Incarnon charging with headshots simply dosen't makes sense or work on some weapons

[Void2258]

Some weapons simply do not work charging just from headshots. As an example, it's possible to empty the magazine of the Strun or Boar at point blank range dead center into the head and not even reach 1/4 charge. Low charge amount per pellet and inherent spread seem to result in next to no charge accumulation. Not everything can or should charge using headshots, something that was acknowledged for the Torid and Angstum but seems to be actively resisted in nearly all other cases.

The following weapons should charge differently:

• Boar/Strun/Bronco/Felarx: Number of pellets on ANY target on ANY location. Shotguns are inherently imprecise and inherently meant to hit large groups or full bodies.
• Gorgon/Soma: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. Meant to spray across a group, not for precision targeting.
• Miter: Body shots. It's a saw blade launcher, and you need to hold it for a bit which is not great for precision on moving targets. You are aiming to slice people in half.
• Atomos: number of targets chained. It's not a precision weapon
• Gamacor: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. It's meant to spray in a direction, not for precision targeting.

Also, due to the kind of fire the incarnon mode puts out, the Atomos, Gamacor, Zylock, Vasto, Kunai, and Despair would work better as charged alt fires (ie like the entrati weapons) than as mode swaps. It's better to be shooting the normal form most of the time and OCCASIONALLY fire the incarnon shot when needed than either/or. As it is, with the exception of the Kunai and Despair, it's better not to bother mode changing these weapons in general as the normal fire is more applicable in most cases (Kunai and Despair are wasteful when used against non-ideal targets, while the others are actively hampered). (The Felarx would also be better this way, but due to the radical nature of its change this would probably be unworkable.)

Additionally, not every melee weapon is meant to light attack and gain high combo, so having them all change at 6X combo (without perk, which only lowers it to 3X combo still needing light attack spam) is not great for those that prefer to spam slams or heavy attacks.

Edited July 30 by Void2258

[BoruBoru]

2 hours ago, Void2258 said:

it's possible to empty the magazine of the Strun or Boar at point blank range dead center into the head and not even reach 1/4 charge

It's because enemy you shooting doesnt have enough hp to tank all pellets i think that's easy to understand.

Entire post feels like a cope because you can't hit headshots?? Come on dude that's not a reason to change anything lol

Edited July 30 by BoruBoru

[Void2258]

As per usual, first commenter is "ignore point of post, tell player to git gud".

a) tested in simulacrum with SP enemies so no enemies not dying easily.

b) Not everything in the game SHOULD be about headshots. Freaking SHOTGUNS are not supposed to need headshots. You explicitly pull out shotguns when you don't want to have to aim much.

Edited July 30 by Void2258

[BoruBoru]

2 hours ago, Void2258 said:

ignore point of post

Ye well entire point of the post is YOU having problems with incarnons?

 

 

2 hours ago, Void2258 said:

tested in simulacrum with SP enemies so no enemies not dying easily

...good one?
 

 

2 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Not everything in the game SHOULD be about headshots

Yeah well game is a shooter, shooter games are about...shooting? So yeah it always was is and will be about headshots.

 

2 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Freaking SHOTGUNS are not supposed to need headshots.

You just want to shot enemies and get incarnons for literally 0 effort? Getting headshots is pretty much bottom of the barrel aswell so no idea what the problem is.
 

 

6 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Miter: Body shots. It's a saw blade launcher, and you need to hold it for a bit which is not great for precision on moving targets.

It has headshot multiplier therefore it can hit headshots, again you just want it easier for no reason. Warframe has no logic its a shooter game thats supposed to be fun not logical. You have weapons that shot nukes and whatnot.
 

 

6 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Gorgon/Soma: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. Meant to spray across a group, not for precision targeting.

You just want it easier for no reason.
 

 

6 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Atomos: number of targets chained. It's not a precision weapon

It has a headshot multiplier and it can hit headshots for bonus damage. Yes it is a precision weapon.

 

6 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Gamacor: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. It's meant to spray in a direction, not for precision targeting.

It is a beam that can hit headshots and gets bonus damage from hitting headshots. You just want it easier for no reason/some personal reason again.

 

6 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Additionally, not every melee weapon is meant to light attack and gain high combo, so having them all change at 6X combo (without perk, which only lowers it to 3X combo still needing light attack spam) is not great for those that prefer to spam slams or heavy attacks.

