Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[RichardKam]

39分钟前 , dwqrf 说:

I didn't say they don't mod their warframe. I said the ability without any mod and any level still has a great impact in the normal star chart. A lot of people don't get out of the normal star chart and still have a lot of fun with the tools they have. Not everybody need to sink thousand of hours into a game to enjoy it

To supplement, DE balance their game around normal star chart. They never balance around SP.

Weapon arcanes and adaptors, which are OP for normal star chart, are purchasable by steel essence, which is exclusive to SP.

Galvanized mods, which are also OP for nornal star chart, are locked behind arbitration, which requires the completion of nornal star chart i.e. you should be SP ready.

And for incarnon, again obtainable from SP only. Zariman as well, but they are behind TNW and stuff and I won't consider them "normal" star chart (new normal?). The same goes for Albercht lab.

Overall DE still adheres to the separation of normal and SP star chart. Using SP builds and power level on normal star chart and say the game is "imbalance" is a bit unfair.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Yes, it was highly hypothetical. Players that would buy Caliban and won't even mod could still do big damage in the star chart. Sorry if that's confusing you, English isn't my native language and expressing it isn't always flowing as I would like it to. It's about expressing that even unmodded frame can still use spells to do stuff in star chart. I'm not suggesting that players won't mod anything. I was just trying to talk about flat numbers with the only context of star chart enemies ; nothing else.

 

The meaning you're claiming and the meaning you gave are far enough apart that I'm not comfortable taking this as a simple miscommunication.

The whole claim is that the main demographic of the Warframe playerbase plays without mods on some level. Even if that is to say without specifically modding abilities, that's still a big claim that's not been substantiated.

8 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But you did add the synergy with both supposing the presence of spores and the flat +200% damage from viral ignoring the ramping up factor. So you biased your argument.
 

Because that's the context that Miasma is a popular ability in.

If the question is 'why is Miasma a super popular damage ability and Fusion Strike isn't', then the context of the kit its used in matters. And even giving Fusion Strike the benefit of a prior cast of Sentient Wrath, that only increases its damage by 35%.

15 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But I said many time that Caliban, from the point of view of endgame, isn't a damage frame or a spell caster for that matter. I said he was only a weapon plateforme using debuff, and it happens that his abilities also do damage, which is completely irrelevant compared the to ulility provided. But if you don't take in the context of endgame, then new players reading his skill and using it normal star chart, even unmodded, while still do evident damage as the ability says.

Then A: the problem that Caliban's abilities communicate one function but do another is still there and B: I ask again, why would you design an ability to be used for something entirely different in endgame compared to early game? 

17 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

But taking into account all possible synergies ; defense strip is a huge amount of dps increase for all sources. It's not because the ability doesn't do damage itself that it doesn't allow damage. Like Miasma doing viral status and being multiplied by Spores. But Miasma alone doesnt do sh*t.

That's kind of just describing the problem that ability damage is extremely out of balance with everything else to the point where it isn't valuable.

[dwqrf]

il y a 7 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

The meaning you're claiming and the meaning you gave are far enough apart that I'm not comfortable taking this as a simple miscommunication.

The whole claim is that the main demographic of the Warframe playerbase plays without mods on some level. Even if that is to say without specifically modding abilities, that's still a big claim that's not been substantiated.

Well, that's the point of a conversation. I say stuff, you don't understand, you ask me to clarify, I rephrase it and we both understand. If you are not comfortable with it, don't engage in communication.

I've never said the main demographic of Warframe doesn't mod. I'm saying that things works in the normal star chart even without modding. And truth is, a lot of new players don't mod correctly, effectively running around with sometimes things which can be considered unmodded ; and that's the case at all the level of the game.
 

il y a 10 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

If the question is 'why is Miasma a super popular damage ability and Fusion Strike isn't', then the context of the kit its used in matters.

Fusion Strike has been considered by a lot of people as the strongest defense strip in game. You are just riding the Caliban hate train without even thinking.
 

il y a 11 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Then A: the problem that Caliban's abilities communicate one function

Ok : let me give you a description :

"The ***** is reliable, versatile, and deadly."

Which weapon is that ?






 

[dwqrf]

il y a 14 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

B: I ask again, why would you design an ability to be used for something entirely different in endgame compared to early game?

It's not. Fusion strike do straight up damage versus enemies that don't have a big armor scaling in star chart ; and still is a deadly tool against enemies with defense scaling. It's not my fault you are trying to press 4 multiple time in a row trying to kill things without understanding how it's improving your damage. People like you would spam Miasma without spores and wonder why they don't do damage.

 

il y a 16 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

That's kind of just describing the problem that ability damage is extremely out of balance with everything else to the point where it isn't valuable.

Strip defense and multiplicative damage is valuable. It's sad you can't see it.

[Loza03]

4 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Well, that's the point of a conversation. I say stuff, you don't understand, you ask me to clarify, I rephrase it and we both understand. If you are not comfortable with it, don't engage in communication.

I've never said the main demographic of Warframe doesn't mod. I'm saying that things works in the normal star chart even without modding. And truth is, a lot of new players don't mod correctly, effectively running around with sometimes things which can be considered unmodded ; and that's the case at all the level of the game

I asked you for a source, and now you can't provide a source so you're backtracking and trying to claim that you said something else, which doesn't match any reasonable intepretation of your words. Especially considering that the point of 'things work in the normal star chart without modding' was also a distinct point you made in the same post.

