I dislike the new resistances/status/armor rework.

[Beowulf22]

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

You are correct that I was coming up with solutions that had more wrinkles but were ultimately more fun for it, leveraging the old system’s rock-paper-scissors design to facilitate gameplay that had different scenarios in the one mission that arose due to how it forced me to reconsider what I was hitting an enemy with which had an effect on choosing among my available options I brought and what I could bring to bear within a single fight cluster (or while defending an objective or whatever)

I saw your other post, where you wanted the weaknesses and strengths more pronounced, and that was what the old system was with bonuses that were higher and the resistances straight up existed in the first place; you didn’t need to do crazy min-max maths or anything, just start from the modless baseline and follow the +s and -s in the codex and you’d be fine to engage with some in-mission complexity while minimising the out-of-mission complexity.

And it was optional, which I thought was not only great but a strength of this game; not everyone wanted to swap builds around (which it wasn’t a guaranteed thing you’d be swapping builds on a per-mission basis since they could handle a range of content; I just did a lot of the times to mix things up) and not everyone wanted to have bad things happen unless they intertwine the usage of their gear in considered ways. So despite players acting like the system should force them to engage with it, I’m sitting here thinking “Hmmm… are you sure?”

I see what you're saying, however I'm not fully sure I agree in regards to the rock-paper-scissor combat. Maybe if viral/slash weren't so strong that it steamrolled all content with ease with armor stripping abilities.  At least in the late game where I can just, fly through the air with a bramma or shoot a phenmor down a hallway or use a strun incarnon to demolish everything it didn't seem to matter what element I was using because one size fit all. I think if they make these changes more pronounced you can definitely get that rock-paper-scissors feel where you need to change your build depending on the faction otherwise its just not optimal. I also think the amount of *useful* mods for weapons is limited which is why you see the same mods for most builds. I think it will be hard to find a NEED be creative in both the old system and this one if you still always run cookie cutter 60/60 mods and stuff like that. Ultimately, you never needed to be creative with your builds, you chose too out of fun but it was never a necessity and probably more often than not inefficient which is fine. I'd honestly want to see a push in both changing existing mods and enhancing these changes to create a modding system worth playing with.

[Merkranire]

45 minutes ago, Beowulf22 said:

I see what you're saying, however I'm not fully sure I agree in regards to the rock-paper-scissor combat. Maybe if viral/slash weren't so strong that it steamrolled all content with ease with armor stripping abilities.  At least in the late game where I can just, fly through the air with a bramma or shoot a phenmor down a hallway or use a strun incarnon to demolish everything it didn't seem to matter what element I was using because one size fit all. I think if they make these changes more pronounced you can definitely get that rock-paper-scissors feel where you need to change your build depending on the faction otherwise its just not optimal. I also think the amount of *useful* mods for weapons is limited which is why you see the same mods for most builds. I think it will be hard to find a NEED be creative in both the old system and this one if you still always run cookie cutter 60/60 mods and stuff like that. Ultimately, you never needed to be creative with your builds, you chose too out of fun but it was never a necessity and probably more often than not inefficient which is fine. I'd honestly want to see a push in both changing existing mods and enhancing these changes to create a modding system worth playing with.

Not… sure what you’re not fully agreeing with regarding the RPS system; if it’s that it was optional instead of optimal, I agree with you (to an extent).

I don’t think there should be a need, and that it should be an option as defined by the player, otherwise players will just complain and I’d be pretty pissed myself if I just didn’t feel like dealing with the game but it forced me to; as it stood(and still stands), you didn’t need to engage with the system if you didn’t want to be any sort of creative, and if you wanted to be more creative, the system originally rewarded you with not only more engaging fights, but more options to consider worth using, which it still does now but to a lesser extent when it comes to the engaging fights part. Particularly as the modless baseline represents the broadest canvas for building, and the game spreads its rewards across a variety of levels of content from like level 15 onwards that don’t always ask for all the damage, leaving room for alternative customisation when doing something like a level 100 Sortie or a level 60 Arbitration instead of 9999 SP, which are still relevant if not for the build and gameplay options they enable, at least for the rewards they hold

Edited Wednesday at 11:51 PM by Merkranire

[Rexis12]

13 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I’m not sure I follow.

