Remove this standing limit

[GEN-Son_17]

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

Longer grinds, time gates and randomness won't automatically make game interesting. What makes game fun is how you get and what you get.

Actually, the game has an 11+ year tracking that proves this system DOES make the game interesting. Nothing survives, and thrived, on a continuing failed model. DE is doing very right things and, unfortunately, you guys are suggesting very wrong things. 

For context, what you are suggesting is a rush model that makes longevity an unsustainable, unreliable and very cost ineffective system. A live service game would be incredibly underrated water if they attempted to run that way. Warframe is the closest you're going to get...unless very difficult levelling is incorporated in order to stop progression. No one wants that and no one would tolerate that. 

[quxier]

1 minute ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

16 minutes ago, quxier said:

Longer grinds, time gates and randomness won't automatically make game interesting. What makes game fun is how you get and what you get.

Actually, the game has an 11+ year tracking that proves this system DOES make the game interesting. Nothing survives, and thrived, on a continuing failed model. DE is doing very right things and, unfortunately, you guys are suggesting very wrong things. 

For context, what you are suggesting is a rush model that makes longevity an unsustainable, unreliable and very cost ineffective system. A live service game would be incredibly underrated water if they attempted to run that way. Warframe is the closest you're going to get...unless very difficult levelling is incorporated in order to stop progression. No one wants that and no one would tolerate that. 

No. 11+ years proves that system works (more or less) not that makes game interesting. Interesting gear (e.g. frames, weapons), mechanics (e.g. melee combat) and quest makes game interesting.

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm not even agreeing with OP too much. While it can be improved in some ways (not standing limit per se) I'm saying that this alone won't make game great.

[Xzorn]

They won't do it. Like most daily/weekly systems it's intended to normalize gains between hardcore and casuals players.

It actually started with the Focus system. When it came out there was no daily cap and DE freaked out on the numbers some players were pulling. So they capped it to a trivial 30min of play time per day. I'm not sure why it took the Focus system for them to realize there was a massive gap between players.

There was a time useful things dropped in missions. This was also removed for mission complete rewards. Relics, again another way to gate casual vs hardcore players that would use one key for 40 prime parts. Now we have weeklies to further gate gains. Players who invest time found themselves with little to do.

 

2 hours ago, quxier said:

No. 11+ years proves that system works (more or less) not that makes game interesting. Interesting gear (e.g. frames, weapons), mechanics (e.g. melee combat) and quest makes game interesting.

It started with Focus and went into full cap everything mode when Plains of Eidolon released in 2017.

The game used to have a much longer and linear progression system like an older MMO. Now it's play 3 hours a week then do something else.

[trst]

14 hours ago, Xzorn said:

They won't do it. Like most daily/weekly systems it's intended to normalize gains between hardcore and casuals players.

It actually started with the Focus system. When it came out there was no daily cap and DE freaked out on the numbers some players were pulling. So they capped it to a trivial 30min of play time per day. I'm not sure why it took the Focus system for them to realize there was a massive gap between players.

There was a time useful things dropped in missions. This was also removed for mission complete rewards. Relics, again another way to gate casual vs hardcore players that would use one key for 40 prime parts. Now we have weeklies to further gate gains. Players who invest time found themselves with little to do.

 

It started with Focus and went into full cap everything mode when Plains of Eidolon released in 2017.

The game used to have a much longer and linear progression system like an older MMO. Now it's play 3 hours a week then do something else.

It has nothing to do with some player gap. Just how quickly players cleared content DE intended to take weeks to months, not hours. Which is why Focus scared them as it taught DE that there's players who're both capable and willing to finish that system within the first day of its release. 

Without padding like caps and dailies/weeklies players simply finish content too fast. The faster players are the less regular engagement, the fewer purchases, and the quicker they cry "content drought". That's all it really is. 

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, trst said:

It has nothing to do with some player gap. Just how quickly players cleared content DE intended to take weeks to months, not hours. Which is why Focus scared them as it taught DE that there's players who're both capable and willing to finish that system within the first day of its release. 

Without padding like caps and dailies/weeklies players simply finish content too fast. The faster players are the less regular engagement, the fewer purchases, and the quicker they cry "content drought". That's all it really is. 

 

The play value of content from my perspective actually got much shorter when introducing those caps. Not longer. Most evident with Plains of Eidolon where they undercut everything. It was better to fish than do bounties. There was no bonus rep, No Doma to get resources and only Wisps to farm for amps.

