Fun's Over De, Remove Broken Lights Already.

[Casardis]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) DOT vs big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

 

From a design standpoint, I still don't understand how those "broken lights" work. I can understand an explosive barrel, well, exploding when shot at, but how does a broken light bulb transfers electricity in such a way, and in such range? Wouldn't it make more sense when it comes from the guts of the ship or something like that, rather than light bulbs?

 

Additionally, even though you can damage enemies by shooting at it with this future change, it still needs to do the DOT damage to any nearby enemies by default if it's going to make sense. I will repeat, there are no IFFs in lightbulbs.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Casardis

[Egg_Chen]

Oh dear, how can you miss the point completely?

 

Materials won't make us think they are anything but a cheap mechanic.

 

Line of sight required (how do they shoot through walls? Innate Puncture mod?)

Less of them (in a Survival run you can encounter 30, 40, even 50 of them, in one level).

Remove from Mercury (I should not need to explain that).

 

Simple.

 

Oh, and are these the "Sentients" we have heard about?

How do light bulbs choose to only target Tenno?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Egg_Chen

[Valiant]

That's what point 3 says.

Point 3 is saying DOT or big surge of damage. 

 

There shouldn't be any 'big' damage at all and if there is going to be DoT still (which there is currently due to the proc) the damage still shouldn't be big as it is now. So yeah, not sure what your point is.

 

On another note completely - if these things are going to hurt us surely they should be hurting Grineer as well? If not, that makes little sense. They're the ones walking around in big armoured suits too, unless they just 'happen' to have their suits made of material which does not conduct electricity yet we somehow do. It would make them more interesting if they did 'attack' anyone. Just noticed someone above posted the same question but ah well.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Naith

[Kaian-a-coel]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) DOT vs big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

Sounds good. I will wait to experience that version before judging it but it may turn out OK.

[Illuminatus51]

Oh dear, how can you miss the point completely?

It often seems like you guys feel you can't do what the community suggests on principle alone, and have to come up with something different because you are the designers.

Materials won't make us think they are anything but a cheap mechanic.

 

Line of sight required (how do they shoot through walls? Innate Puncture mod?)

Less of them (in a Survival run you can encounter 30, 40, even 50 of them, in one level).

Remove from Mercury (I should not need to explain that).

 

Simple.

 

I wouldn't call it missing the point completely, they did take my advice directly after all. But you're still correct.

 

The problem with these is that although they are an analogue to the Corpus security cameras in theory, there are three things that happen which need to be taken into account when you wake up a camera.

 

1. Walk into the line of sight of the camera.

2. Get detected, thus activating the turrets.

3. Avoid turret fire until you either escape, (taking damage and knockdown through the laser barrier) wait it out, (forcing you into a corner) or shooting the camera, (which can be a problem if you're under duress in a firefight and need something killed.

 

At any point during this process, you can avert the problem with a little bit of quick thinking. As annoying as even I find the cameras, they at least are a thoughtful and meaningful challenge to deal with. They're annoying, but I find them interesting as a result.

 

Even with the changes, this is the process of a broken light:

 

1. Hear/See the light. (At which time you have the opportunity to shoot it.)

2. Enter the light's range, thus taking unavoidable damage.

 

Even as a damage over time, step 2 is non-negotiable. If you for whatever reason do not see a light, you are going to take that punishment. This can be anywhere from costly (during dangerous fights) to downright unfair (escaping from a survival mission), and even with the addition of a damage over time effect it will still strike like a major burst of damage in a higher level area. 

 

The fact is, it looks and feels cheap, it's not going to change the way anybody plays, it'll only serve to tick them off.

 

You want a Grineer stage hazard? Fine, I accept that. I welcome it, even. You want it to make it serve a similar gameplay element as the Corpus security grid? Add smart-turrets on the ceiling. Even if they're extremely dangerous, people will welcome another thing shooting at them far more than a random unavoidable electrocution.

