Furax incarnon and the problem of incarnon weapons with useless effects.

[Pilgrift]

Does anyone else think that the special effect of the Furax Incarnon upgrade is just a bad joke or am I missing something?

Its special mechanic when obtaining its Incarnon form generates a pool of fire on heavy hits against the ground, but I can't understand why this mechanic is so useless in terms of damage and how to activate the effect. Who thought of this? Can Incarnon that need a specific upgrade in their evolutions be remodeled or do you have to settle for what you have?🥺🤓

[Tsoe]

seismic mod and amar set for slam damage i believe and some mele arcanes like afliction or influece is seted up with electricity

Edited September 11 by Tsoe

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Pilgrift said:

the special effect of the Furax Incarnon upgrade

...is 90% Heavy Slam efficiency. That's it.

You might *think* that the Furax Incarnon has some kind of super awesome fire area on Heavy Slams, but this is (functionally) purely visual. It doesn't scale with most mods, it doesn't scale with combo even (despite being part of a heavy attack), it's just a funky visual effect that you can 100% safely ignore.

[Traumtulpe]

By the way the Skana Incarnon is even worse lol. It's Incarnon effect is a tiny, very short AoE blind, but only if you kill with a finisher (and it does terrible finisher damage, and finishers are generally terrible to begin with).

You'd be better off using the Skiajati if you want some kind of effect on finishers, except of course the Skiajati is still bugged with ground finishers. Because fixing bugs doesn't pay the bills (doesn't make the profit go up by 50% every year, to be more truthful, and we need infinite growth to please the investors!).

[Agall]

2 hours ago, Pilgrift said:

Does anyone else think that the special effect of the Furax Incarnon upgrade is just a bad joke or am I missing something?

Its special mechanic when obtaining its Incarnon form generates a pool of fire on heavy hits against the ground, but I can't understand why this mechanic is so useless in terms of damage and how to activate the effect. Who thought of this? Can Incarnon that need a specific upgrade in their evolutions be remodeled or do you have to settle for what you have?🥺🤓

The damage from the heat field on slam scales a lot like Hate incarnon's projectiles with [Furious Javelin]. I find it quite nice, but don't find myself using Furax after selling my go-to riven for it and haven't rolled another one sufficient enough yet.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, Agall said:

The damage from the heat field on slam scales a lot like Hate incarnon's projectiles

It does not. You can deal millions of damage with those projectiles, you cannot with the Heat field.

Here, that is the damage of a Heavy Slam (with my Melee Influence Build):

Note that the damage is in large part reduced due to armor.

Next the damage of the fire area of an identical slam, on respawned enemies:

Less than a thousand damage. Insignificant. And since the damage is so low it can't even break the overguard, it isn't reduced by armor either lol. Make that ~90 damage effectively. It is completely irrelevant.

[Agall]

21 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

It does not. You can deal millions of damage with those projectiles, you cannot with the Heat field.

Here, that is the damage of a Heavy Slam (with my Melee Influence Build):

Note that the damage is in large part reduced due to armor.

Next the damage of the fire area of an identical slam, on respawned enemies:

Less than a thousand damage. Insignificant. And since the damage is so low it can't even break the overguard, it isn't reduced by armor either lol. Make that ~90 damage effectively. It is completely irrelevant.

I didn't know you could run [Furious Javelin] with Wisp.

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Agall said:

I didn't know you could run [Furious Javelin] with Wisp.

Dude, Furious Javelin is a multiplier. What do you think you are going to achieve by multiplying something that does absolutely, utterly and completely irrelevant damage? 100 times 0 is still zero.

[Traumtulpe]

I gave it another try without Melee Influence and without Overguard, to make calculations more accurate and useful:

~3.600.000 Heavy Slam damage.

Resulting in ~430 fire area damage.

Or ~0.01% of the damage of the hit that caused it. Your Furious Javelin buffs your damage by 10000%?

Edited September 11 by Traumtulpe

[Traumtulpe]

I think we can fairly say that the area does zero damage. It's literally 0.0% of the slam.

[Agall]

39 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Dude, Furious Javelin is a multiplier. What do you think you are going to achieve by multiplying something that does absolutely, utterly and completely irrelevant damage? 100 times 0 is still zero.

20 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I think we can fairly say that the area does zero damage. It's literally 0.0% of the slam.

It does just like Hate Icarnon's projectiles and Ack & Brunt, unless you're using [Furious Javelin]. Its not level cap viable damage, but at least SP.

2 hours ago, Agall said:

The damage from the heat field on slam scales a lot like Hate incarnon's projectiles with [Furious Javelin]. 

When you quoted me, you left off the whole point of my comment, lol. I was surprised how viable it made it when I happened to test it, so I'd recommend giving that a test as well. The build I use with Umbra should get to 318% strength with [Molt Augmented] stacks fully up. 20 targets with [Furious Javelin] is realistic too for endurance missions since I imagine you'd want to test it in simulacrum.

Furax Incarnon is something I use occassionally, just not as much since I sold my cc/heat/ele/-eff riven with the right order to get gas/electric for [Melee Influence]. Saving a mod slot helps fit the amalgam mod into it, which is huge QoL. I'd use it more often if I liked any of the fist weapon stances.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

See the thing is, furax was one of my main melees before the incarnon's came out.

Y'all are using it for the incarnon, not for the base weapon but buffed.

This is my main problem with the incarnon system. It replaces weapons, rather than making them used more. Simply, you are using the base variant to get the incarnon, I use the base variant for the base variant.

The furax is one of the few ones, that feels like the same weapon regardless.

