Shield Arcanes - Give Shields Damage Resistance

[ShinyShaymin]

Proposed Addition: Create arcanes that increase damage resistance of shield values. 

Address problem: Shield tanks are noodles because shield only has 50% damage reduction, which is equivalent to 300 armor. 

Justification: Health tanks have damage resistance options like Arcane Guardian (silver rarity), Arcane Ultimatum (gold rarity), Arcane Tanker (gold rarity), and Arcane Reaper (platinum rarity). 

[Voltage]

Do we really need more survivability creep? We already have shield gating and now Overguard. Also, there's only like 3 gamemodes where dying even has real consequences...

[Fallopia]

Arcane Aegis

[Zakkhar]

55 minutes ago, ShinyShaymin said:

Address problem: Shield tanks are noodles because shield only has 50% damage reduction, which is equivalent to 300 armor. 

Have you ever head about Shield Gate? It can tank inifinite amount od damage.

Also you can totally affect your Shield damage reduction with Adaptation.

[Quest]

Could be nice

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, ShinyShaymin said:

Address problem: Shield tanks are noodles because shield only has 50% damage reduction, which is equivalent to 300 armor. 

Shield hp weakness is (more than) counterbalanced by having a shield gate.  The only serious problem shields have is being bypassed completely by toxin damage, and adding more DR to them won't help with that at all.

I'm not totally against the proposal anyway.  Although I'd think DE might not see a need to add the potential for ultra high DR on some frames on top of gating, natural regen, and lots of fast restore options.

[KitMeHarder]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

Do we really need more survivability creep? We already have shield gating and now Overguard.

It's not like it's truly in addition to. It's just an alternative way to play.

We have ability tanking, overguard tanking, shield gating, health tanking, and shield tanking. If you're ability tanking, you're not building shields. If you're shield tanking, you're very likely not building armor/health. If you're a health tanking Grendal, you're not putting on Primed Redirection. If you're a shield gating Saryn, you're not putting on Primed Vigor. Etc...

What they're asking for is a power side-grade, not power creep. Most frames build for one type of tanking only. You're not going to waste an entire arcane slot just for some measly shield DR on a frame like Dagath, Dante, Rhino, Loki, etc....

[Voltage]

19 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

It's not like it's truly in addition to. It's just an alternative way to play.

We have ability tanking, overguard tanking, shield gating, health tanking, and shield tanking. If you're ability tanking, you're not building shields. If you're shield tanking, you're very likely not building armor/health. If you're a health tanking Grendal, you're not putting on Primed Redirection. If you're a shield gating Saryn, you're not putting on Primed Vigor. Etc...

What they're asking for is a power side-grade, not power creep. Most frames build for one type of tanking only. You're not going to waste an entire arcane slot just for some measly shield DR on a frame like Dagath, Dante, Rhino, Loki, etc....

We're not playing Warframe in a vacuum. These systems are often, if not always used in combination. I'd agree with you if this was a long time ago. If you're picking a single survivability mechanic and ignoring the rest, you have nobody but to blame yourself for struggling. Gone are the days of selecting Mag, Rhino, Trinity, or Inaros for hard-stuck flavors of survivability. We now have Shield Gating, Catalyzing Shields, Brief Respite, Augur Mod set, Overguard, Dante, Secondary Fortification, Pillage, Rolling Guard, Rakta Dark Dagger and so many options that you're going to end up using in tandem with each other.

So yes, this suggestion is survivability creep. In order for such a mechanic to be worth using anywhere in the current landscape of how Warframe plays, it will be "creep". You're really not fooling anyone with the word "alternative" or "side-grade". Overguard is honestly already pushing the envelope with where it's being tacked on to supplement the ineptitude to properly balance the existing core eHP system for both players and enemies.

Edited August 12 by Voltage

[DontRunWScissors]

8 hours ago, ShinyShaymin said:

Proposed Addition: Create arcanes that increase damage resistance of shield values. 

Address problem: Shield tanks are noodles because shield only has 50% damage reduction, which is equivalent to 300 armor. 

Justification: Health tanks have damage resistance options like Arcane Guardian (silver rarity), Arcane Ultimatum (gold rarity), Arcane Tanker (gold rarity), and Arcane Reaper (platinum rarity). 

The difference between shields and health is if you restore shields quickly, you're effectively immortal. If you restore health quickly, you're immortal until something does more damage than your total EHP in a single hit. Shields already scale far better than health, and they really don't need the extra buff. If you want to shield tank instead of spamming shieldgate run Adaptation or any other DR ability and you'll get the same result.