You can build every single melee for a combo build. So just change your build, make it hybrid and it's gonna be infinitely better considering heavy attack damage scales with combo multiplier. *Also melee crescendo exists

Edited July 30 by BoruBoru

[Crisp]

6 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Some weapons simply do not work charging just from headshots. As an example, it's possible to empty the magazine of the Strun or Boar at point blank range dead center into the head and not even reach 1/4 charge. Low charge amount per pellet and inherent spread seem to result in next to no charge accumulation. Not everything can or should charge using headshots, something that was acknowledged for the Torid and Angstum but seems to be actively resisted in nearly all other cases.

The following weapons should charge differently:

• Boar/Strun/Bronco/Felarx: Number of pellets on ANY target on ANY location. Shotguns are inherently imprecise and inherently meant to hit large groups or full bodies.
• Gorgon/Soma: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. Meant to spray across a group, not for precision targeting.
• Miter: Body shots. It's a saw blade launcher, and you need to hold it for a bit which is not great for precision on moving targets. You are aiming to slice people in half.
• Atomos: number of targets chained. It's not a precision weapon
• Gamacor: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. It's meant to spray in a direction, not for precision targeting.

Also, due to the kind of fire the incarnon mode puts out, the Atomos, Gamacor, Zylock, Vasto, Kunai, and Despair would work better as charged alt fires (ie like the entrati weapons) than as mode swaps. It's better to be shooting the normal form most of the time and OCCASIONALLY fire the incarnon shot when needed than either/or. As it is, with the exception of the Kunai and Despair, it's better not to bother mode changing these weapons in general as the normal fire is more applicable in most cases (Kunai and Despair are wasteful when used against non-ideal targets, while the others are actively hampered). (The Felarx would also be better this way, but due to the radical nature of its change this would probably be unworkable.)

Additionally, not every melee weapon is meant to light attack and gain high combo, so having them all change at 6X combo (without perk, which only lowers it to 3X combo still needing light attack spam) is not great for those that prefer to spam slams or heavy attacks.

Aiming for the head is advantageous in almost every single shooter game and this is not an exception so i don't know what are you trying to say here, It could be a cool gimmick but it being headshots is way more simple and way more appealing for mass amount of players because its just common knowledge in gaming at this point that you get rewarded for it instead of just swiping your mouse left to right for it.

The entire argument about "not getting charge for incarnon" is completely wrong because i can confidently tell you that from past knowledge and just now after going into simalacrum most of the shotguns except the bronco, which is understandable because its supposed to be a close range secondary similar to the rest of the shotgun type secondaries, gain both charge and can in-fact hit a headshot properly to gain said charge for Incarnon, with the Strun non incarnon even 2 tapping 225 Exo and Corrupted Gunners as a benchmark from around 60meters away, and thats basically limited by how big the simalacrum area is, no buffs or anything which honestly is unrealistic in an actual game scenario. Incarnon charge you get is affected by enemy level as well so maybe you were going up against some low tier units or possibly even levels. shotguns have so many pellets in the first place that aiming anywhere in a general neck/head region will almost always hit *some* pellets on the head.

Gorgon/Soma: I have nothing to add but to refer to my previous point about headshots. and i dont think it would be very exciting or interesting at all if i could charge my incarnon by swiping left to right so i can do the same thing again but with the incarnon buffs

Miter: body shots could be cool but the incarnon form or the normal form by itself doesn't encourage this kind of playstyle so you would need to possibly rework the evolutions to support this by actually giving the weapon proper amounts of punch thru for this to work. A single charged headshot basically charges the incarnon weapon to full to almost any SP enemy even on star chart average levels so you can definitely gain charge on it

Atomos/Gammacor: Your suggestion is just plain dumb because it always will chain the same amount of enemies it doesn't increase with the amount of enemies you have nearby. Should you have a disadvantage because the enemies didn't group up properly or you aren't using a grouping ability when using the weapon?

As for the Zylok, Kunai, Despair changes for it to be just an alt fire, its a decent concept because most of these weapons incarnon forms charge very quick but also expire very quickly so u have to sit thru the entire animation to fire 2 shots and convert it back, i feel like it would need some very serious rebalancing for the stats these weapons get from it because i can tell you straight up the vasto incarnon would be even more stupid against the demolysts or any enemy actually if u had a 0 second delay between the main and alt fire as you could just constantly spam it.

[Tiltskillet]

I don't mind the headshot requirement, but many of the numbers don't make a lot of sense.  Like Burston Prime getting 30 charges per headshot and Bronco Prime getting 0.5.  Like, WTF?  Anybody who has used both weapons knows the Burston is at least 10x easier than Bronco to charge up against tough enemies, and probably 100x easier against weak ones.

