June 13Th: Community Hot Topics!

[Cleesus]

Guys, I'm just curious...and skeptical...if the token system is basically another form of currency that people have to earn, how would that make getting Prime parts or BPs or anything any bit faster?

 

For instance, if you get 10 Void Tokens (VT) every T3 Capture mission, and it takes 500 VT just to get a Boltor Prime BP, that's 50 T3 Captures...and just the BP.  I'm not saying this would be the price given, but...how does the Token system solve the grind issue?  If DE sets the VT price too high for different parts, people will just complain about that, too.  It seems more like a band-aid for the actual problem, rather than solving the problem, itself.  Unless I'm wrong about how this Token system is supposed to work.

 

And, sure, the RNG system doesn't make getting a Boltor Prime BP a 100% guarantee even with 50 T3/T4 MD runs, but given the statistics, there's a good chance someone else has, and that they're looking to trade or sell it.

 

If the problem is grinding, then the solution has to involve something outside of grinding.  If people just want VT just to feel like they're actually working/grinding towards something...then it might actually be more 'evil' of DE to do so; they'd be reinforcing the excessive grinding, rather than moving from it.

 

On another topic...

 

I totally agree that the newbie experience needs some work.  Players are definitely not prepared to face Vor as early as they do, and as a result are stuck grinding early missions.  I'm sure I missed it, but does anyone know if DE addressed how they're going to help new players get a better start than they've got, now?  Player ships and changing progression is one thing, but unless you've got the equipment and mods, you're stuck.  I'm almost certain that new players see that as a terrible first impression.

i think they are trying to solve the rng issues with tokens not the endless grind issues.

[Taranis49]

Guys, I'm just curious...and skeptical...if the token system is basically another form of currency that people have to earn, how would that make getting Prime parts or BPs or anything any bit faster? *snipped for brevity*

 

It's not about making it faster; it's about ensuring there's a release valve on the RNG by allowing the player to make actual, quantifiable progress towards a given goal. It's why I didn't mind having to run 100 missions during the Gradivus event, because I knew I was actually making progress. The current system doesn't do that, it only rewards blind dumb luck, difficult or easy don't even enter into the equation - it takes just as much effort to pull the lever on a slot machine regardless of whether it pays out or not, and it's not particularly satisfying.

 

Then, of course, there's the oft-talked about issue of the dilution of the Void tables, which gets worse every single update. When the Void was first released in U8, there were a total of three Primes in it effectively spread across six missions (T1/2/3 Exterminate/Raid), there's now over 20 Prime weapons/frames spread across about 20 missions... even with the addition of T4.

 

The fact a token system could provide a bit more freedom in how you obtain an item doesn't hurt either. As noted by Xylia, it's not so much that you have to run X number of missions to get a part you want that's the problem, it's the fact that you have to run the Exact. Same. Mission. It's monotonous - variety is the spice of life, and all that.

[Aggh]

2. Changes were recently made based on feedback (look at the drop table rotations) and changes continue to be made, as I noted in my original post. 

 

Any chance you could get some info on this:

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/287pi0/i_think_the_t4_interception_loot_repeating_bug/

 

Also, the prime gear drop thread is missing the rotation B rewards for T I survival.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Aggh

[n00b_m0m0]

Not to be a,party pooper but,ever since the Loki prime and void vor update came out,my game always crashes (internal error encountered) whenever i play through the void,no matter what tower,I've already submitted several reports after the crash and put warframe on lowest settings,yet this still persists,i'm afraid to host void missions anymore as i ruin the fun for all the other tenno i'v hosted for.Help?

[CarrotSalad]

Guys, I'm just curious...and skeptical...if the token system is basically another form of currency that people have to earn, how would that make getting Prime parts or BPs or anything any bit faster?

 

For instance, if you get 10 Void Tokens (VT) every T3 Capture mission, and it takes 500 VT just to get a Boltor Prime BP, that's 50 T3 Captures...and just the BP.  I'm not saying this would be the price given, but...how does the Token system solve the grind issue?  If DE sets the VT price too high for different parts, people will just complain about that, too.  It seems more like a band-aid for the actual problem, rather than solving the problem, itself.  Unless I'm wrong about how this Token system is supposed to work.

 

And, sure, the RNG system doesn't make getting a Boltor Prime BP a 100% guarantee even with 50 T3/T4 MD runs, but given the statistics, there's a good chance someone else has, and that they're looking to trade or sell it.

 

If the problem is grinding, then the solution has to involve something outside of grinding.  If people just want VT just to feel like they're actually working/grinding towards something...then it might actually be more 'evil' of DE to do so; they'd be reinforcing the excessive grinding, rather than moving from it.