I could mod my Lex Prime for level 100 and my Kuva Tonkor for level 50, then take them to the same mission and have the secondary be a primary instead…?

It's remarkably simple. 

The old system, especially the more enemies scale, meant that you were basically locked into having two primary weapons. Especially for the 'enlightened' ones that 'played with the system'. 

 

[Merkranire]

10 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

It's remarkably simple. 

The old system, especially the more enemies scale, meant that you were basically locked into having two primary weapons. Especially for the 'enlightened' ones that 'played with the system'. 

 

I’m not sure I follow.

It’s not like we’re forced into highest-level content outside of periodically dipping into it when most of the game’s optione are obtainable outside of the modes (where players were just using whatever ways they could avoid engaging with the system anyways, bypassing damage types in favour of convoluted status builds that matched well with Steel Path’s design of being for players who enjoyed min-maxing themselves out of any considered game design), and there’s a whole range of content that both enabled engaging with the system or not engaging with the system depending on how one built.

Engaging with the system was an option that most players happily narrowed their choices to avoid, and this was a problem because….?

Edited Thursday at 03:16 AM by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

14 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

It's remarkably simple. 

The old system, especially the more enemies scale, meant that you were basically locked into having two primary weapons. Especially for the 'enlightened' ones that 'played with the system'. 

 

Are you saying that there’s some kind of distinction between primary and secondary?

What would that be, when we can modify either of them to the point that the line is thoroughly blurred? We get different choices across the two, but they’re extremely customiseable and can be made very distinctive or very similar

Edited Thursday at 03:20 AM by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

30 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

It's remarkably simple. 

The old system, especially the more enemies scale, meant that you were basically locked into having two primary weapons. Especially for the 'enlightened' ones that 'played with the system'. 

 

🤔 Are you actually positing the question of what makes a primary and what makes a secondary?

Because I find that an interesting concept, where some of my thinking and actions as I customised my builds and gameplay may have accidentally aligned with the idea, though since I was more concerned with what the thing did instead of whether it’s meant to be a primary secondary

[Rexis12]

29 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Engaging with the system was an option that most players happily narrowed their choices

Engaging the system resulted in narrowed choices my man. 

Engaging in the system meant that you couldn't use utility mods as you had to mod both of them for damage. 

23 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

What would that be, when we can modify either of them to the point that the line is thoroughly blurred?

Yes that's the issue. 

I'm glad you noticed that blurring the lines between a weapon meant for primary damage and a weapon meant for secondary functions, resulted in a homogenous mess especially with the old system making it so that 'engaging' in the system actively limited the functionality of the weapons. 

 

[RichardKam]

11小时前 , Xzorn 说:

 

That's not accurate. Slash actually never won in the previous system. Not on any faction.

Viral only worked best for non-Crit Weapons Vs Corpus, CPx4 or non-status Vs Corpus. Gas would often be more ideal.
Against Grineer Corrosive always eventually won Crit or non-Crit.

Against Corpus there were more options like I mentioned. Hunter's Munitions was not great. "Gasp" I know. It just helped weapons that couldn't deal with armor have some leverage. Like Soma. It's strong now because someone had the bright idea to take Viral from x2 to x4.25 damage multiplier.

For Slash to even work you needed a Crit Status weapon with 70%+ Slash Weight. Otherwise Bleed procs just amounted to some extra damage.
These were mostly melee weapons at the time. Pure Elemental usually worked best though. Something they ruined with the new system.

Most the best scaling weapons in the game had nothing to do with Viral or Slash. Torrid, Mutalist Cernos, Original Zarr, Synapse, Strun, Sobek, Marelok, Sicarus Prime, Akstilleto Prime. Most players didn't use melee at higher levels but if you did it would have been Lacera, Serro, PDC, Gazal, Ninkondi and similar. 

You see how all these options depend on the weapon's stats also? They stupefied the system into Viral + Slash.
Near every weapon they made after the changes have both Crit and Status because the system no longer accommodates.

 

I don't know what game you were playing but I am pretty sure that was not Warframe.

"Slash never won on any faction" lol. Serro was the best at higher levels lmao. For the love of Orokin, please.

[Merkranire]

5 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

Engaging the system resulted in narrowed choices my man. 

Engaging in the system meant that you couldn't use utility mods as you had to mod both of them for damage. 

