Why Use Melee When I Can Just One Hit Them With My 6 Forma Op Gun?

[notionphil]

He's arguing that if melee is an effective way to kill and people find it fun, it doesn't necessarily matter if guns are more effective.  To a certain degree, he's right.  It's no different than using a gun you particularly enjoy on some content.  It might be a weaker gun than the heavy hitter you bust out for endless modes, but it gets the job done.

 

Right that's the actual content - but the subtext is, he seems to be arguing against melee being made more effective.

 

Which is why I'm asking him to clarify.

[Skarmax]

You watched the stream? Now you will be able to reflect.... EVERY.... BULLET.... BACK .... AT.... ENEMIES!!!! Melee 2.0 will be easy mode :P

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

Scott said he'd been able to solo Pluto with a Skana.

 

...A SKANA....

 

I'll let that sink in for a bit...

You'd be surprised what you can do with a well modded Skana right now if you take advantage of stealth/alert bonuses. It is my preferred method of taking out Heavy Gunners in T3s on my rank 0.

[PenutReaper]

Don't get me wrong, I love the Skana still.

 

I don't have one any more, and probably won't get another. I just find it hard to put away the Dakra.

 

I've had a lot of fun with melee in this game already, the block mods let you do some fun stuff, so I think I have an idea of how effective blocking in 2.0 will be.

[Axterix13]

Right that's the actual content - but the subtext is, he seems to be arguing against melee being made more effective.

 

Which is why I'm asking him to clarify.

I don't think he's arguing against that.  Well, other than that if it is too effective, it would invalidate the point to having a combo system.

 

More that melee doesn't need to be as effective as a super-buffed gun to be effective and fun.  Or another way of looking at it: just because guns are overpowered (and they can be, thanks to how the modding system and catalysts work) doesn't mean melee should be as well.

 

To a certain degree, I think he does have a point.  I've been meleeing a bit with my Volt of late, including against some 35-38 Grineer, and it went pretty well, other than against Grineer heavies.  But that's with Volt, using an Orthos Prime.  Still, if melee 2.0 increases the effectiveness of melee overall, that could bode well for other weapons.  Though we'll have to see what happens when melee 2.0 gets put in our hands (as it will probably be more effective than the demo we saw).

 

Which isn't to say melee doesn't have issues, and I'm not too sure how well Melee 2.0 will help with those.  The time to close on a target seems like it will still be a big factor that favors ranged combat.  My Volt has Speed, but what does Frost have?  We also saw him get into trouble against multiple Grineer heavies.  When you can't kill quickly and you have to expose yourself to do damage, easy to get in trouble that way.  With ranged, easier to find cover that greatly reduces incoming fire, easier to break from combat to recharge shields, and easier to isolate your opponents and fight less of them at a time.

 

To be honest though, the biggest thing I'm worried about with Melee 2.0 is the hit counter multiplier combined with Survival and Trinity's Blessing.

[kadu864]

Right that's the actual content - but the subtext is, he seems to be arguing against melee being made more effective.

 

Which is why I'm asking him to clarify.

I'm in no way arguing against them being made more effective if that makes it more clear a buff would not hurt. I was just saying that there is way too many people crying in this forum about a system that we have yet to see. The "subtext", as you put it,  is really the number 3 of my original post. If people want to one hit enemies with their melee weapon just like they do with their guns, then I think there is really no point in having combos. (i guess you can keep the hit counter up by one hitting multiple enemies but that it is not the same as fully executing you stance combos).

 

 

This guy here was actually the one i got the quote from another thread( he wrote the quote in my original post ):

 

Allow me to now find you and kill your fun while chasing you around and wielding a Boltor Prime.

 

You'd probably cry a river about my min/maxing and how you should be able to /kick me just for playing by you.

 

 

Lets use real life arguments to justify videogame logic!  That'll solve the problem, right?

 

Genius...we're playing space ninjas that defy almost all known laws of physics.  Go back to Call of Duty and cry about how it isn't realistic enough.

 

The argument that we should have our our melee weapons have the same TTK of lets say a 5 forma soma or boltor prime or penta because other people will kill our targets before we get to them makes some sense BUT, think about this:

 

If your melee weapon is not GOD level,  you will beautifully execute your combos against multiple enemies and get your hit counter up so you can do more and more damage and have lots of fun while doing so.(if you are into it of course) Unfortunately yes some people might kill some of your targets before you do.

