Aldarin_Blackwing Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) This will be a long post, proposed changes in the first section, reasons and theory-crafting in the second. I haven't been playing the game very long, but found that many of these changes resonate with the issues I've had with the current state of the game. I tend to do theory crafting on all of the games I play, so here are the changes I've come up with. Incidentally, many of the changes I thought of have already been expressed in other posts on the forum. Proposed Changes General Changes 1. Add in automatic energy regen to all warframes, 0.5/s – 1/s. Reduce the amount of energy ball drops. Change the energy leach nightmare mode to no energy ball drops or no energy regen (but not both). - For a game where uniqueness is primarily based on abilities, I don't feel a mode that removes that distinction (or requires having a specific item) is good for gameplay. This change would however force players to ration their abilities more. 2. Allow for stealth finishers on both unaware and alerted enemy while invisible. Warframe Changes Ash (Melee Frame) 1. Replace Shuriken with a Shout or AoE ability -Idea 1: Self Buff that increases crit rate, crit damage, and/or attack speed (Weak Points) -Idea 2: Shuriken Barrage (Multiple shuriken that do bleed damage, maybe slow debuff as well) 2. Make Teleport a free-target ability with a fixed 5m stagger at the target point for a short time. 3. Smokescreen Augment should have the same range as Smokescreen. Creates a blinding cloud instead of staggering. Excalibur (Melee Frame) 1. Replace Super Jump with a Shout -Idea 1: Self buff causing increased attack speed, movement speed, reach and/or channeling damage. 2. Make Radial Javalin finisher damage. Loki (CC Frame) 1. Make Decoys illusions, they only expire at the end of their duration, do no damage, and enemies firing through them do friendly fire. Oberon (Support Frame) 1. Have an augment that allows smite to be used for ranged revival like nekros's soul punch augment. Trinity (Medic) 1. Change Well of Life to a single target healing/ buff ability. Make an augment allowing for ranged revival. Vauban (Unique) 1. Replace Bounce with something like Nova's Wormhole, with aimed teleport on setup and a good visual indicator (I'm still confused on why Nova has that since anti-matter has nothing to do with wormholes). Zephyr (Air Support) 1. Merge Dive Bomb with Tail Wind, upon contact with the ground, it causes an explosion and cancels flight. 2. Add some sort of bomb debuff (rooting or stunning) targeting the area directly beneath her, which would be effectively a self-centered AoE when on the ground. 3. Make Tornado a single large tornado with an Eye of no-effect in the middle. Edit: Reasoning -Stealth attacks while invisible make complete thematic sense. -The reasoning for the energy regen is explained, but is definitely an option for gameplay which I think would be useful to include if not just for debate. Ash -Smokescreen augment change makes sense both thematically and technically, why would there be a different range from a smoke bomb? -Teleport currently serves as a gap closer, but not a gap creator. A ninja should be using hit and run tactics, and there is no reason why someone who could teleport would not teleport out of a sticky situation. The changes would allow for the same stagger functionality as before, and also provides a bit more survivability right after arrival in the middle of combat. -Shuriken is a useless ability, and provides no more thematic flavor than a passive boosting use of kunai, despair, and hikou. A new themed ability seems far more appropriate given limited ability spots. A buff would be the easiest to implement, and assassins deal with high speed attacks to weak points (attack speed and crit rate/damage). Excalibur -Finisher damage on Radial Javalin allows the ability to scale better. -Super Jump doesn't fit the concept of a swordsman very well, so a new ability seems appropriate. Again, a buff is the easiest to think of and Excalibur already has the main gameplay requirements a melee character (gap closer/creator, AoE CC, Ultimate). Loki -Is themed after a trickster god, who is also a master of illusions, makes more thematic sense. Also, who can't see a trickster laugh as enemy's smack each other trying to hit him. Oberon/Trinity -Ranged revive augment is just plain useful, and it makes thematic sense for a paladin and a healer. Vauban -Mythically, wormholes are related to black holes (no real proof either way in the real world), and have nothing to do with antimatter. The multi-use enemy/teammate teleport is also very fitting gameplay-wise for the character and is more useful as well. The most fitting options I see would be to give Vauban wormhole and give Nova a different anti-matter themed ability, or to create some sort of teleporter