De, Would You Finally Remove The Slash Proc From Enemies Please?

[Workaround]

Bleed damage just means you should only play a couple frames unless you are running in a premade. Trinity and Oberon were mentioned. Id include Rhino (immunity) and Nekros (infinite health balls from desecrate).

There are ways around it for frames without these abilities though.. Quick Thinking still works even though they nerfed the rage loop. Equilibrium also solves the problem somewhat. Just means you have to think about what you load out.

[Tsukinoki]

@Workaround

And the problem with the mods you mentioned is that those mods are absurdly rare.

QT only drops from corrupted ancients and is a rare.

Equilibrium is an uncommon from Lephantis.

True you can get them from transmutation but thats like trying to win the lottery.

Neither of those are approachable at all by new players which are hurt the most by bleed. And even quite a few veterans dont have those mods.

[Agent_of_Change]

Different Solution:  Change slash procs so that the ONLY work on ANYONE after shields are gone.  Not on warframes not on enemies.

 

that removes 90% of the problem right there.

[Tsukinoki]

@Agent_of_Change

Agreed. Beyond making sense it doesnt really affect us that much, because the Corpus units die fast enough without shields that bleeding is not that helpful anyway, and it prevents the enemies from stacking enough bleeding to kill a Rhino without ever taking down his shields.

[Starender]

my idea:  50% to 100% shield, bleed proc affect only shield

               25% to 50% shield, bleed proc affect equaly both shield and life

               below 25% shield, bleed proc affect only life

Edited January 21, 2014 by Starender

[[DE]Rebecca]

There have been numerous amazing solution ideas down the path of continued changes to bleed procs. Already, dev majorly reduced Bleed chance of G.Butchers (new player's on Mercury could have been, and often were, a death sentence if proc'ed), and Eviscerators were lowered as well. But, as doomfruit said:

 

"Dying (with full shields) simply because some random Grineer 30 metres away had a lucky throw of the dice is neither fair nor fun."

 

This is a really good point. I think ultimately the shield consideration or a "cap" on how much health can be removed would prevent uncontrollable death like this... but to be discussed further, carry on!

[seiryuo]

Different Solution:  Change slash procs so that the ONLY work on ANYONE after shields are gone.  Not on warframes not on enemies.

 

that removes 90% of the problem right there.

This has been said several times in this thread before.

[EChondo]

I agree, it has been really annoying and tedious to have to sit behind cover 99% of the time when I see a Eviscerator. Also now I'm getting bleed proc when fighting Corpus?!

 

Really not understanding this whole system. I would love to see bleed proc just completely removed from the game, it only adds frustration and slows the game down.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love challenges, but this isn't fun or difficult, it's punishing.

 

Edited January 21, 2014 by EChondo

[Archistopheles]

There have been numerous amazing solution ideas down the path of continued changes to bleed procs.

 

~snip~

 

Thanks for acknowledging the thread first off.

 

Nextly I would like to remind you and your cohorts that Grineer defense is also an issue in regards to bleed procs.

 

New players have access to 3 frames at the start: Mag, Loki, and Excalibur - None of which can naturally regenerate health. Compound that with a defense map which has limited health restore orbs (if any), add in troops that consistantly proc slash-bleed, and you've got a recipe for a very poor gaming experience... Unless our young team has been lucky enough to find a rejuvenation alert in their theoretically short career.

 

Just my 2cents.

[NeroUmbra]

Thanks for acknowledging the thread first off.

 

Nextly I would like to remind you and your cohorts that Grineer defense is also an issue in regards to bleed procs.

 

New players have access to 3 frames at the start: Mag, Loki, and Excalibur - None of which can naturally regenerate health. Compound that with a defense map which has limited health restore orbs (if any), add in troops that consistantly proc slash-bleed, and you've got a recipe for a very poor gaming experience... Unless our young team has been lucky enough to find a rejuvenation alert in their theoretically short career.

 

Just my 2cents.

 

I don't remember seeing alerts on mercury TBH.

[Tsukinoki]

@NeroUmbra

They do happen...it is just so ridiculously rare that I can count the number on my fingers. And when they do its usually credits and no real reward.