7 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Fusion Strike has been considered by a lot of people as the strongest defense strip in game. You are just riding the Caliban hate train without even thinking.

I'm not complaining about its defense strip capabilities. I'm pointing out that a giant laser beam and an explosion communicates that it's a damage ability, not a debuff ability.

9 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Ok : let me give you a description :

"The ***** is reliable, versatile, and deadly."

Which weapon is that ?

First of all, 'Non-Verbally and Non-Textually'. A weapon's description is a pretty minor factor, if it's one at all.

And to extend that, I don't know off the top of my head (given the literal hundreds of item descriptions), but I'm comfy with my odds that there's no confusion as to whether the weapon's main purpose is to do damage.

9 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

It's not. Fusion strike do straight up damage versus enemies that don't have a big armor scaling in star chart ; and still is a deadly tool against enemies with defense scaling. It's not my fault you are trying to press 4 multiple time in a row trying to kill things without understanding how it's improving your damage. People like you would spam Miasma without spores and wonder why they don't do damage.

Do you want me to link you to a thread I created where one of the points of discussion is this exact concept?

Because I made one of those. I don't stand by everything I said in them (particularly the nitty-gritty details), I've learned a lot about game design and the whole thread itself was a good learning experience. Let me know if you'd like the link.

But anyway, point is I'm well aware armour scaling is one of the... let's call it 'quirks' of Warframe's design, and to DE's credit since that thread (though certainly not because of it) they've made some pretty good improvements, though I still think there's a way to go.

24 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Strip defense and multiplicative damage is valuable. It's sad you can't see it.

Where the hell in that quoted section did I say that?

[MrInubis]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I've already explained the difference between marketing and design communication. These are different concepts. 

But to consider: if the intention is for players to not use these abilities to do damage as a primary purpose... why do they do damage at all? Doesn't that just confuse the design? Especially the 'on higher levels' qualifier - why would you design a core system (abilities) to have an entirely different role in one part of the game than another, without any changes to the core functionality of that ability?

 

Why design abilities to be able to kill at low levels, but not high levels?

They say it that way because it sound cool, thats all there is to it so it is marketing. You can see such way of expalining abilities in other games too. You CAN do dmg with them at early stages of the game, later on weapons should take priority. Doesnt mean its optimal or even should. Some abilities do dmg only to alert enemies. Good example of that would be Ophanim eyes. Some abilities are meant to kill and they do nothing but dmg, some even have augments to change them for that purpose (like Nezhas 4 for example) but they are minority. Why do that you ask? Thats design decision made by DE. You use abilities to enchance the combat not them being the main tool. 

Edited August 29 by kuciol

[Varzin13]

I'm not really interested in getting into an argument over this but I'd like to add my take.

Part of what I like about WF is that I can enjoy it with minimal to moderate effort. I feel like a lot of modern games have gotten into this rut of always making things super difficult just because Dark Souls did it and everyone loves Dark Souls so that must be what everyone wants. Frankly I'm getting tired of it. Not everything has to be a sweaty give-it-your-all experience to be enjoyable.

I also want to point out what I'm sure others have already stated. There does come a time in every game where you get so good at it that the entire game feels easy, not because it actually is but because you've put the time and effort into learning the game, practicing it's mechanics, and acquiring power (abilities, resources, etc) enough that you can tackle anything the game throws at you. Yes, this can essentially put you in a position where you're too good at the game to actually enjoy it anymore. I know that can be disappointing but nothing lasts forever. You can optimize your way out of having fun.

All in all, different strokes for different folks. I have to imagine that most people pick up and play WF for what it is, not what they wish it could be. If you don't like what WF is then maybe it's just not for you. That's not meant as an insult, there are dozens of games I look at and think "man I wish I enjoyed that game more, it would be so much more fun if..." etc etc. And I don't think it's wrong to voice your opinions about what you think should change about a game you love, in this particular case I simply disagree.

[dwqrf]

il y a 18 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

I asked you for a source, and now you can't provide a source so you're backtracking and trying to claim that you said something else, which doesn't match any reasonable intepretation of your words. Especially considering that the point of 'things work in the normal star chart without modding' was also a distinct point you made in the same post.

Yeah, I realize now you make a hyper-fixation on the "no mod" part, when the whole thing I said was about 50-150h players playing in regular star chart, which was my claim which is research online. I did not ever look for a pool of how modded are players in these levels. Only from experience, some people are nicely modded, some not at all, and even then, it wouldn't matter much.
 

il y a 21 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

I'm not complaining about its defense strip capabilities. I'm pointing out that a giant laser beam and an explosion communicates that it's a damage ability, not a debuff ability

Still enables damage in every situation. You know, sunlight doesn't really hurt on impact, but radiation exposure does. Are you an expert of how sentient work in depth ?
 

il y a 22 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

 

 

And to extend that, I don't know off the top of my head (given the literal hundreds of item descriptions), but I'm comfy with my odds that there's no confusion as to whether the weapon's main purpose is to do damage.