 

However, if we ask the Devs to make our melee weapons just as stupidly strong as our OP guns are, we will be killing enemies in one hit and indeed giving less chances of other teammates to steal our kills, BUT we will be the ones killing our own fun. "Hey look at that Heavy Gunner, im going to try my new awesome combo on him. Bam. Oh S#&$ i just killed him with the first hit, I guess I cant really use my full length combos on anyone that is not at least lvl 50+."

[kadu864]

I don't think he's arguing against that.  Well, other than that if it is too effective, it would invalidate the point to having a combo system.

 

More that melee doesn't need to be as effective as a super-buffed gun to be effective and fun.  Or another way of looking at it: just because guns are overpowered (and they can be, thanks to how the modding system and catalysts work) doesn't mean melee should be as well.

 

To a certain degree, I think he does have a point.  I've been meleeing a bit with my Volt of late, including against some 35-38 Grineer, and it went pretty well, other than against Grineer heavies.  But that's with Volt, using an Orthos Prime.  Still, if melee 2.0 increases the effectiveness of melee overall, that could bode well for other weapons.  Though we'll have to see what happens when melee 2.0 gets put in our hands (as it will probably be more effective than the demo we saw).

 

Which isn't to say melee doesn't have issues, and I'm not too sure how well Melee 2.0 will help with those.  The time to close on a target seems like it will still be a big factor that favors ranged combat.  My Volt has Speed, but what does Frost have?  We also saw him get into trouble against multiple Grineer heavies.  When you can't kill quickly and you have to expose yourself to do damage, easy to get in trouble that way.  With ranged, easier to find cover that greatly reduces incoming fire, easier to break from combat to recharge shields, and easier to isolate your opponents and fight less of them at a time.

 

To be honest though, the biggest thing I'm worried about with Melee 2.0 is the hit counter multiplier combined with Survival and Trinity's Blessing.

+1

[ExplodingStars]

For fun...

 

and the luls

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'm in no way arguing against them being made more effective if that makes it more clear a buff would not hurt. I was just saying that there is way too many people crying in this forum about a system that we have yet to see. The "subtext", as you put it,  is really the number 3 of my original post. If people want to one hit enemies with their melee weapon just like they do with their guns, then I think there is really no point in having combos. (i guess you can keep the hit counter up by one hitting multiple enemies but that it is not the same as fully executing you stance combos).

 

 

This guy here was actually the one i got the quote from another thread( he wrote the quote in my original post ):

 

 

The argument that we should have our our melee weapons have the same TTK of lets say a 5 forma soma or boltor prime or penta because other people will kill our targets before we get to them makes some sense BUT, think about this:

 

If your melee weapon is not GOD level,  you will beautifully execute your combos against multiple enemies and get your hit counter up so you can do more and more damage and have lots of fun while doing so.(if you are into it of course) Unfortunately yes some people might kill some of your targets before you do.

 

However, if we ask the Devs to make our melee weapons just as stupidly strong as our OP guns are, we will be killing enemies in one hit and indeed giving less chances of other teammates to steal our kills, BUT we will be the ones killing our own fun. "Hey look at that Heavy Gunner, im going to try my new awesome combo on him. Bam. Oh S#&$ i just killed him with the first hit, I guess I cant really use my full length combos on anyone that is not at least lvl 50+."

Who's to say the fix to melee has to be numerical.  Just make it good enough to be super fun (which by the videos I'm guessing it will be) and then give it some utility (like regening energy when not channeling) and make some QoL changes..  A list I put together elsewhere was...

 

 

So just to compile a list...

 

-melee regens energy

-melee hits harder (if needed, we'll see upon implementation)

-all CC gets downgraded one "tier" when melee is equipped (ragdoll->knockdown->stagger->none)

-all targeted CC can be blocked by a well-timed block

-all AoE CC can be avoided by if nothing else sliding in the direction of the AoE which will stop your movement, but apply no CC.

-moving faster reduces enemy accuracy (so coptering and slide-dashing should make it very difficult to track you).  While you are in the air, enemies have something like 60% reduction in accuracy

-enemies shouldn't automagically know where you are at all times.