 

And hey, if you want to have faulty electricals all over Grineer ships, I accept that too. It certainly fits with the lore, so I get where it's coming from. But having it as 'THIS LIGHT WILL ELECTROCUTE YOU IF YOU WALK NEAR IT' is not going to be seen as even polished, let alone fun. Open electrical circuits in the 1940's didn't do that, I seriously doubt any wiring in the year 4000 (?) is that bad unless there's a massive coolant spill or something. My recommendation on that front? Put a bunch of power boxes littering every room on a galleon. Put lettering on them in red grineer text that translates to 'DANGER. HIGH VOLTAGE. KEEP GRAKATAS FACING ANOTHER DIRECTION. KRIL, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT' or something, and make it obvious in the target's health that if the player ruptures the box, then there will be an electrical hell waiting for them. It'll at least get them to put more stock in accuracy and keep in mind where they are relative to the enemy.

 

The lights right now feel cheap, but it wouldn't take much work to make it better. There usually has to be enough room to to fix your mistake before you're punished if you're skilled or reflexive enough.

 

Illuminatus has spoken.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Illuminatus51

[Phantasmo]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) DOT vs big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

 

So you can see people don't like them and you are changing them, and that's ok.

However, I wonder:

* Why won't you just remove them and

* What's the point in those traps anyway. Why did you create them? What kind of gameplay do you want to achieve with those traps?

[drMightyPotato]

The only thing i want to ask here is, what are these intended as? Traps? Or a enviromental hazard? Cause if it is a trap i find it insulting twards Grineer (as soldiers this trap is a joke), but if its a hazard i dont see a reason (logical or ilogical) why it should jump several meters away to hit a specific target.

Furthermore that thing hits trough walls, floors and pipes several feet thick.

And dont get me started on their spawn locations. They spawn in the most weirdest places with the biggest joke being that they hit you the moment you come within 10 meters from it sometimes.

[Ripcat]

What bugs me the most about these traps is that much of the game mechanic is based around mobility and parkour. The broken light "traps" slow down the flow of the game. The feel more like a penalty for moving through a map more than anythign else, and if I take a couple hits in succession, I have to stop and wait for my shields to come back.

 

It'll be interesting to see the new fixes in place. They are a neat idea for stealth gameplay, so perhaps having a "stealh" type mission with them included would be neat, but rushing to a downed team mate or getting to extraction and getting zapped isn't particularily fun. If they apply DOTs, will moving through them quickly mean less DOTs are applied to the frame?

 

If they are proximity, then shouldn't the Grineer activate them too?

[(PSN)Darkseider]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) Will do DOT vs (instead of) big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

A DOT effect to what exactly?  A DOT effect to shields?  Meh.. ok.  A DOT effect to health?  Like the wonderful bleed proc they have now?  If so remove them.  There is really no excuse for a bleed out and a trap that instantly bypasses the only real means a Warframe has for defense.

 

EDIT:  Hate seen by some?  What is the definition of some?  Last I checked it is most.  

Edited March 18, 2014 by (PS4)Darkseider

[Phantasmo]

What bugs me the most about these traps is that much of the game mechanic is based around mobility and parkour. The broken light "traps" slow down the flow of the game. The feel more like a penalty for moving through a map more than anythign else, and if I take a couple hits in succession, I have to stop and wait for my shields to come back.

 

This.

Supposedly Warframe is not about cover but about fast paced action, parkour etc.

 

This traps simply destroy all that.

 

What did DE wanted to do exactly with those traps? I have no idea. They feel so, so alien to this game.

 

Don't get me started again on design decisions or lack thereof.

[(PSN)Darkseider]

This.

Supposedly Warframe is not about cover but about fast paced action, parkour etc.

 

This traps simply destroy all that.

 

What did DE wanted to do exactly with those traps? I have no idea. They feel so, so alien to this game.

 

Don't get me started again on design decisions or lack thereof.

QFT

[Egg_Chen]

DE, do you notice that no one is raging about the doors... they make sense, the lights just don't!