This is why i say make tokens a "daily" quest reward that you can only claim once a day as MMOrpg's do. People who are patient dont have to grind. They can pace thier gameplay and missions over the course of months. With a sense of progression and purpose.

 

Ill mention blade and souls token system to try and paint how it works.

The 4 hardest dungeons ingame have a quest everyday that rewards a token to players who clear the dungeon Max tokens u can get from each dungeon in 1 day is 1 so youll get 4 tokens if you clear all 4 dungeons.

 

You need 200 tokens for a pirate weapon (its a weapon on progression towards endgame gears). The weapon drops from the last boss inside those 4 dungeons but its a low chance.

Now I can save up 200 tokens which will take atleast 50 days tfor that weapon doing the dungeon once everyday at a nice pace enjoying a variety of gameplay mechanics without risking burnout. Or if i get the weapon or acquire it early I can use 30 of those tokens for a necklace or earring or ring or entry tickets upgrade and craft materials or i can stop running those daily quests altogether and go back to focusing on those Missions i enjoy playing most of all.

 

There was 1 mmorpg i played where the daily token quests were totally random sometimes it would be completing the hardest dungeons while other times it was as simple as casting a skill or buying/crafting an item from an NPC. I would fall inlove with warframe if they added a daily quest that everyday was different.

 

It would give DE a way to encourage players into playing missions that are unpopular but not forcing players into running those missions nonstop. Just like the potatos and reactors on Alerts do.

 

BTW token systems cannot be allowed to be mixed with trading. All tokens and items from the token shop must be made account binding.

Edited June 17, 2014 by CarrotSalad

[Chacalblack]

Thanks DE...  The Loki prime is amazing...

[SilentMobius]

The token system has been mentioned many times before. It just adds a new form of currency, but there has been a lot of demand for it. We had some info on it before. I'll try to dig it up. 

 

Can I just say that a pure "Token system" is not the only solution.

 

Firstly let me make some points:

 

1. I understand the favour towards random drops: A random gambling system has been proven to retain customers time and time again, but it is rarely a _popular_ system.

 

2. The problem with the Void is _never_ going to be solved by only adjusting drop rates. The only drop rate that would mitigate the _other_ problems with the Void (The feel of Grind) would result in a trivially high acquisition rate and many getting what they want with minimal effort. Which you don't want, obviously.

 

Let me make a specific example here: I currently want a Lex prime Barrel, so, currently, I need to run Tower III Survival or Capture. If I spend my weekend running... 10 combined successful Void mission and don't get my drop (Which is highly likely) What have I achieved? What progress have I made toward my goad due to my time and effort...

 

Nothing and None!

 

_That_ is the problem. "Grind" is simply the feeling of "minimal progress" this can be due to a currency-type system with over-inflated prices or a pure RNG system with a low chance of success. The secret is to make sure the the player makes _something_ that resembles progress.

 

Currently as soon as you have 80% of what currently exists in the void (Due to luck of simply time playing), progress becomes interminably slow.

 

There are a lot of possible solutions to this. here is mine:

 

1. Allow X lower rarity parts of the _same item_ + Y other prime parts to be converted into a higher rarity part (This way you can't "stock up" to instantly claim a new item but all old prim parts can have value to your current progress target)

2. Try and keep all the parts for a given item in the same mission. this makes more sense from a story perspective. But also it means that you can keep working towards a specific goal, without spending a lot of time acquiring things that are useless to you.

3. Every few weeks shuffle the items (all parts) to keep people playing the different missions. ("Coms chatter indicated that Lex Prime manufacturing systems have been found in the Storage Systems in defendable Cryo Pods" etc)

4. Give people more than one reward per mission. A random "lesser" and a random "greater" To mitigate the feeling of wasted time when you don't get the "greater" drop you wanted

 

This way _any_ prime drop is valuable, duplicated parts of the Prime you want are even _more_ useful. There are no "tokens" that are hoardable and the player still has to go out an player a lot to get the Prime they desire after it comes out. However there is now a hard-cap on the number of missions you are expected to run and every mission makes _some_ progress.

[Anzuul]

Still waiting for Primed Chamber to be added again.. 

Just ridiculous how expensive they are.

 

I'll never forget these words: "Ah, we did not say the Primed Chamber mod is Exclusive to the Drone weekend event, it was just the first time it was introduced. Sorry for the confusion there! I imagine it will appear again in future events."

Edited June 17, 2014 by Anzuul

[S.T.M.P.D]

How to fix the Void:

 

Step 1: Add Rescue, Sabotage, all the other missions.

