I Would Like To Thank Steve For Throwing Down The Mic On The Mods And Joining The Scott Side Of The Void.

[Khranitel]

I see a lot of people  that need to get over themselves posting in this thread.

There is just that kind of people who are always Right™©®

But sometimes they don't, and they're having this cognitive dissonance thingy. Sometimes it hurts.

[LukeAura]

The mod system is not only unique, it puts the game in the players hands, something most developers would be way to afraid to do. What's more challenging adding to a skill tree for vets, or dealing with the insane amount of damage and utility a player can add to a weapon or frame. Not only that but building content around the extremes that we as players are continuously finding and pushing. Hat's off to you DE.

Putting the game in the players hands is something not a lot of developers do because it's not something that works except for a very open ended game. Minecraft, and even games like Dark Souls and Borderlands. Minecraft let's the player do whatever, in such they can focus their talents or activities in any one direction. Dark Souls, every playstyle has a use that can't be imitated by any other. Borderlands the end goal is to complete the story, but because of its pacing and openness that can be done at any speed with any weapon style with any playstyle. 

Warframe is a very objective oriented game, the whole point of its system as is is to get through the mission to earn your rewards. It encourages people to play as fast and efficiently as possible. So this game can be changed in many directions, but it's using conflicting core designs principles in which one of them must change. 

If the mod system is the core, and is mostly then about amassing power then the gameplay has to become more varied and open ended to counterbalance. The game must encourage the use of putting control in the players hands, not directing them towards the most efficient way to play. 

If the in mission gameplay is the core, then the mod system must change to be less about power and more about augmenting weapons with unique effects. Where the most efficient way is the way you can use it best. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Holy crap guys, so much hostility. If you don't like the system, you don't have to! No one's forcing you to like it and likewise saying that there is no skill in Warframe and it all relies on mods is false. Wear your best mods and stand still in any game mode. I dare you.

 

It does rely on the mod system like any MMO relies on it's spells/talent trees, but the use of them is what defines the player's skill.

Pray tell then, what skill is there?

Coptering? Ha! "skill" my &#!, it's barely 4 button presses.

Shooting? Properly modded you kill everything in one hit no matter where you hit them.

Melee? It's still mash e more or less.

 

There is no skill in stacking base damage+/crit chance/damage + and elements and a punch through onto a weapon.

 

Steve is the man.

I love that DE is honest and dosn't spew the corporate bullsh*t that we are so used to hearing from game developers.

 

An honest and informed answer on a topic that he had considered and thought about, he admited that the fusing upgrade wasn't 100% perfect in retrospect but that moving forward the game will develop and how the system evolves in U14 will be intresting.

Can't tell if sarcasm, or serious. If serious, what stream did you watch?

[SoulEchelon]

I think I watched a different Devstream. What I saw was just an angry developer trying to protect his flawed creation.

 

Yeah, because openly admitting that you would have done something different in hindsight = totally protecting a flawed creation.

 

Steve knows his system isn't perfect. No systems are. Every system in every game has some sort of flaw that can either weaken the game as a whole, or be exploited by gamers. This happens. Nothing is fullproof...nor fool-proof.

 

He didn't just blow off the question. Didn't brush it away. Hell, he didn't call the fundamental question itself "bullS#&$". He called the festering, heavily opinionated, and mostly factless crap surrounding the fundamental question bullS#&$. And then he commenced to answer the question, state why he disagrees with it, how it can continue to be improved, and in hindsight how he would have done things differently.

 

If the person in question would have asked it in a far more appealing, amiable way instead of basically insulting the developers, then maybe Steve wouldn't have had to curb stomp him in such a way. These guys have been putting up with this S#&$ for a good long time. I'm pretty damn happy to see one of them finally say "Okay, real talk time."

 

 

"Substituting content for actual content." I loved that line.

[(PSN)Tego818]

As much as he disagreed with the "scraping the bottom of the barrel" comment, it does kind of seem like his answer proved zamboni right.

 

The new channeling mods are basically corrupted mods you get in dark sectors that revolve around channeling.

[korxysn]

Unless someone wants to give a cliffnotes version of all those pages, I just read the big first post, figured any new ideas afterwards would be edited in and I posted there already, I think it overcomplicates the game. The Warframe itself having a skilltree is ok, but now gun attachments, STANCES having their own skilltrees with their own parameters. Creativity is good, but you gotta have a healthy balance of simple and complex, not saying the mod system is perfect but you can do some neat things to your stuff or augment your Warframe's powers differently and it's a little fun being able to do that. The problem is with the opposition, the enemies need work, they need some sophisticated AI and that may come with time. Because even if that thread's idea was considered and implemented, it doesn't solve anything if the enemies still keel over just by sneezing at them unless you spent an hour+ in a Survival.

