Nikana Sheathing Animation Feedback

[Casardis]

Note: Previously named "Sheathing Katana 101," this is a new animation feedback following the previous subject, which was pre-U13.

 

 

Now that Geoff fixed the idle position of the blade to be face up like a katana usually would, it seems another problem has surfaced. It does look more like an oversight to me due to the kinda-last minute changes from the katana sheathing position after the team has taken notice of it.

 

After a Tenno throws an attack with the sword, they will do a quick sheathing animation. THAT animation is still flawed as it uses the previous “blade down” position. It’s only after sheathing completely that they turn their sword around, which doesn’t make sense in practice.

 

You can see it from the images below the break:

GIFS inside

Right after an attack, the Tenno sheaths with blades down instead of up, but immediately readjust it at the end of the animation, as if they were thinking “oops, right, it’s blade up…” after each and every single strike.

 

 

The reason I believe it’s an oversight from kinda-last minute changes is because the Tenno is almost sheathing it right when they do their katana idle animation. See below for sort-of better sheathing animation than above:

 

 

Even so, the second animation could use a few.The blade needs to be lined up with the orientation of the scabbard (since they’re holding their scabbard straight, while the sword is angled). Nothing that can't be fixed easily from what I see at least.

 

I’ve linked it before but you can still watch this video again if you want to see how they sheath the katana with the blade faced up:

(Side note: when you do a downward stab, you stab with blade sup as well, as shown in the counter technique at 1:53. Current ground stabbing finisher has blades downward).

 

And here’s another one in video game context: Mitsurugi (<3) from Soul Calibur:

http://youtu.be/q_Oi-4EM7ek?t=42s

(go to 0:42 for badass sheathing)

 

Since they’ve already gone their way to change it blades up, they should do it all the way. Below are some more knowledgeable Tenno in the arts of kenjutsu that gave their inputs on the matter before, which are still valid points in the current context:

As many have already mentioned the edge-down position is most commonly associated with the tachi (predecessor of the katana) and wearing the katana stuck into your obi (belt) edge-up didn't really come into fashion until after the end of the Warring States period (1600) when the warriors no longer wore armour as often.

Speaking as a practitioner of kenjutsu my personal preferrence is for edge-up, however, the sword can technically be handled pretty much in the same way regardless of fitting assuming the scabbard is loose enough to turn sideways and upside-down (which is done in many kata regardless of which school you practice).

Humbly...

 

As a practitioner of sword arts (my family has done it for generations) we have traditionally done it blade-up, as that is the samurai way for a variety of reasons.

1) The high draw as shown in the video requires the sword to be blade-up.
2) A blade facing upward indicates a time of war or battle. A downward facing blade as shown earlier in the thread means that you are peaceful and unprepared for battle.
3) An upward facing blade is incredibly important to the sheathing of a blade. When sheathing, the scabbard shifts to the side and the blunt end is run across the scabbard until the blade locks into place. From there you rotate the blade facing upward (facing it downward could cause injury at this stage).

-UpgradeInProgress

 

EDIT: New feedback from UpgradeInProgress about katana-usage. A big thank you for your insights and criticism (both to my own assumptions and DE's work).

 

Hello, Tenno, I'm back (with new info!)

 

After playing around in my dojo (thank goodness I have a key (also, not my Warframe Dojo)), and rolling with some Kendo guys (who kicked my a$$ with this draw time and time again since I always trained to defend from top draws), I found the downward draw has its advantages. It is very defensive and allows for lower strikes which the enemy may not be expecting.

 

I also asked my father (who was incredibly happy I asked, it was almost scary), and it turns out that the sword down draw is done in Kenjutsu (which is a lot of slicing) while sword up is Iaijutsu (which is a lot of stabbing attacks). Sheathing is done from the side, as mentioned before. There also happens to be a far less common horizontal draw (and it's a ton of fun)! If/when DE introduces more stances I hope these other draws are demonstrated. 

 

This aside, I've come to a conclusion: The blade must face up when sheathed while the draw may be from any direction (save blade facing you, which is outright suicidal). This means that while the draw is correct in the teaser video, the sheath needs to be turned to face down before it is drawn. 

 

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vThis is all just me being a picky swordsman. DE did an AWESOME job and the Katana is getting the attention it deserves.v

 

In addition, the katana cuts are rather odd. They have a very Iaijutsu style to it but the footwork is horrendous, so much so that I have to look above the waist when carrying my Nikana. Rather than flowing, balanced footwork, their balance is heavy to the right side, they lean when cutting (a HUGE no-no, lest you lose your appendages), and on top of that they make it a single-handed swing (which is NOT the case, unless drawing). The katana is a two-handed weapon regardless of style unless you use Daitoryuu (the style that uses the wakazashi). In any style, hips are the primary source of energy (the sword tip should be almost directly in front of your navel, granted, it needs to be quite a distance away.). Footwork is also more flowing (a lot more shuffling and sliding, particularly one-foot pivots). One does not simply keep their hand on their hip (sheath?) when swinging a katana. It takes hip movement, not arm strength. We're not fencers. 

