Warframe is a game held back by how easy it is

[4thBro]

14 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

"Make sub optimal weapons stronger ! Reeeeeeeeee"

The fact that it's been made into a video of substantial significance proves against the point you think you're making by posting it.

 

Additionally, the things going on in this are clearly beyond you. Demos are single target enemies, for starters. You would not use this same weapon against regular hordes of enemies. And that's fine, of course. However, that being said, use that information to now identify the fact that most of the work being done in this video is all of the OTHER pieces of the puzzle, buffing up the MK1 Paris to be able to kill this foe.

 

In other words: It is a testament to the amount of strength you can gain in Warframe. Not a testament to weapons being equal. Obviously, many many many other weapons could fill in for this MK1 Paris here, and do substantially better.

 

But all of this explanation is just blah blah blah to you, isn't it.
Lol.

[PublikDomain]

23 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

And you can't understand how wrong you are trying to make everything equally good without making everything equally bad.

But both are the same? So they're equally good. You can throw a little tantrum about how they're equally bad, but that's dumb. You'd be doing the same missions just as fast. How are you suddenly bad when doing the exact same thing?

[PublikDomain]

21 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

"Make sub optimal weapons stronger ! Reeeeeeeeee"

If you have to do all that S#&$ just to make it kill in 4 headshots on an immobile enemy then it's not very good, lol. Goofy.

[MrInubis]

40 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If you're refusing to respond, then you're surrendering.

I accept.

Respond to what? To your imagination? There is more than one way to make games the same way there is more than one way of making music. All you did here is presented how you imagine the game should be, your expectations. Nothing more. DE has its own vision how gameplay should look like and it just happens to not be what you invisioned. There is nothing more to say.

[4thBro]

 

This is the Cedo.

It is X amount of Good, and Y amount of Bad.

 

Are we following so far?

 

Tell me what you think. Would you say that it looks like it's good, or that it looks like it's bad?

Looks pretty good, right? The Good bar is about 95% filled. The Bad bar is just at a tiny sliver. This means that it's pretty good, right? You would say that it's good.

You would NOT say that it's bad, based on this chart.

If you were one human being speaking to another human being, you might say something like, "Hey man, did you know the Cedo is pretty good?"

 

 

 

 

Okay. Let's move on to the next step here.

 

 

Now what do we have here?

Balanced guns. They don't do the same exact thing. But they are balanced nonetheless. Players report back with an equal amount of success with all of these guns, when built correctly and played properly.

 

They are all equally as good as one another. Additionally, they are all equally as bad as one another!

But none of them are bad.

They are all equally not bad.

As they are, indeed, all equally quite good.

 

You would not go around telling people that they are bad guns.

I hope this episode of Charts for Children has helped some of our viewers out!

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

It's true that the best things would become less good in a relative sense, but that's the whole point and unless you're a little baby who can't feel "powerful" unless there's something weak to look down on then that shouldn't matter.

It's rather harsh and reductive to call others "little babies" if they value the comparative progression they're making as they improve their account's overall arsenal. While I enjoy when DE revisits certain equipment through augments and other means of upgrades, I absolutely despise homogenization of equipment performance. The only "stat squishes" that the game would benefit from are in the department of damage multipliers. Too many things are multiplicative to each other, and that's how things have gotten quite out of hand. You actually do need bad/starter/early equipment for the later game/good equipment to be valued as such. If we were to just squeeze equipment stats themselves, all you'd do is discourage players from farming new equipment and increase the feedback of new stuff just being a grind, because the goal in that equipment wouldn't exist past the Mastery Rank system.

We already have tremendous diversity in gear, but lots of players like to shoehorn themselves into the best-in-slot. If DE want to address that, then they should be coming out with more of a backbone towards the playerbase on the disruptive context of certain builds and performance outliers. Either that, or just come clean that they don't really care and that it doesn't matter.

We just had an interview with [DE]Rebecca from Gamescom while answering questions about balance, and the 3 main reasons to balance gear (dominance, plays the game for you, and disruptive to others) perfectly describe multiple loadout choices that the community she's speaking towards in this specific interview abuses heavily, to the detriment of the game and other players as a whole (as we've seen in the past and current trends of the moment).

This topic is complex, because these types of games require content that make all this gear worth farming for, but unlike most games, DE has cultivated a dedicated playerbase that isn't expected to have much consequence or requirement to engage with the game that way. This creates a clash between many players who want an experience that never demands them to put too much effort in, and players who want to stress the arsenal they've been building up for so long, and be rewarded appropriately (which means gating rewards, otherwise there's no point in trying as a player).

Edited September 3 by Voltage

[4thBro]

19 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It's rather harsh and reductive to call others "little babies" if they value the comparative progression they're making as they improve their account's overall arsenal. While I enjoy when DE revisits certain equipment through augments and other means of upgrades, I absolutely despise homogenization of equipment performance. The only "stat squishes" that the game would benefit from are in the department of damage multipliers. Too many things are multiplicative to each other, and that's how things have gotten quite out of hand. You actually do need bad/starter/early equipment for the later game/good equipment to be valued as such. If we were to just squeeze equipment stats themselves, all you'd do is discourage players from farming new equipment and increase the feedback of new stuff just being a grind, because the goal in that equipment wouldn't exist past the Mastery Rank system.

This IS true, by the way. I will say this:

You can't have good without evil. So to speak.

 

However, I think this is an EXTREMELY minor talking point. Ultimately, we can just use this to slightly adjust the original statement.

 

>Balance all weapons.

>Balance most weapons.