Step 2: Don't rip corrupted from other factions. Void is a very visited place; give them their own enemies and bosses, let them evolve as a whole.

Step 3: Equalize the probability, Mr. Spock!

 

How to fix the newbie experience.

Step 1: Vor's Prize. Good work.

Step 2: Buff the Lato like there's no tomorrow.

Step 3: Explain everything to the new player when they go to the arsenal for the first time.

 

You're welcome.

 

Also, why so much hate? Why does everyone have to scream and shout at DE? Are they the scapegoats for all our problems?

 

When I get a bad grade on a test, now I'll say "Void Dilution made me do it!" and it'll be completely legit.

Edited June 17, 2014 by S.T.M.P.D

[Nighttide77]

Soooo....what I gather from everyone's explanation of the token system is that they just want to feel like they are earning something...  Even if they aren't actually getting anywhere anytime soon, they still want to have those digits to feel some sort of accomplishment...is that accurate?

 

If that's the case, then my advice to DE would be to implement something like that.  Players will probably not earn the components they are looking for any faster with tokens than they would with the RNG system, so no business lost.  At the same time, the game is a service, and if the players want a certain feature that would make them happy, it would be in DE's interests to serve and meet those desires (this includes a Chainsaw primary weapon, hint hint).

 

No one seemed to have addressed my advice about trading, though.  I understand there are single players who have terrible Internet, and that's one thing...and there are introverts who despise the idea of having to negotiate with other human beings (or cats, if there are cats playing WF...since cats can be ninjas).  However, as it stands, it is very possible for most anyone to get the components they are looking for by going on Trade chat.  Either run some missions and get some valuable stuff to trade, invest some money towards the devs for plat so they can keep working, or trade something valuable for plat and then buy that needed part for earned plat.  This has been working for me in many instances.  Is there some flaw in this advice that makes it invalid?

 

----on the newbie experience----

 

Another idea came to mind that might be fairly simple.  Give newbies a base-level Serration, Hornet Strike, and Pressure Point, as well as base-level mods of each elemental damage for the rifle, pistol, and melee.  This will help buff the new player without altering weapons.  As well, it can help show that there is a little more depth to the game in terms of damage types and effects.  I haven't thought this idea through too much, though, so if anyone can point out any flaws in this idea, I'd appreciate it.

 

There definitely needs to be more of a tutorial for the user interfaces, though.  Hopefully that will be coming up in U14.

[DaftMeat]

Shock Eximus need rework

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/247138-shock-eximus-spawning-behind-closed-doors-directly-behind-players-should-not-happen

[Amazerath]

No one seemed to have addressed my advice about trading, though.  I understand there are single players who have terrible Internet, and that's one thing...and there are introverts who despise the idea of having to negotiate with other human beings (or cats, if there are cats playing WF...since cats can be ninjas).  However, as it stands, it is very possible for most anyone to get the components they are looking for by going on Trade chat.  Either run some missions and get some valuable stuff to trade, invest some money towards the devs for plat so they can keep working, or trade something valuable for plat and then buy that needed part for earned plat.  This has been working for me in many instances.  Is there some flaw in this advice that makes it invalid?

 

As an advice there's nothing bad about it, because it's just an advice. But as a solution I would say it is invalid because it is not a real fix for what causes this whole situation. It's just a way to bypass it. That "most anyone" part is also a big problem in my opinion. If it doesn't work for all players then I think it cannot be considered a solution. But I do consider it to be valid advice.

 

The way I see it, the best reason to use a token system is because a token system rewards you for playing the game. You are always making progress every time you log in to play. So you always log off feeling like you accomplished something. With RNG you can get rewarded, but you can also get punished (through frustration). And more often then not you end up getting punished.

 

Another thing that's important to point out is that there is no such thing as "THE token system". DE can pretty much conjure up whatever kind of token system they want. They can make a token system that helps the players without causing them any real problems. So as far as I can see, there's basically zero reasons not to create at least some kind of token system for the game. Anything that makes the grinding feel more like a personal quest and less like a chore.

[Nighttide77]

Thanks for responding, Amazerath.

 

Just to clarify, I said "most anyone" because those whom cannot trade or have some sort of debilitating personality condition that keeps them from working with others would not be able to use the trade system.  I'm not sure who else cannot use the trade system and make it work for them.  If players are too lazy or don't want to learn how to barter (which is a real-life skill), then...it feels like it's their loss for not taking advantage of the opportunities.

 

I think you validated what I was suspecting: that there is a large group of players who want to feel like they are always being rewarded or working towards something.  I'm not a part of that group, so I guess that's why I've been asking individuals such as yourself for insight into this perspective.  Sociology does interest me.