I'm also not against a separate body shot Incarnon mechanic on top of that, although if it happens I'd like it to be low enough that going for headshots still make a lot of sense.

6 hours ago, Void2258 said:

Miter: Body shots. It's a saw blade launcher, and you need to hold it for a bit which is not great for precision on moving targets. You are aiming to slice people in half.

If you're trying to fill up the Miter's Incarnon, it's completely counterproductive to use charged shots.  Tap and release.  It's one of the easiest Incarnon meters to fill IMO. 

I don't really understand singling the Soma out either.  Accurate, hitscan, low damage, high RoF, and pretty generous Incarnon meter efficiency: very easy to work with.

Edited July 30 by Tiltskillet

[BoruBoru]

On 2024-07-30 at 9:45 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Like Burston Prime getting 30 charges per headshot and Bronco Prime getting 0.5.  Like, WTF?

You trolling right? Do you know how much ammo burston's incarnon has(600) and how much bronco has(20)? What are you even talking about?
You want burston to get 2 charge per hit or what because i don't understand your logic.

You talking about stuff making no sense also making no sense yourself. IT'S A VIDEO GAME NOTHING HAS TO MAKE SENSE.
Tell me 1 thing. What do you want? How do you want it changed? Because so far you just complain about nothing and offer no solutions.
ONLY problem i have is angstrun incarnon which requires headshot because well, it's angstrun and charging should be changed to hits overall not headshots considering how angstrun works.

[Pakaku]

Incarnons encourage skilled shooting, and you can make headshots pretty easily with any of those weapons, regardless of whether they’re spray or shotguns or otherwise. In this case it really is a matter of getting good

Edited August 1 by Pakaku

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, BoruBoru said:

You trolling right? Do you know how much ammo burston's incarnon has(600) and how much bronco has(20)?

And yet  that's  another disadvantage for the latter.  At base Burston has 30s of sustained fire in Incarnon form, and Bronco less than 7s. 

And it will take much longer to charge up in regular form.  After innate multi it spits out about 3x the pellets the Burston does per second, but gets only 1/60 of the charges from headshots.   Leaving aside the fact that Bronco's shots have huge spread, making it very difficult to land headshots with every pellet.  (If the target even survives for all of them to register.)

1 hour ago, BoruBoru said:

You talking about stuff making no sense also making no sense yourself. IT'S A VIDEO GAME NOTHING HAS TO MAKE SENSE.

Disagree.

1 hour ago, BoruBoru said:

Tell me 1 thing. What do you want? How do you want it changed? Because so far you just complain about nothing and offer no solutions.

Well because I'm not sure. I can see there is too much disparity between Incarnon charging on various weapons, but how to best address this is complicated...and not my job.  Which is a good thing, because I'd be bad at it.

My general idea though is that (particularly since the change that stopped most charging on overkilled corpses) that multishot seems to be given too much weight in DE's charging efficiency considerations.   And accuracy and shooting uptime not enough.   And that's without even getting into the imbalances between how effective these weapons are in general.

2 hours ago, BoruBoru said:

ONLY problem i have is angstrun incarnon which requires headshot because well, it's angstrun and charging should be changed to hits overall not headshots considering how angstrun works.

Incarnon Angstrum was changed to only require direct hits and not headshots about a year ago.  But I suppose they shouldn't have wasted their time fixing that because IT'S A VIDEO GAME NOTHING HAS TO MAKE SENSE. :P

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Le 30/07/2024 à 18:53, Void2258 a dit :

Not everything in the game SHOULD be about headshots. Freaking SHOTGUNS are not supposed to need headshots. You explicitly pull out shotguns when you don't want to have to aim much.

Worst take ever.

 

If you can aim at something's weakspot for extra damage, you always should. It doesn't matter what you're using. Landing headshot is always beneficial, and even more so on weaponry that has both high critical chance and critical damage due to how the maths work for this game, with all the layers of multipliers that interact with each other. And outside the Exergis, Felarx, Phantasma and base Sobek which all have pretty low interest for crits, all the other shotguns in this game have very good critical stats. And that's only assuming you're using a critless version of the Felarx (yes I know people hate to be reminded that it's not the only way to build it).

With Cold and Puncture procs becoming more valuable, crit chance and crit damage can be artificially boosted. Which, again by virtue of maths and multipliers interacting the way they do, incentivizes landing headshots even more, by making them more potent and easier to land (because of Cold procs fully freezing).