device fulfilling the same function and leaving Nova alone. Yes, this is the most drastic suggestion of them all, I know. Theory-Crafting Melee Frames Movement Utility Shout/Buff Ultimate Shout/Buff+ Ash Teleport Smokescreen ??? Blade Storm ??? Excalibur Slash Dash Radial Blind ??? Radial Javalin ??? Rhino Rhino Charge Iron Skin Roar Rhino Stomp Damage Valkyr Rip Line Paralysis Warcry Hysteria Attack Speed/Armor Thoughts Warframe abilities need to scale in terms of damage, or they need to have some sort of utility which scales. Due to the massive number of enemies at high level, purely single target abilities are useless without some sort of side effect (Exception: solo target player abilities). For Melee Warframes, they need some sort of gap closer and creator, which is used to prevent themselves from getting gunned down. Ash needs to have teleport adjusted to a free target ability, as it can only close gaps, not create them. Looking at the melee Warframes, both Ash and Excalibur have useless abilities. Ash has shuriken, which while it fits the ninja theme, is useless at hgher difficulties. Excalibur has super jump, which is just a generally useless ability with all the other movement options. Both of these frames also lack a buff/shout skill, which the other melee Warframes, Rhino and Valkyr, have. It would be fitting to replace these useless abilities with buffs that would help in melee combat. Ash is a ninja, so should get one/some of the following, +Crit Chance, +Attack Speed, +Damage. That or something that allows finisher moves when behind any enemy. (I also think that stealth finishers should be available while invisible, but that's a general gameplay change). Excalibur is a sword frame, so I was thinking something like “Energy Weapon”, +Reach, +Channeling Damage. I also think that Roar should also do some sort of debuff to the enemy, either -%damage or a brief terrify. Having the shouts be AoE by default or through an augment sets melee frames apart by having a melee squad buff. Support Frames Targeted AoE AoE Healing Utility Ultimate Nekros Soul Punch Life Drain(new) Terrify Shadows of the Dead Oberon Smite Renewal Hallowed Ground Reckoning Trinity Well of Life Utility(Link) Energy Syphon Blessing Thoughts It seems to me that one of the uses of desecrate is to produce health orbs. This combined with the augment to soul punch brings Nekros into the realm of support/healer. By changing desecrate to Life Drain, it allows Nekros to fill in as a healer. It also should allow healing of his minions, which is a nice way to keep them alive. Trinity's current effect on Well of Life seems somewhat lacking, though it can be used to isolate an enemy. I feel that some sort of single target heal/buff would be more fitting of the medic. I also think that all three warframes should have a line of sight ranged revival, which seems to be most easily implemented by adding it to the targeted abilities. This sets the support frames slightly apart from other frames as to how they contribute to the squad, as they can both heal allies and do a ranged revive. Caster Frames Targeted AoE AoE Utility Ultimate Banshee Sonic Boom Silence Sonar Sound Quake Ember Fireball Fireblast Accelerant World on Fire Frost Freeze Ice Wave Snow Globe Avalanche Nova Null Star Antimater Drop Worm Hole Molecular Prime Nyx Mind Control Psychic Bolts Chaos Absorb Mag Pull Bullet Attactor Shield Polarize Crush Volt Shock Electric Shield Speed Overload Thoughts Casters all have a single target ability that affects multiple enemies with either the direct effect or through the after-effect. They also all have an AoE ability (Except Volt, who has a second utility), an Utility Ability that provides a useful function to the squad, and an ultimate. Casters bring AoE damage to the squad, at the expense of being squishy. Unique Frames Hydroid – Water Themed Hybid Melee Caster Saryn – Poison Themed Hybid Melee Caster Limbo – Rift Themed Mesa – Gunslinger Themed Vauban – Item Themed Mirage – Trickster Themed Loki - Trickster Themed, see above. Zephyr – Air Support - Dive bomb's current effect could easily be merged with tail wind, and probably should, canceling flight and causing an explosion when the ground is hit. This leaves room for some other ability. With the gravity immune portion of Tail Wind, Zephyr can stay in the air for long periods. Turbulence provides shield from long range, and Tornado works as an ultimate. I would add some sort of bomb debuff (rooting or stunning) targeting the area directly beneath her, which would be effectively a self-centered AoE when on the ground. For Tornado, I feel like the ability would be much cooler if it was just a single large tornado, centered around zephyr at the start, with a small eye of no-effect in the middle. Thoughts Most people are used to playing the “Holy Trinity”, Damage Dealer (Melee Frames), Healer (Support