It said Versatile, Reliable, and Deadly. It was the MK1-Strun.
 

il y a une heure, Loza03 a dit :

That's kind of just describing the problem that ability damage is extremely out of balance with everything else to the point where it isn't valuable.

Some abilities do damage ; Some can scale, some don't. At some point, the damage portion becomes irrelevant. AT SOME POINT. So then, it's not about damage but about additionnel effect. Wisp motes at first is strong because it gives flat health+regen ; but later in the game, speed and fire rate has much more value. And even further, the simple stun effect has the most value. It's all about context, not number.

Spells are designed to be able to seem effective to new player with damage at first, in normal star chart, so that even without a perfect modding, they can make use of it. But then, for veterans, spells also needs some advanced mecanics that can tackle down the issue we face in endgame. But they can't bloat every ability with moar damage and call it a day.

[MrInubis]

Let me just ask you this. If any AoE skill could kill everything easily than why would you ever use a weapon? The way it is now you use both.

[dwqrf]

il y a 19 minutes, Varzin13 a dit :

I'm not really interested in getting into an argument
[...]
Not everything has to be a sweaty give-it-your-all experience to be enjoyable.
[...]
Yes, this can essentially put you in a position where you're too good at the game to actually enjoy it anymore. I know that can be disappointing but nothing lasts forever.
[...]
I have to imagine that most people pick up and play WF for what it is, not what they wish it could be. If you don't like what WF is then maybe it's just not for you.
[...]
And I don't think it's wrong to voice your opinions about what you think should change about a game you love, in this particular case I simply disagree.

How dare you come into this great topic with so much logic and love for reality. Don't you get it ? You are actively stopping people to enjoy their idea of the game with such mentality ! Shame ! Now, it's all your fault too if they can't have fun.

[4thBro]

4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

It has been proven that people suffering from narcissictic disorder don't fit the definition of humans. They don't have a shred of empathy, and no purpose on earth. Google it, it's common knowledge. Sadly, as I can see now, you cannot fight each other because none of you can parasite the shallow argument of the other, so you have nothing to feed on. I'm disapointed, it would have been so funny to see two things that can't admit being ever wrong and can't ever accept defeat, struggle with one another. So no, you don't have a soul to save, you are a lost cause. Keep trying to get my attention, little piece of dust. I've seen buzzing flies with more value in the ecosystem.
 

"If you’ve been in contact with a narcissistic pervert, remember that if he’s chosen you, it’s because you represent to him what he’ll never be able to be: a whole person!"

Back to the mute forever list.

@vixenpixel

I'm literally using you for a second to get under this guy's skin. (Sorry, not sorry.)

You're a grill, and he treated you differently the moment you jumped in, and he enjoys pretending like he's the Hero in front of you. But he thinks you're gone now, and he is letting his true colors show once more.

So I'm just curious how he'll act with me pinging you. 👨‍🔬

 

 

Don't worry though, I won't ping you again. I played the card, it's in the discard pile now.

[4thBro]

41 minutes ago, Varzin13 said:

All in all, different strokes for different folks. I have to imagine that most people pick up and play WF for what it is, not what they wish it could be. If you don't like what WF is then maybe it's just not for you. That's not meant as an insult, there are dozens of games I look at and think "man I wish I enjoyed that game more, it would be so much more fun if..." etc etc. And I don't think it's wrong to voice your opinions about what you think should change about a game you love, in this particular case I simply disagree.

Good post.

 

And for what it's worth, I myself have indeed not loaded up the game in a while now. I could do with more Archon Shards, but I can't be bothered to do my weeklies for them. Because there's nothing to... use them for once I get them. I mean, yes, I could put them in some Frames. But why?

 

We're trying to say that this game needs a "why."

We believe there are many ways to add a "why" for this group of players without getting in the way of the other groups of players.

But yes. Ultimately, the game is whatever it may or may not be right now in this moment. And, as a result, I myself haven't played it in a while, and I'm sure many others fit that description as well. And MOST of them won't even be here on the forums to express that notion, just by nature of... them not playing anymore.

 

So, you know what I'm saying?

It was never about "we can't accept the game how it is," or whatever. We're just voicing our opinions on what DE could do to simply increase their playerbase, and thus their incoming money. And, in the meantime, we're probably not playing the game. And if DE is happy with that, then they can make their choice accordingly. And if they aren't satisfied with that as their choice, then they are free to make the opposite one.

 

 

 

 

And at that, I'm going into popcorn mode again. God knows I've said my piece 500 times in here. Watching other people trying to scrounge up a single logical response from these guys is kind of cathartic.

 

4 hours ago, Thorham said:

I'll pass 😉

 

4 hours ago, dwqrf said:

I'll take that as a "I can enjoy things and I don't need to argue about if it need changes or not".
Thanks for your input Tenno, have a good one.

 

And seeing that really showed how hopeless it is, lol.

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, kuciol said:

They say it that way because it sound cool, thats all there is to it so it is marketing. You can see such way of expalining abilities in other games too. You CAN do dmg with them at early stages of the game, later on weapons should take priority. Doesnt mean its optimal or even should. Some abilities do dmg only to alert enemies. Good example of that would be Ophanim eyes. Some abilities are meant to kill and they do nothing but dmg, some even have augments to change them for that purpose (like Nezhas 4 for example) but they are minority. Why do that you ask? Thats design decision made by DE. You use abilities to enchance the combat not them being the main tool. 