[Kracken]

"shift +ctrl+W+E"

 

that was epic xD

[Archistopheles]

"shift +ctrl+W+E"

 

that was epic xD

 

Off topic: That guy is a great host, but a terrible player... No offense to him or his cats.

[NikolaiLev]

I have to disagree.  Bleed procs were a great way to finally limit the effectiveness of stacking shields; now Vitality is important just as well.

 

The only valid issue I see is that, due to hitscan weapons, it's almost impossible to not get your health chipped away.  However, this still adds much-needed challenge to the game.

 

Really, stealth-focused changes to the game would fix such an issue; if you had the option to avoid combat this wouldn't be an issue at all.

[Tsukinoki]

@NikolaiLev

The other issue with bleed procs is the Eviscerators hitting your Frame, such as Mag, once with a blade, not getting through the shield, but having the bleed tick for around 100 damage a go and wiping your 450 health out without the chance to be able to do anything at all about it. And that is stacking Redirection + vigor.

How is that any form of 'challenge'? Thats just killing the player without providing a way to prevent it at all. Even if you drop down a heal restore it will take 20 seconds for it to heal 120 health. If you drop down a medium its 400 hp over 20 seconds. Either way you'll be dead before the second pulse ever happens.

An actual challenge would have some way to mitigate it if it does happen. Or make it easy to avoid so that being caught up by it is your fault. As it stands neither is true for the vast majority of frames. Trinity, Valkyr, Oberon and Rhino can mitigate bleeding. None of the rest have any way to do so. And its not like the eviscerator blades are that avoidable considering their small profile and high speed.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[TheSeannachaidh]

"shift +ctrl+W+E"

 

that was epic xD

It has a similar movement to a blues lick on piano; my parents was right when they saysed that I would be glad I took lessons! :3

Edited January 21, 2014 by TheSeannachaidh

[AXCrusnik]

-snip-

I usually agree with everything extra credits says... but slide slash is a move that's hard to execute? LOLOLOL

Edited January 21, 2014 by AXCrusnik

[NeroUmbra]

I usually agree with everything extra credits says... but slide slash is a move that's hard to execute? LOLOLOL

Ummmm, Yeah.

 

Well, maybe not hard to execute but hard to connect with...

 

OK, it is hard to execute for me.  Keyboard twister champ I'm not.

[AXCrusnik]

Ummmm, Yeah.

 

Well, maybe not hard to execute but hard to connect with...

 

OK, it is hard to execute for me.  Keyboard twister champ I'm not.

They give you as much time as you can slide to execute it so i don't see it as anywhere near hard. You can walk for 15 seconds, then sprint for 5 seconds, then hit crouch while sprinting, slide for a good 2-3 seconds (you don't even need to hold w, shift, or ctrl [if you have toggle crouch] while sliding) and then hit melee.

 

After doing this a few times, it's all muscle memory, and if the default controls suck for this move you can change them around because it's a PC game. (Sorry PS4 players... still doable but less variations available lol)

 

The thing about it is the game never tells you it's there, so it's up to you to figure it out (i actually thought this was fun, but I played this game because it looked similar to another game that didn't have a tutorial for advanced moves... if you played it, you probably know what I'm talking about.)

Edited January 21, 2014 by AXCrusnik

[NeroUmbra]

*blink*

 

They give you as much time as you can slide to execute it so i don't see it as anywhere near hard. You can walk for 15 seconds, then sprint for 5 seconds, then hit crouch while sprinting, slide for a good 2-3 seconds (you don't even need to hold w, shift, or ctrl [if you have toggle crouch] while sliding) and then hit melee.

 

After doing this a few times, it's all muscle memory, and if the default controls suck for this move you can change them around because it's a PC game. (Sorry PS4 players... still doable but less variations available lol)

 

Gonna have to test this when I get online.  

 

Learn something new every day...

[AXCrusnik]

*blink*

 

 

Gonna have to test this when I get online.  

 

Learn something new every day...

Glad I could help :D

[sewens]

I think there should just be proc immunities.

 

 

The more shields something has the more immune it is to bleed but vulnerable to knockdown

 

The more armor something has the more immune it is to knockdown but vulnerable to puncture

 

And a shieldless armorless enemy is resistant to knockdown and puncture but commonly bleeds.