Yes that's the issue. 

I'm glad you noticed that blurring the lines between a weapon meant for primary damage and a weapon meant for secondary functions, resulted in a homogenous mess especially with the old system making it so that 'engaging' in the system actively limited the functionality of the weapons. 

 

What is this idea that I didn’t also have the options that you did, when I had those, and more options and had more ways to use them when I engaged in the old system? And then if I wanted to… use the gear you’re talking about in the ways you’re referring to, I’d just shift the level of content I’m doing or build like players are already building to do what you’re describing?

Intrinsically the weapons would already be designed (I could only assume) with a primary/secondary consideration, and then given to us to modify; I don’t like homogeneousation, as I’ve been arguing for less of it, so I’d build the gear different to what you would do, either enhancing the different aspects or shifting its role entirely while I redesigned the other pieces of kit to preserve differences that became more apparent in-mission

Homogenisation is more your bag, since you’re trying to equally kill everything the same way

[Merkranire]

27 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

Engaging the system resulted in narrowed choices my man. 

Engaging in the system meant that you couldn't use utility mods as you had to mod both of them for damage. 

Yes that's the issue. 

I'm glad you noticed that blurring the lines between a weapon meant for primary damage and a weapon meant for secondary functions, resulted in a homogenous mess especially with the old system making it so that 'engaging' in the system actively limited the functionality of the weapons. 

 

I think the problem here is that you hear “Can customise so it can be different or similar” and assume the default is similar

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

I don't know what game you were playing but I am pretty sure that was not Warframe.

"Slash never won on any faction" lol. Serro was the best at higher levels lmao. For the love of Orokin, please.

 

It's not too hard to understand.

Original Slash did 35% of base weapon damage in 7 ticks for a total of 245% base damage over 6 seconds. A weapon modded for 90% + 60/60x2 which was fairly normal back then would do base damage * 210%. Say you have 100 un-modded base damage and it's one of the very few weapons with 70% base Slash weight like Tigris Prime otherwise there wouldn't be anything to compare anyways since the Slash triggers wouldn't even come close.

So 100 + Primed Point Blank. (100 * (1 + 1.65) = 265. Your bleed damage after all ticks is (265 * (0.35 * 7) = 649. Lets give it a perfect old Viral status and double the damage for 1,298 per proc. Now lets compare the 90% + 60/60x2. We already know 265 is the modded base value so add Elemental (265 * (1 + 0.9 + 0.6 +0.6) = 821 Elemental Damage. 265 + 821 = 1,086. This looks favorable for Viral Slash but... We haven't done status weight yet.

Lets say it's 100% status chance to keep things simple. You have magic Viral Shotgun with the absolute highest base Slash weight on guns of 90% But you added Viral so you're not going to proc Slash 90%. With old Physical at x3 weight that works in favor of Slash weight. You're looking at a split of 795 Slash and 583 Viral weight. Just nearly cut that Slash weight in half. Total status weight for Slash is now 795/1378 = 0.577. Apply that to the perfect Viral Slash damage and you get (1,298 * 0.577) = 749 total Bleed damage per hit. Meanwhile Corrosive doesn't care about that.

The more you shoot. The more Armor you strip and the more of your full damage goes through. Thus Corrosive eventually always wins as I said. Even after setting up the perfect situation for Bleeds to do their best and I didn't even count the Bleed damage for Corrosive using a similar weapon.

____________________________

As for Serro it's a similar situation. Pure Corrosive procs. It's very easy to amp damage with frame abilities but not so much status. Throw old Saryn Spores Viral proc. Add Nova M.Prime which are multiplicative so x4 damage. Thanks to pure Corrosive procs you strip armor in a second and the damage amps do the rest.

I was very intimate with the original Damage 2.0 system.

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Merkranire said:

The old system was fine (even if it could do with some pruning and simplifying and a consistency pass-over), you just never bothered engaging with it the moment you decided to build for higher than the content you were doing and overpower it, and that’s fine too. I’m going to blame the community for being such piss-poor educators though, since they thought that talking all the complicated stuff up was cool or something when all it did was overwhelm

Where you get stupid is when you start asking for the game to take the build that you specifically built with a purpose (in this case simplifying everything into mass slaughter with no concerns), and then undermine it because you think you want some kind of complexity. Because I and a lot of other people are going to get pissed when the effort put into a build in order to do something like overpower everything gets undermined because you can’t figure out what you want

But I did engage with it early on and there was never a reason to use it. Since there has always been a way to cover a whole faction or most of one instead of covering 1 or 2 specific mobs within the faction. With the current implementation we are better of overall, since far more elements became useful, so freedom to build has gotten wider.