 

And then we move on.

(The MK weps can stay MK weps. That's fine, nobody cares. And other weapons literally designed to be lesser than other versions can remain so, like non-Primes, non-Kuvas, etc. But the spirit of the intention of balancing remains. Make the decision between Bramma and Lenz about preference, or what fits into the build better, rather than one being basically strictly better than the other.)

 

22 minutes ago, Voltage said:

We already have tremendous diversity in gear, but lots of players like to shoehorn themselves into the best-in-slot.

We do have pretty good diversity, yes.

Frankly, I have NO F---ING IDEA how this whole discussion about weapons and Frame abilities even happened. But my guess is that either dwqrf or kuciol started it as an intentional off-topic distraction, and without even checking, I'd bet my life on it. (I've tried to redirect the thread to go back to the main topic, but to no avail.)

 

The main topic is that WF is held back by being too easy. My interpretation of this statement is that there's nothing really to do. Yes, I could farm MR, but that's the same as playing Wow and saying, "I could go explore the whole map and get that achievement." I don't care about it, and it wouldn't be fun to do.

What many of us want as a solution is actual endgame content. Every now and then, we've had this. I remember when Eidolons were that. And it fit the role, I just didn't enjoy them, personally.

But now we cut to current day, and Eidos certainly don't fit that void anymore. And, really, nothing does. EDA's are plagued by the randomized loadout mechanic (and enemies being too low level anyway). Void Cascade is plagued by massive Operator reliance, which illuminates the issue about what Frame abilities do and do not render you vulnerable during Operator usage. And, of course, Duviri is also plagued with randomized loadouts.

So we are left wanting.

 

That's the essence of the start of this topic.

The whole thread turned into ash when a few people came in and boldly declared that adding an endgame would be bad for WF, and those that wanted an endgame tried to hold a conversation with a group of zealots that refused to listen.

And - by all means - feel free to go through this thread and tell me if you agree or not. However, if you refuse to go through the thread, I then need to ask you, respectfully, to refrain from making judgments and handing out labels when you chose to be uninformed of the whole background of the subject. (I know that sounds harsh, but it isn't. It's just straight-forward.)

 

32 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This topic is complex, because these types of games require content that make all this gear worth farming for, but unlike most games, DE has cultivated a dedicated playerbase that isn't expected to have much consequence or requirement to engage with the game that way. This creates a clash between many players who want an experience that never demands them to put too much effort in, and players who want to stress the arsenal they've been building up for so long, and be rewarded appropriately (which means gating rewards, otherwise there's no point in trying as a player).

Indeed, it is complex, and the community as a whole has basically been "written into a corner." There is a great divide. But I think it shouldn't be hard to appease both crowds.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1411522-endgame-idea-the-new-war/

This is a thread I made recently on another idea I had for endgame content.

Notably, for this conversation, I'd like you to look at how I imagine the rewards, and Rotations, to be.

 

The first set of AABC can be... a difficult goal for lower tier players to achieve, but still very doable. And since that's a full AABC rote, they aren't missing out on anything.

For players that wish to test themselves, however, they can keep going. They can get bonuses to the amount of rewards they get, but this doesn't make them actually get things other people cannot get. After the first AABC, the ramp-up can be quite fast, allowing THOSE types of players to not have to waste a bunch of time to get what they came for. And, as for everyone else, as stated, they can just extract and restart after one whole rotation anyway.

 

I feel like this is the perfect solution. The only complaint I can see happening would be, "I can't push past the first AABC and I'm missing out on a loot boost because of it, please nerf!"

But not all complaints matter, if we're being honest... There really comes a point where you gotta tell people No.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

It's rather harsh and reductive to call others "little babies"

For this guy in particular? Nah. I could be much more harsh.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

You actually do need bad/starter/early equipment for the later game/good equipment to be valued as such.

But why do you need bad equipment for other equipment to feel valuable? For example, consider this clip:

Even without having another example to compare it to, and even without knowing the mods included or the level of the enemy shown, I think it's safe to say that this enemy takes a while to be defeated. You don't need a MK1 Kunai in the picture to understand that an enemy taking 54* shots to kill is a lot.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

all you'd do is discourage players from farming new equipment and increase the feedback of new stuff just being a grind, because the goal in that equipment wouldn't exist past the Mastery Rank system.

But this is already how the game is today. Your "goal in that equipment" already dies well inside the early Mastery Ranks. We can all look for ourselves at the official usage stats to see how people actually progress through their equipment, and in those stats you can plainly see new players as early as MR7 starting to use Kuva weapons, the good ones of which remaining competitively dominant all the way up to the Legendary ranks. Even my MR5 test account has a Lich, so it can be done even sooner than MR7 - as we see in the data.

(Blame DE's terrible site for the formatting.)

So if the concern is for the "Mastery Rank System", well, it's already kinda #*!%ed. Not only is it #*!%ed as soon as players get to a high enough MR to grab the best whatever and never use anything else, players can also skip the whole thing and buy just about any mod or weapon or frame -if not from DE themselves then from other players. So it's doubly #*!%ed when you can just bypass it.

Not to mention that if new weapons always being good is somehow going to discourage players from acquiring these good new weapons, then what about when bad new weapons are added now? Were you excited to progress to the Shaku? It really doesn't look like it, it looks like you did the same thing we all do with the Shaku: you grinded it out even though it isn't particularly good, got your 3k Mastery, and haven't used it since.

But if the Shaku were good then maybe you'd use it like your Ninkondi.