 

 

only one reply i can think to make for this... warframe doesnt have a skill tree. period. a COMBO tree is not a skill tree. no aspect of the game has a skill tree at this point in time. none of the weapons fundamentally alter their effects. warframes dont fundamentally alter their effects. with or without mods. a skill tree unlocks and alters skills in a very definite way with a system of pre-requisites and tradeoffs. the existence of 'essential mods' does not constitute a pre-requisite.

 

the mod system is very simple to use. very simple to learn and adapt to. but the number of mods available and the levels involved means that you have to make choices. too many options is not the same as complicating the system.

[Liminal]

The mod system isn't innherently bad. But the fact that there are issues with it isn't "BS". I'll agree the question wasn't properly worded, whoever asked it could have been less inflammatory.
 

Still, there's a reason most builds are the same across the board. And I'd like to see those threads Scott mentions, because all I see is people asking for the same things and suggesting the same things (+damage).

 

Proper customization starts by offering players equally viable options so each of them will then consider some better than others according to his/her gamestyle.
+180% damage is better in every single way to +60% magazine size. That's the problem with the current mods, and it hasn't been addressed since ... well, never.

[TenshuYuusha]

only one reply i can think to make for this... warframe doesnt have a skill tree. period. a COMBO tree is not a skill tree. no aspect of the game has a skill tree at this point in time. none of the weapons fundamentally alter their effects. warframes dont fundamentally alter their effects. with or without mods. a skill tree unlocks and alters skills in a very definite way with a system of pre-requisites and tradeoffs. the existence of 'essential mods' does not constitute a pre-requisite.

 

the mod system is very simple to use. very simple to learn and adapt to. but the number of mods available and the levels involved means that you have to make choices. too many options is not the same as complicating the system.

I was talking about the OP in the big revamp thread, not the current system. It proposes the warframes have a skilltree, which sounded nice, they didn't seem to get any red flags from me, then it got to gun attachments with only the notion of "well we'd have to mess with RNG a bit so it doesn't make it bad".. sure.. then they started proposing melee STANCES have skilltrees, with their own parameters to choose from and this and that, it really didn't make any sense.

Edited July 4, 2014 by TenshuYuusha

[10twenty4]

The mod system is interesting in theory, but it's been poorly implemented. The mods are really no different than a more traditional skill tree. It's all just +damage, +elemental damage, and maybe +clipsize or +reload. You cannot have a viable gun without them, and that's not interesting.

 

The mods with the potential to be interesting, like maglev or heavy impact, are strict downgrades to redirection or streamline, and that simply isn't fun.

[krim36]

I love when Steve sayd that they are bandage mods(or what i call junk)...Din't like how he handle that situation,mad that his work was call out(partly true, not all true)and din't really read the full thread to get the points...True that some of the recent mods are useless some are good like the event mods.The major problem from mods is limitation for builds since you got to use specific mods like dmg mods(serration,split chamber,hornet strike....),then elemental combo mods and crit mods for specific weapons.Where the room after that for other mods?And if you don't use these kind dmg builds for your weapon the game feel like your doing something wrong....

 

Maybe the solution is a mini skill three like destiny where get bonus(around 5%) ,change a bit the weapon use and +- reward system at every x amount of level. Aura/Stance slot for mod like hush(silencer)or what name the bandage mods getting a use in this game.I'm just trying find a way to make this dumb mods usefull and to have diffenrent builds...

[SignumCruxis]

The "dumb mods" are useful as they stated in the LS a couple of weeks ago I believe, wherein if you don't like being flat on your @$$ after a heavy's ground slam, there ARE mods for it. Those mods don't HAVE to be so good you want to use them, on the other hand they're good enough that if you hate being flat on your @$$ for so long ,you can change that. Which I completely agree with.

 

No the current mod system is not perfect, but look at some of these mod system suggestions - if new players are frightened of the current systems complexity at face value, what in the actual F*** are they going to think when they see those others? And to what end? To make intruder worth using if you don't need extra hacking time? Get out of here, LOL.

Edited July 4, 2014 by SignumCruxis

[Sitchrea]

I think the biggest problem is that Rebecca kinda read the post wrong. The Great Zamobni's point was that there are a slew of mods to use, yet not enough mods to use them. I remember reading that thread, and it was nothing like what Steve took it to be.

 

I do think he could have said it better, but I agree with Steve's point of Loot and Skill working together; however someone misinterpreted The Great Zamboni and made it sound like Zamboni was saying that loot didn't matter - but that wasn't his point. Zamboni's point was that loot -does- matter, however we are not given enough space to use all of it.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The "dumb mods" are useful as they stated in the LS a couple of weeks ago I believe, wherein if you don't like being flat on your @$$ after a heavy's ground slam, there ARE mods for it. Those mods don't HAVE to be so good you want to use them, on the other hand they're good enough that if you hate being flat on your @$$ for so long ,you can change that. Which I completely agree with.