 

Grineer weaponry primarily targets shields (Impact), so a Security door that eliminates shields makes perfect sense for the Grineer to protect their ships from Corpus invasion.

The lights are just cheap, and defy all logic, yes even space ninja logic.

 

Now, if the lights were replaced by some kind of magnetic field generator, with a sensor that detects Tenno (like the doors), it would make sense.

Rather than instant loss of shields, it could be a DoT effect, giving the player chance to realise, and address the threat by hitting the sensor or generator.

 

As illuminatus51 points out, being able to combat something as opposed to receiving a cheap shot you cannot dodge would make the mechanic acceptable.

 

Challenge, not punishment :)

 

Edit: Oh, and sorry illuminatus51, I had edited my original post because I realised that sentence was out of order :)

 

Final Edit: I notice Rebecca refers to them as "traps" rather than "environmental hazards".

I think that is the core of the problem, DE want or think of them as traps, but are using items that really should be environmental hazards.

When the ship is on fire it damages everything that walks through it, not just Tenno.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Egg_Chen

[Varzy]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) Will do DOT vs (instead of) big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

Oh, this seems interesting -- I like that they can be detonated to harm foes. Will it proc chain lightning too?

[Llyssa]

DE, do you notice that no one is raging about the doors... they make sense, the lights just don't!

 

Grineer weaponry primarily targets shields (Impact), so a Security door that eliminates shields makes perfect sense for the Grineer to protect their ships from Corpus invasion.

The lights are just cheap, and defy all logic, yes even space ninja logic.

 

Now, if the lights were replaced by some kind of magnetic field generator, with a sensor that detects Tenno (like the doors), it would make sense.

Rather than instant loss of shields, it could be a DoT effect, giving the player chance to realise, and address the threat by hitting the sensor or generator.

 

As illuminatus51 points out, being able to combat something as opposed to receiving a cheap shot you cannot dodge would make the mechanic acceptable.

 

Challenge, not punishment :)

 

Edit: Oh, and sorry illuminatus51, I had edited my original post because I realised that sentence was out of order :)

 

Final Edit: I notice Rebecca refers to them as "traps" rather than "environmental hazards".

I think that is the core of the problem, DE want or think of them as traps, but are using items that really should be environmental hazards.

When the ship is on fire it damages everything that walks through it, not just Tenno.

We generally don't like the doors. They don't 1-shot you, though, so they're much less of a "WTF IS THIS?" issue.

 

On the topic of lights, the alterations make it sound like it might actually be interesting that way; instead of the current random-freaking-death thing they are, they'll be a "don't stand by that" issue, and have an actual, meaningful purpose.

[RochTheShaman]

Can these traps be replaced with some pressure plate trap instead? Where once triggered a hidden tesla drops down and zaps the target and will continue to attack until destroyed? Or it will trigger that energy zap doorway as you are running through, that way if you are just sprinting through the level you will have to take a moment to either gather up some more energy in case you get stuck or you can continue to run.

[TrashSpider]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) Will do DOT vs (instead of) big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

Kinda wish it wasn't a "broken light" though, seem strange to have a broken light fixture shoot lightning bolt my &#!. 

[unknow99]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) Will do DOT vs (instead of) big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

 

I don't know about you all, but the "Damage Over Time" in the point 3 feels suspicious...(like...like a bleed proc 2.0 :s )

 

If it attacks shields,ok.If it is a more logical trap, OK.If it affects grineer troops who should be a greater threat, Great!

[CY13ERPUNK]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) Will do DOT vs (instead of) big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

DEFINITELY a MUCH MORE REASONABLE approach than what a lot of these rage threads have been screaming for

+1 DE for not caving in completely

however the resource drop seems, out of place, exploding barrels dont drop resources, so why should these traps?

absolutely LUV the #4 bullet, mucho gusto for that

IMHO #2/3 remove the necessity of #1, but whatevs, I think traps should be sneaky and hidden, but a broken light fixture isn't a 'trap' technically, show I think they should just be wherever light fixtures regularly are, but I wouldn't go out of my way to place them in a much more obvious way, since they are already fairly obvious

of course i played thru the CB days back when u had to find corpus cameras by the lil red light and the sound they made, b4 they added the huge light beams (and ppl STILL took forever to realize what/where they were)

[ThePresident777]

Are the broken lights even that bad?  They used to one shot my no defense mods Nova.  But, not anymore.  The enemy is more dangerous than the lights.