I have no clue what you try to say in paragraph two.

13 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Now it only kind of does when you’re facing multiple factions, which I’m fine with and liked how it was even more apparent because the damage bonuses were larger for the key damage types and enemies were more resistant, which further pushed the concept with more contrast and was applicable to every mission, not just multi faction ones (which added more wrinkles still)

That isnt really true. Right now you face overall more resistance, since it no longer has a range, it is set based on the faction and is 50%. So more reason to avoid a damage type the enemies is resistant to since everyone is resistant to it. As opposed to before when a couple of mobs had high resistance to something, often something not really you'd care about eitherway. Now heat for instance is neutral to grineer overall, but versus Kuva Grineer it has a 50% penalty.

It is applicable just the same now as it was before, because a map with grineer would have the same resistances and weakness no matter the sub faction. Now you have different resistances between HGs depending on where you meet them. Regular is neutral, CHG is resistant to Rad and KHG is resistant to heat for instance. And this applies to all other units aswell of the base faction when you move onto sub factions. And for the Orokin aswell as Narmer it also shakes up the vulnerabilities.

 

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But I did engage with it early on and there was never a reason to use it. Since there has always been a way to cover a whole faction or most of one instead of covering 1 or 2 specific mobs within the faction. With the current implementation we are better of overall, since far more elements became useful, so freedom to build has gotten wider.

I have no clue what you try to say in paragraph two.

That isnt really true. Right now you face overall more resistance, since it no longer has a range, it is set based on the faction and is 50%. So more reason to avoid a damage type the enemies is resistant to since everyone is resistant to it. As opposed to before when a couple of mobs had high resistance to something, often something not really you'd care about eitherway. Now heat for instance is neutral to grineer overall, but versus Kuva Grineer it has a 50% penalty.

It is applicable just the same now as it was before, because a map with grineer would have the same resistances and weakness no matter the sub faction. Now you have different resistances between HGs depending on where you meet them. Regular is neutral, CHG is resistant to Rad and KHG is resistant to heat for instance. And this applies to all other units aswell of the base faction when you move onto sub factions. And for the Orokin aswell as Narmer it also shakes up the vulnerabilities.

 

Swing and a miss

You… do know what’s different about a whole mission having the same weaknesses and resistances, and a mission with different weaknesses and resistances spread across the different enemies, right?

And I’m not talking about trying to force you to engage with it either, since you’ve got no interest and that’s fine

Edited Thursday at 02:15 PM by Merkranire

[Lord_Drod]

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

It's not too hard to understand.

Original Slash did 35% of base weapon damage in 7 ticks for a total of 245% base damage over 6 seconds. A weapon modded for 90% + 60/60x2 which was fairly normal back then would do base damage * 210%. Say you have 100 un-modded base damage and it's one of the very few weapons with 70% base Slash weight like Tigris Prime otherwise there wouldn't be anything to compare anyways since the Slash triggers wouldn't even come close.

So 100 + Primed Point Blank. (100 * (1 + 1.65) = 265. Your bleed damage after all ticks is (265 * (0.35 * 7) = 649. Lets give it a perfect old Viral status and double the damage for 1,298 per proc. Now lets compare the 90% + 60/60x2. We already know 265 is the modded base value so add Elemental (265 * (1 + 0.9 + 0.6 +0.6) = 821 Elemental Damage. 265 + 821 = 1,086. This looks favorable for Viral Slash but... We haven't done status weight yet.

Lets say it's 100% status chance to keep things simple. You have magic Viral Shotgun with the absolute highest base Slash weight on guns of 90% But you added Viral so you're not going to proc Slash 90%. With old Physical at x3 weight that works in favor of Slash weight. You're looking at a split of 795 Slash and 583 Viral weight. Just nearly cut that Slash weight in half. Total status weight for Slash is now 795/1378 = 0.577. Apply that to the perfect Viral Slash damage and you get (1,298 * 0.577) = 749 total Bleed damage per hit. Meanwhile Corrosive doesn't care about that.