Frames), Mage (Caster Frames). Due to this it make a lot of sense to have the three categories above have a few warframes each. Each of the arframes in these sections need some differentiation, but since they are the basis of a squad they should all be somewhat interchangable (which is why they are somewhat similar). While these types of frames are necessary, I agree that if that was all there was then there would be stagnation in the gameplay. However, these categories are sufficiently established that adding unique frame concepts is both feasible and desireable, allowing for emergent gameplay through squad synergy. I'm still somewhat unsure what type of role Saryn is supposed to have, and it may make sense to push her towards a melee frame role. I also think that adding another support frame would be a good idea for gameplay, but not necessary. Edit: Apparently I need to add some sort of disclaimer. These are my impressions of the game so far, suggestions that might improved gamplay (might not too), not dictations. Most of these changes are already on the forums in multiple other posts (like the loki decoy, ash teleport, stealth finishers while invis). The changes that have not been expressed elsewhere are : 1. Replacing Shuriken and Super Jump (Both considered fairly useless) with a buff ability. Thus providing more utility to the squad as a whole. 2. Giving Oberon and Trinity, which are healing frames, a ranged revive augment. Suggestions on what the buffs would do, and how the ranged revives would work, are purposefully vague as I don't know the community or dev wishes. I made the comment about being new to imply that these are general suggestion that should be taken with a grain of salt due to my inexperience, not to get flamed for it. Edited January 6, 2015 by Aldarin_Blackwing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesecratedPoop Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 This will be a long post, proposed changes in the first section, reasons and theory-crafting in the second. I haven't been playing the game very long, but found that many of these changes resonate with the issues I've had with the current state of the game. I tend to do theory crafting on all of the games I play, so here are the changes I've come up with. Incidentally, many of the changes I thought of have already been expressed in other posts on the forum. Some comments on your post: 1. Then maybe you should refrain from dictating how certain Warframes should work until you've had more experience? Generally people don't take it well when someone starts bossing everyone around on their first day at the job. 2. Stop calling things "shouts", it's only going to provoke people who dislike copying from other games "buff/debuff" is enough. 3. You are too eager to completely remove abilities and replace them with new ones. Read Archwizard's response to my question on the previous page to find out why this is a bad idea. 4. You are classifying Warframes into roles with no justification, and your roles in general are quite loosely defined. It seems that you want to make it so that there must be a Warframe of each role in every party, and turn roles more like those of a classic RPG, not everyone agrees with that. 5. The same can be said about your ability classifications. You can classify abilities a million ways, and none of them would be wrong. Stop thinking about what category an ability is supposed to fall in, and changing it to suit that category. Instead, try to regard the ability individually, as if it is unique. Try to discern what purpose the ability itself is supposed to accomplish and decide whether or not it is fulfilling its purpose adequately. 6. Opinions. Apart from Nekros, there isn't a single Warframe that should be subjective in terms of what changes they need. You need to be more objective with your arguments, stop thinking "I can do it better this way" Also, stop saying "Most people..." if you don't have the statistics/public support that back it up. 7. Free energy regen is heavily dependent on what direction the devs want to take the game in. You want the game to be more centered around constant ability use, but once again, not everyone wants to play that way. I'm sure Archwizard can give better answers than me, but I'll give you a head start on improving your suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Just to bounce some ideas off the wall... Replacement for Dive Bomb: Whirlwind Cyclone Tempest: Zephyr fires a wide spiral blast of wind, dealing damage to and inflicting knockdown on all foes in the way, but propelling herself away. - Dive Bomb merged into Tail Wind, bringing her to the ground at high speed whenever she aims downward. No longer creates a shockwave. - Divebomb Vortex renamed Wind Tunnel: If Tempest strikes a surface, nearby enemies are pulled toward the impact point. - Flying enemies will be knocked out of the air.