Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[GhostLacuna]

I can get the same effect by standing a slight distance away from a damn pillar that is between me and the enemy.  No need to use molt at all.

 

I beta tested enough AI components in games to know how to do that.

 

There are shooters out there that is more then 5 years old now that has better enemy ai then warframe. Shooters where i was actually flanked properly and the ai used group tactics.

 

abusing the AI is trival. That is not the focus of this discussion. The durability of molt is.

 

Its durability is a joke. Its base value is 500 health. it does not stand a chance even if you where to use say 185% power strength which few saryn players would use.

 

you should not have to abuse tricks like the old decoy under stairs trick against infested that DE since have fixed. Sure it was amusing to see infested attack the stairs head on to try to get to the decoy instead of going around and attack it. But that is AI abuse.

 

Heck i could abuse the places where they still have not fixed the clipping correctly and place it inside things. That is one way to make it more durable.

 

The question is why the hell should i have to abuse my meta knowledge about games to make the ability work?

 

Just by how the ability is designed lokis decoy is still the better decoy even if it has even lower health then molt.

 

if you have any momentum on saryn molt will be cast behind you. Enemy Ai aggro to what is closest which in this example is Saryn. 

 

Sure they switch target if you gtfo there but then molt lasts 2 seconds if you are lucky.  Then what?

 

how many molts are you going to cast in rapid succession until you realize its a waste of energy?

 

If i can place Molt in partial cover i can do the same for my frame.

 

I can use Movement 2.0 to get to places where i can just drop pizzas without worry. There are several places on all tilesets where the enemies cant even reach you.

 

Again what use do i have of a decoy that cant do its job?

 

Heck i can use a status gun and build for radiation and i have a better decoy.

 

Using molt is not hard its annoying because it does not do what DE described it should be able to do good enough. 

 

"shedding her skin like a snake, saryn leaves behind a decoy to draw fire from enemies."

 

my molt lasts for 16 seconds with 80% duration. It does not even have a uptime of 1/6 of that time. Frankly they could drop the duration on the skill to 2 seconds and few would even notice it.

[Towermice]

Blossoms? More like wilts, lmao.

[Archwizard]

if Molt is placed in a location where it's slightly exposed, but not enough to get a clear sight picture, Enemies will gladly spend it's entire Duration shooting at the Hard Cover that's protecting it.

they'll do nothing else.

 

Which works out in the case of Decoy for drawing fire, but half the point of Molt is that it's supposed to receive damage, so that it can be detonated via Miasma for the damage it's taken or spread Venom spores when hit.

 

As much as I'm uncertain recycling the same formula is the solution, the recommendation to have Molt absorb damage for a period would, at the very least, give both it and Miasma a form of scalability (albeit at an increased effective cost in the latter case).

 

Personally, I'm much more a fan of the idea of Molt being able to regenerate itself (the Miasma formula being adjusted to include its damage taken rather than simply its missing health), and Saryn's kit involving additional methods to slow down enemy output to the point that Molt is regrowing faster than they're breaking it. At this point though, it's a bit out of left field given the direction they've already taken her.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Archwizard

[Azamagon]

In regards to Saryn, I'm just gonna quote myself from the megathread:

To me, it seems like DE wants Saryn to be a close/midrange elusive debuffer.

 

They have almost nailed down the debuffer part. But the elusive part is highly missing, imo.

 

My suggestions are these:

 

-- Spores

* If I'd suggest anything else for Spores, it would be to make it so enemies are either slowed down a tiny bit (15%?) if they are affected by at least one spore (shouldn't slow down more if more spores are active) or that enemies are mini-staggered (as in, the shorter melee stagger, not the long impact stagger) when spores are popped. If neither of those things happen, it doesn't matter, as Spores is already a great power right now.

 

-- Molt

* Make it not only cleanse Saryn off debuffs, but also copy her buffs! All buffs that increase power strength or damage (like Roar, Provoke etc) should affect the Molt's explosion damage.

* Grant Saryn a brief amount of invisibility upon casting Molt, say, up to a max of 4 seconds (affected by Power Duration). This would emphasize her elusiveness greatly, as well as give her more potency at close range (due to invis melee multiplier).

* Recasting Molt shouldn't immediately recast a new Molt, it should both detonate the current Molt as well as remove Saryn's invisibility, whatever is remaining. This is both to give Molt a better detonation potential without the need to place a new Molt AND to make sure she can't be in invsibility at all times.

* Maybe give the Molt SLIGHTLY better durability, say 2 seconds of the Snow Globe treatment?

* Maybe also make the explosion damage bypass the environment and NOT to diminish with distance?

