Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Boogieman81]

@taiiat

"having both drop by casting the Ability just incentivizes spamming the Ability until the end of time. encourages extremely abusive Gameplay. group Enemies up, and just cast Reckoning until the Enemies die. which you could do even vs Lv500 Enemies, because you get a bunch of Energy Orbs from casting the Ability.
extremely bad idea. "

Atm Reckoning is this:

if u go strength build it can one shot lower level enemies and u have lots of health orbs around spawned which u almost dont need coz they were lower level enemies at start which u kill fast, but if u go sorties that cant be done and u basically dont have health orbs coz u cant kill them with reckoning to spawn health orbs which u need now more than ever

i suggested 15% chance for ability cast, but number doesn't matter, it can be  10 or 5% for ability cast, whatever % number would be good for balance purpose, point is to have some chance to get orbs spawned against some high leveled enemies when u really need orbs 

[taiiat]

24 minutes ago, Boogieman81 said:

but if u go sorties that cant be done and u basically dont have health orbs coz u cant kill them with reckoning

i know. but making it a Roll every time you cast incentivizes standing there and casting it forever.

yes, getting Health Orbs is unnecessarily sadface vs higher Level Enemies.
so, in addition to on Kill, add a Chance for a Health Orb on being hit by Reckoning in the first place. somewhere between 10 and 20%. single use per Enemy.

Edited October 8, 2016 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

On 10/7/2016 at 4:07 PM, Aquasurge said:

with regards to today's prototype of bladestorm:

the concept is good but it needs two things

1.  the marking phrase should be changed from a toggle to a hold to allow more survivability
2. don't let ash join the bladestorm animation unless he teleports to a marked target.

1. Fairly certain they said it was a hold - Hold to target, release to attack, energy is based on number of marks up.

2. ... That just adds an unnecessary energy cost. And, since Teleport already lets him expose enemies to Finisher attacks, is actually a significant damage drop since Bladestorm does fixed damage and Teleport scales with the weapon.

[(XBOX)Drone A5R]

For Hydroid, I feell like Undertow and Tentecale Swarm would synergize well and make sense to synergize, if you cast tentacle swarm while undertow is active enemies will be dragged into the puddle by the tentacle and be dealt both abilities damages and maybe even a bit more  (the being able to move with tidal  surge while in undertow is a great idea)

Ash's Shuriken could benefit from secondary mods as well as maybe add a Fuuma shuriken (which is like a ceiling fan but made of very sharp blades) or instead of the fuuma the ability only throws 1 shurkin and costs 5eng and if you hold then release (charge the ability so to speak) you release 5 shuriken in various directions.Smoke screen will be a smoke bomb, enemies within range of the initial cast are blinded and open to finishers and those who walk in will be sustituible to stealth meele multiplier and allies inside the screen will gain partial invisibility, if you hold the ability botton ash a reticle (like the tonkors) will show up and you'll be able to throw it.

And I agree that some augments are kinda of junk, I feel like when DE decides to rework Frames they should also take a look at their augments

[taiiat]

49 minutes ago, (XB1)Drone A5R said:

Ash's Shuriken could benefit from secondary mods

that is excessively unnecessary.

that would increase the Damage that Shuriken deals by a factor of ~40-50x.

[(XBOX)Drone A5R]

40 minutes ago, taiiat said:

that is excessively unnecessary.

that would increase the Damage that Shuriken deals by a factor of ~40-50x.

you would obviously scale down the base damage and this would allow you to focus on a more balanced build instead of pure strength and efficiency 

[RealPandemonium]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)Drone A5R said:

you would obviously scale down the base damage and this would allow you to focus on a more balanced build instead of pure strength and efficiency 

If the base damage was like 30 you would be dealing like 3k+ per Shuriken for 6.25 energy.  Pure strength and efficiency would be highly desirable if such a thing were implemented.  

[IceColdHawk]

24 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

If the base damage was like 30 you would be dealing like 3k+ per Shuriken for 6.25 energy.  Pure strength and efficiency would be highly desirable if such a thing were implemented.  

And this is not ok, why? Landslide deals damage in the 5-digit area and even goes into 6-digits. And that for even less than 6.25 energy. 

Most damage abilities are useless (shuriken or fireball for example) because of this. Why waste energy at all when my weapons do the job 20x better?

