one?

They already are.

Enemies spawn:

• Near players
• Near Objectives (if applicable)
• Out of Line of Sight
• In the Next Tile

 

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

More so when something like a forced spawn area can royally screw up flow unless it for some reason skips every single bad room on a tileset generation.

Why it cannot do this? I think they sort of do this already.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

In addition to that it would screw thing up more for some frames than others, since those frames would no longer be able to pick locations that suit them better. Like Protea or Dagath just to name two. Where you practically want to pick an area where enemies come from infront of you. So you pick a location where enemies might stream in from left and right or left, center and right into a bottleneck. Then you have Xaku that would need to set up new areas constantly instead of "tactically" picking a killing floor where it can maintain the pillars.

I wouldn't say screw them but rather make it more difficult. However isn't a problem of such frames? Like with Xaku you have 2 static zones. I've changed that ability for Styanax (spammy) and it's much better for mobile version.

Secondly, is it pros & cons of frames? Like it doesn't literally remove frame like with Overguard interaction. It may (not 100% of the case) make it just more dificult. Just staying in 1 room for 20, 40 or 60 minutes is in my opinion not great. 5-10 minutes? Probably ok.

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

If you want "spawners", then go play #*!%ing Excav or something that practically already holds the hand of the group and tell them where to go. Or Disruption. Or Defense. Or Interception.

Those are different modes...

28 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The only thing I wouldnt mind seeing in survival that sends you off to a different area would be something like the Necramechs in Deep, where you head off to kill them since they lower the time needed for a rotation to finish. Since you can go and kill them and then head back to an area you like.

+1

 

[Xaero]

12 minutes ago, quxier said:

I don't mean to be something big. It just mean to show that something is wrong and we need go back to the Zone.

How about a waypoint instead?

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

Or just like in Laboratories. There is an Option to summon and kill Necramech to reduce the timer, but it is no Obligation.

Yeah I think that approach would be best. Terminals that would become available further away from where you camp, and if you want to move and reduce the timer you do so by going there and spawning whatever mob they can think of adding to corpus, corrupted, grineer and infested tiles.

Just now, quxier said:

Why it cannot do this? I think they sort of do this already.

Which do what already? We dont have any spawners, so uhm how do they already do this? Sapwns atm is based on where you are positioned, so if you avoid the bad rooms or bad combinations of rooms things wont spawn in them, but the game itself does nothing to avoid spawning things in connection to those rooms.

3 minutes ago, quxier said:

I wouldn't say screw them but rather make it more difficult. However isn't a problem of such frames? Like with Xaku you have 2 static zones. I've changed that ability for Styanax (spammy) and it's much better for mobile version.

Secondly, is it pros & cons of frames? Like it doesn't literally remove frame like with Overguard interaction. It may (not 100% of the case) make it just more dificult. Just staying in 1 room for 20, 40 or 60 minutes is in my opinion not great. 5-10 minutes? Probably ok.

What you've done doesnt matter. And the other part I have no clue what you are talking about. It would effect different frames differently, some not at all and others way too much since they can no longer decide where to fight in order to overcome their limitations or benefit from their strengths. Just look at Saryn or some other pure AoE frame, they wouldnt care if they can camp or not really, but any frame relying on funneling and bottlenecking to be efficient would be bound by RNG, which they wouldnt have unfold until they are in the mission and sees where the RNG spawner roams.

So it wouldnt exactly help you with survival in groups, since chances would be quite high that players would bail after rota A in order to get a new tileset and new spawner roam pattern better suiting for the frame they enjoy. Bad tilesets already lead to early extractions, imagine that with RNG involved aswell.

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

Those are different modes...

Yes, and plenty of them aswell to pick from in order to have the game tell you where to go. No need to add it to survival aswell.

I mean, there is already a solution to your problem, it's called pre-made groups. So dont shove your "problem" onto solo players that can move to another area if they like.

[Merkranire]

18 minutes ago, quxier said:

No. It's to force players to move and be around each other, increasing chance of, as name suggest, Survival.

Not one area. Whole topic is about "roaming" aka moving the Spawner (area).

Seems to me like it’s a solved problem, it’s just that players are completely uninterested in being either enticed or forced out of their little zones. Seems very much a personal problem while they come up with all sorts of excuses why they need the game to tell them to do something interesting, where even if it does they will figure out a way to undo it unless the game takes away all the fun stuff we can do that may be used to further some player’s goal of being the most boring sack of boredom once the fun wears off. Like some kind of babysitter for adults (I assume they’re adults?) that needs to step in and stop them from being stupid

In fact, plenty of players have made it their personal mission to come up with oh-so-clever ways to stand around as much as possible long past the point where it was fun for a little while, which tells me you’ve got an uphill losing battle since they will fight to keep to their comfort zones, where if you try and force them out of it they will either figure out ways to scurry back to safety or complain that they can’t do it anymore

edit: Basically, I’m interested in suggestions to improve the game personally, just don’t expect them to solve anything even if they enhance my personal gameplay

Edited June 17 by Merkranire

[quxier]

11 minutes ago, Xaero said:

24 minutes ago, quxier said:

I don't mean to be something big. It just mean to show that something is wrong and we need go back to the Zone.