* Don't have Molt explode when Miasma is cast near it. Instead, have the Molt gain some of Miasma's damage "dealt" to Molt (it doesn't hurt the Molt, it just empowers Molt), to increase Molt's explosion damage instead! (This change is important for the suggestion I have for Miasma)

 

-- Toxic Lash

First a minor complaint: This is still a boring ability that is 100% reliant on a melee weapon. Having a power being so niched is Rift Surge-levels of bad design. No other power (besides Rift Surge) requires a specifc weapon or other abilities to get any use out of the ability. Sure, some abilities promote useage of certain weaponry (like Speed and Warcry boosting melee), but they have other non-niched uses on them too (movement speed and armorbuff+enemy slow, respectively). This power could either be simply improved, or redesigned a bit so it actually FEELS interesting.

Simply improving it:

* Make the damage resistance a plain protection bonus so it has a use outside of melee useage. This still keeps the ability rather boring though, so I prefer the following - Redesigning it to make it feel interesting:

* No longer improves blocking defenses

* Still buffs your melee weapon with the toxic bonuses (same effects and all; Spore bursting with energy replenishment etc)

* Now for the interesting part: Saryn also summons an energy whip/vine/snake (up to DE what it would look like ofc), which swirls around Saryn. Whenever an enemy gets close to Saryn, this energy whip will lash out at it, lashing at a rate of, say, 1 strike per second (rate unaffected by mods, and only strikes one enemy per lash). This lash has X base damage, but does the same thing as the melee weapon does (toxic proc, guranteed to pop spores which grant energy, contributes and benefits from the melee combo counter, does melee stagger). On top of this, while the ability is still active, the energy whip also provides you with some form of damage protection (just a flat damage reduction would do)

* Now for a further interesting bonus: If the ability is recasted (or when the ability ends by running out of duration), the energy whip will be removed, but will first do a wide arcing lash in front of Saryn before vanishing! This would make it possible to pop many spores at once, very, very quickly, at the expense of removing the energy whip. This effect could possibly also happen when you summon the energy whip (either on summoning, on ending, or both, doesn't matter really. Just something to make the ability more interactive overall)

* Power Range would affect the energy whip's lashing range (both the regular single target lashing as well as the wide arcing lash).

* Note that Molt was suggested to copy buffs from Saryn, this means that if you first cast Toxic Lash, then cast Molt, your Molt will also have the Toxic Lash ability on it!

 

-- Miasma

Make it consist of two things: Its current corrosive blastwave and also a toxic gascloud.

For the corrosive blastwave:

* Make its damage be quicker. An idea would be that this blast always deals its damage over 4 seconds. Increasing your Power Duration, rather than extending the duration, now would affect how many ticks of damage will be dealt during those 4 seconds. That would make it much burstier.

* Make each tick of damage have a 100% chance to proc Corrosive.

For the toxic gascloud:

* Where Saryn casts Miasma, a toxic cloud will also be spawned, which lingers on the cast location for X seconds (say up to 10 seconds?). This toxic cloud doesn't deal much (if any) damage, nor is it particularly big, but it does something more important: It causes enemies to be unable to see past the cloud! What this does in practice is to block enemies line of sight, forcing them to run closer to be able to acquire you and your allies inside / past the cloud! They could occasionally try to shoot into/past the cloud, but their accuracy would then be horrendous. Once they get inside the cloud, they can only see what is inside the cloud (maybe even with heavily reduced vision range?)

* For balance's sake, recasting Miasma should probably create a new toxic cloud at the new location at the cost of removing the old cloud first.

 

These changes would REALLY emphasize the three codewords: Midrange, Elusive and Debuffer

Debuffer - Already covered well (better so with the Corrosive procs on Miasma though)

Elusive - Invisibility on Molt and the LoS-blocking part of Miasma makes her really hard to target

Midrange - The ranges of her abilities, the Toxic Lash melee range powers, the invisibility on Molt allowing Saryn to get into closer range more safely, and likewise the LoS-blocking on Miasma bringing enemies closer to Saryn, all those things would really make her feel like she is supposed to be getting close to enemies / drawing enemies close to her.

 

Also think about FURTHER synergies that this would provide, such as this:  Cast Molt, Spore up the Molt, cast Miasma over it to further empower it and to draw enemies closer, then BLAM, explode the Molt once they are close!

 

What do you all think of that? :)

[taiiat]

Molt is supposed to receive damage now

this is true.

 

with that in mind (as i'm completely serious, this is the first legitimate reason to talk about Molt's durability that anyone has presented, everyone else has just said 'dies too fast' and hasn't explained anything about what they're doing at all.) i'd prefer Molt to act as a 'Totem Battery' for Saryn. store up Damage in it from your Abilities to use later.

and then, use that 'Battery' functionality as a way to increase it's survivability. if you pump Damage into it, that Damage also gives some benefit to Health.

 

ideally then, you'd be able to apply Status to it then, so that you can have 3x Miasma applied to Molt, storing it up like a Battery.