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

While I enjoy when DE revisits certain equipment through augments and other means of upgrades, I absolutely despise homogenization of equipment performance. The only "stat squishes" that the game would benefit from are in the department of damage multipliers. Too many things are multiplicative to each other, and that's how things have gotten quite out of hand.

And if we're being transparent, reducing damage multipliers is exactly the kind of change I think DE should be making. For one, if you look at unmodded weapon stats they're already pretty consistent! Consider these rifles' unmodded sustained DPS':

• Aeolak: 352
• Baza: 256
• AX-52: 363
• Braton Prime: 294
• Dera Vandal: 290
• Gotva Prime: 340
• Baza Prime: 318
• Telos Boltor: 318
• Kuva Karak: 262
• Tenet Tetra: 352
• Prisma Grakata: 328
• Paracyst: 294

Then compare that to some unmodded abilities:

• Soul Punch: 500
• Whipclaw: 300
• Smite: 500
• Divine Spears: 600 + 600
• Rhino Charge: 650
• Rhino Stomp: 800

And then compare that to a K-Drive:

• Slay Board: 400
• Cold Arrival: 400
• Kinetic Friction: 400
• Thrash Landing: 1,200

It's pretty even! At least at the start. But then you multiply your weapon damage 1,000x or whatever from mods and everything but weapons get left in the dust. So while DE could address imbalance by touching base weapon stats, it's probably better and more effective to instead go after the multipliers coming from weapon damage mods. As you've said. And while DE could adjust mod stats or how they combine, it's probably better and more effective to just allow for a smaller number of multipliers at a time. Then you can keep your big fat mod multipliers with their big jumps in damage, and also maybe claw back some of that modding space we all currently waste on boring damage mods.

As for the rest:

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

This topic is complex, because these types of games require content that make all this gear worth farming for, but unlike most games, DE has cultivated a dedicated playerbase that isn't expected to have much consequence or requirement to engage with the game that way. This creates a clash between many players who want an experience that never demands them to put too much effort in, and players who want to stress the arsenal they've been building up for so long, and be rewarded appropriately (which means gating rewards, otherwise there's no point in trying as a player).

I'd agree with this summary. But while it is complicated, I don't think it needs to result in a clash. On the topic of gating rewards, EDA/Netracells do it really well: you can get the same drops in Netracells, or you can accelerate your progress by doing the harder EDA. No one is locked out. Conjunction Survival also did it very well, with a harder node that gives more drops. So it's possible to have challenge mode rewards that don't gate easy players out entirely.

Edited September 3 by PublikDomain

[4thBro]

21 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

For this guy in particular? Nah. I could be much more harsh.

To emphasize on this off-topic point for a second:

 

@Voltage

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1408026-warframe-is-a-game-held-back-by-how-easy-it-is/?do=findComment&comment=13106379

There's a good list of things dwqrf has said.

If you still think we've been reductive or harsh towards him.

 

 

 

 

I know that list is long, but as you keep going through it, his comments just get more and more unhinged.

Quote

Go read articles about narcissistic perverse, you freak, maybe you'll then understand why the world hate your kind.

Like, what is this??? That's WILD.

Edited September 3 by 4thBro

[MrInubis]

33 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

But why do you need bad equipment for other equipment to feel valuable? For example, consider this clip

To have motivation to get new, better one. Why would i grind out standing for example to get 5 more dmg? The upgrade needs to be meaningfull.

Edited September 3 by kuciol

[dwqrf]

So when I extrapoled your way I thinking I talked about inevitable mods stats-squishing, you screamed at me for saying some stuff you didn't say :
 

Le 02/09/2024 à 00:58, dwqrf a dit :

No, because after stats squishing weapons and spells, you'll have to stats squishing every mods too, so everything is 'fun and balanced', no room for mistakes or choices, every mod will have the same flat value per slot.

Il y a 16 heures, PublikDomain a dit :

Another blatant lie. I've said nothing about changing the mods themselves. You're lying again.

Lies and hyperbole and fear all the way down. No proof, no evidence, no logic. No listening, no thinking, no being objective. You've got nothing.

And then, the next day you say :
 

Il y a 5 heures, PublikDomain a dit :

It's pretty even! At least at the start. But then you multiply your weapon damage 1,000x or whatever from mods and everything but weapons get left in the dust. So while DE could address imbalance by touching base weapon stats, it's probably better and more effective to instead go after the multipliers coming from weapon damage mods. As you've said. And while DE could adjust mod stats or how they combine, it's probably better and more effective to just allow for a smaller number of multipliers at a time. Then you can keep your big fat mod multipliers with their big jumps in damage, and also maybe claw back some of that modding space we all currently waste on boring damage mods.

So... what now ? Am I mistaken to say your way of thinking is a slippery slope ? 🤷‍♂️

Ha ! Who is lying now.

Edited September 3 by dwqrf

[dwqrf]

Il y a 5 heures, 4thBro a dit :

Like, what is this??? That's WILD.

You know what's wild ? You refusing to asnwer any questions we asked you for days about the endgame you play ; meanwhile, twisting everyones words into your ego narrative, while playing the victim and trying to bring every single persons in this topic and around on your side against anybody that doesn't give you the love you think you should get. The attention you get from me is already beyond anything you deserve, lil' Ballas.

That's what they do.

[DigitalCielo]

There's a reason why people make Fashion Frame the Endgame for Warframe. Climbing an ever growing insurmountable mountain of Plat to get the most variety of drip is simply the most difficult task you can perform in the game. You get Cosmetics and Decorations from so many sources it's actually a difficult grind not to mention the ever growing list of items being sold in market.

