Ember feedback. Not good.

[RallyingOx]

DE has been on a long win streak in regards to Warframe buffs and even nerfs, yet I think the Ember buffs are the first time in a while where they've completely missed the mark.

Her whole kit still works against itself and her damage is still terrible and arguably worse now than enemies have more health. Exothermic being an augment and not part of her base kit is also silly however bandaid augments are a standard.

 

With her current state I still can't find any justification for engaging with her mechanics for how annoying and unrewarding they are. I'd still much rather just skip the whole process and rely on shield gating for survivability and replace Immolation with an objectively better ability like Gloom or something that actually solves her issues like Roar.

 

Her whole heat mechanic is so off putting that I'd much rather just play Citrine (who does Ember's mechanics significantly better) and set her energy colour to orange to pretend I'm playing a good and fun version of Ember.

[Ventura_Highway]

Yeah, when I worked with Ember I was trying to be fair, but it was hard to ignore, thinking that I was basically better off playing Gyre if I wanted to take the wizard thing seriously. No gauge to manage, just killing.

With regards to the passive... I guess it's bearable? It doesn't contribute to Ember though, just makes her feel sluggish since I've got to wait for the gauge to fill up before I get the best version of Inferno, and have to turn it off during lulls in the fighting to prevent it from eating the entire gauge. You really could though, yeah, get rid of the gauge, and make Immolation some toggle for DR and Power Strength and no one would really complain I think.

Edited June 19 by Ventura_Highway

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, Ventura_Highway said:

nd have to turn it off during lulls in the fighting to prevent it from eating the entire gauge.

Did they change it and you cannnot dump it with 3 any more?

[Harutomata]

For a supposedly phoenix themed frame, all Ember does is look like a chicken and hump the air like a dog. Which is a shame because Ember is supposed to be THE fire warframe.

First off, her entire kit is missing level scaling damage (and so does many older warframes').
1st ability is a joke because of it, and it could use a special interaction. Maybe combo fireballs could increase in size and explode on impact, of course with not that much base range. Adding some crit interaction per heat affecting the target would also be a fun mechanic with great numbers, though maybe a bit too similar to Gyre's passive.
2nd ability is working against your energy economy and doesn't interact with her kit in a meaningful way, if anything if you subsume off Fire Blast for any reason (mostly if you want to use her 1st augment) then you have to constantly reactivate it for the DR it can give.
3rd ability is like a worse Arson Eximus wave because it was never updated with the new Arson Eximus hitbox. Not a great helminth ability either because of the flat value it has in helminth not affected by ability strength.
4th got nerfed with her rework, so now you have to hump the air in hopes that it might hit something that may or may not be considered out of LOS because of something like a small piece of metal on a tileset. Newer warframe designs makes you want to question why was it even nerfed to this extent in the first place.
I can see why "automated gameplay" was bad, but this is also bad. You effectively have to spam it.

I could also imagine heat ticks being able to crit, chance scaling with some stat, and crits could enhance your next cast, and I don't only mean a change in number, but upgraded visuals and functionality.
Bandaid augments are also a problem. She could probably also use some more baseline team utility.
Just some ideas. There are so many things they could do to make her better.

Edited June 19 by Harutomata

[Ventura_Highway]

1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

Did they change it and you cannnot dump it with 3 any more?

I think you can do that.. although I wouldn't use the word dump because in order to minimize energy expended you'd need to time the Fire Blasts such that your meter was near full every time. It's not dumping if I have to take each bit of trash out one by one by one, carefully. Not sure what the math says, but I found it easier to just wipe the slate clean, reset the Heat increase by turning the passive on and off.

[traybong111]

She really needs some version of Accelerant baked into her kit. Any way for her to scale her heat damage or an innate Augment-free method of manipulating heat damage to her weapons.

She doesn't need to be as busted as Toxic Lash Saryn, but nearly all methods of futureproofing her kit involve some way to let her stack heat damage, because that's always going to be the most direct way to center and scale her elemental damage.