- If the attack is aimed downward, the self-knockback would counteract gravity. Replacement for Pool of Life: - Casting Well on an ally grants them life drain, up to an amount affected by rank. - Casting Well on an ally grants them a barrier against damage, up to an amount or duration affected by rank. Current considerations for Surging Dash:- Slash Dash now deals its damage in a series of X rapid hits to a target over Y sec, staggering them for the duration. --> While Slash Dash would add to the combo counter baseline, the augment would explain additional hits. - Using Slash Dash also adds X Slash damage to your next Y melee attacks. Open to discussion. Edited January 8, 2015 by Archwizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Regarding Mesa, I had a few thoughts: * Ballistic Battery * This one could be revamped in many ways. So, here goes a bunch of different proposals: Version 1 * The initial cast is onehanded * The chargeup is the same * The second cast is Mesa drawing one of her Regulator pistols, and shooting instantly (super-duper-quick draw, as fast as her ulti animations). This shot has Punchthrough and shoots all the collected power at once. Power Range affects the Punchthrough bonus. Power Duration remains unused. Version 2 * The initial cast is onehanded * The chargeup is the same * The second cast causes Mesa to empower her weaponry like now, but each shot fired from her weapon only expends 25% of the charge. When an attack is charged like this (no matter how little percentage is used in the empowered shot), it gains 100% accuracy and adds 1 meter punchthrough (or 1 meter bigger radius for explosives). Power Range affects the punchthrough/radius boost. Power Duration reduces how much the charge is consumed, without affecting the total damage of it! Version 3 * There is no initial cast. It always charges up passively! * Upon second cast, similar to version 1, Mesa instantly draws her Regulator pistol and shoots a punchthrough shot with it. However, this only expends 25% of the max power, but each of these shots also costs up to 25 energy (energy cost depends on how much power is consumed per shot). I think Version 1 is the simplest (and is the same as your proposal, pretty much, no?). But I dislike that it has ZERO use from Power Duration on it. What effect could be added to it without feeling slapped on? I also kinda dislike that you discharge everything in one shot, which often just results in overkill. But I guess that is still ok, since it does fit that "duel" kind of nature of Gunslingers, the one shot, one kill you know? * Shooting Gallery * I like your proposal of it as an aura instead. However, considering its buff is actually kinda weak (compare to Roar), how about increasing weapon damage, fire rate AND reload speed? Nothing too big, 25% on all of them sounds good imo. * Shatter Shield * This one I'd revamp COMPLETELY, to make it more of a reactive ability. For it to make more sense, consider my proposal of changes to the ultimate too: * Showdown * Slows down all enemies and allies (Mesa herself too) by about 15%, within a global range (!). All enemies and enemy projectiles that get within a range of 10/12/16/20 meters of Mesa are slowed down much more. Enemies are slowed down by an additional 5/10/15/20%, while projectiles are slowed down by 70/75/80/85% (or more, just to give time to dodge them). Note: Hitscan shots are converted to have a travel time too! Enemy projectiles that still DO hit Mesa or any of her allies within this powerful aura, are weakened by 10/15/20/25%. This revamp would make the skill more engaging: You don't just passively tank the bullets (as easily), but you are given time to actively dodge them, more fitting for a Gunslinger. Power Strength - Affects damage reduction (not the slowdowns though). Capped at 50% instead of 95%. Power Range - Affects the more potent slowdown aura range (NEW!) Power Duration - Affects ability duration Now combine this with the ultimate and the additions for it: * Peacemaker * Mesa shoots closer where you are aiming as a priority, but is otherwise still randomized. When shots are randomized, then nearby enemies are shot first. Mesa can also dodge in any direction during this skill (not just forward), by pressing a direction plus your rollkey (default clicking Shift), and they are done very, very quickly (just like the shooting animations are), but these highspeed dodges has a slight cooldown between uses and consumes a lot of stamina, or maybe a bit of Energy instead? Power Strength - Affects damage Power Range - Affects shooting range (?) and dodging range (NEW!) Power Duration - Affects dodge cooldown (more duration = less cooldown) Our thoughts are kind of similar to what could be changed, just that we give different abilities different functions, pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 * Ballistic Battery * * Showdown * Slows down all enemies and allies (Mesa herself too) by about 15%, within a global range (!). All enemies and enemy projectiles that get within a range of 10/12/16/20 meters of Mesa are slowed down much more. Enemies are slowed down by an additional 5/10/15/20%, while projectiles are slowed down by 70/75/80/85% (or more, just to give time to dodge them). Note: Hitscan shots are converted to have a travel time too! Enemy projectiles that still DO hit Mesa or any of her allies within this powerful aura, are weakened by 10/15/20/25%. This revamp would make the skill more engaging: You don't just passively tank the bullets (as easily), but you are given time to actively dodge them, more fitting for a Gunslinger. Power Strength - Affects damage reduction (not the slowdowns though). Capped at 50% instead of 95%. Power Range - Affects the more potent slowdown aura range (NEW!) Power Duration - Affects ability duration * Peacemaker * - i like 1&3 for Ballistic Battery. i'd be fine with either. i just think Ballistic Battery not using her Regulators is borderline idiotic. they're only used for one Ability. and entire Warframes' gimmick for only one Ability? you're off your rocker. - this redo of Shatter Shield sounds like a lot more fun than the current. instead of instant godmode, something that's engaging for the Player to use. - i will be unable to like Peacemaker as long as it's basically a 'press button go AFK' type of Ability. a gun version of Hysteria is the basic guidelines of what i have in mind for the Ability. but it's flexible as long as the Player is actually... playing. what i definitely know is that it's current state is one of the definitions of boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) - i like 1&3 for Ballistic Battery. i'd be fine with either. i just think Ballistic Battery not using her Regulators is borderline idiotic. they're only used for one Ability. and entire Warframes' gimmick for only one Ability? you're off your rocker. - this redo of Shatter Shield sounds like a lot more fun than the current. instead of instant godmode, something that's engaging for the Player to use. - i will be unable to like Peacemaker as long as it's basically a 'press button go AFK' type of Ability. a gun version of Hysteria is the basic guidelines of what i have in mind for the Ability. but it's flexible as long as the Player is actually... playing. what i definitely know is that it's current state is one of the definitions of boring. - I think #1 is still probably the wisest, as it is the closest to what we already have. I'd like it to have some lingering effect on targets that are hit though, so Power Duration has a use. Something fitting, not just a random slow/accuracy debuff that has been done to death. - Yeah, exactly, it feels way too strong imo. Something that makes her feel capable of using agility to avoid danger, rather than just being a bullet-soaker, seems way more in line for a Gunslinger, imo. - You know, I kinda like how Peacemaker works currently *shrugs*. If it was just "gun-mode-Hysteria*, I'd be far less inclined to use it, and instead just stick to my guns and only use the other 3 abilities all the time. Could maybe be because I don't just AFK with it, I keep on the move a lot. But it's also the reason for my dodge-suggestion on it, in combination with the Shatter Shield revamp: It is still seriously powerful, but you better be active and use its dodge, otherwise you are gonna be shot to bits! (Note: I kinda hate Hysteria, mainly since you have to use the best melee weapon to make the most of it, due to how it works, which totally sucks out any kind of variety of it. Hence why I prefer to mainly use the other 3 abilities instead and use my OWN melee weapon. Hysteria is only for emergencies. If Hysteria's claws were OPTIONAL, so you could swap between them and your own melee weapon during it, I'd use it way more! Hence why I'd hate Peacemaker to be gun-mode-Hysteria, since it would probably have to scale from pistol mods etc, which is totally boring, imo). Edited January 5, 2015 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hence why I'd hate Peacemaker to be gun-mode-Hysteria, since it would probably have to scale from pistol mods etc not what i had in mind. all i had in mind was a 'lol special mode' that you used Regulators in. using the Ability would draw them, each shot would drain a bit of Energy. it would be almost like switching Weapons, just press a different button to draw them, shoot some things, then put them away again when you don't want to use them anymore. perhaps an AoE Slow while you have them drawn, like 20% or something. and ofcourse like Ballistic Battery, Regulators should always have Punch-Through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) * Shatter Shield * This one I'd revamp COMPLETELY, to make it more of a reactive