How about a waypoint instead?

Netracells have waypoint (or only Big Red Zone, I don't remember). People still kill enemies outside zone.

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

26 minutes ago, quxier said:

Why it cannot do this? I think they sort of do this already.

Which do what already? We dont have any spawners, so uhm how do they already do this? Sapwns atm is based on where you are positioned, so if you avoid the bad rooms or bad combinations of rooms things wont spawn in them, but the game itself does nothing to avoid spawning things in connection to those rooms.

I meant that enemies spawn in certain places, like you said in bolded.

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

some not at all and others way too much since they can no longer decide where to fight in order to overcome their limitations or benefit from their strengths.

But they would still be able to e.g. put that Protea/Turret in corridor. Not in 1st rotation then in 2nd. So on and so forth.

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So it wouldnt exactly help you with survival in groups, since chances would be quite high that players would bail after rota A in order to get a new tileset and new spawner roam pattern better suiting for the frame they enjoy. Bad tilesets already lead to early extractions, imagine that with RNG involved aswell.

I wonder how often it happens. I mean, I hate new corpus ship tileset Defense but most of missions are fine. People bail after rotA for many reason like they just need only 1 relic open, they don't know there is another version (e.g. Arcana isolation vault) etc.

19 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

33 minutes ago, quxier said:

Those are different modes...

I mean, there is already a solution to your problem, it's called pre-made groups. So dont shove your "problem" onto solo players that can move to another area if they like.

Pre made groups is not solution. Sometimes you get group in short time and sometimes you just waste time.

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

34 minutes ago, quxier said:

Those are different modes...

Yes, and plenty of them aswell to pick from in order to have the game tell you where to go. No need to add it to survival aswell.

Well, at this point I say we agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Zakkhar]

52 minutes ago, quxier said:

No. It's to force players to move and be around each other, increasing chance of, as name suggest, Survival.

I am not into moving around, but you could force* players to be around each other with the Lantern mechanic from Zelaoid Prelate Assasination. Simply make everything outside certain zone immune to damage. How this zone is designated is up for a discussion. I would not recommend changing existing Survival missions though.

Spoiler

*) there is no real forcing anything really, if someone wants to be away from the group, they will be away from the group. You can just strongly suggest behaviours, not force them. This is not Blackrock

 

Edited June 17 by Zakkhar

[Xaero]

41 minutes ago, quxier said:

Netracells have waypoint (or only Big Red Zone, I don't remember). People still kill enemies outside zone.

Enemies shouldn't spawn outside the zone by your suggestion though?

[Merkranire]

29 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

I am not into moving around, but you could force* players to be around each other with the Lantern mechanic from Zelaoid Prelate Assasination. Simply make everything outside certain zone immune to damage. How this zone is designated is up for a discussion. I would not recommend changing existing Survival missions though.

  Hide contents

*) there is no real forcing anything really, if someone wants to be away from the group, they will be away from the group. You can just strongly suggest behaviours, not force them. This is not Blackrock

 

Now see, that might be an interesting mission modifier!

[Merkranire]

Yesss… the more I think about it, the more I’m intrigued by the lantern idea.

It marries the idea of mobile spawns with sticking to the most mobile player, it enables us to explore and get goodies while forcing players out of their corners, it’s in our control where it goes.

 🤔 The only thing is that a mobile player would have to grab it first, otherwise the whole group gets stuck in a corner. Hmm

edit: Maybe instead of the lantern, it can be a buff or something that jumps between players every minute or so, ensuring that the mobile player will have a chance to get out and bring the others along with them

Edited June 17 by Merkranire

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Xaero said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Netracells have waypoint (or only Big Red Zone, I don't remember). People still kill enemies outside zone.

Enemies shouldn't spawn outside the zone by your suggestion though?

Yes. Maybe some boss type like C.Vor would be exception.

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

No. It's to force players to move and be around each other, increasing chance of, as name suggest, Survival.

I am not into moving around, but you could force* players to be around each other with the Lantern mechanic from Zelaoid Prelate Assasination. Simply make everything outside certain zone immune to damage. How this zone is designated is up for a discussion. I would not recommend changing existing Survival missions though.

But then game can spawn most enemies outside zone making mission almost impossible* to do for longer period of time. That was the main point of my post - to prevent spawn outside players "near" reach so they can get enough life support & void traces**

* impossible as in not running around and opening all containers, breaking all stuff

** void traces could be shared, when you enter mission you get traces already achieved.