I'll just repeat myself then.

4 hours ago, Loza03 said:

This isn't marketing. Marketing is, yes, the 'try and sell stuff to people' - Marketing is the Warframe Profile where they show it against level 1 enemies, or write a flowery description in the marketplace.

Communication, however, is the way by which a dev tells a player, non-verbally and non-textually, elements about a character - usually how that character is meant to be played.

To demonstrate (and popping it in spoiler tags to not make the post too long):

  Hide contents

 

Right from the word go, there's an immediate way to tell the difference in how these two characters are meant to be played.

 

And again. This time, both the characters (or Mecha, as these are Titanfall titans) share one element of their design - they're both thin and willowy as giant robots go, with a ton of emphasis on the legs, which suggests they're both fast. However, the choice of weapon illustrates that one is supposed to use that speed to approach, and the other is supposed to use it to play keep-away.

 

And lastly, going with abilities this time, it's visually evident that one of these abilities deals a ton of damage, and the other is a radiant support - a buff or heal.

Basically, a character's theme and how their abilities present is still important.

 

 

And the fact remains that a bunch of these abilities that have secondary effects also deal damage numbers that appears to be significant, and is significant in other areas of the game. Some well past the point where it could be reasonably assumed as a low-level quirk.

Ophanim Eyes, the example you're giving, does 50 damage. Yeah, that's very evidently supposed to be chip damage - an unmodded Mk1 Braton has a higher DPS. But what about the powers that deal hundreds of damage, abilities like Shock and Pull, where the first thing you do in the whole game is to use those powers to kill enemies? Or to stay on the topic of Caliban, an ability that costs 100 energy and deals 10,000 damage and is basically a triple Kamehameha? It's a lot harder to justify that damage isn't a major effect there.

[dwqrf]

il y a 26 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Ophanim Eyes, the example you're giving, does 50 damage. Yeah, that's very evidently supposed to be chip damage - an unmodded Mk1 Braton has a higher DPS. But what about the powers that deal hundreds of damage, abilities like Shock and Pull, where the first thing you do in the whole game is to use those powers to kill enemies? Or to stay on the topic of Caliban, an ability that costs 100 energy and deals 10,000 damage and is basically a triple Kamehameha? It's a lot harder to justify that damage isn't a major effect there.

Context.

Eventually, everything will become chip damage. Just a matter of context, level, enemy type. You can't change that. You can't expect all abilities to work the same at every level. If you want to do that, either every ability does a set %max health damage and armor is removed from the game, or esle, lose yourself trying to stats-squish everything.

But for most people, using (1) can kill a couple of enemies, and using (4) can kill a lot of enemies. Because they play in regular star chart with a couple of %power/%range mods, and that's enough ; because you don't need to read the subtitles of each abilities and synergies ; that's for end game players and try harder (like us).

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Yeah, I realize now you make a hyper-fixation on the "no mod" part, when the whole thing I said was about 50-150h players playing in regular star chart, which was my claim which is research online. I did not ever look for a pool of how modded are players in these levels. Only from experience, some people are nicely modded, some not at all, and even then, it wouldn't matter much.

Then why did you specifically choose to mention them in the first place?

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Still enables damage in every situation. You know, sunlight doesn't really hurt on impact, but radiation exposure does. Are you an expert of how sentient work in depth ?

Yeah radiation exposure like three laser beams and a bomb going off.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

It said Versatile, Reliable, and Deadly. It was the MK1-Strun.

And is there any doubt whatsoever what the MK1-Strun is supposed to do?

Is there any confusion about what it's for, leading to several pages of discussion as to whether it's for armour stripping or for shooting people?

No. What it does is clearly communicated in its design.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Some abilities do damage ; Some can scale, some don't. At some point, the damage portion becomes irrelevant. AT SOME POINT. So then, it's not about damage but about additionnel effect. Wisp motes at first is strong because it gives flat health+regen ; but later in the game, speed and fire rate has much more value. And even further, the simple stun effect has the most value. It's all about context, not number.

And once again, that's kind of an illustration, isn't it. At some point, entire chunks of abilities become useless. That sucks! That's not good design, even in an RPG with a lot of vertical progression!

Destiny 2 lets Grenades you earn at the start of the game still be useful in raids. Monster Hunter has gone out of its way to make sure that you have decent options for every weapon type, even ones made from lower-level monsters, ever since Generations (which was 9 years ago, I feel ancient). Even in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, the Ur-RPG from which Warframe ultimately descends, a Fireball (not quite a 1st level spell but still) cast by a max-level wizard will still absolutely chunk a Vampire and knock out a good half of an Ancient Dragon's health, even though there are definitely better spells in the list - though that being said, AD&D Meteor Swarm (the closest 9th level equivalent) doesn't necessarily do much more damage it just hits in a waaaaay wider area. (and in the most recent editions, fireball still a damn good spell).

 

Basically what I'm  saying is that for a game that's supposed to be so long running (like these games are), Warframe's pretty dang weird in the fact that one of its main damage dealing options (and I reiterate, the very first one you're introduced to) just. Stops being relevant.