The more you shoot. The more Armor you strip and the more of your full damage goes through. Thus Corrosive eventually always wins as I said. Even after setting up the perfect situation for Bleeds to do their best and I didn't even count the Bleed damage for Corrosive using a similar weapon.

____________________________

As for Serro it's a similar situation. Pure Corrosive procs. It's very easy to amp damage with frame abilities but not so much status. Throw old Saryn Spores Viral proc. Add Nova M.Prime which are multiplicative so x4 damage. Thanks to pure Corrosive procs you strip armor in a second and the damage amps do the rest.

I was very intimate with the original Damage 2.0 system.

Aren't you talking about pre corrosive nerf before viral became top and Richard is referring to the most recent period before this latest status rework?

[Lord_Drod]

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

It's not too hard to understand.

Original Slash did 35% of base weapon damage in 7 ticks for a total of 245% base damage over 6 seconds. A weapon modded for 90% + 60/60x2 which was fairly normal back then would do base damage * 210%. Say you have 100 un-modded base damage and it's one of the very few weapons with 70% base Slash weight like Tigris Prime otherwise there wouldn't be anything to compare anyways since the Slash triggers wouldn't even come close.

So 100 + Primed Point Blank. (100 * (1 + 1.65) = 265. Your bleed damage after all ticks is (265 * (0.35 * 7) = 649. Lets give it a perfect old Viral status and double the damage for 1,298 per proc. Now lets compare the 90% + 60/60x2. We already know 265 is the modded base value so add Elemental (265 * (1 + 0.9 + 0.6 +0.6) = 821 Elemental Damage. 265 + 821 = 1,086. This looks favorable for Viral Slash but... We haven't done status weight yet.

Lets say it's 100% status chance to keep things simple. You have magic Viral Shotgun with the absolute highest base Slash weight on guns of 90% But you added Viral so you're not going to proc Slash 90%. With old Physical at x3 weight that works in favor of Slash weight. You're looking at a split of 795 Slash and 583 Viral weight. Just nearly cut that Slash weight in half. Total status weight for Slash is now 795/1378 = 0.577. Apply that to the perfect Viral Slash damage and you get (1,298 * 0.577) = 749 total Bleed damage per hit. Meanwhile Corrosive doesn't care about that.

The more you shoot. The more Armor you strip and the more of your full damage goes through. Thus Corrosive eventually always wins as I said. Even after setting up the perfect situation for Bleeds to do their best and I didn't even count the Bleed damage for Corrosive using a similar weapon.

____________________________

As for Serro it's a similar situation. Pure Corrosive procs. It's very easy to amp damage with frame abilities but not so much status. Throw old Saryn Spores Viral proc. Add Nova M.Prime which are multiplicative so x4 damage. Thanks to pure Corrosive procs you strip armor in a second and the damage amps do the rest.

I was very intimate with the original Damage 2.0 system.

Aren't you talking about pre corrosive nerf before viral became top and Richard is referring to the most recent period before this latest status rework?

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Lord_Drod said:

Aren't you talking about pre corrosive nerf before viral became top and Richard is referring to the most recent period before this latest status rework?

 

Dunno. I was talking to someone else originally. Pretty sure I made it clear I was talking about the old damage / status system.
Talking about Gas, Viral, etx it's not like I was talking about Damage 1.0.

I figured we were both on the same page because it was a common misconception at the time that Viral + Slash was the best because of the level 100 box I mentioned. DE kept players in this box for most of original damage 2.0. On it's release the same rules applied just at much lower levels. Years of power creep later with no enemy level increase and it obviously stopped working correctly.

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Swing and a miss

You… do know what’s different about a whole mission having the same weaknesses and resistances, and a mission with different weaknesses and resistances spread across the different enemies, right?

And I’m not talking about trying to force you to engage with it either, since you’ve got no interest and that’s fine

Yes, seperate enemies (unless bosses) makes it completely pointless, since you practically will build for what you face most. And if you have 2 options that already also counter those specific mobs there is no reason to mod for them individually. Like with Grineer in the old system, why ever build to counter either Ferrite or Alloy when you can remove it or target the health directly, which applies to heavies and light units all the same? While also not locking you out of far more useful statuses in combination with those elements.