 

For me, I enjoy the random, low chance of getting something valuable.  It feels like winning a lottery and if I don't get something great, I don't fret over it.  I'm guessing some people are hurt a lot by getting items of lesser value.  Sometimes, for me, getting a lesser value item makes getting the more valuable stuff that much sweeter.

 

It really seems like it's up to DE as to whether or not they want to appease the crowd of people who want to feel accomplished and continually rewarded.  However...if anyone thinks they should always be rewarded, or needs to feel some sort of accomplishment, it might be time to look elsewhere outside of video games for that.  Other games might spoil people like that, but that doesn't contribute to growing passed the present culture of "entitlement."

[Amazerath]

Just to clarify, I said "most anyone" because those whom cannot trade or have some sort of debilitating personality condition that keeps them from working with others would not be able to use the trade system.  I'm not sure who else cannot use the trade system and make it work for them.  If players are too lazy or don't want to learn how to barter (which is a real-life skill), then...it feels like it's their loss for not taking advantage of the opportunities.

 

I'm not saying people should get items for free simply because they feel like they should. I'm saying that as it stands, RNG turns an experience that could be fun into an experience that is mostly frustrating. Grinding is always an effort. But whether grinding is fun or boring depends on how fair the whole system is. Also, if people don't like to learn new things that's their choice, not mine.

 

 

I think you validated what I was suspecting: that there is a large group of players who want to feel like they are always being rewarded or working towards something.  I'm not a part of that group, so I guess that's why I've been asking individuals such as yourself for insight into this perspective.  Sociology does interest me.

 

I most definitely did not validate anything of the sort, as I do not speak for a large group of players. I speak for myself. And the same applies to everyone else posting here.

 

 

For me, I enjoy the random, low chance of getting something valuable.  It feels like winning a lottery and if I don't get something great, I don't fret over it.  I'm guessing some people are hurt a lot by getting items of lesser value.  Sometimes, for me, getting a lesser value item makes getting the more valuable stuff that much sweeter.

 

I also enjoy that. I played a lot of games that rely on RNG, such as Diablo, Borderlands and Path of Exile. But there are good types of RNG and bad types of RNG. I believe that the RNG on Warframe could use some improvements to encourage players into putting some effort into acquiring new stuff. I never said I support removing RNG from the game entirely. That is DE's decision to make. I merely said that a token system could seriously help with the current RNG situation and add even more reasons for the players to keep playing the game (which benefits DE and the players).

 

 

It really seems like it's up to DE as to whether or not they want to appease the crowd of people who want to feel accomplished and continually rewarded.  However...if anyone thinks they should always be rewarded, or needs to feel some sort of accomplishment, it might be time to look elsewhere outside of video games for that.  Other games might spoil people like that, but that doesn't contribute to growing passed the present culture of "entitlement."

 

If anyone thinks they should always be rewarded in life, then I feel really bad for that person. But if anyone thinks that playing a game should be more about having fun and less about getting frustrated, then I can only agree. But let's keep the discussion focused on the game, shall we? This is not the best place for lecturing others.

[krim36]

Void reward should be tokens and have vendor where you can buy all void rewards for tokens.T1 to T4 got a diffenrent value or diffenrent type of tokens get enough buy what you want.No more crappy RNG system in void reward it just to diluted and not a balanced reward system.Defense and Interception mission everywhere should be reward accumulative like survival.The only problem i see is the defense(if modified), interception (if modified)and survival would be more popular then doing other type of mission in void with a token system.

 

Also dont get why prime stuff is not on the market for plats we can already trade plat for them at a stupid cost, under 100 plats for sets of weapons and frames.(not the new stuff...)I can get for 40 or 50plat  frost prime set how much is regular frost again?...(lol)Other problem i see is this game economie.  I got over 5 million credits and super easy to make that i can barely do anything with got all the mods,frames and weapons i wanted.Plat is a joke with trade system dont need to buy some.

[OniDax]

So when are we going to get a Dev response on hot topics like this thread?: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/247176-previous-primes-will-get-a-rework-look-wise/page-2#entry2880663

[(PSN)supersocc11]

So when is the next ps4 update coming??

[darkwolfskull]

yo way have they not put it on xbox 360 and ps3 they wood make a freaking ment

[Edgedemon]

Can we be honest? It's a point of contention after every single bloody update to the void. Something is always #*($%%@ up, something is always wrong, and everything is always more diluted. Do you guys have any real plans to fix it?

and how do you expect they they fix that? as more parts are added the search gets longer unless you start getting more keys... wait they did, at least rhino prime is out of the RARE list, still has to be seen when will loki prime get out too.