 

No the current mod system is not perfect, but look at some of these mod system suggestions - if new players are frightened of the current systems complexity at face value, what in the actual F*** are they going to think when they see those others? And to what end? To make intruder worth using if you don't need extra hacking time? Get out of here, LOL.

The mods are mostly useful, the problem is are they useful enough? By and large, the answer is no. Warm coat? Please. Intruder? Whoever thought of that crap... And then there are the semi useful mods:

 

Elemental resistances: While useful, they don't provide protection against a wide enough range of damage, and the damage resistance they do give is too small. A redirection or vitality of the same cost is always better numbers wise.

 

Another example: Fast hands is nice for the reload speed, but why not spend time reloading after everything is dead by simply adding another 90% damage to your weapon? Now you simply need to reload less instead of reloading faster.

[SignumCruxis]

And being able to use all of it isn't something I can agree with, Sitchrea.

 

That aside I didn't post this thread to get into so much hate&debate, there are dedicated topics for such, but hey, I should've expected as much. '~'

[Yaerion]

Vortexed threads and Bounced from General Discussion.

[Furyion]

cookie cutter needed..rofl loawls IMEOOOO!

[ShadowCore67]

And bring back the Mutalist Osprey because amount of hurt over the fact that their standard builds nullified a bit was a good way to teach folks to equip other stuff.

 

 

I can not agree with this enough. Players whine the moment they run into a challenge that they could solve easily by changing one simple mod but refusing to do so.

[Momoynator]

Pray tell then, what skill is there?

Coptering? Ha! "skill" my @$$, it's barely 4 button presses.

Shooting? Properly modded you kill everything in one hit no matter where you hit them.

Melee? It's still mash e more or less.

 

There is no skill in stacking base damage+/crit chance/damage + and elements and a punch through onto a weapon.

 

Can't tell if sarcasm, or serious. If serious, what stream did you watch?

 

I'd love to carry on a constructive debate back and forth, but at the end of the day, we're talking about a system that won't be changed (in the near future and not in any way the "majority" of the game's players would like), so it would be just a waste of time. Not to mentioned, I don't get the vibe that you're up for a constructive feedback that may go against what you think lol.

 

That being said, unless there is a mod that auto aims for you, there is still skill concerned, as little as it may be.

 

The mod system can be improved on, for sure, but it is still a functional and valid system, just not one some people might like (apparently).

 

tl;dr - We can both have our point of views and play the game.The system is still valid though flawed. No need to remake a system from the ground up just yet.

 

Have a good day sir

Edited July 4, 2014 by Momoynator

[Onisa]

I loved the complete inconsistency between the reaction to Zamboni's question and the first one with the graph.

Since, ya know, Zamboni's issue seems to be with that sharp downwards slant on the graph. The one the team shrugged and acknowledged.

[Mak_Gohae]

Sorry to the OP i thought they were going to just add my post at the end. I didnt know they would change the title.

 

 

The mods are mostly useful, the problem is are they useful enough? By and large, the answer is no. Warm coat? Please. Intruder? Whoever thought of that crap... And then there are the semi useful mods:

 

Elemental resistances: While useful, they don't provide protection against a wide enough range of damage, and the damage resistance they do give is too small. A redirection or vitality of the same cost is always better numbers wise.

 

Another example: Fast hands is nice for the reload speed, but why not spend time reloading after everything is dead by simply adding another 90% damage to your weapon? Now you simply need to reload less instead of reloading faster.

 

The problem with this discussion is that, Yes, there are some mods like Intruder that are questionable since you can use those.... hack thingies? I dont remember the name because i hardly use them. Anyway, those hack thingies that bypass the use of the mods...but people tend to throw every single mod that gets little use into one pot for the argument and you shouldn't do that.

 

I never used Undying Will but after doing Void Survival a couple of times with Angstrum as my main... i bought that mod out ASAP and maxed it because i was killing myself because of lag, teammaters, enemies randomly appearing close, with my rockets. Same with Diamond Skin, i was pugging (important factor) doing a high level Corpus Defense alert and i had to put that on.

 

If the mod has one use, and i do actually mean one, you should just try to expand on it rather than just getting rid of it. If the Mod has none then i agree. While everyone was flipping out about the MOsprey they could've put Antitoxin to alleviate some of the problems but people rather than to that end up just complaining and saying that they should not be forced into using the mods that they never use. 

 

The game is played by a lot of people and not everyone plays the same so before saying X thing doesnt work for me get rid of it. You should look at way that it can be included in your way of play. I dont use ES and Shields 90% of the time i play but that doesnt mean that i should go out and rail against shields. Just like Scott said on the last stream, there are people that ninja at different levels. 

