I dislike the new resistances/status/armor rework.

[Merkranire]

3 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Bla bla bla. The options are still there. You know how experiments work in warfame? Google > what damage is the best. Done. Acting like it is any different is silly. What DE did is cut the bloat. Resistances are now consistent, thats all that was changed. You can still do everything you cry about. Did they limit the way you can mod? No. So what is this whole fuss about? That we know what dmg type is good without looking into codex or Wiki? You are so full of yourself that you dont even consider that this information was available all this time, even in game.

I dont understand your problem really. You still can mod however you like, you still can play however you like, the information about resistances was always there. Mods have the same power etc. What was lost is inconsistecy within faction. Nothing more, nothing less.

What was lost was per-mission complexity due to the rock-paper-scissors style of different damage types across the different enemies within the one mission; now everything has been simplified to the equivalent of just equipping faction mods with more steps

I’m aware that all you can do is regurgitate guides that someone else wrote and act like that’s experimenting, and I know that damage types were always on display in-game; any chance I got I would urge someone who didn’t know where to begin to learn to get Simaris’ scanner that could be upgraded to show weaknesses and resistances in-mission as well as to reference the codex if they needed a reminder outside of the mission, because both of those options were so much more digestible than the wiki and so much more pertinent than the esoteric nonsense long-term players would spout as if newbies were going to be jumping into Steel Path straight off the bat.

I know you have no idea why I’m upset because you’re so narrow in your view and ignorant of alternatives outside your own playstyle, which hasn’t stopped you from telling me I’m wrong and that nothing has been lost when I know what the simplification has done even if you know jack S#&$

[RichardKam]

6小时前 , Xzorn 说:

 

I feel majority of players never really pushed to see the difference. Which is kinda DE's fault for keeping players in the max level 100 box.

I like to use Corpus as an example in this regard for the old Damage / Status system.

• Pure Toxic on non Status Weapon.
• Gas Status is obvious. Gas + Cold or Gas + Electric.
• Viral Crit surpasses pure Toxic around level 350 as most enemies had more HP than Shields.
• Viral + Electric for non-Crit weapons.
• Toxic at level 350 range only if the weapon's base Crit Multiplier is x3 or higher.
• Viral + Slash for Corpus under 300 range.
• Pure Physical Slash for Corpus above level 400.

See how versatile damage and status combinations actually were for one faction simply based on the level range and weapon used?
I find the new system so boring by comparison. I used every damage and Status type but Magnetic back in the day.

I am late to the party but your versatile damage and status combinations were almost nothing other than "viral good, slash good", which was not only true for Corpus but also true for Grineer i.e. almost everything in this game. When above level 400 you also put on faction mods.

Or when dealing with entry level SP Corpus everyone was using toxin because, while I am sure "in terms of health to shield ratio and this and that using gas was really the best at this particular level range" was true in MS Excel, no one will bother to mod for that in order to kill something 1 second quicker.

There was a reason why viral slash / HM build was so popular because you can effectively steamroll through the wow so exciting and engaging paper scissor stone system. If you choose to play along with it, yeah I am sure it might be fun, but like Pablo said, almost no one engaged with it.

We have two choices, 1) simplify the damage and resistance system because no one was using it anyway, or 2) exaggerate the damage and resistance system to force people to deal with it. Something like slash deals 0.1x damage to corpus shield. Luckily DE picked the first.

[kuciol]

What complexity you are talking about? That one 1 unit was weak to radiation and everything else to corrosive? That the moment you removed the armor it made 0 difference? That is complexity to you? Give me a break. Its clear to me you just want to feel special and im done. This is just stupid.

[Rexis12]

The funny thing is, the old system idea of complexity was the opposite. As due to the varied systems, you had to effectively mod both your primary and secondary to be the main damage dealers to account for the damage types. 

Which makes the whole 'Primary' and 'Secondary' thing moot. You just had two primary weapons, instead of a primary weapon and a secondary weapon, that you just modded both for damage if you were actually accounting for all of the damage types. 

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

What complexity you are talking about? That one 1 unit was weak to radiation and everything else to corrosive? That the moment you removed the armor it made 0 difference? That is complexity to you? Give me a break. Its clear to me you just want to feel special and im done. This is just stupid.

See, I didn’t think it’d be this hard to point out that alternative playstyles can exist and look different to what you’re used to; it’s fine that you don’t know, but don’t then act like you do when someone says that their playstyle has been dumbed down by a change, especially when it’s referencing a system like the rock-paper-scissors one which is not exactly an uncommon game design concept

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

The funny thing is, the old system idea of complexity was the opposite. As due to the varied systems, you had to effectively mod both your primary and secondary to be the main damage dealers to account for the damage types. 