2 hours ago, dwqrf said:

Spells are designed to be able to seem effective to new player with damage at first, in normal star chart, so that even without a perfect modding, they can make use of it. But then, for veterans, spells also needs some advanced mecanics that can tackle down the issue we face in endgame. But they can't bloat every ability with moar damage and call it a day.

Except whilst an argument can be made that the individual weapons are meant to have Vertical progression, Warframes indubitably are not. They're all horizontal, and generally designed to be incomparable - mainly so that they can all be (theoretically) useful. By extension, that means this is the one place where it's absolutely the case that a Veteran and a New Player are playing with the same tools. So why should the Veteran, who has been slowly growing their game knowledge and power over weeks, months, years even be rewarded with their tools being objectively less useful???

And let's face it, if an ability isn't supposed to do damage... then it doesn't have to do damage. Or be a War of the Worlds impression. 

[MrInubis]

57 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

And the fact remains that a bunch of these abilities that have secondary effects also deal damage numbers that appears to be significant, and is significant in other areas of the game. Some well past the point where it could be reasonably assumed as a low-level quirk.

Ophanim Eyes, the example you're giving, does 50 damage. Yeah, that's very evidently supposed to be chip damage - an unmodded Mk1 Braton has a higher DPS. But what about the powers that deal hundreds of damage, abilities like Shock and Pull, where the first thing you do in the whole game is to use those powers to kill enemies? Or to stay on the topic of Caliban, an ability that costs 100 energy and deals 10,000 damage and is basically a triple Kamehameha? It's a lot harder to justify that damage isn't a major effect there.

They dont do this kind of dmg without mods and again thats design decision made by DE. That way both weapons and abilities work in tandem, we use both. If your abilities would nuke entire rooms all the time you would never use gun. Also doesnt matter how you call it. Abilities have such flavour texts because its sounds cool, nothing more. Again the fact that something does dmg doesnt mean it is suposed to be all end all thing. There are limits on what abilities can do because weapons are the main source of dmg. In early game you have access to less tools, you cant even spam abilities as much so they are relatively more powerfull. Its that simple. You may not agree with such design but its not your call to make.

Edited August 29 by kuciol

[dwqrf]

il y a 7 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Then why did you specifically choose to mention them in the first place?

Because the average time played by the average players is 50-150h... So they play in Star chart, not in endless sanctum Sp. What's so hard to get there ?

il y a 8 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Is there any confusion about what it's for, leading to several pages of discussion as to whether it's for armour stripping or for shooting people?

Yeah, it isn't neither versatile, nor reliable, nor deadly. But for you, description. Are you going to sue a food compagny because their slogan is "the most delicious food you'd ever eaten" ? Come on. Caliban has a ulti that's made to be aimed at enemies. Not your feet. Not the sky. The description point that out.
 

il y a 11 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

And once again, that's kind of an illustration, isn't it. At some point, entire chunks of abilities become useless. That sucks! That's not good design, even in an RPG with a lot of vertical progression!

YOU say they suck. I don't. Strip armor has value. Multiplicative damage has value. Stun has value, so does control, and vortex. If you can't see the value in something it doesn't mean it doesn't have any.
 

il y a 12 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Destiny 2 lets Grenades you earn at the start of the game still be useful in raids. Monster Hunter has gone out of its way to make sure that you have decent options for every weapon type, even ones made from lower-level monsters, ever since Generations (which was 9 years ago, I feel ancient). Even in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, the Ur-RPG from which Warframe ultimately descends, a Fireball (not quite a 1st level spell but still) cast by a max-level wizard will still absolutely chunk a Vampire and knock out a good half of an Ancient Dragon's health, even though there are definitely better spells in the list - though that being said, AD&D Meteor Swarm (the closest 9th level equivalent) doesn't necessarily do much more damage it just hits in a waaaaay wider area. (and in the most recent editions, fireball still a damn good spell).

Are those game Warframe ? Are those game still played today ? If Warframe isn't fun for you but those game are, what are you doing here ?
 

il y a 15 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

 objectively less useful???

Like you objectively say Caliban is bad, while you objectively really know him in depth ?

 

il y a 19 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

And let's face it, if an ability isn't supposed to do damage... then it doesn't have to do damage. Or be a War of the Worlds impression. 

Why ? Why wouldn't an ability be able to be useful for new players doing damage in their content, and also be useful in end game doing ulility like strip defense ? What's wrong with that ? You felt deceived and that's a problem ? It's not a game design problem, that's a you problem.

 

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, kuciol said:

They dont do this kind of dmg without mods and again thats design decision made by DE. That way both weapons and abilities work in tandem, we use both. If your abilities would nuke entire rooms all the time you would never use gun. Also doesnt matter how you call it. Abilities have such flavour texts because its sounds cool, nothing more. Again the fact that something does dmg doesnt mean it is suposed to be all end all thing. There are limits on what abilities can do because weapons are the main source of dmg. In early game you have access to less tools, you cant even spam abilities as much so they are relatively more powerfull. Its that simple. You may not agree with such design but its not your call to make.

Nobody is asking for all abilities to nuke rooms with infinite ammo. Well, Ok, I'm not.