[Archistopheles]

And Scott was just like "See Steve? This is why we drink during a livestream"

[KvotheTheArcane1]

That being said, unless there is a mod that auto aims for you, there is still skill concerned, as little as it may be.

I think your missing the point here, mods eliminate the need for skill. Skill is not being able to move a mouse and press a button. That's... I dunno, a sign of being alive? Skill is more complicated than that. Skill might be best described as fighting a dark souls boss and not getting hit once.

 

@Mak:

Not even gonna get into it with you, nothing I say has ever made an impact on you. You don't even understand what the illusion of choice is AFAIK, despite me trying to explain it. WF's mod system is a perfect example of an illusion of choice

 

Edited July 4, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[BETAOPTICS]

Honestly, I like the current concept. A lot of the isues is the overwhelming gap between levels though. In normal circumstances, maxed durability mods make you an immortal god. Of course, Dark Sectors and Nightmere mode are DE's response to boredom of veteran players. The continued discussion begs the question whether or not that mission difficulty setting would finally serve a purpose in order to satisfy differences.

Is it perfect system? Heck no! There hardly is room for true exploration. On paper, a health tank and healer support Oberon sounds fun, but in reality it can not sustain to any extent. Fun to use but tools given and scaling take it to very unviable build category. I like to challenge myself time to times and surely this game has the potential to do so, but it has to fix certain aspects to become a very solid and balanced system.

Think about it. How awesome would it be if Oberon could be viably built in many diferent ways. Each style would be unique, viable and play out differently. You could do full tank Oberon, caster Oberon or healer support, health tank Oberon and every one of the builds and playstyles would have clear benefits and downsides on them.

Or if agility could be a way to evade damage and trough this evasion, be a form of sustainability.

Edited July 4, 2014 by BETAOPTICS

[Mak_Gohae]

I think your missing the point here, mods eliminate the need for skill. Skill is not being able to move a mouse and press a button. That's... I dunno, a sign of being alive? Skill is more complicated than that. Skill might be best described as fighting a dark souls boss and not getting hit once.

 

 

Can you elaborate on what skill means to you for the folks that dont play those video games?

Because it seems like this idea of no skill is picturing some scenario where you put on a mod and simply walk forward shooting without worrying about anything that is going on. And, yes, this can be achieved if you forma to hell and walk through Venus but at that point your challenge is not Venus, is it?

 

 

@Mak:

Not even gonna get into it with you, nothing I say has ever made an impact on you. You don't even understand what the illusion of choice is AFAIK, despite me trying to explain it. WF's mod system is a perfect example of an illusion of choice

 

I dont run shields and ES 90% of the time, is that an illusion?

 

Like i said above, when discussing this subject people tend to throw a broad net when they are discussion specific things. Yes, we need Serration, HS for weapons but that is one or two mods of your whole set. I actually create different builds for weapons because ... i can. It's that simple, why not?

 

What's required for WF? You either need Vitality or Redirection NOT BOTH simply because of the damage done but some times you can run without any of them. Flow? Flow is for continued casting and not all frames have abilities that you need to cast continuously. I mean you can actually do that with every frame but playing by Slash and Dashing like mad is kind of weird. Streamline i think is more needed than Flow because it gives you the ability to use abilities faster because it lowers the energy requirement but, like flow, it depends on how much are you going to be casting. Streamline and Flow are in the same spot as Shield and Life, you can go for either but both are not needed. Intensity is one that people with probably deem needed but for CC frames i think Stretch is probably more important so it depends on the frame.

 

The Illusion of choice for a lot of people are created by them, really. And that's because of the "no skill" idea that they have becasue if you put on a mod the game does give you more of a cushion. So there's a group of folks go for a huge cushion most of the time and then they blame the game because they decide to go for that cushion and act like this is the only way to go about it.

 

 

 

Honestly, I like the current concept. A lot of the isues is the overwhelming gap between levels though. In normal circumstances, maxed durability mods make you an immortal god. Of course, Dark Sectors and Nightmere mode are DE's response to boredom of veteran players. The continued discussion begs the question whether or not that mission difficulty setting would finally serve a purpose in order to satisfy differences.

 

 

How about a conclave rating for missions?

Each planet has a rating for the max rank allowed for mods so if you have max everything but pop into Venus your mods get de-rank for a level allowed in Venus? So that means that everyone is essentially at the same level. And after you reach 30 then there is no limit to mods. It's like that system Steve showed for the new Conflict missions for the Dark Sectors.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Llyssa]

Hm. Have to see this now, but I find the most amusing answer so far:

 

"HE DID IT WRONG! HE SHOULD COME TO THE FORUMS SO WE CAN NIT-PICK HIS REASONING UNTIL HE FINALLY AGREES WITH US!"

 

Gee, I wonder why he doesn't want to do that.