Which makes the whole 'Primary' and 'Secondary' thing moot. You just had two primary weapons, instead of a primary weapon and a secondary weapon, that you just modded both for damage if you were actually accounting for all of the damage types. 

That's another thing gained with the new system for the people who cared about 100% matching enemy weaknesses.

They can now actually bring along a utility weapon, such as a tome with a bunch of tome mods.
They can now bring along a primer that does some other things to compliment their main damage source.

 

Before if you wanted to account for all of the enemy health types you had to bring along a Primary, Secondary, and Melee all modded with different elements and didn't have any room to actually try a comfort option or a weapon designed primarily around CC or other effects.

If you were playing the Viral/Heat/Slash status you could do that on one weapon to actually kill things and use the other slots for messing around or trying some utility or other effects without impacting your actual killing power.

 

Now the people who jumped through all the hoops to mod all three of their weapons (and the constant upkeep of changing said mods every single mission) to cover all of the health types in a mission can actually get to do what everyone else was doing.

 

Their options for trying things out, for seeing what you can do with some status effects and weapons, have actually increased quite a lot...and yet they try to complain that they "lost" something, even though the only thing that was "lost" was some mechanical bloat that didn't matter to 99% of the playerbase.

And if it didn't matter for 99% of the playerbase, and the only reason that they want to keep it around is because "it was more complex and is something I can lord over other players because I follow a more difficult path in memorizing the complex table", then it should be taken out.

Complexity shouldn't exist purely for the sake of complexity.
If it doesn't have any impact for 99% of the playerbase, makes balancing and other things harder, and is a potential turn off for new players, why keep it around?
It didn't provide any benefit the most players.  It didn't cause them to engage or make decisions on a moment-to-moment basis.  It was just ignored because it didn't matter.

Edited Wednesday at 11:36 AM by Tsukinoki

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Sounds about right. Freakin’ community and their teaching of limited approaches…

I guess at least now you’re exploring, and it sounds like you weren’t stopped in the past outside of just never playing around with it (cold was/is one of my favoured elements)

 

Dont blame the community for an old bad system.

They could have made it good by adopting a BL or Diablo 2 type of system instead. Where you either match damage types in your build, or you end up practically not dealing any damage at all to certain mobs in a mission. You dont slap a pointless optional weakness or resistance onto an enemy and hope people will use it when it practically has zero impact.

Here the only real impact the system had was in specific encounters like Eidolon hunts. Where you could specialize and benefit from it. While also not worrying about having a S#&$ty forced status effect with you because you wanna build towards countering one specific armor type. Same status that made me scream "Noooooooo!" when they revealed Qorvex first passive iteration.

edit: Not to mention half of the old system was also hidden from the game, with zero info about it. I wonder how many have no idea how +, ++ and +++ interacted with armor.

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:05 PM by SneakyErvin

[Merkranire]

23 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Dont blame the community for an old bad system.

They could have made it good by adopting a BL or Diablo 2 type of system instead. Where you either match damage types in your build, or you end up practically not dealing any damage at all to certain mobs in a mission. You dont slap a pointless optional weakness or resistance onto an enemy and hope people will use it when it practically has zero impact.

Here the only real impact the system had was in specific encounters like Eidolon hunts. Where you could specialize and benefit from it. While also not worrying about having a S#&$ty forced status effect with you because you wanna build towards countering one specific armor type. Same status that made me scream "Noooooooo!" when they revealed Qorvex first passive iteration.

edit: Not to mention half of the old system was also hidden from the game, with zero info about it. I wonder how many have no idea how +, ++ and +++ interacted with armor.

 

The old system was fine (even if it could do with some pruning and simplifying and a consistency pass-over), you just never bothered engaging with it the moment you decided to build for higher than the content you were doing and overpower it, and that’s fine too. I’m going to blame the community for being such piss-poor educators though, since they thought that talking all the complicated stuff up was cool or something when all it did was overwhelm

Where you get stupid is when you start asking for the game to take the build that you specifically built with a purpose (in this case simplifying everything into mass slaughter with no concerns), and then undermine it because you think you want some kind of complexity. Because I and a lot of other people are going to get pissed when the effort put into a build in order to do something like overpower everything gets undermined because you can’t figure out what you want

Edited Wednesday at 12:28 PM by Merkranire

[Tsukinoki]

21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: Not to mention half of the old system was also hidden from the game, with zero info about it. I wonder how many have no idea how +, ++ and +++ interacted with armor.