[SteveCutler]

Ember was already fine before this patch. In my opinion, she's been over-buffed and now has a laughably easy energy economy. There's no longer any thought required, and you can just switch off your brain and play with basically infinite energy.

I think the only thing DE really needs to do is explain how the Heat mechanic works better (maybe using the Tips section?), since so many people obviously don't understand it. That's the only reason I can see for why people keep complaining about it, and saying untrue things like that the DR jumps around.

[Ventura_Highway]

52 minutes ago, SteveCutler said:

Ember was already fine before this patch. In my opinion, she's been over-buffed and now has a laughably easy energy economy. There's no longer any thought required, and you can just switch off your brain and play with basically infinite energy.

I think the only thing DE really needs to do is explain how the Heat mechanic works better (maybe using the Tips section?), since so many people obviously don't understand it. That's the only reason I can see for why people keep complaining about it, and saying untrue things like that the DR jumps around.

"No longer any thought required"

Where have you been in the last half or so decade of Warframe? That's like everything.

Having to keep track of two or three raid mechanics, coordinating with my fireteam, while trying not to get oneshot in Destiny 2, yeah that took some thought. Carefully charting out my planned sequence of locations in Noita while trying not to get completely obliterated from an offscreen Ukko, that took some thinking.

There's a DOOM sequel coming up next year, and plenty of games that would qualify as necessitating the firing of neurons but Warframe is not one of them. And that's fine.

Edited June 20 by Ventura_Highway

[SteveCutler]

Sure, I don't disagree. Ember wasn't especially complicated before, and this further dumbing-down is in-line with the rest of the game.

[Waeleto]

The changes definitely didn't hit the mark, She's is still suffering from all the issues she had before

I really don't understand why is there an overheating mechanic for THE heat warframe, you don't see saryn getting sick when her spores grow in numbers

Among the main elements warframes ember is definitely the weakest and needs a much bigger kit overhaul (at the very least inaros level of rework) to be good 

[Ventura_Highway]

4 hours ago, Harutomata said:

For a supposedly phoenix themed frame, all Ember does is look like a chicken and hump the air like a dog. Which is a shame because Ember is supposed to be THE fire warframe.

First off, her entire kit is missing level scaling damage (and so does many older warframes').
1st ability is a joke because of it, and it could use a special interaction. Maybe combo fireballs could increase in size and explode on impact, of course with not that much base range. Adding some crit interaction per heat affecting the target would also be a fun mechanic with great numbers, though maybe a bit too similar to Gyre's passive.

I could also imagine heat ticks being able to crit, chance scaling with some stat, and crits could enhance your next cast, and I don't only mean a change in number, but upgraded visuals and functionality.
Bandaid augments are also a problem. She could probably also use some more baseline team utility.
Just some ideas. There are so many things they could do to make her better.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of having combo fireballs, mostly the part pressing her first ability key over and over. There's a precedent of reworking abilities to avoid having to spam, wearing out the keyboard and the finger. Nekros' Desecrate for instance, used to consume corpses on press as opposed to now where it does so automatically, and I think those are healthy changes provided they don't automate gameplay.

I'd like, personally, to see a frame that embodies the idea of an out of control wildfire, better. I get why World on Fire was removed but the current state of Ember's kit for that is not sufficient.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Not gonna lie, I was really hyped by the Ember rework.

So I played her again.

Mixed and matched mods again, here and there.

As it turns out ...

Yay I don't need to use Fleeting Expertise anymore?

Outside of that, yeah, no. Nothing new around these parts.

All I gained from the rework was a bit of Ability Duration, on a frame that basically doesn't require any more than default.