[Dogoframe]

Broken light bulb one-shots Tenno who survive hundreds of enemies. 

 

It will be changed to broken light bulb that is in line of sight (kind of low for a light bulb, and if they are so easily reachable why not replace the assassin bulb?), and if you shoot an already broken light bulb, it deals area damage. Makes sense.

[TrashSpider]

Broken light bulb one-shots Tenno who survive hundreds of enemies. 

 

It will be changed to broken light bulb that is in line of sight (kind of low for a light bulb, and if they are so easily reachable why not replace the assassin bulb?), and if you shoot an already broken light bulb, it deals area damage. Makes sense.

I opt for a lightning rod, atleast that alot more reasonable. 

[Bibliothekar]

DE, do you notice that no one is raging about the doors... they make sense, the lights just don't!

To be honest, I don't remember when I last saw one of the doors in a mission. One or two times right after the update - and that's it.

[Clazzeh]

Easy fix! Have the damage be dealt, but get a lil energy boost!

[HellEnforcer]

Except they have to slow down if they don't want to die. So no, they kinda can't.

 

Edit: It's not "real risk" it's "oh, you thought you could run with a frame with less than 800 shields? That's cute. *Zap! Zap! Zap! Sizzle!*"

 

 You don't have to slow down, and that is precisely the risk. To get zapped for not slowing down nor being careful.

 That being said, note that I never said the lights are fine. I do agree that they are a pain as they currently are. They need a tweak, not deletion. By tweak I do not mean in damage numbers, but the way it works. Perhaps to activate and deactivate intermitenly randomly between 5-10 seconds and to produce a loud noise and much more noticeable sparkles. I would also reduce the range.

 

 Also, it is not "oh, you thought you could run with a frame with less than 800 shields? That's cute *Zap! Zap! Zap! Sizzle!*". It is more like "Oh, you thought you could just breeze through the entire level without caring for anything? That's wrong *Zap! Zap! Zap! Sizzle!*"

 

 

Yes, because having to slow down to see and shoot the lights (when they're placed so you can actually see them, that is) totally doesn't slow the game down.

 

 

 Then again, no. Perhaps your definition and mine of what is "fast pace" is different. And to be honest, probably yours is correct since my first language is not english. To me fast pace is to have something going on all the time, to allow no breaks to the player, to be always in action. the lights do not impede in any way that unless you are in an exterminate. You will be in a fight more often than not even by staying on the same room or going backwards, the enemies keep spawning.

 

 Also, keep in mind that I have stated a few times as well that I am completely with you in that their placement is one of the most problematic things with the lights. Quite often they are placed in places hard if not impossible to destroy before getting hit. Although I see hard to fix this since the player could come from any door, so it is not easy to know which side to put them properly.

 

 

The incredible pace comes from the constant advance. Retreating to already cleared areas goes against this in a fundamental fashion. 

 

 

 To me that's not incredible pace, that's incredible race.

 

 

If you dare to say that, you're wrong. It doesn't add to the pace, it detracts from it since players have to slow down to notice and the shoot them. Or in this case, slow down and let a sacrificial lamb go first since an iron skin rhino can usually tank unexpected lights while their paper-thin Loki cannot.

 

 

 Hard to say I am wrong on something it is an opinion. Try to shoot the light during a fight or while you are under enemy fire. If you wait to kill all enemies to advance, then you are doing that yourself. For a good reason to be honest if you can't keep enemies in check and pay attention to potential hazards, but still your choice. If you are just shooting mindlessly to obvious enemies or just phasing through them because you can tank their hits for a bit until you encounter the next group, then yes, I suppose the lights present a "challenge" that apparently some people do not want to deal with. By "challenge" I mean something that is hard or impossible to deal with at the moment. Again, they do need a change of some sort.