Edited October 9, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[Azamagon]

As a player who you could say "mains" Ash (I play most frames, but he is my main "go-to" for non-niched missions):

Shuriken
I'd be ok with nerfing the basedamage of Shuriken but scaling it with some weaponmods (melee seems more fitting to me), moreso if it threw one (or still 2) homing shuriken(s) AND one straight-flying (wider?) shuriken with punchthrough. Gives you more skillbased options how to use it then, as the homing is neat, but not always something you want.

If not giving it weapon-scaling, I'd instead make it benefit from AND contribute to the melee combo counter. That way it synergizes better with Bladestorm and his melee-esque theme.
Also, make it stagger enemies, regardless of changes.

Smoke Screen
I honestly don't understand people complaining about this ability. Sure, it COULD be improved (with lingering smoke, choke effects etc), but it is already a highly potent ability imo. I guess the problem is that people think Duration is his dumpstat, while it is really not. Smoke Screen's stagger is a lifesaver, and having at least neutral-ish duration makes it (along with Teleport) an amazing revival tool and a great survivability tool.

The Smoke Shadow augment though, it could highly benefit from adding a lingering smoke, so allies just have to run through it to get the remaining duration's effect from it (along with something else, like slowing/accuracy-debuffing enemies who pass through the smoke, so the augment has a use in solo play as well)

Teleport
Good ability, but quite heavily niched. I mean, yeah, it's nice for taking out specifc / heavy targets using a Covert Lethality dagger etc, or to quickly get to certain points (like reviving allies). But... it is missing something. Some ideas how it could be oomphed up a bit:
* Free-aim teleport? Landing on a wall = Brief auto-wall-latch too for extra badassness. Makes it more generally useful as a mobility tool, but also a potentially abusable skill.
* Make the finisher-stun a small AoE around your landing point (also meaning, if made freeaim = you can still use it similarly to how it works now).
* Upon use, make it very briefly (but moddable by duration) grant you a big melee attackspeed bonus (bonus moddable by power strength). Think, 3 seconds of +75% melee attackspeed or so. Gives it a synergy with itself (since finishers can be sped up with attackspeed) and with his meleecentred kit, such as boosting Bladestorm too (which is also affected by melee speed bonuses) etc.

Bladestorm
A bit ez-mode as is, and I honestly am looking forward to its revamp. Only change I'd make is as many others also have said: Press it to toggle marking mode, press again to launch it. Holding would feel very clunky (and it would be horrible for controller-users).

And maybe, casting teleport DURING the assaults = you land where you cast teleport when the assaults are over? That way we can choose wether we wanna safely "snipe" with it, or if we also wanna go over to where we are are attacking (because, if Teleport is not made free-aim, killing everything also means there would be nothing to teleport towards after).

I like that the revamp will give Smoke Screen some synergy (as in, giving you a moment of safer marking time), but it also feels that it would FURTHER make Teleport feel (sort of) obsolete, as Bladestorm can now also be used for single targets, with a more forgiving aiming system to boot. Hence why I think Teleport needs further bonuses (preferably all of the ideas suggested above).

 

As for Hydroid, these are my tweaks for him from another thread:

Tempest Barrage
I think either TB or TS could need a complete rehaul (considering their similar nature), but keeping things as they are and improving them are more likely to get implemented, so I'd suggest this:
1) Onehanded cast
2) Individual explosions ALSO increase with Power Range (not just their landing radius)
3) The first explosion occurs across the ENTIRE landing radius, giving it a guaranteed minimal effect
4) To make its purpose different from Tentacle Swarm: Lower its basedamage, but give it damage scaling from your Primary weapon or something?

Tidal Surge
Just needs small tweaking
1) 25 energycost (or max 35)
2) Wider hitbox and graphical wave, by a noticeable margin (up to twice as wide?)
3) Collects and drags all enemies in its path in a ragdoll fashion, releasing them only when he lands
4) Can be ended early by pressing melee