Or the fact that not all +s and -s were the same, meaning two health types with the same "- element" doesn't mean they have the same resistance even though it looks like they should.  And this could throw any math you attempt to do with said armor type quite a bit.

After all, the codex showing Ferrite armor with "Slash -, Blast -, Puncture ++, Corrosive +++" didn't have the same numbers behind the slash or blast...which was just needless complication and obscuring things from the players for no real reason.

I mean DE did generally try to stick to a set amount, but there were a few places where some +s or -s meant less than other +s and -s, and nothing in the game would tell you that.  You just had to look it up in the wiki and memorize those instances.

Edited Wednesday at 12:28 PM by Tsukinoki

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

That's another thing gained with the new system for the people who cared about 100% matching enemy weaknesses.

They can now actually bring along a utility weapon, such as a tome with a bunch of tome mods.
They can now bring along a primer that does some other things to compliment their main damage source.

 

Before if you wanted to account for all of the enemy health types you had to bring along a Primary, Secondary, and Melee all modded with different elements and didn't have any room to actually try a comfort option or a weapon designed primarily around CC or other effects.

If you were playing the Viral/Heat/Slash status you could do that on one weapon to actually kill things and use the other slots for messing around or trying some utility or other effects without impacting your actual killing power.

 

Now the people who jumped through all the hoops to mod all three of their weapons (and the constant upkeep of changing said mods every single mission) to cover all of the health types in a mission can actually get to do what everyone else was doing.

What is this take?

You could do this stuff by just jumping into content that was lower-level because it meant you could ignore the system by overpowering it with higher-level builds, or, in a shocking twist, you could build like other players if you wanted to play like other players.

It wasn’t hard, that’s not the issue

Edited Wednesday at 02:08 PM by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

3 hours ago, Rexis12 said:

The funny thing is, the old system idea of complexity was the opposite. As due to the varied systems, you had to effectively mod both your primary and secondary to be the main damage dealers to account for the damage types. 

Which makes the whole 'Primary' and 'Secondary' thing moot. You just had two primary weapons, instead of a primary weapon and a secondary weapon, that you just modded both for damage if you were actually accounting for all of the damage types. 

I’m not sure I follow.

I could mod my Lex Prime for level 100 and my Kuva Tonkor for level 50, then take them to the same mission and have the secondary be a primary instead…?

[kuciol]

3 hours ago, Merkranire said:

See, I didn’t think it’d be this hard to point out that alternative playstyles can exist and look different to what you’re used to; it’s fine that you don’t know, but don’t then act like you do when someone says that their playstyle has been dumbed down by a change, especially when it’s referencing a system like the rock-paper-scissors one which is not exactly an uncommon game design concept

Yes, yes because i will believe that you swap weapon for single enemy in a group because he happens to have different resistances or when you depleted shields. It didnt work like rock-paper-scissors btw, now it kinda does. If you trully, really happen to play like that than you go against main concept of the game (power fantasy horde shooter) and your opinion should not be taken into account.

Edited Wednesday at 02:50 PM by kuciol

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, RichardKam said:

I am late to the party but your versatile damage and status combinations were almost nothing other than "viral good, slash good", which was not only true for Corpus but also true for Grineer i.e. almost everything in this game. When above level 400 you also put on faction mods.

 

That's not accurate. Slash actually never won in the previous system. Not on any faction.

Viral only worked best for non-Crit Weapons Vs Corpus, CPx4 or non-status Vs Corpus. Gas would often be more ideal.
Against Grineer Corrosive always eventually won Crit or non-Crit.

Against Corpus there were more options like I mentioned. Hunter's Munitions was not great. "Gasp" I know. It just helped weapons that couldn't deal with armor have some leverage. Like Soma. It's strong now because someone had the bright idea to take Viral from x2 to x4.25 damage multiplier.

For Slash to even work you needed a Crit Status weapon with 70%+ Slash Weight. Otherwise Bleed procs just amounted to some extra damage.
These were mostly melee weapons at the time. Pure Elemental usually worked best though. Something they ruined with the new system.

Most the best scaling weapons in the game had nothing to do with Viral or Slash. Torrid, Mutalist Cernos, Original Zarr, Synapse, Strun, Sobek, Marelok, Sicarus Prime, Akstilleto Prime. Most players didn't use melee at higher levels but if you did it would have been Lacera, Serro, PDC, Gazal, Ninkondi and similar. 

You see how all these options depend on the weapon's stats also? They stupefied the system into Viral + Slash.
Near every weapon they made after the changes have both Crit and Status because the system no longer accommodates.