ability. For it to make more sense, consider my proposal of changes to the ultimate too: * Showdown * Slows down all enemies and allies (Mesa herself too) by about 15%, within a global range (!). All enemies and enemy projectiles that get within a range of 10/12/16/20 meters of Mesa are slowed down much more. Enemies are slowed down by an additional 5/10/15/20%, while projectiles are slowed down by 70/75/80/85% (or more, just to give time to dodge them). Note: Hitscan shots are converted to have a travel time too! Enemy projectiles that still DO hit Mesa or any of her allies within this powerful aura, are weakened by 10/15/20/25%. This revamp would make the skill more engaging: You don't just passively tank the bullets (as easily), but you are given time to actively dodge them, more fitting for a Gunslinger. Power Strength - Affects damage reduction (not the slowdowns though). Capped at 50% instead of 95%. Power Range - Affects the more potent slowdown aura range (NEW!) Power Duration - Affects ability duration So... basically Bullet Time, without the delayed charge or teleport. Edited January 5, 2015 by Archwizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azamagon Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 So... basically Bullet Time, without the delayed charge or teleport. Yeah, exactly. I instead had the short-distance dodge/teleport be a part of being in the Peacemaker mode, to make it more interactive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yeah, exactly. I instead had the short-distance dodge/teleport be a part of being in the Peacemaker mode, to make it more interactive. Seems sort of unnecessary or useless, if it can't get past the universal slow from Showdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redhux Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Hey Fun ideas overall. About Saryn, i think she's fine as she is right now, exception done about her speed that could be increased. (Molt is fantastic, don't try to change it ^^) Maybe a little increase on range (Miasma) eventually. :D Edited January 7, 2015 by Redhux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holynight6 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Hitscan is instant, you can't turn a Hitscan into a projectile mid flight because it never flies. 50% of infinite speed is still infinite. If you're wanting something similar, every enemies weapons could fire projectiles for the duration. Although I can already see the lag coming. Cool idea, but impossible to implement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Hitscan is instant, you can't turn a Hitscan into a projectile mid flight because it never flies. 50% of infinite speed is still infinite. things like Absorb and Bullet Attractor convert all Projectiles that enter them into one type of Projectile. (with some exceptions such as Glaives, because stealing someones' Melee Weapon and deleting it - lel) do the same. Edited January 7, 2015 by taiiat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) About Zephyr changes: As a huge Zephyr fan, I wouldn't like Tail Wind and Dive Bomb to be merged into one skill. Probably that's because I'm a PS4 player, but I don't find it to be convenient. What I think is need to be done is giving Zephyr some more floatiness. After one of the recent updates Zephyr is barely controllable in mid-air, which is very annoying. One idea which probably might work pretty good, is make Zephyr hover (or descending very slow) while you aiming down your sights in mid-air. Maybe even slowly drain energy (like 1/sec) while you're hovering. And returning to Dive Bomb, I think it might be a good idea to give it a ground variation, maybe even different skill with similar, but slightly tweaked effect. Something like 360 degree cutting wind blow, which knocks everyone down (maybe even pushes everyone away), with a chance of bleeding proc (kinda like an Art of Wind Blades ninpo in Ninja Gaiden 2), but low damage (around 250) The skill itself might be different, that was just an idea, but I think Zephyr definitely need some ground variation of Dive Bomb, so when you enable it in the air it does a Dive Bomb, and when you do it on the ground it does a different skill. Edit: Oh, and another thing I'd like to be tweaked is "AI" of Tornadoes. They never go where they should go, and they rarely spawn where they should spawn. Like if there's multiple groups of enemies, all 4 Tornadoes often choose the same group, instead of spawning one at each group, which reduces the effectiveness by a LOT. Edited January 7, 2015 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerelHawdos Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Zephyr is fine as is. Edited January 7, 2015 by BerelHawdos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 As a huge Zephyr fan, I wouldn't like Tail Wind and Dive Bomb to be merged into one