-dodge rolls make you much harder to hit and/or reduce incoming damage and/or reduce incoming CC

-being in close proximity to enemy units reduces the accuracy of enemies towards you for fear of hurting their friend (does not apply to Corpus when you're near MOAs)

 

Edited April 7, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[notionphil]

I'm in no way arguing against them being made more effective if that makes it more clear a buff would not hurt. I was just saying that there is way too many people crying in this forum about a system that we have yet to see. The "subtext", as you put it,  is really the number 3 of my original post. If people want to one hit enemies with their melee weapon just like they do with their guns, then I think there is really no point in having combos. (i guess you can keep the hit counter up by one hitting multiple enemies but that it is not the same as fully executing you stance combos).

 

Please don't confuse constructive critique with crying.

 

No matter how beautiful/satisfying melee is, it will always be less effective at quickly killing enemies than your teammates with Somas/Pentas/MPrimes. That is not a cry. It's a matter of fact statement.

 

However, that is OK. Melee doesn't have to be the best at quickly killing enemies. It can be the best at killing single enemies. Or have other benefits. Reflecting bullets is a perfect example of this.

 

-enemy CC's could stagger instead of knock you down when you have melee equipped

-completing a combo could restore energy

-enemies could have difficulty targeting you when you're in a combo, so you'd take less damage

 

etc, etc.

 

I don't disagree that melee will be enjoyable as is, but your post sounds like a rebuke of melee 2.0 critiques, instead of an endorsement of how great melee could be. While we'll all learn more once it drops, anything that makes it more viable compared to one-shot powers and guns is probably a good thing.

[Oishii]

Well melee doesn't take any ammo, I know that was an issue for me back when I didn't have an potatoed gun or if I am doing endless missions sometimes. Also, I sort of like the idea if guns still stay better as its realistic, but as long as melee is viable and not suicidal if you are not playing trinity sounds cool to me.

[Xylia]

Can't remember the last time I blocked a shot with my omgwtfbbq gun...

 

Looks like pulling your sword out is the answer to the "OMG HITSCAN ENEMIES EVERYWHERE!"

 

Or at least, I hope so.

[kadu864]

Who's to say the fix to melee has to be numerical.  Just make it good enough to be super fun (which by the videos I'm guessing it will be) and then give it some utility (like regening energy when not channeling) and make some QoL changes..  A list I put together elsewhere was...

 

 

Please don't confuse constructive critique with crying.

 

No matter how beautiful/satisfying melee is, it will always be less effective at quickly killing enemies than your teammates with Somas/Pentas/MPrimes. That is not a cry. It's a matter of fact statement.

 

However, that is OK. Melee doesn't have to be the best at quickly killing enemies. It can be the best at killing single enemies. Or have other benefits. Reflecting bullets is a perfect example of this.

 

-enemy CC's could stagger instead of knock you down when you have melee equipped

-completing a combo could restore energy

-enemies could have difficulty targeting you when you're in a combo, so you'd take less damage

 

etc, etc.

 

I don't disagree that melee will be enjoyable as is, but your post sounds like a rebuke of melee 2.0 critiques, instead of an endorsement of how great melee could be. While we'll all learn more once it drops, anything that makes it more viable compared to one-shot powers and guns is probably a good thing.

 

oh this post was sincerely made because of the people crying about TTK of melee weapons not being as good as their teammates guns.

 

I totally agree with both of ya'll and i have indeed seen good feedback posts with ideas like the ones you mentioned about instead of just giving more damage to melee, make it so it has some type of utility.

 

The one about regenerating energy prolly was my favorite one.

First because it would make using the channeling moves self sufficient(given the right builds of course) and it could be a way for you to gather that last amount of energy that you need to cast your frame's skill which would make taking out your melee weapon very appealing.

 

And in general, just to make it clear, im super excited about the melee 2.0 coming out. Even if the only change is that now we have combos and everything else stayed the same, that would already be more than we had before and thus be plenty awesome for me. If they make melee even more appealing by giving it some good utility then that would be Super Awesome!

[Bazools]

Anything is better than what we have now.

 

 

The whole point of melee 2.0 was to make it viable not to replace ranged combat 

 

Both of these guys are right!

[AuroraSonicBoom]

You watched the stream? Now you will be able to reflect.... EVERY.... BULLET.... BACK .... AT.... ENEMIES!!!! Melee 2.0 will be easy mode :P

 

You can do that now, only difference is that it won't drain your shield. You'll still need to sacrifice a slot for reflection though, which nobody in their right mind would do with options like Iron Skin and Blessing around.

