All This Hate On Mutalist Osprey, Analysis On People Reactions To New Difficulty

[DragoneEyeOne]

Personally i have no issue with them on normal maps but in dedence they are annoying and overpowered. The pathing makes you go hunt them down on wave 2 and waste alot of time, getting even worse at higher waves. and the cloud does deal too much damage when your trying to protect the pod and get kill in a micro second.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

"Hey, player. We want you to play our game, so we're going to make it so on average you can play eight missions before you're out of revives. Any subsequent mission after those 8 has a roughly 50% chance of you losing everything you've acquired in that mission. Just got ahold of that shiny tranquil cleave you've been farming for over a course of weeks? Lol, screw you, Tenno."

 

Punching players in the groin repeatedly isn't good game design, friend.

Hes talking about the players who all they know to do is running around with Somas and Rhino primes and Stomp their way to the end of the mission, i have seen them and its really depressing. Hell yesterday i had 2 Rhinos on my team and all they did was standing there beside the Hive shooting at it like if they could do anything to it, i had to tell them that they need to find the tumors around the area to make it weaker, not that it matters since they just stood there waiting for ME to do it.

At the second Hive i stood there watching the dumpasses stand there around the hive shooting all the infested and taking damage from the Zero G zone, took them 30 mins to actuallly think and look for the tumors, took them another half an hour for them to find the BIG GLOWING TUMORS.

Thats the kind of players hes talking about, players that want it all for free and dont bring the excuse it was their first time cause they had on shot wonders like Soma, Brakk and some Melee i couldnt idenftify. They know how to play but apparently the Hive mission was too smart for them.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Hes talking about the players who all they know to do is running around with Somas and Rhino primes and Stomp their way to the end of the mission, i have seen them and its really depressing. Hell yesterday i had 2 Rhinos on my team and all they did was standing there beside the Hive shooting at it like if they could do anything to it, i had to tell them that they need to find the tumors around the area to make it weaker, not that it matters since they just stood there waiting for ME to do it.

At the second Hive i stood there watching the dumpasses stand there around the hive shooting all the infested and taking damage from the Zero G zone, took them 30 mins to actuallly think and look for the tumors, took them another half an hour for them to find the BIG GLOWING TUMORS.

Thats the kind of players hes talking about, players that want it all for free and dont bring the excuse it was their first time cause they had on shot wonders like Soma, Brakk and some Melee i couldnt idenftify. They know how to play but apparently the Hive mission was too smart for them.

 

If that's what he meant he should have said that, rather than making a blanket statement.

[SableSonata]

They have broken hitboxes, making them harder to hit, and a gas attack that has an instant AOE effect that's larger than its animation, and at high levels, can inflict toxin that is unavoidably lethal to many frames. 

 

It's difficult, but it's all artificial difficulty. It has nigh-unavoidable AOE attacks that can effectively cause instant death at high levels, broken hitboxes, and don't even come to the objective, forcing players to hunt them down at the end of a round.

[CapedBaldy]

If I were to even begin to consider to justify the new ospreys, they need to make their hitbox actually work and make health regain a more common thing in the game. At this rate, only Rhinos will play infested, with a minority of Oberons and Trinities and Valkyrs. All this toxic damage will eventually just promote lame 4-spam.

 

I personally think viral damage would be a nice touch. They would be support units for the infested then. Ignore them? If you're skilled and careful enough to not take hits, yes you can afford that.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

They have broken hitboxes, making them harder to hit, and a gas attack that has an instant AOE effect that's larger than its animation, and at high levels, can inflict toxin that is unavoidably lethal to many frames. 

 

It's difficult, but it's all artificial difficulty. It has nigh-unavoidable AOE attacks that can effectively cause instant death at high levels, broken hitboxes, and don't even come to the objective, forcing players to hunt them down at the end of a round.