It was easily the longest grind in the history of the game. If you did it the first month.

Now the gains are much faster. So much that when I came back from 5 years I cleared Diemos, Zaramin and Durviri in 2 weeks. Taking a bit longer for clamps which they now made easier. I plowed 5 years of content Incarons and Primes in 6 weeks. Extrani Labs was no different taking 8 whole days.

If it is intended to stall. It doesn't really work compared to the old system of simply playing the game and getting steady gains.
I should mention it wasn't all about content either. It was economic. I don't think DE liked players selling progression to other players.

[trst]

9 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

The play value of content from my perspective actually got much shorter when introducing those caps. Not longer. Most evident with Plains of Eidolon where they undercut everything. It was better to fish than do bounties. There was no bonus rep, No Doma to get resources and only Wisps to farm for amps.

It was easily the longest grind in the history of the game. If you did it the first month.

Now the gains are much faster. So much that when I came back from 5 years I cleared Diemos, Zaramin and Durviri in 2 weeks. Taking a bit longer for clamps which they now made easier. I plowed 5 years of content Incarons and Primes in 6 weeks. Extrani Labs was no different taking 8 whole days.

If it is intended to stall. It doesn't really work compared to the old system of simply playing the game and getting steady gains.
I should mention it wasn't all about content either. It was economic. I don't think DE liked players selling progression to other players.

Without the caps those farms would be done within days. Taking a week or two to clear them is still longer than the alternative. Plus the real farms is in the Arcane grinds which always take longer, but again without standing caps they'd take a day or two assuming DE would retain the pity shops with no caps. It's literally stalling things more as even with reduced gains players would still finish it within days.

And I don't know how you'd think DE doesn't like players selling other's progression. That's literally what every single trade good is. Standing items like gems and fish are still tradable. As are a lot of the items from their shops like mods, arcanes, and some weapons.

[MrInubis]

33 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

The play value of content from my perspective actually got much shorter when introducing those caps. Not longer. Most evident with Plains of Eidolon where they undercut everything. It was better to fish than do bounties. There was no bonus rep, No Doma to get resources and only Wisps to farm for amps.

Thanks to the caps you dont have to live in a content to have meaningfull progress. There is a lot of different reps to grind now. It is better this way. 2 top  deimos bounties let you max out on rep. Thanks to this you can move on to different content. Without caps they would have to nerf the gains hard. Prices would also have to be adjusted. Since im casual its a lot better system for player like me. I rarely have more than 2h to play a day you know.

Edited September 10 by kuciol

[TotalEnigma85]

if you have 8+ hours of free time every day then this would benefit you  the most

but if you play maybe 2h a day then way less but it would help you a lot still in progress then having standing cap , within 2h you can farm more then cap ( depending on MR )

besides if you dont play for 5 days and next day you have  full free time then standing cap screws you over , no cap would allow you to catch up

i am for no cap  , there is plenty other things to do in warframe and if players want to focus  on one thing to max it then they should have this choice

i dont get it why other players are against it , why you care ? others want the freedom and you are against it .. pathetic

dont want to max 1 thing ? then dont do it

others want to play like this ? let them play , leave them alone , what is this dark souls player base mentality ? " you have to play like its or it does not count if you win "

 

[MrInubis]

7 minutes ago, TotalEnigma85 said:

i dont get it why other players are against it , why you care ? others want the freedom and you are against it .. pathetic

Because we understand that prices and gains would have to be adjusted accordingly so you wont finish new content the first day. I can only lose with the "no cap" aproach.

Edited September 10 by kuciol

[Xzorn]

53 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Thanks to the caps you dont have to live in a content to have meaningfull progress. There is a lot of different reps to grind now. It is better this way. 2 top  deimos bounties let you max out on rep. Thanks to this you can move on to different content. Without caps they would have to nerf the gains hard. Prices would also have to be adjusted. Since im casual its a lot better system for player like me. I rarely have more than 2h to play a day you know.

 

This is where the gap normalizing comes in though. I would ask. "What different content?".

Ever since DE started their Rep island system. Once you're done. You're done. Because they've neglected the 'Core' game. It's not very fun anymore. DE insists on making entirely new content instead of making new content but allowing current systems and game mechanics help carry some of that weight. This is why a game like Path of Exile could drop content every 3 months and Warframe takes years for 2 weeks of content which half the time ends up forgotten.