 

Edited Wednesday at 05:01 PM by Xzorn

[Varzin13]

21 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

This actually depends very heavily on the armor. Lighter armors, sure, but historically, hammers were considered preferable to swords against heavily armored opponents, because while the sword will struggle to penetrate metal plates, the concussive force of a hammer will travel right through them.

https://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-weapons/medieval-warhammer/

 

Huh, interesting, point taken. Thanks for the info. 🙂

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb kuciol:

Yes, yes because i will believe that you swap weapon for single enemy in a group because he happens to have different resistances or when you depleted shields. It didnt work like rock-paper-scissors btw, now it kinda does. If you trully, really happen to play like that than you go against main concept of the game (power fantasy horde shooter) and your opinion should not be taken into account.

At least in public this is not necessary, because the enemies are spammed with status effects. Or certain secondary weapons with the Arcane there spams so good that after 2 seconds I see everything under the bar.
And don't forget that people often have Sentinels. they distribute non stop 1-2 + status effects.

And at the moment I play with Magnetic. Works very well. Only with enemies without Shield do I switch to Secondary weapon in front of Primary. Mele with Corr Spam has unfortunately never been needed.

But let's see if something is fixed with the patches ... because advised status effects in the game are unfortunately a lie.

[latetier]

i dont know if this will help the game in the long run or if it will hurt it but what i do know is that warframe just feels a bit off at the moment. they need to tweak some values or something cause everything just feels slightly off after the jade update.

how things were right before the jade update is when the game felt pretty fun to play.

Edited Wednesday at 05:35 PM by latetier

[Venus-Venera]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb latetier:

i dont know if this will help the game in the long run or if it will hurt it but what i do know is that warframe just feels a bit off at the moment. they need to tweak some values or something cause everything just feels slightly off after the jade update.

how things were right before the jade update is when the game felt pretty fun to play.

They are diligently on the bug fixes. Actually, they do a good job when I compare with other projects.
And as I said so often, it is actually only about new content. with something like balance they don't care? I used to read that in an interview.
And as I have already written, their plan does not match reality. So suggest Corr for Greener and in the end Heat dominates with something or just viral.
And I have already found out very strong Faceroll Combos that work all over the SP LVL Cap and that is not viral. Unfortunately, balance is even worse at the moment than before the update.

[kuciol]

33 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

At least in public this is not necessary, because the enemies are spammed with status effects. Or certain secondary weapons with the Arcane there spams so good that after 2 seconds I see everything under the bar.
And don't forget that people often have Sentinels. they distribute non stop 1-2 + status effects.

And at the moment I play with Magnetic. Works very well. Only with enemies without Shield do I switch to Secondary weapon in front of Primary. Mele with Corr Spam has unfortunately never been needed.

But let's see if something is fixed with the patches ... because advised status effects in the game are unfortunately a lie.

I know that but this dude is arguing that this update somehow changed moment to moment gameplay and in mission complexity. Thats just BS. Like heaving 1 enemy within faction with different resistances made so huge difference when everyone and their grandma played around that and didnt care. What was the best is still the best, what was good enough is still good enough. On top of it he is arrogant as hell "you guys dont know, only im the honored one, MUh COmpleXity"

Edited Wednesday at 05:56 PM by kuciol

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb kuciol:

I know that but this dude is arguing that this update somehow changed moment to moment gameplay and in mission complexity. Thats just BS. Like heaving 1 enemy within faction with different resistances made so huge difference when everyone and their grandma played around that and didnt care.

Yes. Some people are so hopeless that saying the truth is simply not worth it. I can speak to my fridge with the same success.
Definitely very good that someone says the truth. Because here a lot of other people read.

[Beowulf22]

I think i'm confused as to why everyone is up in arms. Literally went and tested different factions with new builds and they still perform worse than the age old builds I have been running at 200 SP. Literally it feels as if nothing has changed other than maybe make it easier for early-mid game. IMO they didn't go far enough to make it worth having interesting choices in regards to builds. Make the weaknesses and strengths far more pronounced and give me a reason to use different configs for different factions, especially now that it isn't a pain to swap configs from the star chart menu.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

A casual game has become more casual-friendly thanks to the armor adjustments. Is that better or is that worse? Meh, a majority of veterans won't perceive the difference. Personally, I can't even be bothered with faction damage mods to multi-dip damage because mobs melt quick enough as is.

[Merkranire]

7 hours ago, kuciol said:

Yes, yes because i will believe that you swap weapon for single enemy in a group because he happens to have different resistances or when you depleted shields. It didnt work like rock-paper-scissors btw, now it kinda does. If you trully, really happen to play like that than you go against main concept of the game (power fantasy horde shooter) and your opinion should not be taken into account.