WHat you mean by "High lv"? because anything beyond lv 50 is just lame one shotters

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

I'll post a proposed fix here that I made in another thread:

Bigger and brighter, yet transparent gas clouds Fixed

Toxin proc does not take effect until you've been in the gas cloud for, say, 3.5 seconds or so (Notionphil)

Health is drained while in the cloud of gas like the Parasitic Eximus drains your energy, except it scales according to enemy level

Gas cloud will affect the player in 1.5 seconds, not instantaneously (taken from a post by DiabolusUrsus about a toxic cloud in a thread somewhere)

Edited June 20, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Honestly, I think just swapping the toxic proc for viral would solve the OP issues, while altering behavior a bit (so they don't get stuck so much) and fixing their hitbox would fix the other issues.

 

That way they help support the infested instead of being some kind of ultra-dangerous murdermachine more deadly than a dozen ancients.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

I'll post a proposed fix here that I made in another thread:

Bigger and brighter, yet transparent gas clouds Fixed

Toxin proc does not take effect until you've been in the gas cloud for, say, 3.5 seconds or so (Notionphil)

Health is drained while in the cloud of gas like the Parasitic Eximus drains your energy, except it scales according to enemy level

Gas cloud will affect the player in 1.5 seconds, not instantaneously (taken from a post by DiabolusUrsus about a toxic cloud in a thread somewhere)

Thast actually a pretty interresting idea. Gonna check out your thread then.

[Einsig_SV]

This is not an enemy that requires you to think. No amount of "thinking" helps you against this thing.

 

It does not use a mechanic conducive to teaching you to play skillfully. It shows up, then flies at you at insane speed leaving a shield ignoring giant toxin cloud that is almost impossible to dodge and often procs toxin, killing you instantly.

 

This enemy is an example of fake difficulty at its finest. It is not fun, or challenging, it's just frustrating.

 

Just like Grineer Commanders Switch Teleporting you with no warning or possibility of avoiding them, leaving you stunned in the middle of a crowd of lead-slinging Grineer that kill you instantly.

 

Just like lancers and crewmen tossing instant death grenades at you that have no audio cues to warn you before they go off and explode within a second of hitting the ground.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Ion_Sig

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

This is not an enemy that requires you to think. No amount of "thinking" helps you against this thing.

 

It does not use a mechanic conducive to teaching you to play skillfully. It shows up, then flies at you at insane speed leaving a shield ignoring giant toxin cloud that is almost impossible to dodge and often procs toxin, killing you instantly.

 

This enemy is a condensed example of fake difficulty at its finest. It is not fun, or challenging, it's just frustrating.

No that tittle goes to T4 Enemies, cant get cheaper than that

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Thast actually a pretty interresting idea. Gonna check out your thread then.

You can find it here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249651-infested-osprey-suggestion/

So far, only Notionphil has responded, but perhaps it will blossom into a helpful discussion that will lead to some action.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Honestly, I think just swapping the toxic proc for viral would solve the OP issues, while altering behavior a bit (so they don't get stuck so much) and fixing their hitbox would fix the other issues.

 

That way they help support the infested instead of being some kind of ultra-dangerous murdermachine more deadly than a dozen ancients.

You got a good point there, but what if instead they aply stacks of Corrosive damage the longer you stay on the cloud, last for say 5-8 seconds. That could dramatically increase the damage of other infested while being a decent thread in on itself

[Cpl_Facehugger]

You got a good point there, but what if instead they aply stacks of Corrosive damage the longer you stay on the cloud, last for say 5-8 seconds. That could dramatically increase the damage of other infested while being a decent thread in on itself

I don't particularly like that solution for two main reasons:

 

Most frame builds don't rely on their armor for protection to begin with due to how bad Tenno armor scales, so it won't have much utility against Tenno. Meanwhile, lopping off half a Tenno's health has plenty of utility against a Tenno, since those chargers can chew right through shields in seconds if you're not paying attention.

 

And the osprey visual design looks more like a support unit. They carry crawlers into battle, they have no obvious weapons, they don't have any sort of imposing design or look particularly hostile. They look like a support unit.