[KitMeHarder]

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

These systems are often, if not always used in combination.

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

We now have Shield Gating, Catalyzing Shields, Brief Respite, Augur Mod set, Overguard, Dante, Secondary Fortification, Pillage, Rolling Guard, Rakta Dark Dagger and so many options that you're going to end up using in tandem with each other.

I highly disagree. If you're investing to such a degree into multiple tanking methods, then you're just wasting your loadout and it's offensive potential. What countless frames are you heavily investing into multiple tanking types? Cause I call BS. And no, slapping Augur Reach onto a health tank build is not "investing into multiple" tank types, as that build just wanted max range regardless to the set. (True shieldgate tanking gives you 1+ seconds and is always available on demand.)

I have a whole like, one build that truly utilizes 2 tanking types off the top of my head, and that's only because there really wasn't much else of value left to build for. Kullervo, Styanax, Dante, etc... aren't built for any EHP. Hildryn has no health or armor (Protea wouldn't be either if I wasn't forced via Archon Vitality). Wisp and Grendel aren't built for shields or shield gating. Revenant, Octavia, Loki, Nyx, Valkyr, etc... have no EHP. Xaku and Khora aren't built for anything but shieldgating. Etc... And I'm not struggling at all. So in your own roundabout words, I don't know how you're struggling and need so many tanking sources?

Tell me. Lets say only OP's suggestion gets added. What non-shield tank build are you dropping one of your 2 arcane slots for it?

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Or alternatively play with other players. If you have a Citrine in your team, you don't need any of this.

Game would be more varied if you had to rely on others, instead of always being able to do everything on your own.

[ShinyShaymin]

>Deleted because I learned how to reply. See next comment. 

Edited August 16 by ShinyShaymin

[ShinyShaymin]

On 2024-08-12 at 2:01 AM, DontRunWScissors said:

The difference between shields and health is if you restore shields quickly, you're effectively immortal. If you restore health quickly, you're immortal until something does more damage than your total EHP in a single hit. Shields already scale far better than health, and they really don't need the extra buff. If you want to shield tank instead of spamming shieldgate run Adaptation or any other DR ability and you'll get the same result.

One of my problems with shield gating is the way you build it. The whole build is centered around losing your shield, then getting it back within the invulnerability period, which means building as little shield as possible. Staying perma-invulnerable by abusing the shieldgate mechanic feels less like tanking and more like cheesing, which was the whole reason Arcane Barrier was reworked into its current state. 

On 2024-08-11 at 9:36 PM, Voltage said:

We're not playing Warframe in a vacuum. These systems are often, if not always used in combination. I'd agree with you if this was a long time ago. If you're picking a single survivability mechanic and ignoring the rest, you have nobody but to blame yourself for struggling. Gone are the days of selecting Mag, Rhino, Trinity, or Inaros for hard-stuck flavors of survivability. We now have Shield Gating, Catalyzing Shields, Brief Respite, Augur Mod set, Overguard, Dante, Secondary Fortification, Pillage, Rolling Guard, Rakta Dark Dagger and so many options that you're going to end up using in tandem with each other.

So yes, this suggestion is survivability creep. In order for such a mechanic to be worth using anywhere in the current landscape of how Warframe plays, it will be "creep". You're really not fooling anyone with the word "alternative" or "side-grade". Overguard is honestly already pushing the envelope with where it's being tacked on to supplement the ineptitude to properly balance the existing core eHP system for both players and enemies.

It's not survivability creep at the level you're implying. Arcanes already exist that give the survivability to health values, so using an arcane slot for shields inherently takes away from health tanking. I'm not ignoring other survivability mechanics, I'm looking at fair alternatives that allow more flexibility for builds. Right now, every single one of my builds uses Adaptation Vitality, and shield is just used to take the first few hits to stack Adaptation. [Insert rick & morty meme - Shield: "What's my purpose?" Warframe: "To stack adaptation."]

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 6 heures, ShinyShaymin a dit :

Shield: "What's my purpose?" Warframe: "To stack adaptation."

What more do you want from them though?

Shields are still shielding your health from being damaged at all until they're regenerated again.

They already do their job very well.

The only frame this behaves in an awkward manner with is Hildryn, as it's both her main defense and her energy.

Edited August 16 by Fred_Avant_2019

[DontRunWScissors]

9 hours ago, ShinyShaymin said:

One of my problems with shield gating is the way you build it. The whole build is centered around losing your shield, then getting it back within the invulnerability period, which means building as little shield as possible. Staying perma-invulnerable by abusing the shieldgate mechanic feels less like tanking and more like cheesing, which was the whole reason Arcane Barrier was reworked into its current state.