skill. Probably that's because I'm a PS4 player, but I don't find it to be convenient. What I think is need to be done is giving Zephyr some more floatiness. After one of the recent updates Zephyr is barely controllable in mid-air, which is very annoying. One idea which probably might work pretty good, is make Zephyr hover (or descending very slow) while you aiming down your sights in mid-air. Maybe even slowly drain energy (like 1/sec) while you're hovering. I hadn't considered how it might affect console players; I figured that it would be similar enough to aerial melee to adapt, but I suppose an easy button is an easy button. Admittedly, I've made similar a suggestion for her passive before. Part of the trouble is, there are other weapon effects out there (such as delayed explosives, alternate fire effects or blocking) already occupying the zoom function, which would greatly impede the concept of air-sniping - and an effect that can be toggled on at any time by the player, especially one that actively drains energy, is hardly what I'd call a "passive". Edit: Oh, and another thing I'd like to be tweaked is "AI" of Tornadoes. They never go where they should go, and they rarely spawn where they should spawn. Like if there's multiple groups of enemies, all 4 Tornadoes often choose the same group, instead of spawning one at each group, which reduces the effectiveness by a LOT. Something else I've been meaning to gather some discussion about. Anything you had in mind? Zephyr is fine as is. Disagree. Regardless of whether you agree with my suggestions, she has implementation issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XToxinator Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yes. All warframes do need to have fair balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awazx Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Zephyr is fine as is. NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holynight6 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 things like Absorb and Bullet Attractor convert all Projectiles that enter them into one type of Projectile. (with some exceptions such as Glaives, because stealing someones' Melee Weapon and deleting it - lel) do the same. You clearly didn't understand my point. Changing projectiles is quite easy. They're essentially a rapidly moving object/model with additional properties. You can simply modify the properties of said object. Hitscan weapons do not use objects. A line is drawn from the weapon, and where that line hits an object a hit is registered. It's not a game object, it's a calculation. The 'bullet' is never fired, nor does it arrive. You pull the trigger and the target takes damage. OPs post mentioned slowing hitscan weapons down by a %. Thus why I corrected. It cannot be done since they have no speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpite Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 A corp mate that said needed Plat had a Vanguard Helmet, and I gave him extra Plat as a xmas present. It if dropped to 15% from 25% even before I get to zoom-zoom for a month or two I will be terribly un-impressed, just FYI ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BETAOPTICS Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Looking at the conversations about Mesa got me thinking about another issue I had with her artstyle and the cognitive disconnection with her abilities. She has this belt that seems to have some kinds of grenades (?) attached to it, why does not she use them at all. What would better suit a gunslinger-weapon oriented Warframe than to make them use tons of different sorts of weapons and equipment at their disposal. Grenades, Peacemaker pistols and so on so forth. I remember that before she was released, and I saw that belt, I personally got the impression that we would be able to get some sort of grenade barrage ability, after all her art style suggests that she would be able to do so. This however was not the case at all and I felt cognitively disconnected about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I hadn't considered how it might affect console players; I figured that it would be similar enough to aerial melee to adapt, but I suppose an easy button is an easy button. It's not something you wouldn't be able to adapt to, but it would definitely take away a second or so to aim down and swipe the touch pad down, which only would make Dive Bomb even more useless. Directional air melee is fine, however doing ground slams is not an easy task anymore on consoles. Admittedly, I've made similar a suggestion for her passive before. Part of the trouble is, there are other weapon effects out there (such as delayed explosives, alternate fire effects or blocking) already occupying the zoom function, which would greatly impede the concept of air-sniping - and an effect that can be toggled on at any time by