Ember's state is mostly unchanged :

• Fireball is STILL underwhelming : even though the charge mechanic is gone for good, this ability is still very bad at generating heat procs. It's still just TWO procs per cast, one on the ball making direct contact, and one on the explosion. That is not how to properly make the most out of the Heat status. Heat's entire strength relies on scaling to infinity, not doing a small number of ticks each for huge damage, that's what Slash and other individual DoT procs do. Heat, no matter how many procs of it you deal, will always only tick once a second, dealing damage exponentially as you stack it up. Fireball is bad at its job, because even with 3 tauforged shards of casting speed (so over 100% casting speed), there is still far too much delay between each casts for it to be of any use. Inferno still completely outperforms this ability in every possible way : being better at single target by virtue of costing less energy no matter what, and better at dealing with crowds because it can hit that much more targets at once. Fireball is deadweight no matter what build you run.
• Immolation is STILL an exponential drain with no hardcap on what max value it's allowed to drain per second. The base increment is a lot lower, but it doesn't change the fact that it's an exponential drain. So yes, the drain is not as bad as it once was, but it's still horribly designed. Immolated Radiance still completely sucks and is irrelevant to 2024 Warframe DR% standards. The DR% being lowered to the minimal value everytime you cast Fireblast is still horrible (it even managed to get me killed while my immolation growth rate was insanely high and I was doing good on both Health and Energy), and overall, is still going to be useless if you just rely on only spamming Inferno to do anything.
• Fireblast is the only ability that's been changed in a relevant manner, as its stupidly high energy cost is now reduced the higher your immolation meter is. It's also got better LoS checks now too, and even affects bosses. But guess what? It's still crippled by being tied to Immolation. Wanna abuse that Overguard mechanic? Better be using Immolation to soften the energy cost! Oh wait, DR% doesn't affect Overguard anyway. Turns out all this did was buff my "Nourish over Immolation" build. Also Purifying flames status immunity duration is yet again, something completely irrelevant to 2024 Warframe. Titania's spellbound and Nezha's Fire Walker do this better. Although status cleansing hasn't exactly been much of an issue for people who'd been using Rolling Guard on their every build anyway.
• Inferno is still the singlebuttonframe% that it's been for the past five years. "The Heat damage per second from ring of fire can now trigger Heat Status Effects. " That sounds fine and dandy, until you realize that the ring of fire that Inferno creates has its own load of issue :
  • Huge emphasis on CAN trigger Heat Status Effects. The chance for it to happen is NOT 100%. It seemingly happens in a completely random fashion, having Immolation on or off does NOT influence that.
  • You CANNOT refresh the duration of an Inferno ring. If you've hit an enemy with Inferno once, no matter how hard you spam the ability, no matter if Immolation is on or not, the ring will last exactly the listed duration and dissipate when it expires. Not only does it already still suffers for growing by scaling inversly with duration, it also fails to do the simple task of priming and overloading targets with heat procs.

So going back to my initial statement, what did we gain? Nothing else but less need for efficiency. That's it. Basically nothing more. Inferno ring still completely sucks and Inferno's augment is still nothing more than a bandaid, Immolation is still a mathematical abberation with a still useless augment, Fire Blast's augments (well, one in particular really) is still useless, and Fire Ball is still outright outclassed in every single imaginable way by Inferno spamming.

 

Oh and by the way, flaming rocks from space still are completely out of theme. I'm buying the Heirloom skin. Not for this joke of a rework, but for support towards other Ember enjoyers that made it happen.

[Ventura_Highway]

@Fred_Avant_2019 Well, given the low level of fanfare for these.. really let's just call them tweaks. These tweaks, I'm not surprised they didn't move the needle much. With regards to Fireball though, as I've said in my own writing, that ability is useless, like, by design, it will never matter as it is.

"Deals damage in an area" so does a Tenet Arca Plasmor! Or any half decent Incarnon, really. I would have to go out of my way to make Fireball not get dumpstered by simply shooting the enemy.