Undertow
1) The longer an enemy is inside Undertow, the more damage it takes. This both improves its damage and helps reduces trolling
2) After enemies are released, for a brief duration afterwards they are also slowed down and suffer some more of Undertow's current built up damage.
3) Your other abilities can be cast while you are in Undertow:
* Tempest Barrage - Casts it centralized on the pool. All enemies in the pool suffer damage if a barrage bubble hits anywhere on the pool.
* Tidal Surge - Cancels Undertow and instantly casts Tidal Surge to relocate yourself (and possibly relocates the enemies from Undertow that might get caught by the Tidal Surge), then goes back to Undertow instantly again.
* Tentacle Swarm - Summons tentacles outside the pool's perimeters (functions like a cast centralized on the Undertow, but no tentacles will spawn on the actual pool, because that'd be highly redundant. Only exception would be, for example, if there is an Osprey above the pool, then a tentacle might spawn there). All enemies who are caught by tentacles (wether the tentacles were summoned during Undertow or not, doesn't matter) can be thrown into the Undertow pool.by Hydroid pressing the action-key (x). The tentacles have to be within line of sight and not all too far from the pool for them to be able to toss them in though.

Tentacle Swarm
Let's make it reliable:
1) No longer randomly smashes about, instead the tentacles wait in place, only reaching out in a fast swiping manner and grabs the first enemy it touches, when the enemy gets close enough to be in its grabbing range. The hitbox to grab an enemy should be BIG, to ensure that it manages to catch smaller enemies too (like Ospreys and such).
2) When a tentacle grabs an enemy, it whirls around it, holds it quite steady in place and drowns+crushes it (like an anaconda, but made of water and thus also able to drown its victim at the same time... evil), no longer disrupting you or your allies' aim. One tentacle can only hold one enemy at a time. If an enemy dies by a tentacle, the tentacle quickly throws the enemy towards a random nearby enemy (the corpse landing deals impact damage and knocks down the enemy it might hit) and grabs a new enemy that is/comes within its grabbing reach.
3) Power Range, on top of increasing the tentacle spawn area, also increases the number of tentacles spawned.

Passive
Would prefer something entirely different, but for now I'd just suggest: Maybe make them spawn upon doing groundfinishers too?

Stats
Energy: Buff up from 100 to 125
Arrmor: Buff up from 65 to max 150

 

In essence:
* TB is mainly a damage skill
* Surge is his mobility skill, even during Undertow
* Undertow is his "stay safe" skill, along with being a TB amplifier
* TS is mainly a CC skill, along with the option to help gather enemies into Undertow (thus also potentially helping TB)

Hydroid becomes a sinister "this is MY turf!" kind of Warframe. Like a pirate and/or a sea monster, he claims or "steals" an area to be his.

[Buzkyl]

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

If the base damage was like 30 you would be dealing like 3k+ per Shuriken for 6.25 energy.  Pure strength and efficiency would be highly desirable if such a thing were implemented.  

So? Ash throws literally 2 shurikens per cast. Her certainly isn't annihilating crowds of enemies with this. At best this is going to be a skill you use to weaken heavy targets before engaging. It's still outdone by bladestorm. Even if we throw in multishot thats 4-6 shurikens per cast,

Most of Ash's skillset is centered around assassinating limited targets through high damage. Shuriken would fit it well

[BlackCoMerc]

5 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

And this is not ok, why? Landslide deals damage in the 5-digit area and even goes into 6-digits. And that for even less than 6.25 energy. 

Most damage abilities are useless (shuriken or fireball for example) because of this. Why waste energy at all when my weapons do the job 20x better?

Agree completely. Atlas can March through level 40+ enemies with fists. Meanwhile, other 1 damage abilities...are jokes by comparison. Atlas essentially has an Ult/Exalted Weapon as just first.

[(PSN)B_Psycho2]

 I think some if not all elements from this could be put in there. 

 

+Soul Punch isn't just a bomb to make another shadow, it's a command for a suicide charge. 

+All abilities are useful together 

+creates a good team 

Etc.

[RealPandemonium]

8 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

And this is not ok, why? Landslide deals damage in the 5-digit area and even goes into 6-digits. And that for even less than 6.25 energy. 

Most damage abilities are useless (shuriken or fireball for example) because of this. Why waste energy at all when my weapons do the job 20x better?

Weapons dealing way too much damage is at the core of the design problems that we have now.  Landslide deals egregious damage.  Meanwhile, Fireball deals quite a bit of damage, particularly on headshots, but this is pointless because WoF is passive and weapon damage is ludicrous (and WoF makes FB unable to apply its Heat proc damage.)  