[Balter]

Right now it is a bit extreme and needs to be looked at.

 

Removed entirely?  I dont think so otherwise we should have our "gets through shields" abilities changed. Sure it's the warframe universe, but a universe needs consistency. 

 

It also provides a new facet of threats when building a team or changing your loadout or even just mixing it up on the battle field by having high proc enemies show up once and a while.  Like I said its a bit extreme right now. but if balanced a bit better it doesn't need to be removed. Brings healing items, a frame in your group who can help heal, ect.  Otherwise we get to the problem of "Health mods dont matter if your shields are high enough because they regen" Which in itself has a few issues. The main one how health is incredibly vulnerable under the new damage 2.0 even with the minor armor buffs to all the frames.

[AhziDahaka]

I only find bleeding to be an issue when it's coming from something like an Eviscerator, where you're suddenly losing like 50 health per damage tick.  Even with a large amount of health that's a death sentence.  Most of the time it's a pretty minor amount and not a terrible loss, though.

 

Really, I just feel like bleed should cause a set, low percentage of health damage per tick, and it shouldn't stack.  Then, even a low-health frame could handle suffering bleeding multiple times--enough to make it a concern, which it should be, but not the most dangerous thing on the battlefield.

[NikolaiLev]

@NikolaiLev

The other issue with bleed procs is the Eviscerators hitting your Frame, such as Mag, once with a blade, not getting through the shield, but having the bleed tick for around 100 damage a go and wiping your 450 health out without the chance to be able to do anything at all about it. And that is stacking Redirection + vigor.

How is that any form of 'challenge'? Thats just killing the player without providing a way to prevent it at all. Even if you drop down a heal restore it will take 20 seconds for it to heal 120 health. If you drop down a medium its 400 hp over 20 seconds. Either way you'll be dead before the second pulse ever happens.

An actual challenge would have some way to mitigate it if it does happen. Or make it easy to avoid so that being caught up by it is your fault. As it stands neither is true for the vast majority of frames. Trinity, Valkyr, Oberon and Rhino can mitigate bleeding. None of the rest have any way to do so. And its not like the eviscerator blades are that avoidable considering their small profile and high speed.

 

You can dodge eviscerator blades.  And if you can't, you can parry them.  If you can't manage either?  You deserve to die, because you messed up.

The only problem with eviscerators is that they're far too common.  Else I enjoy them being as deadly as they are.

 

Also, you're stacking redirection and vigor.  Try Vitality, and your HP won't get emptied out so fast.  You'll of course be sacrificing shield capacity, so you need to...

 

wait a minute...

 

make a choice?  Whoa, that's something new for Warframe, isn't it?

 

Bleed procs should stay.  The game was made easy enough with the neutering of Infested ancients as well as Grineer losing their shields and toughness.

 

Here's one suggestion: Procs cease to become random-based, but instead "stack up."  Once an individual proc stacks to 100%, you incur that proc.  A Grakata has 20% status.  Instead of having that percentage chance to proc, instead it should be the fifth round is a guaranteed proc, because you reach 100%, naturally.

 

This goes for each individual proc type, probably split between damage types.  Since a Grakata deals more Impact, it'll reach its Knockback proc faster, with its Weaken proc coming second and its Slash proc coming third.  How status is distributed among damage types is a matter of detail.  The point is, any given entity has separate "status bars" for each damage type.  Taking status "damage" from a source of Slash does not increase your "status bar" for Magnetic proc, for instance.

 

Over time, when not being attacked (similarily to shield recharging) status wears off if it's stacked incompletely.  So you got shot 4 times by a grakata, reaching 80%.  After a given amount of time, that % begins to decrease until it's 0%.  This applies to both you and the enemy.

 

The practical effect of this is: If you're taking the occasional damage from enemies, you can choose to take cover and avoid damage to avoid taking a proc.  Now, an Eviscerator would still have something like a 50% status or so, so getting hit twice will make you take bleed damage.  That can be adjusted to DE's liking, though.

 

At the end of the day, the challenge remains, but there's more counterplay.  Hurray for non-random mechanics, right?

Edited January 21, 2014 by NikolaiLev