 

Another thing: There should be a Kenjutsu style. That means turning the blade and doing uppercut draws, defensive draws, etc. It also means two-handed deliberate cuts (almost RESTING the blade before slicing). This would add variety to the playstyles. It would also give some long-overdue respect to the lower draw that I've changed my mind about (I am now attempting it myself, it's quite fun honestly).

 

Finally, the sheath needs fixing. It seems to be bonded to the player's left hand whenever he swings and it looks like he's using a sword of a different color. 

 

^This is all just me being a picky swordsman. DE did an AWESOME job and the Katana is getting the attention it deserves^.

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On the bright side, DE did a great job with feedback, and I hope they continue to improve upon it since the Katana is a pillar of the culture they based this game upon. 

 

Respectfully,

-UpgradeInProgress

 

 

Thank you for your time and for fixing most of the animations, but there’s still work to be done!

 

 

Previous discussion OP, for those interested:

After watching the latest U13 teaser, I have to post this as a PSA, so that DE can choose to make the changes sooner, if they want.

From what I see in the trailer, the katana is sheathed wrong. The blade is facing downward instead of upward, and the Tenno takes it out with the wrong hand posture as a result. Though it's true the tachi blade (predecessor of the katana) is wielded downward, the katana isn't. They also have different shapes, and what the Tenno's holding is much closer to a katana than a tachi (DE even refers to it as the "Tenno Katana" after all).

 

Quotes from the wiki explaining the changes from tachi (edge down) to katana (edge up):

The rise in popularity of katana by samurai is believed to have been due to the changing nature of close-combat warfare. The quicker draw of the sword was well suited to combat where victory depended heavily on fast response times.

 

The katana further facilitated this by being worn thrust through a belt-like sash (obi) with the sharpened edge facing up. Ideally, samurai could draw the sword and strike the enemy in a single motion. Previously, the curved tachi had been worn with the edge of the blade facing down and suspended from a belt.

If you want to be more accurate to the form of katana wielding, I would suggest looking at some references such as this video.

Or other video game characters even, such as Mitsurugi in Soulcalibur who's holding it more accurately.


I'm not looking for complete realism. That's besides the point. I'm suggesting this because DE obviously based it on existing arts and forms, just like many other media like Soulcalibur, so I think it's a good idea to make these changes.

It's great to get inspired and go crazy with an idea, but when its source is obvious, some appeal comes from being accurate to certain source elements, because it's also acknowledging all the history and wisdom that these traditional art encompass. Simply dismissing these can make the subject lose its appeal as it tries hard to be unique.

And I'll keep on being picky about this detail until it's fixed (if it isn't when it's released) because the Tenno Katana is the one weapon I'm looking forward to the most :V

Edited June 11, 2014 by Casardis

[Arunafeltz]

Having a blade sheathed behind your waist looks really cool though

[Skynin]

This is Tenno technique :S

Well, that's confusing a bit.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Skynin

[CrugerSoulek]

It's kinda funny. When I first saw the intro I was awe-struck, but I also couldn't help but think "nooo, you're gonna cut through your saya D:"

[Calayne]

Looks more like a tachi's sheathing position, huh?

At any rate, you're right that the katana's sheathing position is actually facing blade up! But I do think DE has something in mind in terms of attack style :o

[BrotherIcarus]

Well to me it look really wonky that way I know it is meant to be that way but personally I prefer the other way.

Edited March 28, 2014 by BrotherIcarus

[Mak_Gohae]

Future space ninja technique, not samurai style.

[Casardis]

Looks more like a tachi's sheathing position, huh?

 

Hmm I don't know about the tachi's sheathing position you're talking about. I only know of the traditional way, which is upward, and the Muso Shinden-ryuu, where the blade's outward, but horizontal, not downward.

 

EDIT: Oh, the weapon tachi. Derp. XD

 

 

Well to me it look really wonky that way I know it is meant to be that way but personally I prefer the other way.

 

That's what I thought at first but it isn't. There's a reason it's facing that way and it's so the drawing technique's more effective for that purpose.

 

For example, you'll be much slower to unsheath and hold your blade with two hands because the handle would be going upward instead of downward for your second hand to reach it. This also means that blocking will be less effective unless your sword swing is good enough (and clashing sword IRL isn't like in anime or fiction either).

 

Even then, with the way your elbow will be facing outward to the side instead of inward to the bottom gives you a less effective balance and grip altogether. That's some reasons why it makes more sense for the blade to be facing outward and to sheath it that way.