 

Besides, all this argument of being forced to headshot for incarnon charging doesn't even make sense. The mode swap makes it so these weapons only reach their full potential if you're not goofing around shooting walls. They came out at a time where AoE meta was still a thing, and aimed to changed that, so we would do something else than shooting the floor with a Bramma. Eventually, we did. Improvements to headshot damage multipliers solidified this even more, but nerf to explosive weapons' ammo made sure to enforce this.

 

Torid Incarnon is unquestionably a mistake and would definitely deserve a nerf, but every other Incarnon weapon has a clear justification in requiring headshot to attain the "full power" mode. Angstrum would be its own can of worm, but its base firing mode being so bad keeps it so irrelevant outside of Incarnon form that it's fair for it to not require headshots. Everything else being hitscan or having fast projectiles means it's on you to make an effort to land it. The Boar is arguably even more obnoxious than Torid Incarnon because it automatically locks onto enemies by default, but thankfully, it's held back by being hard to fully charge. And it also has ammo issues (read : it doesn't have literal infinite ammo like Torid does) so you can't go mess around missing your shots too much with it.

 

Having to charge these weapons is part of the flair. Just like it is for the Entrati weapons. Wouldn't make sense to have 200 Trumna balls to juggle with for free all the time (unless you're Zephyr haha funni memes), these weapons are no different from that. Some stronger than others. And that much is fine. Get over it.

[Pakaku]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

My general idea though is that (particularly since the change that stopped most charging on overkilled corpses) that multishot seems to be given too much weight in DE's charging efficiency considerations.

I have a Miter riven with multishot, and that thing can be fully charged in about two or even just one lucky headshot, so... saying multishot is too heavily weighted is a bit of an understatement

[Tiltskillet]

50 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

I have a Miter riven with multishot, and that thing can be fully charged in about two or even just one lucky headshot, so... saying multishot is too heavily weighted is a bit of an understatement

I really meant innate multishot.  And in the sense that I think DE put too much value into it when deciding on Incarnon charge efficiency.  Which became really obvious after the fix to overkill charging that came post release.

I have similar experiences with Miter by the way.

[Venus-Venera]

Am 30.7.2024 um 15:09 schrieb Void2258:

Some weapons simply do not work charging just from headshots. As an example, it's possible to empty the magazine of the Strun or Boar at point blank range dead center into the head and not even reach 1/4 charge. Low charge amount per pellet and inherent spread seem to result in next to no charge accumulation. Not everything can or should charge using headshots, something that was acknowledged for the Torid and Angstum but seems to be actively resisted in nearly all other cases.

The following weapons should charge differently:

• Boar/Strun/Bronco/Felarx: Number of pellets on ANY target on ANY location. Shotguns are inherently imprecise and inherently meant to hit large groups or full bodies.
• Gorgon/Soma: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. Meant to spray across a group, not for precision targeting.
• Miter: Body shots. It's a saw blade launcher, and you need to hold it for a bit which is not great for precision on moving targets. You are aiming to slice people in half.
• Atomos: number of targets chained. It's not a precision weapon
• Gamacor: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. It's meant to spray in a direction, not for precision targeting.

Also, due to the kind of fire the incarnon mode puts out, the Atomos, Gamacor, Zylock, Vasto, Kunai, and Despair would work better as charged alt fires (ie like the entrati weapons) than as mode swaps. It's better to be shooting the normal form most of the time and OCCASIONALLY fire the incarnon shot when needed than either/or. As it is, with the exception of the Kunai and Despair, it's better not to bother mode changing these weapons in general as the normal fire is more applicable in most cases (Kunai and Despair are wasteful when used against non-ideal targets, while the others are actively hampered). (The Felarx would also be better this way, but due to the radical nature of its change this would probably be unworkable.)

Additionally, not every melee weapon is meant to light attack and gain high combo, so having them all change at 6X combo (without perk, which only lowers it to 3X combo still needing light attack spam) is not great for those that prefer to spam slams or heavy attacks.

the display is still buggy and I often can't see when the thing is loaded. there are several topics about that.

and unfortunately incarnon weapons are usually very bad. I kill 3x or so more enemies in public when I switch from torid to acceltra. simply because I shoot non-stop. and headshot charge only works in solo, because enemies often run in different directions and not facing me.

the only thing I liked is latron. because with fire rate toggle in options, you can even use it for normal missions and incarnon has enough ammo for aoe.

but then I just take harrow with trumna and will regularly clear the rooms with 1-3 mil aoe crits with very big rage thanks to the mod. so why the hell does anyone need incarnon when it can be so much easier?