Not to say PoE has done a great job with content since they started PoE2 but it's the method used. You say you only have 2h a day to play and yet I only play 3-4h a week compared to 5-6 hours a day because there's nothing else to do. I burned through 5 years in no time and now just hit the weeklies and log.

There's no intermediate spot. The game is entirely based on low play time.

[MrInubis]

4 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

This is where the gap normalizing comes in though. I would ask. "What different content?"

Because you have done the new content as it was introduced. Bring new player now and see how much he has to do. There is so many different factions to progress through. PoE has resets every 3 months, its in no way comparable since you start from scrach every time and people are also done after a month. Im against removing the cap because i can only lose on that transaction. 

 

8 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Ever since DE started their Rep island system. Once you're done. You're done. Because they've neglected the 'Core' game.

You have the core game on the way. The systems are more integrated than you think, its just you were already done when new thing came out. You unlock new factions in sequence. You look at things from perspective of somebody that has already done everything and completely neglects that other people are just starting.

[trst]

30 minutes ago, TotalEnigma85 said:

i dont get it why other players are against it , why you care ? others want the freedom and you are against it .. pathetic

dont want to max 1 thing ? then dont do it

others want to play like this ? let them play , leave them alone , what is this dark souls player base mentality ? " you have to play like its or it does not count if you win "

Because I'd prefer the game to not have to resort to the alternative padding methods. If we didn't have caps for padding we'd need systems like actually rare drops, mandatory repeated farms (required resource stinks, durability, etc), or all gear having rng stats.

And while it is all a matter of preference you can't really blame anyone for wanting to advocate for their own preferences.

[TotalEnigma85]

you need 240000 standing to max Ostron Cetus , and MR 8 gets 20k standing cap , that is 12 days to max , + you need to spend on fishing and mining to get gear to farm parts so + 2 days tops

if there was no Cap then it would take less then 14 days for sure , maybe 4 tops if you pushed it , but so what  , let them change how much we get standing and that's it

players leave because there is nothing interesting to do , i am mr 33 and  i log every week for few hours to get shards , 70k kuva and play circuit a bit , 

i lost players day 1 because how long building  warframes took , they didnt even got to standing cap part information

point is it depends how much you like this game and the more you like it then you will forgive the rubbish parts it has and you will stay and play with hopes it will get improved/fixed

 

[trst]

2 hours ago, TotalEnigma85 said:

you need 240000 standing to max Ostron Cetus , and MR 8 gets 20k standing cap , that is 12 days to max , + you need to spend on fishing and mining to get gear to farm parts so + 2 days tops

if there was no Cap then it would take less then 14 days for sure , maybe 4 tops if you pushed it , but so what  , let them change how much we get standing and that's it

You can't just "let them" play like that as that's not how a successful game can operate. Again some form of padding is a requirement between slowing down players and encouraging regular engagement. 

So if you really wanted caps removed then it has to come with a different method of padding out content. It's very much a monkey's paw situation. 

Edited September 11 by trst

[proevilz]

To all the people claiming its a player retention strategy, and thats why they shouldn't remove it...

I don't know about you, but me and my friends have never thought about coming back to play the game just for it's standing component. I've had my account since 2014 ish and have played on and off over the years, (heavily in the later).

I'm MR17 now, and I still haven't completed all standing grinds.

So whilst in paper it might sound valid to call it a player retention strategy, I have a feeling that for the majority of players, this isn't what is retaining them. 

I feel its disingenuous to cite their history of the game being successful for so long as "proof" when it doesn't prove that its standing specifically, as opposed to new weapons, new quests, new areas, new mechanics and general game advancements being the core retainer. 

I've "quit" or took big extended breaks, despite standing cap being in the game. 

Go figure.

Edited September 12 by proevilz

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, proevilz said:

I don't know about you, but me and my friends have never thought about coming back to play the game just for it's standing component.

(emphasis mine above)
The point isn't that standing is the only reason you come back to the game but a reason to come back to the game.

It gives you something that you literally cannot do in just one or two days.  It is something that you have to come back to the game day after day after day after day to finish it off, especially if you're after any of the items in the various shops.

It is something that works in conjunction with all of the other daily/weekly tasks that are all designed to get you to come back day after day over a longer period of time.

 

DE doesn't want players to just complete everything day 1 of an update drop and then forget the game exists until the next update drop.  They want you playing at least a week or more to get things done.

And in that regard the daily standing cap has been quite successful.

It has also proven to be successful to largely shut up players yelling about content droughts and the like because they can no longer grind through an entire update syndicate in 1 or 2 days and then whinge and moan and complain about absolutely nothing to do in warframe.