Edited November 15, 2015 by taiiat

[Tatersail]

this entire post makes me sad,

 

83 pages 1655 people adding feedback and suggestions, small ideas for change that would be a huge improvement.

Then you look at the.. "Victories" over the last few years and you have to wonder, why you bother!

[ImNotJellyAtAll]

IMO, it would be really nice if Hallowed Ground was changed to an aura with a duration. And Renewal should no longer have a toggle mechanic, instead being a duration-based heal over time, with an HP buff.

[NKDG]

Wonder if de will actually pay attention to this thread. It's a really good one and has a ton of good ideas.

[taiiat]

Wonder if de will actually pay attention to this thread.

as the 'official unofficial Warframe Abilities Thread', you can be 101% sure that an eye is kept on it.

[NKDG]

as the 'official unofficial Warframe Abilities Thread', you can be 101% sure that an eye is kept on it.

Kewl

[Rankii]

as the 'official unofficial Warframe Abilities Thread', you can be 101% sure that an eye is kept on it.

I really don't believe that.

[TheBrsrkr]

I really don't believe that.

(S)he said keep an eye on, not take as absolute gospel that must be implemented immediately in it's exact state. There are literal thousands of other threads,you know.

[Rankii]

(S)he said keep an eye on, not take as absolute gospel that must be implemented immediately in it's exact state. There are literal thousands of other threads,you know.

Even for "keeping an eye on" it doesn't seem likely.

[taiiat]

i should probably write this down in a more permanent location so:

 

from talk of wanting less restrictions on when Abilities can be cast and that 'innate Heavy Impact' Rhino is slated to get - i think it would be pretty neat if you could cast Stomp in the air, and the further from the ground that you end up hitting you are, the faster you'll fall, and the harder you'll hit, which could work into affecting the Shockwave that is Stomp.

the 'science' behind it ofcourse being that Rhino can at will make himself fall faster and harder. spess magic.

 

so the first half of Stomp would wait for you to hit the ground before it played. so you'd go halfway through the 'stomp the ground' Animation, and finish it when you hit the ground.

we can reduce the effective Range by default, and the maximum Shockwave bonus could multiply Final Range by... 2?

so 18m new default, falling from a good height doubling it.

 

as well as slowing down the 'shockwave' travel, so that it's like a tidal wave of force rather than hitting everything nearly instantaneously.

thinking 75% of the speed of MPrime default, the maximum Shockwave bonus increasing that speed by 75%. speed not affected by Mods, not looking to make this another Molecular Prime, just happens to share a vaguely similar mechanic.

most importantly, Enemies would only be thrown into the air and into Stasis when the Shockwave 'rolls' to them.

 

 

this is a pretty neat idea if you ask me, serving a wide multitude of purposes while making an Ability more interesting to use. you can use it to get to the ground super fast just for mobility, fall from higher locations to create more of an impact with your Shockwave, able to 'pre cast' in anticipation of a lot of Enemies you want to CC, able to hit more Enemies than were in what would have been the Range of the original casting with how it works now, Et Cetera.

 

 

certainly should look a lot cooler, while the end result is the capability for more effectiveness than it has currently, but requires the user to put it to good use.

I really don't believe that.

wear a tinfoil hat if you'd like :D

not my problem.

 

just don't expect things based on tinfoil hats to end up being accurate.

[Rankii]

-jesus thats a lot of text-

wear a tinfoil hat if you'd like :D

not my problem.

 

just don't expect things based on tinfoil hats to end up being accurate.

I'm just being realistic; there's little reason to so I can't see it being a thing. I mean how long where there "please redo limbo" threads?

Edited November 22, 2015 by Rankii

[TheGrimCorsair]

i should probably write this down in a more permanent location so:

 

from talk of wanting less restrictions on when Abilities can be cast and that 'innate Heavy Impact' Rhino is slated to get - i think it would be pretty neat if you could cast Stomp in the air, and the further from the ground that you end up hitting you are, the faster you'll fall, and the harder you'll hit, which could work into affecting the Shockwave that is Stomp.

the 'science' behind it ofcourse being that Rhino can at will make himself fall faster and harder. spess magic.

 

so the first half of Stomp would wait for you to hit the ground before it played. so you'd go halfway through the 'stomp the ground' Animation, and finish it when you hit the ground.

we can reduce the effective Range by default, and the maximum Shockwave bonus could multiply Final Range by... 2?

so 18m new default, falling from a good height doubling it.

 

as well as slowing down the 'shockwave' travel, so that it's like a tidal wave of force rather than hitting everything nearly instantaneously.

thinking 75% of the speed of MPrime default, the maximum Shockwave bonus increasing that speed by 75%. speed not affected by Mods, not looking to make this another Molecular Prime, just happens to share a vaguely similar mechanic.

most importantly, Enemies would only be thrown into the air and into Stasis when the Shockwave 'rolls' to them.