[artemis9]

Well I agree the point of gaming, might just be, maybe just a little, to have fun. Not max out builds so much that there is no point in playing the game anymore, at least, that's just my opinion

[XenosInfinity]

Melee allows you to parry bullets.

 

Zero damage taken.

[Makemap]

Why the complain about melee combo, when we should be complaining about Grineer Heavies undodgable slamfest. If DE takes away our OP weapons, Grineer will break the game even more making it impossible to kill high level heavies.

[NuLycan]

Scott said he'd been able to solo Pluto with a Skana.

 

...A SKANA....

 

I'll let that sink in for a bit...

While I understand what you're saying, I have little faith that Scott did it with just the skana and nothing else, except maybe an excalibur blinding every ten seconds or loki.

 

He didn't look like the hottest player during the devstream.

Edited April 8, 2014 by NuLycan

[Nagisawa]

Scott said he'd been able to solo Pluto with a Skana.

 

...A SKANA....

 

I'll let that sink in for a bit...

I'll believe it when I see it.

[neKroMancer]

 I think there are a few things that DE can make us feel like using melee.

 

1. What if 'rare' combo mod allow you to regenerate energy, health or shield with each hit? That will make a lot of impact on how you mod and how you play the game, allowing player to leave the safe bosom of Trinity and venture forth into the void.

 

2. What if there is enemy that can shrug off bullet damage and you have to destroy its armor before you can shoot?

 

3. Range DR enemies.

 

Something like that.

[fatpig84]

well imagine your using a ogris, and a disruptor ancient is charging you. you either shoot and die or pull out your melee wep and stun-lock him to death. (then t-bag his decaying corpse)

 

Eh that is a biased comparison.

Why not this ?

 

Well imagine your using a Ogris, and a toxic ancient is charging you. you either shoot and die, or pull your melee weapon and smell his poop and kiss the floor in a second because he is level 70.... Or you back peddle and use your Brakk/Marelok/Despair etc.

 

 

And this is coming from a guy who mains Loki and Excal, frames which have pretty much the best melee buff skills.

Edited April 8, 2014 by fatpig84

[Xylia]

Eh that is a biased comparison.

Why not this ?

 

Well imagine your using a Ogris, and a toxic ancient is charging you. you either shoot and die, or pull your melee weapon and smell his poop and kiss the floor in a second because he is level 70.... Or you back peddle and use your Brakk/Marelok/Despair etc.

 

 

And this is coming from a guy who mains Loki and Excal, frames which have pretty much the best melee buff skills.

 

Where exactly are you fighting Lv70 toxic ancients?

 

You talking about long Survivals? Those are kinda optional anyways, given the keys really aren't that hard to make.

 

Can't base Melee 2.0 on optional content with silly level numbers the devteam never really intended the game to be balanced around anyways. Anything 50+ is insanely overpowered, because you're really not meant to be in a survival for an hour or somecrap.

[DUSTCLOUD]

Melee 2.0 vs Lech Kril, FIGHT

[fatpig84]

Where exactly are you fighting Lv70 toxic ancients?

 

You talking about long Survivals? Those are kinda optional anyways, given the keys really aren't that hard to make.

 

Can't base Melee 2.0 on optional content with silly level numbers the devteam never really intended the game to be balanced around anyways. Anything 50+ is insanely overpowered, because you're really not meant to be in a survival for an hour or somecrap.

 

That is just an example.

 

It is the same if you are facing a level 30 ancient in a Loki, hell or any frame.

You only have 225 health, a single wiff of their poop can nearly take off 30% to 40% of your hp. 

 

Most frames at maxed are 225 or 300 health.

Even your vaunted Rhino. 

 

The point still stands, melee 2.0 will make melee more usable, if situations permit.

Even in the disruptor scenario, I know well enough if that once a disruptor starts his dash melee forward, you cannot stun lock him. You have to dodge or back peddle and hose him down instead of going up to the face.

 

 

There is no such thing in Warframe as , "Hurr I am a melee class so I has immense damage reduction or ability to aggro etc".

Or passive buffs like Diablo 3 Barbarians and Monks who have immense armor and dodge bonus.

 

If you can do that in Warframe, you will do a lot better with guns still since you don't exactly lose anything.  

You have the same exact protection in armor and shields while having the luxury to shoot at 50 meters.

Edited April 8, 2014 by fatpig84