After all, all weapons do damage, but not every weapon does damage in the same parameters. The same is true for abilities.

Let's look at Caliban's 4 as an example. It's a big sweeping attack that hits everything in front of him. Now examining Volt's 1. It's a dinky, single target attack. These aren't the same thing, so they shouldn't be treated the same. In reality the only difference is at what level they stop being useful, and the fact that unlike weapons as a concept, that they do at all.

And taking that second point about 'you can't even spam abilities as much - yeah, that seems like it's reasonable place to start if we want to let the two co-exist more naturally. It's a whole other kettle of fish to debate the pros and cons, but there's options as broad and sweeping as overhauling the energy system to stat squish the energy generation of the likes of Zenurik and Arcane energise and energy orb drops, to less sweeping but clumsier changes like adding cooldowns to potentially problematic powers after their stats get adjusted.

As for how to adjust the damage itself without messing up the New Player experience, mods. A seperate tab like in the Railjack menu where compatible abilities (so not the entire kit, and some frames like Limbo might not have any compatible powers) get to use ability mods. Which are scaled to being similar in potency to Weapon mods. Adjust base values to taste.

 

Like the above definitely has holes but it's 150 words, it's not exactly an in-depth suggestion either.

[dwqrf]

il y a 4 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

there's options as broad and sweeping as overhauling the energy system to stat squish the energy generation of the likes of Zenurik and Arcane energise and energy orb drops, to less sweeping but clumsier changes like adding cooldowns to potentially problematic powers after their stats get adjusted.

As for how to adjust the damage itself without messing up the New Player experience, mods. A seperate tab like in the Railjack menu where compatible abilities (so not the entire kit, and some frames like Limbo might not have any compatible powers) get to use ability mods. Which are scaled to being similar in potency to Weapon mods. Adjust base values to taste.

[vixenpixel]

2 hours ago, 4thBro said:

@vixenpixel

I'm literally using you for a second to get under this guy's skin. (Sorry, not sorry.)

You're a grill, and he treated you differently the moment you jumped in, and he enjoys pretending like he's the Hero in front of you. But he thinks you're gone now, and he is letting his true colors show once more.

So I'm just curious how he'll act with me pinging you. 👨‍🔬

 

 

Don't worry though, I won't ping you again. I played the card, it's in the discard pile now.

I think my fren Dorf expresses himself in a very impolite manner (If he did that in my clan I would give an instant 24hour chatban) but he isn't wrong about the things that sparked his ire. You shouldn't be in a discussion or any sort of conversation really, if you can not hear the other party and can not reflect around their points. I haven't followed the conversation but I recognise how infuriating it is to discuss something with someone who argues from the sole position of wanting to beat the opposing party by any means necessary.

The assumption he treated me differently because I am female seems to me just an attempt at snatching cheap points in this ridiculous mud-throwing contest. You could have assumed he treated me differently because of the position I took when I posted in the thread. But you wanted to take a snipe at him. And maybe me as well. 

If his supposition that you are a narcissist were correct, which it very well might be (I haven't kept tabs) your act of dragging me back into this silly game is not surprising. The overconfidence. The need for validation by pushing others down. Wanting to reflect your grandeur in the eyes of an audience. 

But I digress, I'm not a psychologist, nor am I intrigued by the prospect of diagnosing a person embodying such shallow antics. I want nothing to do with this.

I will say though, you are not worthy of the attention you are receiving. 

[Loza03]

36 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Because the average time played by the average players is 50-150h... So they play in Star chart, not in endless sanctum Sp. What's so hard to get there ?

Howlongtobeat.com suggests that an average player can get through the main story (that is to say, the main quests which unlock the majority of non-star chart content) in around 120 hours, with a motivated rushing player in 69 hours or so (nice). So even these average players will be unlocking a good chunk of the spicy content. One has to assume they're engaging with it.

41 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Yeah, it isn't neither versatile, nor reliable, nor deadly. But for you, description. Are you going to sue a food compagny because their slogan is "the most delicious food you'd ever eaten" ? Come on. Caliban has a ulti that's made to be aimed at enemies. Not your feet. Not the sky. The description point that out.

To be clear, are you disagreeing with the sentiment that this Shotgun's main purpose is to deal damage?

50 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

YOU say they suck. I don't. Strip armor has value. Multiplicative damage has value. Stun has value, so does control, and vortex. If you can't see the value in something it doesn't mean it doesn't have any.

The hell did I say that Armour Strip, Stun, Crowd control and so forth not have value?

53 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Are those game Warframe ? Are those game still played today ? If Warframe isn't fun for you but those game are, what are you doing here ?

Because Warframe is fun for me. It could be more fun, and less frustrustrating however.

Also I do play some of these games. Specifically Monster Hunter and Dungeons and Dragons 5e. I found Destiny too slow.

Warframe is not some monolithic entity that can't take inspiration or design advice from other successful RPG's.

59 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Like you objectively say Caliban is bad, while you objectively really know him in depth ?

Where the hell did I say Caliban was bad.

I didn't even say his 4 was bad. I said it communicated intent badly.