Yes, but shield gating and shield tanking are two different things, and shield tanking is quite viable because it has shieldgate as a built-in safeguard, especially since the shield changes that made shield capacity buff your invuln time. The problem with shield tanking is you are required to have some sort of external way of regenerating shields, which also happens to be an issue with shieldgating but it's much more easily resolved because of the low shield capacity abuse. You get easy invuln at the cost of high maintenance, where as shield tanking requires you to be able to restore far more shields to be especially viable, which can only really be done consistently through abilities like pillage and condemn, or the Rakta Dark Dagger. Shield tanking is a very strong option, and imo it's stronger than EHP tanking because of the fact you get wiggle room with the shieldgate, but it's also a very restrictive setup where as shieldgating is more flexible. Also, at high enough levels shield tanking and shield gating become one in the same, the only difference being how big the number is when you refresh it, it's simply a consequence of high level enemies one shotting through your DR. IMO the biggest issue with shield tanking is that shield regen is pretty much just a worthless stat, given that it requires you to not be taking damage to regenerate. DE has addressed this somewhat with the addition of shield regen mods also decreasing the time it takes to start regenerating, but it's not enough to be made viable compared to EHP's constant healing.

TLDR: Shield tanking is similar to EHP tanking because it becomes less effective at higher levels, regardless of the amount of DR you have. It is overly dependent on outside factors to be viable, of these issues, it's ability to mitigate damage is not the problem, and your suggestion doesn't meaningfully address the actual issues with shield tanking, that being that at high levels it just becomes shield gating with a bigger number.

[ShinyShaymin]

On 2024-08-16 at 4:13 AM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

What more do you want from them though?

I want to tank with my shield. I want to stop throwing my shield away in exchange for health pool damage resistance. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2024-08-16 at 3:36 AM, ShinyShaymin said:

One of my problems with shield gating is the way you build it. The whole build is centered around losing your shield, then getting it back within the invulnerability period, which means building as little shield as possible

This... isn't correct anymore. Shield Gating has been adjusted so that the more you have (up to a cap) the more Gate time you get to restore your shields.

So.

Shield Tanking is a concept that isn't prevalent in Warframe simply because it isn't as effective as Shield Gating. Multiple seconds of Invulnerability is genuinely better than Damage Reduction, especially when combined with other functions that can give you yet more seconds of Invulnerability and sometimes abilities or Companion effects that can instantly restore your shields to full (regardless of the total value) to reset that original Gate.

There is a balanced way to make Shield Tanking something that's viable, but it isn't Arcanes. It's mods. In the same way that you can increase Armour for DR on your Health, you could put in mods for DR on your Shields. You could put in more mods that increase Recharge Speed, or decrease the Recharge Delay.

Even if we added those... they won't be used the way you want them to be.

Simply because Shield Gating exists.

Players will take a mod that reduces Delay and increases Charge Speed happily for any frame that doesn't intrinsically have a Shield Regen ability, but also does rely on their Shields rather than their Health to survive. But only because it will make restoring their Shields easier when their other forms of Invulnerability or Regen are not available.

It's a sad state of affairs, I know. I do see your points.

But as long as the Gate exists, and as long as DE keep giving it buffs like 'longer gates for more shield', it's not going to go away. And it's going to make Shield Tanking a worse option all round anyway.

Edited August 17 by Birdframe_Prime

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 2 heures, ShinyShaymin a dit :

I want to tank with my shield. I want to stop throwing my shield away in exchange for health pool damage resistance. 

Ok, but with which frame?

[ShinyShaymin]

On 2024-08-17 at 4:30 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Ok, but with which frame?

Any.

 

On 2024-08-17 at 3:21 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

There is a balanced way to make Shield Tanking something that's viable, but it isn't Arcanes. It's mods. 

We have arcanes for health pool damage resistance. It's not wrong to ask for arcanes that do the same for shield. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, ShinyShaymin said:

We have arcanes for health pool damage resistance. It's not wrong to ask for arcanes that do the same for shield. 

Only wrong at the start. Arcanes are powerful, but they're limited. There is already a very tight group of Arcanes that are actually used by the majority, and putting in more that wouldn't even compete with them isn't helpful to players that want both effects.

Even then before those Arcanes you're talking about existed, we had Mods that did that.

We have Mods even when we don't have access to Arcanes. The whole point is that you first implement the functions via Mods, base functions that set the bar for what should be in the game at the start for every frame.

Then you make strong, optional ones via Arcanes after that, for optimisation and for players to earn after they're used to the base functions.