Build it for slash, combo count gain, and range or combo pause. Use the Amalgam augment, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Relentless Combination, Saxum Thorax, Primed Pressure Point, Amalgam Organ Shatter, and Gladiator Might. Use melee Influence and spam tennokai when you need bulk damage.

[Zakkhar]

34 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Relentless Combination

You what mate? People use this mod? Imagine slotting this instead of Quickening or Berserker Fury/Gladiator Vice.

35 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Saxum Thorax

With WW already on and Melee Influence? Pass.

38 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Primed Pressure Point,

No CO? Tsk tsk tsk...

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

12 hours ago, Zakkhar said:

You what mate? People use this mod? Imagine slotting this instead of Quickening or Berserker Fury/Gladiator Vice.

With WW already on and Melee Influence? Pass.

No CO? Tsk tsk tsk...

Good calls on the quickening, and CO. I was saying what I was using from memory, and I've been playing this game so long I sometimes forget to about newer build design. I find Relentless ok, because if they are slash procced I can leave them to die.

Saxum Thorax is a way to increase the base Status chance, but more importantly increase the %impact the weapon has a chance of procing. You don't wanna proc anything else. You could use a different impact mod, but I'd rather also get a base SC boost.

Edited September 12 by (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE

[Zakkhar]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Saxum Thorax is a way to increase the base Status chance, but more importantly increase the %impact the weapon has a chance of procing. You don't wanna proc anything else. You could use a different impact mod, but I'd rather also get a base SC boost.

You already get +440% boost from WW. It is additive to Saxum 60. It is not a "base" SC boost like Incarnon Evolutions.

You do not want to proc anything but Impact? Why Melee Influence then? 1. It requires an Electric to proc every 20 seconds 2. It only mirrors Elemental procs, not IPS.

• Eligible status effects that can be spread by Melee Influence include:
  • Primary Elemental ( Cold,  Electricity,  Heat,  Toxin)
  • Secondary Elemental ( Blast,  Corrosive,  Gas,  Magnetic,  Radiation,  Viral)
• Melee Influence cannot spread the following:
  • Physical ( Impact,  Puncture,  Slash)
  •  Void,  Knockdown,  Stagger,  Ragdoll,  Lifted, and  Microwave

4 hours ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I find Relentless ok, because if they are slash procced I can leave them to die.

And without Relentless that is somehow not an option? It doesnt increase the Slash proc damage.

[MrDugan]

On 2024-09-11 at 8:28 AM, Traumtulpe said:

...is 90% Heavy Slam efficiency. That's it.

You might *think* that the Furax Incarnon has some kind of super awesome fire area on Heavy Slams, but this is (functionally) purely visual. It doesn't scale with most mods, it doesn't scale with combo even (despite being part of a heavy attack), it's just a funky visual effect that you can 100% safely ignore.

This is a problem on MANY weapons.  Several weapons tout having some special effect on this or that attack, and then DE set the attack to not interact with most or any mods, which makes it useless.  It's an issue with mods too.  Things like Thunderbolt and Concealed Explosives do useless amounts of damage.  I have always believed that this issue stems from DE not wanting to accidentally create a monster, but not having anyone on their team that can be trusted to thoroughly check for "monster" mod combinations, so they default to things being useless in lieu of checking or sending it without testing and praying.

The Ruvox is in the same boat.  The weapon is bad on its own, then the transform gives it problems for the evolutions to partially fix.  DE loves doing this.  They take a weapon, and rather than make it good and also give it a good gimmick to make it stronger, they make the weapon mid or worse, then give it a gimmick that makes it useable.  Your skill with something like the Perigale is rewarded by it actually having a usable amount of ammo.  Which I could get on any other Sniper that doesn't require headshots to not run out of ammo nearly instantly.

[Famecans]

Fixing this today does not guarantee consistency in the future.
Grouping and listing similar mechanics and skills ensures that all similar skills will receive the same treatment and safeguards against future issues.

I'm going to call this "Temporal Area of Effect Damage" because it's basically an AoE Damage with a duration timer.
I don't know if I'm listing all the weapons and modifiers below, but here's a list of things with temporal AoE:

• Ogris + Nightwatch Napalm.
• Ferrox Secondary Shot.
• Synoid Simulor.
• Alternox Secondary Shot.
• Azima Secondary Shot.
• Catabolyst.
• Gammacor Incarnon Shot.
• Probocys Cernos.
• Castanas Secondary Shot.
• Penta + Napalm Grenades. (This has by far the nicest visuals for elemental effects)
• Pox (It's a toxic cloud unrelated to the weapon's element).
• Ruvox Incarnon Mode Heavy Ground.
• Vitrica Aerial Hit.
• Dual Ichor Incarnon Mode Heavy Ground.
• Zenistar Secondary Shot.
• Caustacyst Heavy Ground.
• Cortege Secondary Shot.
• Residual Boils.
• Residual Viremia.
• Residual Shock.
• Residual Molodor.

Notes:
Some of the above effects cause damage, crowd control, or both.
The AoE Temporal Damage does not depend on targets or enemies to be triggered on the map.
The AoE Temporal Damage is associated with radial or linear zones that remain fixed on the map and these interact with the enemy during the time it is active.
Protea's Turrets is a AoE Temporal Damage ability, Wisp's Electric Mote is not a AoE Temporal Damage ability because it does not interact directly with enemies.
The ground slam melee hit is not a AoE Temporal Damage ability, it can cause temporary damage with special elements such as Electricity or Gaseous Clouds but this is an intrinsic elemental effect of the damage and is not active in the hit area.

 

Edited September 14 by Famecans