We have to scale everything down; this isn't a race toward theoretical amounts of damage. That will only bring us farther from the goal of interesting gameplay.

[taiiat]

9 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

And this is not ok, why?

"but something else is broken, so everything should be broken"
k

other instances of the same problem are just as much a problem and example of that problem.

 

same story always applies - infinite stats and infinite gear ladder has literally never succeeded in the history of the Industry(infact starting on that track slates a collapse date on a game - an unknown one but still instills a hard collapse point). but people still insist it's the best.
funny how that works.
sorry if i care about a game enough to not only look for the easy way out and what makes for the easiest experience in the short term with no regards for long term because i plan on abandoning ship to another game to repeat the same process. actually, caring about a game shouldn't be relevant to that - those actions in physical businesses would be called espionage/sabotage but in the Games Industry it's somehow not a charge to be tried for.

[IceColdHawk]

14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

"but something else is broken, so everything should be broken"

What? An ability that costs energy to use that does more damage than many weapons is "broken"? How is that broken? It's working as it should work. Imagine atlas' landslide with fireball-like damage. Since most people play atlas mostly only because of his cool 1, no one is ever gonna touch him again after that. And that for reasons.

Why waste energy for a damage ability that deals like no damage? Answer this question please. But without writing me a story that has no relevance to the issue. I really have no clue what your point is.

Edited October 9, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[taiiat]

atleast i have a point, rather than suggesting game balance is a binary of two extremes. because that's an embarrassing viewpoint to have.

you're not wasting Energy to Damage Enemies if the Ability does Damage proportionate to the number of targets it can hit, Energy cost, and rate it can be used.
the same applies to Weapons. the complete lack of any balance to both of these ways of dealing Damage is exactly why we have Weapons and Abilities that play the game for us, or do basically nothing. neither of those extremes is appropriate.

[Aquasurge]

23 hours ago, Archwizard said:

1. Fairly certain they said it was a hold - Hold to target, release to attack, energy is based on number of marks up.

2. ... That just adds an unnecessary energy cost. And, since Teleport already lets him expose enemies to Finisher attacks, is actually a significant damage drop since Bladestorm does fixed damage and Teleport scales with the weapon.

1. that is what i was meaning to say.

2.while it may adds more energy cost (thought this can be fixed with synergy to have marked targets have a reduce or little energy cost) cost the play-style benefits can be very rewarding considering how ash can send his clones to deal with one group of enemies while he can face another group in the opposite direction. plus the change will reduce nausea complaints to those who get sick of watching bladestorm animations 24/7 and stops the removal of ash from game-play. this can be particularly beneficial if ash goes into  a smoke screen melee frenzy and uses the rising storm augment for bladestorm..... imagine the sudden increase in melee DPS!

[Buzkyl]

Since Ash is next on the table for adjustment i thought i'd give him some thought on his current skillset and his position in both a cell and Warframe as a whole

 

Preface

Ash is an assassin, his role is to kill things, he is not CC frame, he is no a support frame and  he is not a tank, he is a frame bent on killing high priority targets quickly and efficiently.This would be great in Solo play, but we are in a Co-Op game. Ash's skill sit contribute nothing to teamplay and he brings nothing to a cell than DPS, which is nice however we have weaponry which is capable of even more damage. Even other offensive frames such as Ember, Valkyr, Atlas all bring various utilities to a team that grant them further use outside their main role of offense.

Suggestions and tweaks

 

Shuriken

• -Shuriken knockdown  enemies hit.
• Ash will launch 1 shuriken at all Targets "marked" by BS within his LoS/Field of view.

 

Smockscreen

• On cast, staggers nearby enemies.
• Creates a smokescreen of X meter in radius at point of cast.
• Allies within smokescreen gain increase evasion while within smoke screen.Enemies who pass through smokescreen suffer an accuracy debuff of X%.
• Smokescreen can be recasted but invisibility will not be refreshed.
• Targets "marked" by Bladestorm will suffer suffer a slightly increase accuracy debuff

Augment works the same, allies near point of cast or who walk into smokescreen are turned invisible for remaining duration of Ash's invisibility.

 

Ash isn't a "team player" He's the lone ninja you send to kill the bad guys, but with a few changes he can be a much better frame and bring alot more to the team than raw DPS.

 

Feel free to give feedback on my proposals.