 

 

this is a pretty neat idea if you ask me, serving a wide multitude of purposes while making an Ability more interesting to use. you can use it to get to the ground super fast just for mobility, fall from higher locations to create more of an impact with your Shockwave, able to 'pre cast' in anticipation of a lot of Enemies you want to CC, able to hit more Enemies than were in what would have been the Range of the original casting with how it works now, Et Cetera.

 

 

certainly should look a lot cooler, while the end result is the capability for more effectiveness than it has currently, but requires the user to put it to good use.

wear a tinfoil hat if you'd like :D

not my problem.

 

just don't expect things based on tinfoil hats to end up being accurate.

 

Shouldn't that be how Divebomb works instead?

[TheBrsrkr]

I'm just being realistic; there's little reason to so I can see it being a thing. I mean how long where there "please redo limbo" threads?

What about the "redo Hydroid" threads? And Oberon? And Chroma? And Ember, and Nyx, and Ash, and Rhino....

What about the threads about weapons? Mechanics? Systems? What about bugs? What about Archwing? What about PvP? What about relays? What about the required mods rework? What about trials? What about the star chart rework? You're missing the scope here.

[TheBrsrkr]

Shouldn't that be how Divebomb works instead?

Why not both?

[taiiat]

Shouldn't that be how Divebomb works instead?

 

though Divebomb already works that way(except for the expanding Shockwave, Divebomb hits it's small area instantaneously). it just feels really unimpressive even at maximum Velocity/Height effectiveness increase.

plus missing Enemies if they're slightly above or below you, and blah blah.

 

lots of good reasons why Divebomb being merged into Tailwind has been asked so much. it's not terribly effective (but is kind've okay as long as the vertical missing is fixed), so keeping it but adding a new Ability in place that has a wider set of tools makes for a Warframe... with more useful Tools.

Edited November 22, 2015 by taiiat

[ImNotJellyAtAll]

It would be pretty nice if casting Smoke Screen gave enemies an accuracy debuff. Ash needs some utility to bring to a squad, and deployable cover would be pretty nice to take the heat off of enemies.

[Archwizard]

this entire post makes me sad,

 

83 pages 1655 people adding feedback and suggestions, small ideas for change that would be a huge improvement.

Then you look at the.. "Victories" over the last few years and you have to wonder, why you bother!

 

Keep in mind, the section in the OP is simply a compilation of implemented fringe ideas that (far as I've ever been able to tell) originated within this thread. Several changes have been implemented to many frames that aren't listed in the OP simply because the suggestions for those particular solutions were already incredibly wide-spread throughout the community, even if this thread did promote them.

[Elydir]

Any thoughts on what to add for Wukong yet?

[tnccs215]

this might sound a bit bad, but can I make a bit of "self" promotion of my equinox changes in here? (sorry, but I really am not in the mood of writting another wall of text) 
You can find it https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/564142-an-unhealthy-analysis-and-tweaks-proposal-thread-for-equinox/'>here

Edited November 30, 2015 by tnccs215

[Archwizard]

Any thoughts on what to add for Wukong yet?

 

Bit soon and I haven't had a chance to play him (friggin Nitain). Same with Ivara.

 

Far as I can tell just from a glance though, their kits seem fine. I've seen a mix of satisfaction and complaint from people who seemed to achieve immortality with Wukong.

[Archwizard]

From what I can tell so far of Ivara's kit, it... doesn't really need anything.

Hek, my only complaint I could have is that other kits (save maybe Equinox') aren't as versatile. Even then, Equinox lacks the tight-knit synergy, favoring broad utilities.

 

At worst, my main complaint about Wukong's kit is Iron Jab being sort of bland, but even then I'm presently devoid of ideas to improve it.

 

I really don't believe that.

 

Believe what you like. I choose to believe DE looks to some of the higher-rated and active threads when it comes to feedback, or questions of what solutions to pull out.

 

this might sound a bit bad, but can I make a bit of "self" promotion of my equinox changes in here? (sorry, but I really am not in the mood of writting another wall of text) 
You can find it here

 

Don't mind at all. Though I don't particularly agree with all of your ideas, you have as much right as anyone to put them out there. Plus, you make a few good points.

 

It would be pretty nice if casting Smoke Screen gave enemies an accuracy debuff. Ash needs some utility to bring to a squad, and deployable cover would be pretty nice to take the heat off of enemies.

 

Thing about Ash is, part of his innate design is that he sacrifices teamplay for personal utilities. That said, if he were to have a team interaction, I would think it to be more offensively oriented than defensive, especially given the number of frames who already have deployable cover skills now (Frost, Volt, Atlas).

Edited December 7, 2015 by Archwizard