1 hour ago, dwqrf said:

Why ? Why wouldn't an ability be able to be useful for new players doing damage in their content, and also be useful in end game doing ulility like strip defense ? What's wrong with that ? You felt deceived and that's a problem ? It's not a game design problem, that's a you problem.

If you want a reason 'why not'.

1: It's confusing and is a contributing factor to Warframe's reputation as convoluted. If the exact same power is used for something completely different, entirely by design later in the game, then that's information the player is taught that then needs to be un-learned later. Or to increase the load a player needs to keep in mind based on how often they vary what levels they're operating at. This is especially notable because abilities as a main damage dealing option isn't just a part of the tutorial, it's literally the first bit of playable action that happens. That'd be like if enemies in Mario stopped being killed by jumping on them halfway through the game.

2: it can create broader user-experience issues. Ember's old 4th ability was a posterchild of the damage problem. It was basically useless in what was then late-game content because the damage was pitiful. But its huge range, lack of Line of Sight requirements and low engagement meant that at levels where it did meaningful damage, Ember players could very easily make it so that new players in public settings had nothing to do whilst a veteran player sat and farmed endless loot. For many players, this is a poor experience, and for others, it sets bad expectations for how the game should be. 

3: It can break new player's builds in a fundamental way. Unlike, for example, a player failing to understand the mod system in a way that can be improved, a build that relies on ability damage at low level (for abilities that aren't the lucky few) won't work through no fault of the new player's own. There's no learning experience - only the simple fact that before this point their build works, and after it doesn't. This is disheartening and frustrating, because the first assumption for a lot of players will be that they're doing something wrong. 

4: It can break veteran player's builds in lower-level content - which isn't nearly as bad as 3, but is still really annoying, and can make grind where you have to engage with lower level content for whatever reason feel like even more of a chore.

5: It leads to less buildcraft expression. Even if the main focus of the game is to have weapons as the foundation of the combat system, some people are gonna want to mess around with other options, even ones evidently sub-optimal. Some people are gonna want to throw around fireballs. The current system puts a hard cap on that, again through no fault of the player's own.

 

Okay so there's some reasons why not. Now I want to hear some reasons why the way things are is a good thing.

[dwqrf]

il y a 13 minutes, vixenpixel a dit :

Dorf expresses himself in a very impolite manner (If he did that in my clan I would give an instant 24hour chatban)

You are too kind. I shall deserve a longer chatban period because I've really been out of line during this argument with this person ; but muting him gave me more space to actually keep talking with the interested/interesting subjects, even if we still don't agree.

One morning, seeing the topic kept going between two muted person, my curiosity was way too strong and I checked one message, which was just another bunch of personnal attacks towards me, for no reasons, forcing me to justify my actions, once again, in a deaf ear. And that lead to that, whatever this is.

Anyways, this topic should be been closed long ago and many of the users in it (me included) should receive some kind of warnings, which would be totally reasonable. But maybe channeling all of the wrongs the forums can produce into one place isn't that bad after all.

It's going into circle ; but I'd rather have it go into circle that letting it go straight into the wrong direction.

For my defense, I did try to apologize for my behaviour :
 

Le 28/08/2024 à 19:27, dwqrf a dit :

Like being polite, understanding, and apologetic. You did something wrong to the eye of the ban-hammer yielders ; that should be enough for you to consider you might have stepped out of line.
[...]
Like I did in this very topic : I was angry and salty, and also made personnal attacks. I shouldn't have, it's not my place, and it's not the topic ; Guess what : I learnt to mute and ignore the trolls, and that made me much healthier and also a better person. First step is to accept and realize you did something wrong.

Anyways...

Using other people to get into my skin ? 🤮




 

[4thBro]

Heh.

 

And all I did was point out fallacies.

Gotta love it.

 

15 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

I think my fren Dorf expresses himself in a very impolite manner (If he did that in my clan I would give an instant 24hour chatban) but he isn't wrong about the things that sparked his ire. You shouldn't be in a discussion or any sort of conversation really, if you can not hear the other party and can not reflect around their points

Okay, and this is where your lack of knowing the whole conversation is showing.

 

Party A wants X thing added to game, and declares that they're willing to do whatever it takes so that it doesn't get in the way of Party B.

Party B won't participate in X thing, and so they don't want it added.

 

So who's not hearing who? Who isn't working around points to make everyone happy?

 

18 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

I recognise how infuriating it is to discuss something with someone who argues from the sole position of wanting to beat the opposing party by any means necessary

Yes. You're just mixed up on who that is.

Who goes into a suggestion thread and says the person is "getting destroyed"???

 

19 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

The assumption he treated me differently because I am female seems to me just an attempt at snatching cheap points in this ridiculous mud-throwing contest

Okay. Let's not be disingenuously naive, now. Part of that calculation included his mannerisms. There's no "cheap points" here, and, frankly, I felt it was a bit condescending and transparent, the way he talked to you.

I'm certainly not the only one who saw that.

But hey, he was talking to you. If you didn't feel that way, then that's all that matters.

 

22 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

If his supposition that you are a narcissist were correct, which it very well might be (I haven't kept tabs) your act of dragging me back into this silly game is not surprising. The overconfidence. The need for validation by pushing others down. Wanting to reflect your grandeur in the eyes of an audience. 