Edited June 20 by Ventura_Highway

[Joezone619]

Tried ember out on the new update with the new tweaks, died before anyone could even join. Another frame for the DE's abandonment garage, fits nicely beside limbo and banshee.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 6 heures, Ventura_Highway a dit :

@Fred_Avant_2019 Well, given the low level of fanfare for these.. really let's just call them tweaks. These tweaks, I'm not surprised they didn't move the needle much. With regards to Fireball though, as I've said in my own writing, that ability is useless, like, by design, it will never matter as it is.

"Deals damage in an area" so does a Tenet Arca Plasmor! Or any half decent Incarnon, really. I would have to go out of my way to make Fireball not get dumpstered by simply shooting the enemy.

Well yeah, we're looking at barely 30~40k damage under the best conditions with pitiful status application and very low amount of attacks per second, assuming you have ramped up the combo and maxed immolation. It's fairly decent on paper, but in practice the ability just doesn't cut it. It's a slow projectile that you have zero aim assist on, most of the damage comes from the direct hit, the area of effect being 3m at base is a joke, even a max range setup just barely hits 8 meter radius, which when you consider area of effect weapons with primed firestorm and primed fulmination, is very underwhelming, despite the nerfs.

If Fireball had been able to bounce and explode like a Latron Incarnon projectile, then MAYBE just MAYBE it wouldn't have been a troll ability. Unfortunately, like I said previously, Inferno does everything Fireball does but with less energy consummed, more damage and more range.

 

Maybe go crazy and make the combo reach like some x50. Still going to be Fireball. Still going to be useless.

[MadelnAbyss]

I just tried embers inferno and gun buffer build out and I can say with confidence that the enemy health changes were a massive nerf to her so much so to the point where it's not even funny. Before the update inferno was 2 shotting fully armor stripped eximus bombards with roar. AFTER the update I have to can't inferno over 6 times to even get decent damage. Don't even get me started on corpus she literally tickles them. Even gun buffer ember feels a lot worse then it was. She needs some massive changes. Honestly idk how they are gonna fix her. They might just have to give her accelerant back or something or even make her abilities apply extra heat damage in the same way fired up the sentinel mod does.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Old ember would've been easier to fix than what they've done with the new one in general. Sadly this all is gonna take decades until ember will be at the top again, where she belongs. Not the 0.% usage. Where she currently resides. 

[doc_crazy]

For defensive builds this patch was amazing in my opinion, especially with the status changes and cost reduction. I run Ember with cold elemental ward subsumed over her 1 and the combination of freezing, damage reduction and armor buffs makes her unkillable throughout steel path content while spreading 4 and CC. If you are looking for a fire status themed damage dealer she's not it, but at least this variation is more playable now with the added overguard. Fireball is still subsume though.

Il y a 9 heures, MadelnAbyss a dit :

They might just have to give her accelerant back or something or even make her abilities apply extra heat damage in the same way fired up the sentinel mod does.

Adding something like accelerant to her filled meter would be fun.

[Eyelessmasks]

I might be missing something, but the tweaks didn’t really do anything. If anything she got nerfed thanks to the damage changes while still being extremely energy hungry with zero worthwhile trade off to even bother wasting resources on her.

IMO Ember entire design still feels like it punishes you for playing her, you need immolation up to get the damage reduction expect you get extremely negligible amount of damage reduction and you need to build up the heat meter, problem is that to even build up the heat meter you have to waste absurd amount of energy on her 1 and 4, but even when you finally manage to fill out the heat meter and get that 90% dmg reduction, you then get punished by it starting to drain your energy fast, so you are pretty much forced to use heatwave to stop the energy from going down but that also completely depletes the meter, so you’re just cycling negative modifiers while playing for no real reason since you’re still doing pitiful damage and you’re still going to get one shot anyway.

Even if you bother doing all this her damage is so not even worth acknowledging, after going to extremes like 393% damage her powers are still really underwhelming and don’t keep up with other frames.

It bothers me because from a visual standpoint ember is one of my favorites, but she is so unnecessarily weak and punishing to play.