[Zimzala]

13 hours ago, 4thBro said:

As always, an older quote of mine is still relevant.

This is how we know you're going in circles. Because, at this point, we can all just quote ourselves from 10+ pages back and it's a full & valid response to what you just said in whatever the most recent page is.

Still thinking your prose is always on point I see, nothing elitist there at all...

Since you can all quote yourselves and are going in circles, what makes you keep coming back?

I come for the laughter generated by your frustration at not being able to sway your audience.

If you know you cannot change minds and you don't even like interacting with the people posting, why are you continuing?

Do you think there is some magical prose you can type that will suddenly make everyone come to your way of thinking?

Genuinely curious.

[4thBro]

You're not genuinely anything.

 

 

When I'm not on mobile, I'll make a post breaking down each person's posting summary in here.

In it, I will analyze how often people actually address questions, bring up points, or use fallacies. I will have a tallying score system. And I will have an explanation for every single tally.

(How well do you think YOU'LL do?😄)

[Zimzala]

45 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

You're not genuinely anything.

That is entirely untrue. I have shared nothing but my real thoughts here, I always do, even if some people don't like them or have trouble accepting them. From previous posts, you seem to have an 'always online' outlook and assume 'everything is a conspiracy', so I understand why you think this way, but it's all in your head. Kind of sad.

I have no ulterior motives. i have explained myself entirely - I get schadenfreude out of gamers and their rants over minutiae while trying to convince others their POV it the One True Outlook.

Been doing this since the advent of BBS technology.

I reckon that will just spawn off more conspiracies in your head, but those are the facts.

45 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

When I'm not on mobile, I'll make a post breaking down each person's posting summary in here.

In it, I will analyze how often people actually address questions, bring up points, or use fallacies. I will have a tallying score system. And I will have an explanation for every single tally.

(How well do you think YOU'LL do?😄)

So you like to keep little scores of other people to make yourself feel superior.

(I don't care - I see criticism as worthless from those I would not take advice.)

Thanks for answering!

Good Luck and Happy Gaming.

[Geometries62]

8 часов назад, DigitalCielo сказал:

There's a reason why people make Fashion Frame the Endgame for Warframe.

Or watching beginners guide on youtube.

[4thBro]

21 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

That is entirely untrue. I have shared nothing but my real thoughts here, I always do, even if some people don't like them or have trouble accepting them. From previous posts, you seem to have an 'always online' outlook and assume 'everything is a conspiracy', so I understand why you think this way, but it's all in your head. Kind of sad.

I have no ulterior motives. i have explained myself entirely - I get schadenfreude out of gamers and their rants over minutiae while trying to convince others their POV it the One True Outlook.

Been doing this since the advent of BBS technology.

I reckon that will just spawn off more conspiracies in your head, but those are the facts.

So you like to keep little scores of other people to make yourself feel superior.

(I don't care - I see criticism as worthless from those I would not take advice.)

Thanks for answering!

Good Luck and Happy Gaming.

Damn, already trying to dismiss the results and I haven't even done it yet.

I guess you're anticipating a certain type of result, aren't ya?

[4thBro]

Spoiler

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1408026-warframe-is-a-game-held-back-by-how-easy-it-is/?do=findComment&comment=13110044

We will start on page 45, where you first showed up!

 

This post can be broken up into 2 parts. The gray section is, at best, off-topic write-off content. This is a Miscellaneous category where we will put side chatter.

Note: This is very generous of me, because realistically, this is ad hominem. But that's a freebie you can have.

 

The red section is clear straw man. I am obviously not "howling at the moon" because I can't make people agree with my outlook. And to prove that point, I have already said on multiple occasions that it's OKAY for us to disagree on wanting to play an endgame. That is the exact opposite of "howling at the moon over not being able to make everyone agree with [their] outlook over it."

 

And that is why your entire introductory post is completely off-topic and fallacy-ridden.

Your score so far:

Questions being answered: 0

On-topic points being made: 0

Fallacies: 1

Miscellaneous: 1

Spoiler

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1408026-warframe-is-a-game-held-back-by-how-easy-it-is/?do=findComment&comment=13110055

 

This post is broken down into 3 sections based on where different thoughts begin and end. As you can see, all 3 sections are marked red, meaning they are fallacious in nature.

 

Section 1 was almost a gray Miscellaneous section, until you straw manned again with the same rhetoric that I am trying to "force people to think the same way." You even say "having the community agree," but that's an extremely bizarre thing to say. Isn't the point of a discussion, or more accurately a DEBATE, to get people to agree with you? How do you warp that into some kind of "force people" narrative? I am trying to convince people just as much as literally every single person on any and all sides of the debate.

Anyway... Moving on.

 

Section 2 is random flaming, still attached to the same straw man, but it seemed more like ad hominem was the prominent feature of this section, which is why it got its own breakoff.

 

Section 3 is another attempt at the exhausted straw man, and arbitrary flaming included equally, which is also what made it seem like it deserved another section for itself.

 

Overall, still nothing on-topic to say, still not answering any questions anybody asked, and still just not contributing in any positive way whatsoever. Even worse than that, borderline admitting to being a troll by only talking about "how entertaining" it is to post all these red posts at me.

 

Your score so far:

Questions being answered: 0

On-topic points being made: 0

Fallacies: 4

Miscellaneous: 1

Spoiler

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1408026-warframe-is-a-game-held-back-by-how-easy-it-is/?do=findComment&comment=13110064

 

 

Section 1 started off Miscellaneous, but became Fallacious pretty quickly. The entire point of section 1 was to make a comment about wanting to never play with me. This is clearly ad hominem.