 

The teaser itself showed a flaw in it: Excalibur had to twist his wrist in order to get the blade facing in the right direction and for him to grab it with his second hand. If he was unsheathing the right way, it would be one single fluid movement going from unsheathing to a downward slash, as shown in the Iaijutsu video I've linked.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Casardis

[vasRayya]

Future space ninja technique, not samurai style.

[OnyxAlchemyst]

Wearing the katana blade-down wasn't that uncommon in older times. There's a lot of ancient Japanese illustrations portraying samurai wearing swords blade-down, even sideways across the small of the back.

 

 

So wearing the sword in that way isn't necessarily inaccurate.

[Skynin]

Future space ninja technique, not samurai style.

Pretty much. I guess there is a reason for that A_A

UPD: Above my post!

Edited March 28, 2014 by Skynin

[derclaw]

Puny earthlings and their fragile swords.

[Charismo]

is this real life

[Athros]

Looks more like a tachi's sheathing position, huh?

 

Hmm I don't know about the tachi's sheathing position you're talking about. I only know of the traditional way, which is upward, and the Muso Shinden-ryuu, where the blade's outward, but horizontal, not downward.

 

Tachi? You mean Katana's predecessor? If I'm not mistaken, yes, Tachi's sheathing is different from Katana, which is the blade is downward rather than Katana's upward.

[SolidSp33d]

And then everyone remembers.

Stance change mods

 

;3

 

In all seriousness, if they goofed, they should really go tweak it.

I'd image all the animations for it need a bit a second pass.

Edited March 28, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Casardis]

Wearing the katana blade-down wasn't that uncommon in older times. There's a lot of ancient Japanese illustrations portraying samurai wearing swords blade-down, even sideways across the small of the back.

 

So wearing the sword in that way isn't necessarily inaccurate.

 

EDIT: I just researched a bit thanks to Calayne, and it seems the weapon shown on your pictures is the Tachi, not the Katana. Tachi are usually facing downward. Tachi preceeds Katana, so most of the old pictures showing samurai, they are usually holding this weapon instead (which is why they are facing downward).

 

In fact, the very picture you took is shown in the Katana wiki article, and specifically indicates it as a Tachi.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Casardis

[rapt0rman]

Isn't the downward facing blade specifically for the quick-draw-shash-sheath technique? (no idea what its called)

Edited March 28, 2014 by rapt0rman

[Casardis]

Isn't the downward facing blade specifically for the quick-draw-shash-sheath technique?

 

Not always. Most of the time it's horizontal. If it's faced downward with the bent knee position the quick draw often involves, you will break your sword by slashing the ground.

 

So it's usually a diagonal angle or horizontal angle, like the Shinden-ryuu drawing style.

[rapt0rman]

Not always. Most of the time it's horizontal. If it's faced downward with the bent knee position the quick draw often involves, you will break your sword by slashing the ground.

 

So it's usually a diagonal angle or horizontal angle, like the Shinden-ryuu drawing style.

Makes sense.

[ntyd1s]

Wearing the katana blade-down wasn't that uncommon in older times. There's a lot of ancient Japanese illustrations portraying samurai wearing swords blade-down, even sideways across the small of the back.

 

 

So wearing the sword in that way isn't necessarily inaccurate.

 

But that's against the law of physics. When you tie curve object in the mid section and let it hang.

[Erelas]

I upvoted this, it's definitely worth DE's consideration.  I was fiddling with a katana and realized blade down would be hard to use right away, takes a bit more movement and is more offensive a start, with a katana you want a fast action and defensive start most of the time.  So, if they changed the sheathing to blade up he'd pull it out in a smoother and already alert/defensive position.  Good catch either way.

[Archistopheles]

But that's against the law of physics. When you tie curve object in the mid section and let it hang.

 

It's obviously braced correctly.

 

Japanese fighters weren't wizards like they are in anime.

[RedPrimed]

This is Tenno technique :S

Well, that's confusing a bit.

yes more dmc

[Shin]

I was so happy to see that Katana and its sheath. If they add IAI animations too i shall empty my wallet but only if they make it right.

 

I was waiting for them for a loooooong time.

[Casardis]

I was so happy to see that Katana and its sheath. If they add IAI animations too i shall empty my wallet but only if they make it right.

I was waiting for them for a loooooong time.

I don't think they would pass the opportunity to use techniques based on things usually proper to the katana styles and make it over the top. Many have done that and it's always cool.

In fact, since certain combos can be done with "pauses", I'm sure there will be certain combo chains/stances that involves more over-the-top quickdraw techniques (because RL quickdraw isn't like in video game and anime XD)

 

yes more dmc

 

Yeah, even the over-the-topness of Vergil (DMC3 and DmC) still held the blade as it's commonly known as "correct", with some sheathing attacks having him hold it sideways/diagonally for quickdraws.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Casardis