1 hour ago, proevilz said:

I've "quit" or took big extended breaks, despite standing cap being in the game. 

Go figure.

Ahh yes, the good old "It didn't work for me so it must not work at all!" argument.

Thing is that it has been proven in this game to help with player retention.  And again it's not the only player retention method that exists in a vacuum it is supported by all the other daily/weekly methods of keeping players signing in repeatedly.

Finally it's not meant to the be the magical player retention method that stops a player from leaving the game at all, it's just meant to slow them down so that they play a week or so...which is long enough for some activities to start to become semi-regular habits that they'll continue playing for longer than they would otherwise.

And here's a little secret: Not all player retention methods are designed to work on all players nor do they all work in the same way or have the same goal, which is why games have many types of player retention methods.
And if this player retention model wasn't working then DE would have scrapped it instead of augmenting it and putting it on pretty much everything.

[Q_M_B]

Its to protect players from a degenerate grind, supposedly . But then you got the entrati and zariman which give tokens for bounties instead of straight rep...

[MrInubis]

8 hours ago, Q_M_B said:

Its to protect players from a degenerate grind, supposedly . But then you got the entrati and zariman which give tokens for bounties instead of straight rep...

And that is nice middle ground. You can farm it when you have more time and you wont burn through entire expansion within 12h. Also thanks to standing cap you can get reasonable amount of standing on daily basis, no reason to reduce the gains. Its a win-win.

[proevilz]

17 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

(emphasis mine above)
The point isn't that standing is the only reason you come back to the game but a reason to come back to the game.

It gives you something that you literally cannot do in just one or two days.  It is something that you have to come back to the game day after day after day after day to finish it off, especially if you're after any of the items in the various shops.

It is something that works in conjunction with all of the other daily/weekly tasks that are all designed to get you to come back day after day over a longer period of time.

It is talked about as if it IS. Like it's the holy grail, that its 'proof' (when no proof has been provided) 

Yeah, you can't do it in one or two days, but there is no proof that people come back to the game JUST for that specific component. How do you know they're coming back for that, _specifically_ and not something else in the game?

You don't.
You can't know.

In a similar vein to your quote statement below - "so because it works for you to make you want to return, therefor it must work for everyone!!"

17 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Ahh yes, the good old "It didn't work for me so it must not work at all!" argument.

'I said I don't know about you, but for me...'  How in the hell does that translate as it doesn't work for me, so I KNOW doesn't work for anyone else? when it's literally in the sentence where I acknoweldge I don't know about someone elses experience. 

You're gas lighting at best.
 

[Chollynn]

The reputation cap is there so you can't max a faction on day1 and this way it doesn't unbalance the trade system. Imagine you can farm endless number of mods, weapons and other rewards and trade them. The market would be meaningless in a matter of days. Right now I'm Legendary rank 2 and I can farm 32k repu per day + syndicate marks. It is more than enough. If I would be DE I would even nerf the amount of repu cap that the system gives above a certain rank so it won't go into absolute madness number or even cap the cap increase around 30k.

[MrInubis]

46 minutes ago, proevilz said:

Yeah, you can't do it in one or two days, but there is no proof that people come back to the game JUST for that specific component. How do you know they're coming back for that, _specifically_ and not something else in the game?

You dont understand something here. Players dont come back for this component, they come back because it exists. It forces you to play again tomorow since you cant get everything today.

[proevilz]

Just now, kuciol said:

You dont understand something here. Players dont come back for this component, they come back because it exists. It forces you to play again tomorow since you cant get everything today.

Still doesn't prove that they come back for it, as oppose to coming back for everything else the game offers, and then just doing standing because its there alongside everything else

[MrInubis]

Just now, proevilz said:

Still doesn't prove that they come back for it, as oppose to coming back for everything else the game offers, and then just doing standing because its there alongside everything else

Nobody ever said they come back for it, just that they come back because of it.

[proevilz]

10 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Nobody ever said they come back for it, just that they come back because of it.

I mean, you're saying the same thing effectively. 

If they come back, and do not interact with the standing system, how does that prove they came back 'because of it' ?

 

[dwqrf]

il y a une heure, proevilz a dit :

You don't.
You can't know.

il y a 1 minute, proevilz a dit :

 how does that prove they came back 'because of it' ?

How do you prove they didn't come back because of it ?
Fact is, a lot of people come back. And they play relatively short sessions but over extented period of time.