 

Section 2 is a random general statement. It should be marked as Fallacious, because you're trying to use it as if it is an opposing statement to me and my actions, but we're once again being generous and marking it gray.

 

Section 3 is Miscellaneous pretty clearly, however it does end up leading to future... scoring later on. (You never declare your stance, despite being asked, and being intentionally vague and indirect is a problem in itself.)

 

Section 4 is just the same tired straw man attempt. Asking people smaller questions 1 at a time is not trying to get people to say what I want them to say. Nobody is forcing them to say certain answers. If I say "what is 2 + 2" you are free to answer however you want. And if I end up with a sequence of these types of questions, and the resulting conclusion does NOT add up, then you are free to state how they do not add up. However, refusing to participate in a series of smaller questions is no different than refusing to answer any other questions in the middle of a discussion. It just makes the whole conversation irrelevant and dead, and it's because of the person that refused to participate in it.

This seems pretty obvious to me.

 

Section 5 is broken off into a new section (which is clearly Fallacious) because it is a different thought than the previous one. Even though it's just more ad hominem, it earns you a separate Fallacy tally because you're going out of your way to begin a whole new paragraph to try to drill this narrative into people's heads. Everybody knows: You repeat it often enough, people start to believe it! This is a sad but true fact about psychology, and has been known for a millennia. And you're trying to abuse it. (Take a look at the posts, lol. Literally visual representations of how often you start new thoughts to drill in the SAME thoughts over and over again.)

 

Your score so far:

Questions being answered: 0

On-topic points being made: 0

Fallacies: 7

Miscellaneous: 3

Still never posted anything on-topic. You were even asked two direct questions, thus being given a chance to start earning some honest positive points towards the thread. But you did not answer 1) HOW it is that I'm trying to force people to agree with me, and 2) how I'm trying to conform people to my POV. Simply repeating that I AM doing it is not an explanation as to how you've reached that conclusion at all. You were given a chance. You chose to only post red.

Spoiler

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1408026-warframe-is-a-game-held-back-by-how-easy-it-is/?do=findComment&comment=13110100

 

 

I thought about section 1 for a while. I almost gave it a gray. But, ultimately, I decided on red.

It is certainly intentionally indirect, at the VERY least, which is what earns it the red. "Don't want DE to add something" is intentionally misleading. Yes, you've said you like and dislike various things that they've added, and aren't innately against something being added. However, you did NOT answer in regards to THE TOPIC. And you easily could have. You once again actively avoided being on topic.

 

Section 2 is extremely brief, but still gets the green light. Question answered.

 

Section 3 is red because its entire purpose was to call my words "antics." Also to try to indirectly call me abrasive. (Although I myself admit to being abrasive. I don't really care that I am, because it has no bearing on whether you're right or wrong. I also attribute most of my abrasiveness to be bluntness and honesty, which IS often abrasive to people, especially these days. But anyway, the point that you're trying to use this section negatively towards me gives it the red. It's pretty much ad hominem.)

 

Section 4 is gray, no worries. Not on topic, not fallacious. It's gray.

 

Section 5 is pretty obviously red. You're admitting to freely insulting me, and even do it again in the same line.

 

Section 6 is a new thought. And is, obviously, another straw man. (With a hint of ad hominem at the end!)

 

Section 7 is pretty obviously gray. I could maybe even give this the green, since you are addressing some dialogue, and you don't need to disagree in order to be green... I'll just give that the green, actually, despite the image showing gray.

 

Section 8, however, is right back to red! Honestly, this might even be able to get split up into multiple red sections, but I am too lazy to delve into that detail. I did check to see if any other categories are amidst that section, and there isn't. So this will suffice.

 

Your score so far:

Questions being answered: 1

On-topic points being made: 1

Fallacies: 12

Miscellaneous: 4

 

Back to work for me. That's a sneak peak at the whole process!

 

But maybe you get the picture from here, eh? Maybe I can save myself some trouble, and you can just assume the pattern.

But by all means, if you think you improve your stats as the posts come in, and would like me to continue, I might just do that!

 

Now, everyone else, go back and look at your previous posts and ask yourselves. How do you think you would hold up with the same kind of analysis?

How confident are you that you're not being fallacious?

(Or do you still think that word is a made up concept that doesn't matter?)

[dwqrf]

[Voltage]

On 2024-09-02 at 11:12 PM, PublikDomain said:

But why do you need bad equipment for other equipment to feel valuable? For example, consider this clip:

Even without having another example to compare it to, and even without knowing the mods included or the level of the enemy shown, I think it's safe to say that this enemy takes a while to be defeated. You don't need a MK1 Kunai in the picture to understand that an enemy taking 54* shots to kill is a lot.

But this is already how the game is today. Your "goal in that equipment" already dies well inside the early Mastery Ranks. We can all look for ourselves at the official usage stats to see how people actually progress through their equipment, and in those stats you can plainly see new players as early as MR7 starting to use Kuva weapons, the good ones of which remaining competitively dominant all the way up to the Legendary ranks. Even my MR5 test account has a Lich, so it can be done even sooner than MR7 - as we see in the data.

(Blame DE's terrible site for the formatting.)

So if the concern is for the "Mastery Rank System", well, it's already kinda #*!%ed. Not only is it #*!%ed as soon as players get to a high enough MR to grab the best whatever and never use anything else, players can also skip the whole thing and buy just about any mod or weapon or frame -if not from DE themselves then from other players. So it's doubly #*!%ed when you can just bypass it.