[DZ1JMeyer]

Honestly, my only complaint is the hitbox. I didn't realize that there was so much debate about these guys until I came out of my cave and glanced at this part of the forum—the most memorable aspect of my interactions with them so far was an embarrassing incident the other day when I was running a Derelict Assassination to grind up my Gorgon Wraith; and briefly became convinced that one was glitched and actually dead, until I used Rhino Stomp at the next crowd and saw the fellow explode (which was most embarrassing because I'd wasted a few magazines from my GW and then my Despair "confirming" it being a bug—clearly, I have terrible aim).

 

 

Admittedly, I haven't been playing with the more fragile support frames very much in the short time since the update; but Oberon was fine, and I did a bit with Valkyr that went fairly well.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

I don't particularly like that solution for two main reasons:

 

Most frame builds don't rely on their armor for protection to begin with due to how bad Tenno armor scales, so it won't have much utility against Tenno. Meanwhile, lopping off half a Tenno's health has plenty of utility against a Tenno, since those chargers can chew right through shields in seconds if you're not paying attention.

 

And the osprey visual design looks more like a support unit. They carry crawlers into battle, they have no obvious weapons, they don't have any sort of imposing design or look particularly hostile. They look like a support unit.

OK Viral seems legit.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Honestly, my only complaint is the hitbox. I didn't realize that there was so much debate about these guys until I came out of my cave and glanced at this part of the forum—the most memorable aspect of my interactions with them so far was an embarrassing incident the other day when I was running a Derelict Assassination to grind up my Gorgon Wraith; and briefly became convinced that one was glitched and actually dead, until I used Rhino Stomp at the next crowd and saw the fellow explode (which was most embarrassing because I'd wasted a few magazines from my GW and then my Despair "confirming" it being a bug—clearly, I have terrible aim).

 

 

Admittedly, I haven't been playing with the more fragile support frames very much in the short time since the update; but Oberon was fine, and I did a bit with Valkyr that went fairly well.

I did it with both Nyx and my always trusty Ember and did fairly well gainst them, yeah their hitbox is pretty small, thankfully the bullet hell created from my SUpra covered all space he could be in :3

[DZ1JMeyer]

Yeah, I was using a Rank 14 GW with max Shred, and a Rank 29 Despair with maxed Barrel Diffusion and maxed Lethal Torrent (no gunslinger, for some reason, must've forgotten), so theoretically I should've been able to do so too; unfortunately, I've been spoiled by the Soma so I'm no good with recoil anymore, and the Despair evidently has enough spread that I need to be more careful with my aiming. Oh well. First-world problems, amirite?

Edited June 20, 2014 by DZ1JMeyer

[Elijin]

So at first I didnt see the problem with this unit. Solo'd the event, (Which I have complaints about, but they're mostly about how boring the infested are, with the only thing to be worried about, is a cheapshot from a disruptor as you open a door or come around a corner). Then, I did the gift of the lotus alert.

In seconds, I went from being indifferent towards this unit, to wanting it out of the goddamn game. Its not got defense map AI. It doesnt care about the core, drops crawlers places they cant get to the core, wonders about like a twat and gets stuck all over the map.

Each wave shouldnt take north of 5 minutes while we hunt down the slow kids who have gotten stuck in a door frame, or are just juggling crawlers back at the spawn.

You forgot to code their AI for defense maps, so get the F*** out of defense maps DE.

[Kartumterek]

Yeah, I was using a Rank 14 GW with max Shred, and a Rank 29 Despair with maxed Barrel Diffusion and maxed Lethal Torrent (no gunslinger, for some reason, must've forgotten), so theoretically I should've been able to do so too; unfortunately, I've been spoiled by the Soma so I'm no good with recoil anymore, and the Despair evidently has enough spread that I need to be more careful with my aiming. Oh well. First-world problems, amirite?