I also often and really enjoy testing and seeing if I can get any new information. And then I saw a video about laetum... supposedly a top 10 weapon. And then the joker plays solo sp void ani and says that the weapon is very difficult to load, but incarnon is super mega ultra great?!?! And then incarnon form only lasts a few seconds??? And in public there is probably no incarnon charge at all because it is almost impossible to land enough headshots????
But too many people just believe in some nonsense and don't test anything themselves... That's why there are these miserable builds in overframe at number 1 and a lot of misinformation...

[Azamagon]

I think a simple Incarnon tweak could go a long way to make more of them useable:

• Headshots - Same as now
• Bodyshots - Grants roughly 1/6th of Incarnon charge compared to headshots.
  • Shotguns can get 1/4th, due to their spread.
  • Slow-firing projectile weapons (like Bows) could get 1/5th on bodyshots.

With that, I think we'd see more varied Incarnons used in pubs, rather than just Torid, Torid and more Torid.

 

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Bodyshots - Grants roughly 1/6th of Incarnon charge compared to headshots.

• Shotguns can get 1/4th, due to their spread.

 

Which in the context of Torid and Angstrum seems very reasonable.  But to me these suggestions look too generous, at least for weapons capable of spray and pray.  And for shotguns due to innate multi.

I guess I'd (very hesitantly) venture 1/10 or 1/12 as a starting point.  With some review of the other individual charge economy numbers.

 

[Azamagon]

34 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Which in the context of Torid and Angstrum seems very reasonable.  But to me these suggestions look too generous, at least for weapons capable of spray and pray.  And for shotguns due to innate multi.

I guess I'd (very hesitantly) venture 1/10 or 1/12 as a starting point.  With some review of the other individual charge economy numbers.

 

Yeah, it'd simply need testing in regards to numbers.

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

I see the problem you are getting at but your explaination of it is lacking.
Frequent Strunner here. 1 headshot loads about 60% given target doesnt die from singular pellet.

And this is the problem. You cant build charge on dead bodies, even if the shot was perfectly precise all the extra multishot is being wasted. Solution to this is either loading Strun with electricity, toxin or heat since Corrosive will straight up shred armor to bits instantly resulting in premature expiration of newly acquired host.

Spread allows for "pray and spray" tactics, so the point is invalid here. Pt is necessary in this regard. 

Body shots loading at least a little would be a good solution. Then again you are forgetting the fact, unloaded incarnons are STILL a far superior alternative to anything out there. Use both, if you cant pick something else.

[(XBOX)JustYamsz]

Yikes. Half the people here are completely ignoring or missing the point. Instead going off talking about you're killing too fast (even tho you're not even killing the enemy lol),or get good 🤦🏻

Edited August 30 by (XBOX)JustYamsz

[Zakkhar]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)JustYamsz said:

instead going off talking about you're killing too fast, even tho you're clearly saying you're emptying the entire clip point black to the skull and getting next to no charge vs higher level enemies.

The bug has nothing to do with speed of kiilling. What we observe is a fix in action that was supposed to prevent players from getting a charge by headshotting dead enemies. What happens with classic shotguns is that if you kill a target in your first shot, none of the headshots register, regardless how many flechettes/pellets it took to kill the target. It acts as if you shot the dead enemy with every pellet in your attack.

Very baffling indeed.

Edited August 30 by Zakkhar

[Zakkhar]

On 2024-07-30 at 3:09 PM, Void2258 said:

The following weapons should charge differently:

• Boar/Strun/Bronco/Felarx: Number of pellets on ANY target on ANY location. Shotguns are inherently imprecise and inherently meant to hit large groups or full bodies.

That is why they are meant to be used in close quarters. That may be how they are used IRL, but not in games. In games you sneak on the enemy and shot them point blank in the face.

On 2024-07-30 at 3:09 PM, Void2258 said:

Gorgon/Soma: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. Meant to spray across a group, not for precision targeting.

I just straight disagree with your interpretation, since I have no idea where it comes from as both Soma and Gorgon have Accuracy on High and player maximising DPS will always aim for headshots with weapons that have the headshot multiplier.

On 2024-07-30 at 3:09 PM, Void2258 said:

Atomos: number of targets chained. It's not a precision weapon

But it is. It is so accurate that equipping negative accuracy mod (Magnum Force) on it has close to zero impact. Any player maximising dps will aim for headshots if headshot multiplier is obtainable. With chaining weapons even more so because initial headshot also chains to headshots.

On 2024-07-30 at 3:09 PM, Void2258 said:

Gamacor: number of distinct targets hit or body shots. It's meant to spray in a direction, not for precision targeting.

That is where you are wrong. SImilar case as Atomos. Any player maximising dps will aim for headshots if headshot multiplier is obtainable.