For something to be "good", you need to be able to compare it to something that is "bad". Comparative representation of performance requires some sort of evolution within the traits of the weapon. The reason this gets muddy is because AoE has always been the generally dominant flavor, but for several years now, this has remained unchecked, and we continuously get more changes that weaken enemies (which creates even more AoE options). Warframe has always struggled in this department. It could be Thermal Sunder Razorwing Blitz Titania, Maiming Strike Scoliac, Synoid Simulor Mirage, Castanas Link Trinity nuke, or it could even go as far back as Saryn Miasma nuke with the Arcane Chlora helmet for reduced Power Duration. Things have gotten wildly out of hand since Warframe Revised in 2020 though, and this has gone unchecked so long that there is an entire generation of Warframe player that expects this gameplay. This absolutely screws DE on how to handle this now, and we're now seeing the consequences consistently as new content is added. Incarnons are just one of many examples. We have considerably less consequences as players in most missions as time goes on, and more and more of the game allows "having your cake and eating it too". This generally creates a toxic environment within the Arsenal choices players gravitate towards. 

Your mention of progression, Mastery, and the example of Mastery Rank 7 players using Kuva gear is precisely part of what I described above. The game has a decade worth of content. However, DE is always pushing players through the game to the latest update, so there are many things accessible to players at way too early of a stage. Duviri, Incarnons, Adversary weapons, Galvanized Mods, Archon Shards, many Arcanes, and quite a few other systems and rewards are accessible way too early into the game. This exacerbates how players ignore equipment, as a decade worth of power-creep is often way too accessible, so you're bypassing multiple years of weapon progression. 

The way you address all of this is doing a Mastery Rank and Progression 2.0 update. Not only does every weapon and its associated acquisition need to be audited, but so does the point in the game a player unlocks it. The best example here is Helminth. This is a controversial mechanic for how it affects the health of Warframe kits and mission performance, but the allowance to buy the segment from the market ahead of when you're supposed to have access to this is completely unnecessary. It was already bad enough that the Mastery Rank lock was severely lowered before the system was introduced in Heart of Deimos. Now, as much as I'd like to see this approach taken, I don't see it happening becuase it's already too late, and I don't see DE locking rewards to ensure things like Incarnons are only for players at the end of the game's current progression. Likewise, such an update might kill the game as we've now created an audience that expects a massive lack in progression and the allowance to skip most of the game internally (without spending, I understand spending money to skip things is a monetization decision). As much depth as Warframe has, rewarding players for approaching the game in a brainless manner and allow the complete ignorance of mechanics erodes all hope for equipment to not be ignored so often.

On 2024-09-02 at 11:12 PM, PublikDomain said:

Not to mention that if new weapons always being good is somehow going to discourage players from acquiring these good new weapons, then what about when bad new weapons are added now? Were you excited to progress to the Shaku? It really doesn't look like it, it looks like you did the same thing we all do with the Shaku: you grinded it out even though it isn't particularly good, got your 3k Mastery, and haven't used it since.

But if the Shaku were good then maybe you'd use it like your Ninkondi.

I completely understand where you're coming from with this example, but it's not exactly a good one. Shaku released shortly after base Ninkondi (Update 18.1 vs Update 17.4). Both weapons were eye candy for the (at the time new) stance, but Ninkondi was a superior option because it was 100% base Electricity while Shaku was 100% base Impact. I'm over-simplifying for the sake of comparison, omitting things such as the old mechanics of Maiming Strike, Blood Rush, Condition Overload, and several other nuances about how the game was played then. Ninkondi was changed later on (as well as Ninkondi Prime's release and changes) in a much more substantial way than Shaku. Shaku has never been good, because it's never been the best Nunchuck. If it were the best Nunchuck, I'd bother using it. It's the same for Praedos. I would use a different Tonfa if any of them offered a worthwhile reason to use them. The only reason I would use Telos Boltace again if they un-nerfed Stormpath.

On 2024-09-02 at 11:12 PM, PublikDomain said:

I'd agree with this summary. But while it is complicated, I don't think it needs to result in a clash. On the topic of gating rewards, EDA/Netracells do it really well: you can get the same drops in Netracells, or you can accelerate your progress by doing the harder EDA. No one is locked out. Conjunction Survival also did it very well, with a harder node that gives more drops. So it's possible to have challenge mode rewards that don't gate easy players out entirely.

It doesn't need to result in a clash, but it will. I've been playing the game for 9 years now, and as I've grown as a player, I've noticed that this is a fact. No, EDA/Netracells aren't doing it well, because if you haven't noticed, Assassination hasn't been in the pool for a very long time, and we've already seen DE nerfing modifiers. A major portion of this playerbase complains until anything remotely gated is undermined and made closer to a state of being trivial. The closest thing we have to properly gated rewards are all quite poorly implemented, such as EDA and Eidolon Arcanes. When I talk about gating, I talk about actually locking players who aren't there yet out of the rewards. Archon Shards and Arcane Energize aren't gated in that sense. Again, I see where you're coming from, but my opinion resides in the fact that we don't get repeatable content that's often valued, because the rewards are too saturated from the start to be worth farming duplicates. Items that are valued as duplicates are often done artificially like Archon Shards, and these feel more like a chore than a reward. What I'd like to see with truly gated rewards is stuff like Trials. It's not a popular addition, but it'd bring value to playing something multiple times.