I knew what I was doing when I tagged you. I know it was mischievous. That was my intention, and I didn't hide from it. I just also didn't think it was a big deal. Light hearted, even.

I don't see how (over)confidence comes in, though, but oh well.

But a need for validation by putting others down? All I've done is point out the fallacies used by others. And I've ENCOURAGED people to do the same to me, if I am using any.

Meanwhile, your friend directly calls me a subhuman, and WANTED me and another guy to fight, for his amusement. Literally.

That ain't on me. No amount of "narcissist" or "needs attention" labels can make it so that I chose his actions. Or anyone else's, for that matter. Most of this thread is wasted on fallacious posts. And the reason that's important to know is because fallacies are literally dead space in a discussion.

 

 

 

 

BUT... I'm not dumb. I know that the more I talk about the technicalities and facts and logic, the more people get disinterested. People are interested in emotions. And emotions are for entertainment.

My suspicion is that half of these posters want a real talk revolving around logical points, and the other half are just here for entertainment. The two cannot have a meaningful conversation with each other. Their goals are different.

 

35 minutes ago, vixenpixel said:

But I digress, I'm not a psychologist, nor am I intrigued by the prospect of diagnosing a person embodying such shallow antics. I want nothing to do with this.

I will say though, you are not worthy of the attention you are receiving. 

But you seem to be on the emotions side of this, if you're calling anything I've been saying "antics."

[dwqrf]

il y a 6 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

One has to assume they're engaging with it.

Have you ever played with one of those RPG when you start to see how much grind there is, and just decide : nope. I don't think Warframe is that different. Some people get hooked. For a long time. Most just have fun with it for a bit, and move on. And for Most people, just buying a frame and having its spell doing damage is great; because they don't want to get too involved in it to make it work. Hence the difference between supercially damaging abilities, and the deep subtilities we need to make it work later.
 

il y a 8 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

To be clear, are you disagreeing with the sentiment that this Shotgun's main purpose is to deal damage?

Yes, I definitely do. I don't think the point of existence of the Mk1-Strun is to do damage. It's more like to give a feel for the players which would like to know how shotguns works, this family of weapons, they do exist in Warframe, and they have this unique shell by shell mecanics and spread and a satisfying sound and such. Unmodded, it does enough damage when you pick it up (mr0) to be relevant (there), but the description would be a straight up lie for people looking for a Versatile, Reliable, Deadly weapon in some mid/end game.
 

il y a 11 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

Warframe is not some monolithic entity that can't take inspiration or design advice from other successful RPG's.

But, should it ? They are doing things differently, and that's fine ! Look, it's popular enough. Enough ? Making choices to try to make it more popular could also make it less popular. It's a really dangerous gamble.
 

il y a 13 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

I said it communicated intent badly.

And least, It seems like we found out why I'm maining it...
 

il y a 13 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

The hell did I say that Armour Strip, Stun, Crowd control and so forth not have value?
[...]
Where the hell did I say Caliban was bad.

Well, it seems to me you are on board with the "everything that do damage should do big killing damage to be useful.". So from that point, I have to think you dismiss everything else that make the ability unique.

[dwqrf]

il y a 33 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

1: It's confusing and is a contributing factor to Warframe's reputation as convoluted. If the exact same power is used for something completely different, entirely by design later in the game, then that's information the player is taught that then needs to be un-learned later. Or to increase the load a player needs to keep in mind based on how often they vary what levels they're operating at. This is especially notable because abilities as a main damage dealing option isn't just a part of the tutorial, it's literally the first bit of playable action that happens. That'd be like if enemies in Mario stopped being killed by jumping on them halfway through the game.

2: it can create broader user-experience issues. Ember's old 4th ability was a posterchild of the damage problem. It was basically useless in what was then late-game content because the damage was pitiful. But its huge range, lack of Line of Sight requirements and low engagement meant that at levels where it did meaningful damage, Ember players could very easily make it so that new players in public settings had nothing to do whilst a veteran player sat and farmed endless loot. For many players, this is a poor experience, and for others, it sets bad expectations for how the game should be. 

3: It can break new player's builds in a fundamental way. Unlike, for example, a player failing to understand the mod system in a way that can be improved, a build that relies on ability damage at low level (for abilities that aren't the lucky few) won't work through no fault of the new player's own. There's no learning experience - only the simple fact that before this point their build works, and after it doesn't. This is disheartening and frustrating, because the first assumption for a lot of players will be that they're doing something wrong. 

4: It can break veteran player's builds in lower-level content - which isn't nearly as bad as 3, but is still really annoying, and can make grind where you have to engage with lower level content for whatever reason feel like even more of a chore.

5: It leads to less buildcraft expression. Even if the main focus of the game is to have weapons as the foundation of the combat system, some people are gonna want to mess around with other options, even ones evidently sub-optimal. Some people are gonna want to throw around fireballs. The current system puts a hard cap on that, again through no fault of the player's own.

A lot of good points. Now I know what you are trying to talk about. Thank you for that.
And I do agree with some of it. Mainly 2, because of the Titania/Sunder going rampant in low level fissures destroying any new players enjoyment the game.
But I'm going to answer to you in detail tomorow.

Edited August 29 by dwqrf