 

this is exactly the reason ppl who use all of the toys at their disposal (aka Mastery) are winners versus crippling dependency on OP flavor of the month styles... not dogging you personally, but there are MANY players who only use Soma or only use Ogris or only use Castanas etc that when a new technique/style comes in they just cant adapt as fast as they should. and those are the guys who moan about things being unfair and frustrating and wah wah wah

 

not the games fault you are not well trained. it is your own

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

this is exactly the reason ppl who use all of the toys at their disposal (aka Mastery) are winners versus crippling dependency on OP flavor of the month styles... not dogging you personally, but there are MANY players who only use Soma or only use Ogris or only use Castanas etc that when a new technique/style comes in they just cant adapt as fast as they should. and those are the guys who moan about things being unfair and frustrating and wah wah wah

 

not the games fault you are not well trained. it is your own

Thats why i tent to stay as far away as posible to new weapons, i only got the Soma cause the Stalker keeps nagging on my low lv frames and i just want to rape his face off, OP weapon for an OP A****** i supose.

 

I tent to use more varied guns like the Supra, Akmagnus and of course the Grakata, i used the Grakata before it was cool! Sometimes the Obscure weapons are hidden gems with their own tricks that may impress.

[Methanoid]

gives you a reason to carry health drop pods doesn't it?

 

edit:

 

also: i actually switched up to using the boar prime on this mission.

1: because three 60% mods is crazy. :P

2: because it murders these flying buggers pretty easily

3: because it's just really fun to go nuts with a shotgun when the huge swarms of infested come boiling through this awesome tileset.

 

yeah when solo'ing the event near the end i used the boar prime as well, its a pretty good room clearer with punch thru equipped.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Thats why i tent to stay as far away as posible to new weapons, i only got the Soma cause the Stalker keeps nagging on my low lv frames and i just want to rape his face off, OP weapon for an OP A****** i supose.

 

I tent to use more varied guns like the Supra, Akmagnus and of course the Grakata, i used the Grakata before it was cool! Sometimes the Obscure weapons are hidden gems with their own tricks that may impress.

Very true, that's why I'm looking at weapons I skipped right past before now. I noticed how much damage the Supra does in those Corpus/Grineer invasion missions, so I'm going to get that thing build and see what happens!

[DZ1JMeyer]

this is exactly the reason ppl who use all of the toys at their disposal (aka Mastery) are winners versus crippling dependency on OP flavor of the month styles... not dogging you personally, but there are MANY players who only use Soma or only use Ogris or only use Castanas etc that when a new technique/style comes in they just cant adapt as fast as they should. and those are the guys who moan about things being unfair and frustrating and wah wah wah

 

not the games fault you are not well trained. it is your own

Eh, I can see your point, but I think you're speaking in rather broad strokes there. In my case, I'm Soma-spoiled because I've only recently started to have enough time to really play the game properly again (since...what was it...the Cicero Crisis? Somewhere around then), and in the mean time, I popped in during events to qualify for the rewards as quickly as possible (thus, usually, Soma, Brakk, Hate—a bit boring after awhile, but the most efficient option at my disposal).

 

I can see what you're getting at, but there are way too many factors that go into a person's activity to just assume that someone's using OP stuff and it's best to use everything. I mean, I wouldn't even have been using the GW if I wasn't grinding for Mastery; and if I were using my triple-forma'ed Drakgoon or my quadruple-forma'ed Soma, it would've been a piece of cake.

 

If you don't have that much free time, there is value in mastering what you like and/or are good at.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

But its totally fair that we can just destroy the entire Infested race with a single vortex right? I think is about time our enemies give us some legit trouble other than one hit kills

So they could have an eximus, or a semi rare unit that disables/protects other infested against powers.

 

And yes, maybe vortex could be nerfed, I know, I know people hate nerfing, but anything that trivializes an entire faction will need a nerf if we want a semblance of balancing.

 

I'm not even 100% sold on a vortex nerf tbh.

 

(inb4 "DON'T NURF MY VAUBAN!", Vauban is my fave frame too)

 

Edit: What WF needs is challenge, not punishment. The ospery that has no fire animation, no tells, no warning before it drops an AOE shield ignoring shot on you is punishing, not challenge.

Edited June 20, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1