In the end, this topic has many valid responses from both sides of the fence, but the game is ultimately failing at properly guiding a player through the ranks of the Arsenal, and this creates a wide, yet shallow experience with gear and powercreep, to the point where you have players like OP (validly) feeling like the game is awesome, but also a joke.

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

For something to be "good", you need to be able to compare it to something that is "bad".

If I give you 100, do you know how good it is? No. Like, 100 whats? Dollars? Cents? Damage? Grains of rice? But if I tell you that you can buy a PS5 with 100, now do you know how good 100 is? Yes. I don't need to tell you that the guy next to you only has 3 for you to know that 100 is good. You can determine that 100 is "good" without having anything "bad" to compare it to.

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

The reason this gets muddy is because AoE has always been the generally dominant flavor, but for several years now, this has remained unchecked, and we continuously get more changes that weaken enemies (which creates even more AoE options). Warframe has always struggled in this department. It could be Thermal Sunder Razorwing Blitz Titania, Maiming Strike Scoliac, Synoid Simulor Mirage, Castanas Link Trinity nuke, or it could even go as far back as Saryn Miasma nuke with the Arcane Chlora helmet for reduced Power Duration. Things have gotten wildly out of hand since Warframe Revised in 2020 though, and this has gone unchecked so long that there is an entire generation of Warframe player that expects this gameplay. This absolutely screws DE on how to handle this now, and we're now seeing the consequences consistently as new content is added. Incarnons are just one of many examples. We have considerably less consequences as players in most missions as time goes on, and more and more of the game allows "having your cake and eating it too". This generally creates a toxic environment within the Arsenal choices players gravitate towards. 

I know! That's what I'm saying! And I think it would be good if this were addressed.

There should not be a dominant flavor.

Enemies should be able to be strong when it's appropriate to achieve the intended gameplay experience.

AoE should have balancing factors.

The resulting AoE gameplay shouldn't be the only gameplay anyone expects.

We shouldn't need balancing tools like Incarnons or Rivens or Augments to make bad things good.

We shouldn't have gameplay without consequences.

Our arsenal selections shouldn't be toxic.

And you're never going to address any of this if you want to keep the vertical gear progression that's helping create these issues in the first place!

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Shaku has never been good, because it's never been the best Nunchuck. If it were the best Nunchuck, I'd bother using it.

Which is my whole point. You'd suggested that people would be "discouraged" from getting good new weapons, but do you think people are encouraged to go out and farm or pay for or use bad weapons? We know that they're already discouraged from using these bad weapons as we can see from the usage rates pulled straight from the game's database. And because so much of it is bad, we end up with that "wide, yet shallow experience with gear and powercreep" you mention that only results in a limited arsenal and limited mechanics.

[Voltage]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

If I give you 100, do you know how good it is? No. Like, 100 whats? Dollars? Cents? Damage? Grains of rice? But if I tell you that you can buy a PS5 with 100, now do you know how good 100 is? Yes. I don't need to tell you that the guy next to you only has 3 for you to know that 100 is good. You can determine that 100 is "good" without having anything "bad" to compare it to.

I know! That's what I'm saying! And I think it would be good if this were addressed.

There should not be a dominant flavor.

Enemies should be able to be strong when it's appropriate to achieve the intended gameplay experience.

AoE should have balancing factors.

The resulting AoE gameplay shouldn't be the only gameplay anyone expects.

We shouldn't need balancing tools like Incarnons or Rivens or Augments to make bad things good.

We shouldn't have gameplay without consequences.

Our arsenal selections shouldn't be toxic.

And you're never going to address any of this if you want to keep the vertical gear progression that's helping create these issues in the first place!

Which is my whole point. You'd suggested that people would be "discouraged" from getting good new weapons, but do you think people are encouraged to go out and farm or pay for or use bad weapons? We know that they're already discouraged from using these bad weapons as we can see from the usage rates pulled straight from the game's database. And because so much of it is bad, we end up with that "wide, yet shallow experience with gear and powercreep" you mention that only results in a limited arsenal and limited mechanics.

I feel like you're looking at this discussion way too literally in the use of vocabulary instead of the way this game works and how it is approached by both players and developers. The whole reason I wrote my previous comments was to explain why there are players like OP that feel the game is being held back by a lack of difficulty, but simultaneously why that is also so appealing for so many. We can go back and forth on abstract analogies or hypothetical balance improvements, but that's just not how things are. For a weapon like Torid Incarnon to be valued as "really good", it needs weaker gear by comparison (and there are plenty of similar weapons that are strictly weaker). There's no way around it.

It doesn't matter how you approach your Arsenal or why you feel it's fine if things were more homogenized, the reality is people value Verglas Prime because 99% of the Sentinel weapons are worse, and it kept its Riven Disposition because those don't get adjustment. If the Artax had the stats of Tenet Glaxion and chained, Verglas Prime would have 0 hype around it, the Rivens wouldn't be expensive, and nobody would care, even though in your ideal vacuum, Verglas Prime would still be "good" by the metric of "getting by" in content (which by the way is a lower and lower bar as you acquire gear as a player and DE adds more powercreep).

We see this already, but when you homogenize the damage output, effective range and ease of use is prioritized instead. This is why the Ocucor with Sentient Surge is so good. The damage itself doesn't matter, because it offers a mechanic no other beam weapon can come close to.

People really need to realize that Warframe's greatest strength in weapon choice is mechanical gimmicks and interesting interactions. The actual "damage" part of gear was figured out a long time ago. Usage charts just show how many players prioritize accessibility, laziness, or both. The only way you're going to disperse usage metrics is properly pacing a players' weapon power early in the game (Xoris and Broken War are massively used because they are given extremely early and dwarf so many weapons at that stage of the game), gating the most powerful equipment to the highest ranks of players exclusively (outside of monetization decisions), and outright removing all the stuff that enables lazy gameplay.