Now it only kind of does when you’re facing multiple factions, which I’m fine with and liked how it was even more apparent because the damage bonuses were larger for the key damage types and enemies were more resistant, which further pushed the concept with more contrast and was applicable to every mission, not just multi faction ones (which added more wrinkles still)

You need to #*!% right off with this “You’re going against the point of the game” nonsense since your idea of powerfantasy horde shooter is so narrow; it was still a powerfantasy horde shooter with wrinkles in the combat and utilising way more of the game’s systems, not whatever you’re thinking it was (which I don’t need to imagine what your perspective is because I periodically dip into how you play and am like “Hmm. Yup, this breaks the game”)

Edited Wednesday at 10:30 PM by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

4 hours ago, kuciol said:

I know that but this dude is arguing that this update somehow changed moment to moment gameplay and in mission complexity. Thats just BS. Like heaving 1 enemy within faction with different resistances made so huge difference when everyone and their grandma played around that and didnt care. What was the best is still the best, what was good enough is still good enough. On top of it he is arrogant as hell "you guys dont know, only im the honored one, MUh COmpleXity"

Allright smartass, how would you deal with someone who’s telling you a thing didn’t play out the way it did, who’s straight up lying about what a thing did or added or how it worked because they don’t know themselves?

Because I’m saying (and have literally said multiple times) it’s fine if you don’t know, but don’t try and act like you do or we’re going to have problems. And yet you insist you know better when you don’t, so since you know better, how about you instead argue from my perspective and we’ll see how you do?

[Beowulf22]

11 hours ago, Merkranire said:

See, I didn’t think it’d be this hard to point out that alternative playstyles can exist and look different to what you’re used to; it’s fine that you don’t know, but don’t then act like you do when someone says that their playstyle has been dumbed down by a change, especially when it’s referencing a system like the rock-paper-scissors one which is not exactly an uncommon game design concept

Can I get clarification on what you mean here. It seems to me that you are arguing that you were able to come up with solutions to problems in a more difficult but ultimately more fun way for you and now are no longer able to do so? I guess my point is the person you replied to in this comment was right, the complexity was all arbitrary in the old system because you were able to go slash viral and effectively steamroll all content in the game no questions asked even with serration instead of faction mods. It honestly still feels that way where you can take viral slash and an armor strip ability and still steamroll pretty much everything. All they did was streamline it so it was easier to come up with alternatives to that if you really wanted too, which I suppose can be upsetting if you took the time to theory-craft builds to avoid the meta.

[Merkranire]

23 minutes ago, Beowulf22 said:

Can I get clarification on what you mean here. It seems to me that you are arguing that you were able to come up with solutions to problems in a more difficult but ultimately more fun way for you and now are no longer able to do so? I guess my point is the person you replied to in this comment was right, the complexity was all arbitrary in the old system because you were able to go slash viral and effectively steamroll all content in the game no questions asked even with serration instead of faction mods. It honestly still feels that way where you can take viral slash and an armor strip ability and still steamroll pretty much everything. All they did was streamline it so it was easier to come up with alternatives to that if you really wanted too, which I suppose can be upsetting if you took the time to theory-craft builds to avoid the meta.

You are correct that I was coming up with solutions that had more wrinkles but were ultimately more fun for it, leveraging the old system’s rock-paper-scissors design to facilitate gameplay that had different scenarios in the one mission that arose due to how it forced me to reconsider what I was hitting an enemy with which had an effect on choosing among my available options I brought and what I could bring to bear within a single fight cluster (or while defending an objective or whatever)

I saw your other post, where you wanted the weaknesses and strengths more pronounced, and that was what the old system was with bonuses that were higher and the resistances straight up existed in the first place; you didn’t need to do crazy min-max maths or anything, just start from the modless baseline and follow the +s and -s in the codex and you’d be fine to engage with some in-mission complexity while minimising the out-of-mission complexity.

And it was optional (even if it opened up more options of gear and build to use, players just weren’t interested in options so it was a non-issue), which I thought was not only great but a strength of this game; not everyone wanted to swap builds around (which it wasn’t a guaranteed thing you’d be swapping builds on a per-mission basis since they could handle a range of content; I just did a lot of the times to mix things up) and not everyone wanted to have bad things happen unless they intertwine the usage of their gear in considered ways. So despite players acting like the system should force them to engage with it, I’m sitting here thinking “Hmmm… are you sure?”

Edited Wednesday at 10:58 PM by Merkranire