 

Edited June 22 by Eyelessmasks

[AsffluffyZ]

Plays fine for me. Seems like her playstyle may just not match your taste.

[MadelnAbyss]

Did you even read what anyone said in this post? Its not about playstyle. Ember is objectively worse then she was before this update and this is not an opinion it's a fact. The numbers don't lie.

[spider_enigma]

39 minutes ago, MadelnAbyss said:

Did you even read what anyone said in this post? Its not about playstyle. Ember is objectively worse then she was before this update and this is not an opinion it's a fact. The numbers don't lie.

she got buffed and you said she is worse? how does that make any sense

 

[MadelnAbyss]

Bro please actually read through the forum and you'll understand why I said that she got a nerf. In this update enemy health was buffed massively while enemy armor was lowered and is now at a fixed value. When playing ember the enemies shouldn't have armor regardless because you are ment to cast your 3 to armor strip before casting your 4 so the damage you do would go directly to health. SINCE HEALTH GOT A HUGE BUFF this update and your 4th basically ignores armor Because of your 3, she has to OUTPUT ALOT MORE DAMAGE to make up for that fact. And as I said above BEFORE THE UPDATE :one cast of armor strip and 2 cast of inferno would kill sp bombards very fast. AFTER THE UPDATE: same exact build takes one cast of armor strip and 6 cast of inferno to kill sp bombards. If you still can't understand that this is a nerf after I just broke it down for you to the lowest level possible idk what to tell you. If you just think about it it shouldn't be that hard or a concept to grasp

[crazywolfpusher]

37 minutes ago, spider_enigma said:

she got buffed and you said she is worse? how does that make any sense

 

For newcomers that do a 5min survival she is ok. The QoL were ok, especially the energy reduction on Fireblast. The Overguard wasn't needed but is nice to have. Now to be fair Ember energy problems were non existent once you build 60% Efficiency. You want to spam Inferno the most and none of the changes reduced the energy cost of it, so you still want to have high efficiency making Immolation-Fireblast energy reduction quite irrelevant.

Problem is her damage output remain the same... and it's definitely worse against enemies that got more HP. She cook enemies veeeeery slow. The addition to heat procs on the Ring of Fire help keeping the First big dot of Inferno longer but barely increase the damage since it tickle enemies and need big crowds of enemies to keep the fire going.

 

Of course her damage can be decent abusing Sickening Pulse with -50% Duration. Is definitely better than spamming Inferno, way more energy efficient and doubles the damage per cast. Kinda like Thermal Sunder.

Feels odd... the FIRE frame, overheat and does less damage than Gauss, Protea or even Jade. Why she needs to Overheat? to keep a lame 90% dmg reduction? because other than that, Immolation does nothing.

 

Edited June 22 by crazywolfpusher

[spider_enigma]

57 minutes ago, crazywolfpusher said:

For newcomers that do a 5min survival she is ok. The QoL were ok, especially the energy reduction on Fireblast. The Overguard wasn't needed but is nice to have. Now to be fair Ember energy problems were non existent once you build 60% Efficiency. You want to spam Inferno the most and none of the changes reduced the energy cost of it, so you still want to have high efficiency making Immolation-Fireblast energy reduction quite irrelevant.

Problem is her damage output remain the same... and it's definitely worse against enemies that got more HP. She cook enemies veeeeery slow. The addition to heat procs on the Ring of Fire help keeping the First big dot of Inferno longer but barely increase the damage since it tickle enemies and need big crowds of enemies to keep the fire going.

 

Of course her damage can be decent abusing Sickening Pulse with -50% Duration. Is definitely better than spamming Inferno, way more energy efficient and doubles the damage per cast. Kinda like Thermal Sunder.

Feels odd... the FIRE frame, overheat and does less damage than Gauss, Protea or even Jade. Why she needs to Overheat? to keep a lame 90% dmg reduction? because other than that, Immolation does nothing.

 

i shouldn't have to go ask someone els what ur point is, it should be mentioned in the op