Vertical progression is also not the problem here. I don't buy that. The reason it has failed in Warframe is because this playerbase can't handle the enemies scaling the way our player does. Making sure nobody is left behind is why balance is so rotten, because Warframe caters to the lowest common denominator in most content. That has resulted in the loss of Trials, the erosion of the value of those Arcanes from Eidolons, it ruined Railjack, co-op teamplay, the gameplay segment of clans, Arbitrations, and so much more over the years. This is a decision DE has made a long time ago, and you're better off just enjoying the ride for what it is like I have.

If everything is good, nothing is good. That is where we are at. There is honestly nothing wrong with most of the game's maximum power, but how attainable it is. The real tragedy is how early on in this game a player can get an Incarnon adapter on weapons such as Burston, Dual Toxocyst or Torid, Arcane Energize, and Tauforged Archon Shards. The disparity in power between different Arsenal choices isn't actually the problem, it's several layered issues about the way the game is designed and who it's now designed for.

Edited September 5 by Voltage

[RichardKam]

49分钟前 , Voltage 说:

I feel like you're looking at this discussion way too literally in the use of vocabulary instead of the way this game works and how it is approached by both players and developers. The whole reason I wrote my previous comments was to explain why there are players like OP that feel the game is being held back by a lack of difficulty, but simultaneously why that is also so appealing for so many. We can go back and forth on abstract analogies or hypothetical balance improvements, but that's just not how things are. For a weapon like Torid Incarnon to be valued as "really good", it needs weaker gear by comparison (and there are plenty of similar weapons that are strictly weaker). There's no way around it.

It doesn't matter how you approach your Arsenal or why you feel it's fine if things were more homogenized, but the reality is people value Verglas Prime because 99% of the Sentinel weapons are worse, and it kept its Riven Disposition because those don't get adjustment. If the Artax had the stats of Tenet Glaxion and chained, Verglas Prime would have 0 hype around it, the Rivens wouldn't be expensive, and nobody would care, even though in your ideal vacuum, Verglas Prime would still be "good" by the metric of "getting by" in content (which by the way is a lower and lower bar as you acquire gear as a player and DE adds more powercreep).

We see this already, but when you homogenize the damage output, effective range and ease of use is prioritized instead. This is why the Ocucor with Sentient Surge is so good. The damage itself doesn't matter, because it offers a mechanic no other beam weapon can come close to.

People really need to realize that Warframe's greatest strength in weapon choice is mechanical gimmicks and interesting interactions. The actual "damage" part of gear was figured out a long time ago. Usage charts just show how many players prioritize accessibility, laziness, or both. The only way you're going to disperse usage metrics is properly pacing a players' weapon power early in the game (Xoris and Broken War are massively used because they are given extremely early and dwarf so many weapons at that stage of the game), gating the most powerful equipment to the highest ranks of players exclusively (outside of monetization decisions), and outright removing all the stuff that enables lazy gameplay.

Vertical progression is also not the problem here. I don't buy that. The reason it has failed in Warframe is because this playerbase can't handle the enemies scaling the way our player does. Making sure nobody is left behind is why balance is so rotten, because Warframe caters to the lowest common denominator in most content. That has resulted in the loss of Trials, the erosion of the value of those Arcanes, it ruined Railjack, it has ruined the gameplay segment of clans, it ruined Arbitrations, and so much more.

If everything is good, nothing is good. That is where we are at. There is honestly nothing wrong with most of the game's maximum power, but how attainable it is. The real tragedy is how early on in this game a player can get an Incarnon adapter on weapons such as Burston, Dual Toxocyst or Torid, Arcane Energize, and Tauforged Archon Shards. The disparity in power between different Arsenal choices isn't actually the problem, it's several layered issues about the way the game is designed and who it's now designed for.

I would like to supplement that the game is evolving, so the problem of "how easy it is to attain the most powerful gears" cannot be solved permanently per se.

Back in the day the most powerful stuff was Kuva variants, and there were people who struggled with level 5 Lich because they were one-shot by their kuva tonkor. Moving forward we have archon shards and archon hunt. People said archon shard is the most endgame and powerful gear and archon hunt was too time gated and too difficult and stuff. Today no one really cares anymore, not even those who complained feverishly, because we have incarnon and netracell and EDA. Pretty soon we will have even more stuff, more powerful gears to play with, and the less powerful, like kuva variants, even though they were still very strong, were made more accessible to most players.

SP Circuit kind of solved this issue by isolating itself in a pocket universe, while giving you decree as its own vertical progression.

In short, there is no "most powerful gears" because the pole is moving after every update. I am not really familiar with GaaS and I don't know if there are other games that have 10 years of progression as a source of reference.

[dwqrf]

Il y a 2 heures, PublikDomain a dit :

If I give you 100, do you know how good it is? No. Like, 100 whats? Dollars? Cents? Damage? Grains of rice? But if I tell you that you can buy a PS5 with 100, now do you know how good 100 is? Yes. I don't need to tell you that the guy next to you only has 3 for you to know that 100 is good. You can determine that 100 is "good" without having anything "bad" to compare it to.

So with 100 you can buy a PS5.

But with 100 you can also buy one grain of rice.

How do you sell me the idea that your PS5 has any value ? I have something to compare it too.

You point at a bekker saying it's good.

Edited September 5 by dwqrf