If we constantly faced bosses it would be a completely different story, but WF isnt a boss hunting game for the most part.

[TARINunit9]

On 2024-06-24 at 4:22 PM, ominumi said:

Viral used to deal half the current health every second for 6 second regardless of armor or shields

One of us is misremembering, because the way I remember Original Viral was "reduce the enemy's max HP and current HP by 50% of the values they were before the viral proc." There were some nuances where refreshing the viral proc could prevent the current HP from going back up to its old value when the procs wore off, but my point is: the way you phrased it implies the viral proc itself would instantly kill the enemy after two tics, which was not the case

[Merkranire]

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes, seperate enemies (unless bosses) makes it completely pointless, since you practically will build for what you face most. And if you have 2 options that already also counter those specific mobs there is no reason to mod for them individually. Like with Grineer in the old system, why ever build to counter either Ferrite or Alloy when you can remove it or target the health directly, which applies to heavies and light units all the same? While also not locking you out of far more useful statuses in combination with those elements.

If we constantly faced bosses it would be a completely different story, but WF isnt a boss hunting game for the most part.

Not… sure you’ve grasped what the concept is when the idea is that you don’t build for one and expect it to work as effectively for the other, and it played out as such when working with the system instead of doing things like building higher than the content you’re doing (which understandably would blow any game’s attempts at game mechanics out of the water)

But you do seem to have some notion, shaky as it is, that it can be worth considering as a way to mix up gameplay.

 

So now the particularly tricky part (and I’m still not sure how this is so tricky to grasp); Hypothetically (though I’m not lacking, either), I’ve got every single modless piece of kit that sits at roughly level 20-30 (give or take 7ish levels) for the vast majority, every single mod, every single arcane, every single companion and school and level and content, whatever the game gives us to mix together in whatever ways we desire

I’m not forced into Limbo for defense, I’m not forced into having two mod slots free to customise my gear because the rest of them are taken up by “Mandatory mods”, I’m not forced into certain weapons or schools or anything, the only thing limiting me is whether I can make a thing work the way I want it to for the content I’m doing, and within that framework, I have every build and combination of everything to draw upon.

Now, within that range of options lies whatever you do, whatever combinations you make, and I have access to those options as well as any other options for gameplay customisation, and I draw from every option (including yours) and use them as I see fit.

So knowing I can use your options and play like you do, and knowing what kind of gameplay your choices result in, can you imagine a case where I would want to play like you, and a case where I wouldn’t want to play like you? Remember, you told me multiple times that you love being as efficient as possible with the grind, which I understand, but I’m also aware of what that entails in terms of variety of gameplay and useable options

Edited Saturday at 12:55 AM by Merkranire

[ominumi]

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

One of us is misremembering, because the way I remember Original Viral was "reduce the enemy's max HP and current HP by 50% of the values they were before the viral proc." There were some nuances where refreshing the viral proc could prevent the current HP from going back up to its old value when the procs wore off, but my point is: the way you phrased it implies the viral proc itself would instantly kill the enemy after two tics, which was not the case

Viral cuts current health in half. From 100 to 50 to 25 so on and so forth. Viral procs can't kill enemy units this way. Slash was needed for the finishing blow.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, ominumi said:

Viral cuts current health in half. From 100 to 50 to 25 so on and so forth. Viral procs can't kill enemy units this way. Slash was needed for the finishing blow.

I personally remember it only happening once. From 100 to 50, then back to 100 after 6 seconds, with each successive proc just refreshing the 6 second timer

At least that's how it worked for players. I don't exactly have an old build to check if it worked that way for enemies 

[Darlf]

what i feel is lack of that hp, armors types. like it was kinda nice mechanic when if you destry shilds them you need have other damage for hp or if it was special  corups unit even for armor and them hp, it sometime was good to leave enemy arrmor and it can be much popularan now when enemy have armor cap.  if DE want make things more easy thme why not delete that just resistance ? and make weaknes betwen x1.5-x2  thme they can just balance things by making all tenno stuff do -10% damage to see do it all work better.  warframe is easy whne coem to killign enemy so in the end most player end up using bad damage typ but still do damage and others just max builds to kill way to many enemy in one shot.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Darlf:

what i feel is lack of that hp, armors types. like it was kinda nice mechanic when if you destry shilds them you need have other damage for hp or if it was special  corups unit even for armor and them hp, it sometime was good to leave enemy arrmor and it can be much popularan now when enemy have armor cap.  if DE want make things more easy thme why not delete that just resistance ? and make weaknes betwen x1.5-x2  thme they can just balance things by making all tenno stuff do -10% damage to see do it all work better.  warframe is easy whne coem to killign enemy so in the end most player end up using bad damage typ but still do damage and others just max builds to kill way to many enemy in one shot.