 

 

By "incredible pace" I mean exactly what I said. The game's fast pace, the tempo of its combat. In Warframe, you're generally not out of combat for more than ten seconds outside of void parkour challenges, and this is due primarily to the speed with which players can advance through a level.

 

 This segment is related to something I already said. The combat is not hindered, just the advance. Even slowing down to carefully disable the light with a screwdriver and insulating tape, you will have enemies coming. They keep spawning even from areas you already went through. True enough, the pace is a bit slower since less enemies spawn and are present, but the constant combat is present. 

 

If you take more than ten seconds to either destroy or get zapped then you are probably doing something wrong. I take my time with the darn lights and loot everything that is on sight, not on sight and outside the path, and I am not out of a fight for that amount of time unless it is a secret room problematic to get.

 

 

These lights break that by forcing players to slow down, unless they're playing tank frames. Anything that's unavoidable and hits finesse frames harder than tanks is a bad idea and should be ejected with extreme prejudice.

 

 Again, they are not forced to slow down. They are highly encouraged to be careful. You can still run all the way to the end if you plan properly. You can even get zapped quite frequently and still do it alive if you play well. By well I mean to take into account that the lights are around, not go around with low shields, knowing that the only things you have to worry about now are not only everything that moves and easy to spot and snipe from 2 rooms away. 

 

 The idea of traps and random hazards is completely the opposite of bad. It is great and should be expanded, not 'ejected with extreme prejudice'. However, the lights and how they are currently working is not well implemented.

 

 The biggest issue I am seeing besides the implementation of the lights is the people themselves. It is like they just want to blow everything up without caring for anything. They do not want to pay attention to anything that could be dangerous. They could tank most enemies anyways. But now that something is present that present a change to the careless frenzy shooting to the careful frenzy shooting, people is going nuts. With this mentality is hard to present a challenging game. 

 

 What if they put a unit that can one shoot you? I am not talking about the 'old' eviscerators, you could kind of avoid they shots if you played properly. I am talking about a random regular unit with some "desintegrator" as a weapon and with some impenetrable shields that could only be bypassed by destroying the battery on its back or even activating some EMP. Then it could just one shot you. Just like that, it aims, you are marked, and if you don't take either cover, kill it, or get away fast enough, you are dead. People will go nuts with this too? Too hard to pay attention to this unit during a fight as well? Too bad you can't kill it with 2-3 shots? How can the developers put some challenge into the game when anytime they present a change people just rage all over the place not suggesting changes but demanding for removal or reversal?

 

 Please note that the super unit is just another example totally not related to the light issue, but it works to illustrate the biggest problem I am seeing at hand with this. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by HellEnforcer

[Monolake]

Just an update, Dev's next iteration of this mechanic will include:

 

1) Only placing the 'traps' at eye or floor level.

2) FX that indicate they are clearly active.

3) Will do DOT vs (instead of) big pulse/surge of damage.

4) Can be exploded from a distance to damage nearby enemies (like Explosive Barrels).

5) Will have a chance to drop a resource.

 

We can definitely see the hate still for these by some, so more attempts to tweak are being made.

Why dont they make the distinctive traps instead of hacking this functionality onto the random lights? Make a new visual model for them. Work on  proper placement where players can always see and react to them, dont place them at spwanpoints or from the other side of the door etc. 

 

And just on abstract level: what does it add to the gameplay? its just an equivalent of a stationary single-use invisible enemy that suckerpunches you, a random damage. how any competent designer though this was a cool addition? If it was an unti-rush measure it doesnt work in the slightest, cause the best rush frame is Rhino and all these traps and doors are nothing for Iron Skin.

 

Please call the guy who designed void levels and ask him to design grineer traps, he obviously knows his job and did some good interactive, deadly but always visible and avoidable traps.