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Buzkyl

[taiiat]

while Ash isn't intended to be a 'tank', he has quite high EHP despite that.
if he was truly not a 'tank', he'd be squishy. he isn't however.

rest sounds good to me.

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

while Ash isn't intended to be a 'tank', he has quite high EHP despite that.
if he was truly not a 'tank', he'd be squishy. he isn't however.

rest sounds good to me.

Meh, suppose it was meant to be the other face of loki? More EHP in exchange of less invisicheese?

Though, tbh, I think having the biggest health pool in the game (with the exception of Inaros, of course) was rather overkill.

[taiiat]

1 minute ago, tnccs215 said:

Though, tbh, I think having the biggest health pool in the game (with the exception of Inaros, of course) was rather overkill.

these EHP choices all were great before 'we' decided to start Powercreeping them. the original number choices made some Warframes sacrifice some of this for some of that.
which made Warframes have weaknesses to keep an eye on while playing, per Warframe.

but for the shiny versions apparently having interesting style choices is no bueno, and every Warframe should just have 4 digit values for everything.
"cuz".

[tnccs215]

how can you say that? 800 energy is a perfectly acceptable value!
/s

[Marceronni]

One of the few Hydroid reworks I actually think I could get behind a little bit. I'll add that I think his stats should be adjusted, he's in the 62nd %tile because he was never adjusted after losing his highest stat (stamina).

[Cytobel]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 3:21 PM, tnccs215 said:

Meh, suppose it was meant to be the other face of loki? More EHP in exchange of less invisicheese?

Though, tbh, I think having the biggest health pool in the game (with the exception of Inaros, of course) was rather overkill.

Okay, stupid as this may seem, "invisicheeze" is something I want now.  Imagine trolling lactose intolerant people...

I'm not unhappy with invisibility in this game.  I think it fits (ninjas), and it's generally not egregious (Naramon aside).  People can abuse it, big suprise there.  Then again, I wouldn't want people to NOT abuse invisibility in a video game.  It's kind of the point.

Maybe I'm just not getting the central point somehow, but with the way enemies function in Warframe and the way radial damage works invis doesn't get that stupid.  Remember, Trinity is based on the notion that a healer should also be a mana battery, but without any of the silly little restrictions we'd normally expect.  Also, enemies attack the general area they THINK you are even when they can't see you.

I guess I just don't feel like Loki remaining outside the visual spectrum for the entire game is some kind of crime when he still bursts because a teammate ran behind him while a heavy was out for their blood.  I have problems with level design being based off the notion that someone is going to be invisible (Spy comes to mind), and I'm not good with the bad habits it trains into players either.  Dev and player habits aside, the game doesn't break when you cannot be seen (again, Naramon aside).

Naramon is over the top, and goes far too far into the realm of ridiculous.  That's because PERMANENT FREE INVIS is different from the regular ability-driven invisibility, which comes with drawbacks built in.  I think more than a few of us have talked about the Focus system, and how it breaks gameplay.  I'm more put out, however, with people using a Focus ability to justify ridiculous restrictions to a 'Frame than I am with even Naramon.  It really irks me that so many folks are trying to claim issues with energy consumption are irrelevant because of the existence of Zenurik, for instance.

I get your point, but I don't totally agree.  Or maybe I agree with the logic BEHIND your dislike of invisibility, just not the conclusion.

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Cytobel said:

the game doesn't break when you cannot be seen (again, Naramon aside).

different from the regular ability-driven invisibility, which comes with drawbacks built in.

it does, just in a different way than automated Gameplay or numbers at excessive levels allowing walking forwards and clicking on things as your Gameplay.
especially in earlier days... the further you go back, the more being invisible was an instant game win.

not particularly. other than 'uses some Energy once in a while', that's pretty much your drawback. which is hard to call one, there's more than enough Energy on the ground to be Invisible 99.100% of the time.
one of them, has some interesting mechanics to it - that being Prowl - but they aren't really drawbacks, they make being Invisible more interesting, giving the Player things to do while they remove almost all threat from themselves. the others really don't have anything interesting to note about them.

 

i'd say it's not like people that find distaste towards what being Invisible does for the game by large are suggesting it's a lone issue, if a Thread is talking about Invisibility stuff, it's just not likely to jump to other things that are in a similar boat of poor Player Engagement and challenge to Gameplay.