That's exactly why feedback from devs is needed. Because what do they want to achieve? Why are there incorrect status suggestions for greener etc.? So they thought of one thing and programmed another?

If they wanted a similar gameplay to Chroma and Profit-Taker Orb, then it would have been the case a long time ago! Because many people run with viral+heat and sentinel also has 2 status effects and then with elec arcane or low crit mele with duplicate, which can distribute other status effects?

And it was definitely only tested very superficially. Because not only are the status suggestions wrong, but low damage weapons are now at an even greater disadvantage. Because slash and armor reduction had very good scaling. But with health scaling you have to do damage and viral hardly does anything for low damage weapons!

[kuciol]

8 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

That's exactly why feedback from devs is needed. Because what do they want to achieve? Why are there incorrect status suggestions for greener etc.? So they thought of one thing and programmed another?

If they wanted a similar gameplay to Chroma and Profit-Taker Orb, then it would have been the case a long time ago! Because many people run with viral+heat and sentinel also has 2 status effects and then with elec arcane or low crit mele with duplicate, which can distribute other status effects?

And it was definitely only tested very superficially. Because not only are the status suggestions wrong, but low damage weapons are now at an even greater disadvantage. Because slash and armor reduction had very good scaling. But with health scaling you have to do damage and viral hardly does anything for low damage weapons!

Its not status sugestions, its dmg type sugestions. Two very different and distinct things.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Not… sure you’ve grasped what the concept is when the idea is that you don’t build for one and expect it to work as effectively for the other, and it played out as such when working with the system instead of doing things like building higher than the content you’re doing (which understandably would blow any game’s attempts at game mechanics out of the water)

But you do seem to have some notion, shaky as it is, that it can be worth considering as a way to mix up gameplay.

The concept is perfectly clear it just didint provide an actual benefit in WF hence why it was bad. It was effectively bad no matter your level since there was always a better solution to the problem at hand i.e a more universal damage type. Except as I said versus solo encounters. When there is a system in place that wants you to build for specific encounters, it shouldnt come out worse when doing so, which is what the system did.

There were several issues with the system. To many health types per mission, heavy units not actually being worth to build against with a damage type and thirdly modding limitations, as in picking one element locks you out from another combination even though we are limited by mod slots already. This results in it being even more counter productive to match a damage type under the old system.

15 hours ago, Merkranire said:

So now the particularly tricky part (and I’m still not sure how this is so tricky to grasp); Hypothetically (though I’m not lacking, either), I’ve got every single modless piece of kit that sits at roughly level 20-30 (give or take 7ish levels) for the vast majority, every single mod, every single arcane, every single companion and school and level and content, whatever the game gives us to mix together in whatever ways we desire

I’m not forced into Limbo for defense, I’m not forced into having two mod slots free to customise my gear because the rest of them are taken up by “Mandatory mods”, I’m not forced into certain weapons or schools or anything, the only thing limiting me is whether I can make a thing work the way I want it to for the content I’m doing, and within that framework, I have every build and combination of everything to draw upon.

Now, within that range of options lies whatever you do, whatever combinations you make, and I have access to those options as well as any other options for gameplay customisation, and I draw from every option (including yours) and use them as I see fit.

So knowing I can use your options and play like you do, and knowing what kind of gameplay your choices result in, can you imagine a case where I would want to play like you, and a case where I wouldn’t want to play like you? Remember, you told me multiple times that you love being as efficient as possible with the grind, which I understand, but I’m also aware of what that entails in terms of variety of gameplay and useable options

What on earth does any of this have to do with the subject of the damage system? Can you try and stay on subject and not fall back to your idea of fun?