the player, especially one that actively drains energy, is hardly what I'd call a "passive". Hm, it might be a problem for those weapons. The only other button I can think of mapping it to is a "crouch" button, but with the way air sliding works, I'm not sure it would be a good idea either. Something else I've been meaning to gather some discussion about. Anything you had in mind? Well, I'm not a programmer or something, so I'm not sure if it would be possible this way, but here is my idea - when you cast Tornado, it should determine the number of groups of enemies. The definition of a group is something that need to be tested to make it more effective, but let's say it's 5+ enemies standing within 5-10 meters. Heavy units should be counted as 2 enemies (or maybe even 3), because if there's 3 Heavy Gunners standing in the same spot you definitely want a tornado to go there. Next it should choose the largest groups (still counting Heavies as 2 or 3) and spawn one tornado at each one. However there should be a minimum distance of 10(?) meters between tornadoes, to maximize the spread, unless there are no more groups. This is just a suggestion, and need some testing to determine the effectiveness in different situations. Feel free to add any thoughts I might have forgotten about. (also I'm terrible at expressing my thoughts, so I definitely forgot something I wanted to say) Also I think the chance of enemies getting out of Tornado should be minimal. It should still be there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 OPs post mentioned slowing hitscan weapons down by a %. Thus why I corrected. It cannot be done since they have no speed. things like Absorb and Bullet Attractor convert all Projectiles that enter them into one type of Projectile. [size=7]this includes Raytrace Projectiles[/size]. that's how you 'slow down' Raytrace Projectiles. you can slow them down to whatever speed you want that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archwizard Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) You clearly didn't understand my point. Changing projectiles is quite easy. They're essentially a rapidly moving object/model with additional properties. You can simply modify the properties of said object. Hitscan weapons do not use objects. A line is drawn from the weapon, and where that line hits an object a hit is registered. It's not a game object, it's a calculation. The 'bullet' is never fired, nor does it arrive. You pull the trigger and the target takes damage. OPs post mentioned slowing hitscan weapons down by a %. Thus why I corrected. It cannot be done since they have no speed. - Shatter Shield replaced with “Bullet Time”: Mesa gains one Dodge charge. When attacked, she expends the charge to briefly slow every hostile force around herself (including projectiles – hitscan attacks to enter the radius gain travel time, like an anti-Bullet Attractor); pressing a movement key while the effect is active will allow her to teleport a short distance away. What I meant by that is that the effect creates a dome akin to Bullet Attractor. Any projectile weapon fired within or any bullet to reach the edge is converted into a travel-time projectile, ie Lanka, Supra, etc, the same way that Bullet Attractor does for all projectiles to reach its edge (try it on Mag, you can visibly see bullets becoming shooting stars with BA up). The difference being, it has no effect on the trajectory, so it's physically possible for bullets to exit and simply accelerate. No, hitscan attacks couldn't be converted back into hitscan upon exiting. Otherwise, the tech is already there. No, I have no expectation for what it will do with hitscan bullets in-transit when it activates, because I know they won't be in-transit when she's casting it; as you said, they'll hit instantly. It's what follows that will be the reason for this field. You'll understand why the explanation in the OP was so short and sweet, considering no ability in the OP got an explanation THAT long. I figured the summation would make my mental image clear, as it appears to have for taiiat and others who have made similar suggestions. Apologies if I was wrong. A corp mate that said needed Plat had a Vanguard Helmet, and I gave him extra Plat as a xmas present. It if dropped to 15% from 25% even before I get to zoom-zoom for a month or two I will be terribly un-impressed, just FYI ... It's been a complaint about Rhino Prime's interaction with the helmet since his release. How much mileage you get out of it is up to the devs, not me. Edited January 8, 2015 by Archwizard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elydir Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 They did it again! Warframe Changes: Added Melee Combo Counter to Excalibur’s Slash Dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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