 

 

Finally! When can we expect Tethra? Can we expect it? And primed chamber? What about that? That's been gone for even longer.

screw the tethra i would give all four for one for the previous wraith weapons (except Gorgon which i got... and its cool) or the Snipetron or the Dual Ether Daggers... still i also want primed chamber

[KvotheTheArcane1]

and how do you expect they they fix that? as more parts are added the search gets longer unless you start getting more keys... wait they did, at least rhino prime is out of the RARE list, still has to be seen when will loki prime get out too.

Any one of the millions of token system ideas, "focus" bar ideas (i.e. pick a part, run X missions, get said part), diminishing returns (i.e. get a loki prime helmet, it now drops X% less of the time, and stays that way until all parts are obtained from a void mission (i.e. T3 defense), or any mix.

 

Maybe it's me, but you make it sound like a difficult problem to solve. It's not really, we've had problems with the void since U8,

 

screw the tethra i would give all four for one for the previous wraith weapons (except Gorgon which i got... and its cool) or the Snipetron or the Dual Ether Daggers... still i also want primed chamber

You say that simply because you have them, while others don't. And they said some of the event weapons may return. (Or at least they're not planning on locking them away for ever EXCEPT for lato/braton vandal + founder stuff)

Edited June 18, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Nighttide77]

Hey Amazerath, sorry if you felt I personally singled you out in my response.  You weren't the only one I was talking about, and I tried to word my response in a way that hopefully would inspire others.  I've been around the forums a bit, and I'm a little concerned that others than yourself are sucked into the vacuum of video game reward/accomplishment/entitlement.  Hence a lot of the demands and spoiled attitudes I see from other players.

 

I guess I'm in the group of players that are passive about a Token system.  I don't think it would effect me whether DE implements one or not.  However, I just honestly don't believe it truly benefits anyone outside of a fake feeling of progression.  If DE wants to keep more players, they should probably implement a token system of some sort.  For me, though, the token system would just add tons of tokens with no benefit.

 

I play the game because I love the action and gameplay.  It's the reason I stopped playing Guild Wars 2.  But I cannot assume my opinions are the opinions of the group I fall into.

 

If players are frustrated because of the rewards, then I'm assuming they'd only ever feel happy with a game that always rewards players with what they desire.  In my perspective, the fun is in playing the game, itself, not in the rewards.  As a result, I am not supportive of players whom desire rewards, but of players who enjoy the experience.

 

I really think it's up to DE as to the path they want to take, but it always seems that it's the unhappy players that speak out the most.  It's also not always the unhappy players that make up the majority of the players that keep playing.  It's as it's said: you can't please everyone.

[Amazerath]

Hey Amazerath, sorry if you felt I personally singled you out in my response.  You weren't the only one I was talking about, and I tried to word my response in a way that hopefully would inspire others.  I've been around the forums a bit, and I'm a little concerned that others than yourself are sucked into the vacuum of video game reward/accomplishment/entitlement.  Hence a lot of the demands and spoiled attitudes I see from other players.

 

The concern is valid but I still consider it to be highly off-topic, so I'll avoid getting into that here. Feel free to PM me in case you're interested in knowing what I have to say about it.

 

As for the rest of your post, I only have a few things to say.

 

First, even if an addition to the game doesn't benefit you directly, you can still benefit from it if it causes the game to become more popular. If it benefits DE, then it benefits everyone because DE is developing the game we are playing.

 

Second, people play Warframe because they like the weapons, the art design, the warframes, the setting, the gameplay, the community or whatever. Different people do different things for different reasons. But the reason why rewards are good is because they make a fun game even more fun. And in case you haven't noticed, "having fun" is also a reward. It's the reward you get for doing something you enjoy doing. So you are playing for rewards just like everyone else and there is absolutely nothing wrong about that. The bottom line is that humans need reasons to do stuff.

 

Lastly, everything is up to DE. It's their game. As players, we are limited to playing the game, supporting it and offering constructive feedback. Needless to say, unhappy people will say that they are unhappy and happy people are probably too busy playing the game to even think about the forums. With that said, a complaint is not less valid solely because the author behind it is feeling unhappy. What makes a complaint less valid is feeling entitled to stuff. But there is a huge difference between these two feelings and people often (and wrongly) respond to them as if they were the same thing.

[Aeteris]

Primed Chamber Drop comfirmed!

[Sasquatchias]

Primed Chamber Drop comfirmed!

?

[Chacalblack]

Keep up the great job [DE]