Senketsu_ Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 No. It has nothing to do with spontaneity ... spontaneity is the mother of inspiration What this is all about is putting good effort into making a really good product Remember what Michelangelo told Julius II over and over again? "Qunado e fatto!" ("When it is done") It is obvious that DE spent a great deal of time thinking about this character with regards to his abilities What is not at all obvious is whether they considered how he fit into the rest of the Warframe universe In any other game the look, the name, the glitz could work just fine In Warframe, he sticks out like a sore thumb The name is just the coup de grace of poor story telling and you magically know all about him and his look, and lore because of one 11 second long trailer? that only showed his one side and a closeup on his helmet? you must be using void magic to be able to know exactly the amount of time the devs spent on his look, and the amount of thought that went into his lore that only you magically know right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Mirage, Ember, Hydroid, Nekros. I wouldn't dispute that ... In fact there is little cohesiveness found except for the Guyver-like look to most of the warframes Truth be told, the variation of weapon aesthetics is much, much greater - spanning millennia in design BUT, that variation was EXPLAINED in the Lore - the need for "the gun and blade" to defeat the technologically superior Senteints And truth be told, there are thematic links between the characters you mention ... Ember, Hydroid and Limbo each control one of the five basic elements (according to ancient Eastern and Western thought systems) of Fire, Water and the Void Mirage controls Light and Nekros controls Life - also fundamental properties All this is very good for Lore as it builds up a system for thinking about The Void - what it is, how it changes individuals But even so, common sense tells you that this character is like that game on Sesame Street ... "One of these things is not like the other One of these things just doesn't belong" Edited October 24, 2014 by ElHefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 "One of these things is not like the other One of these things just doesn't belong" We've got some precedent for frames wearing hats. Vauban comes to mind, Frost as well. And if you look at the hi-def picture, the hat only seems to be hatlike in shape. It looks like it could lock firmly in place over the exposed energy inside his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyEnneract Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I wouldn't dispute that ... In fact there is little cohesiveness found except for the Guyver-like look to most of the warframes Truth be told, the variation of weapon aesthetics is much, much greater - spanning millennia in design BUT, that variation was EXPLAINED in the Lore - the need for "the gun and blade" to defeat the technologically superior Senteints And truth be told, there are thematic links between the characters you mention ... Ember, Hydroid and Limbo each control one of the five basic elements (according to ancient Eastern and Western thought systems) of Fire, Water and the Void Mirage controls Light and Nekros controls Life - also fundamental properties All this is very good for Lore as it builds up a system for thinking about The Void - what it is, how it changes individuals But even so, common sense tells you that this character is like that game on Sesame Street ... "One of these things is not like the other One of these things just doesn't belong" Common sense cannot be invoked upon here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishworshipper Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I wouldn't dispute that ... In fact there is little cohesiveness found except for the Guyver-like look to most of the warframes Truth be told, the variation of weapon aesthetics is much, much greater - spanning millennia in design BUT, that variation was EXPLAINED in the Lore - the need for "the gun and blade" to defeat the technologically superior Senteints And truth be told, there are thematic links between the characters you mention ... Ember, Hydroid and Limbo each control one of the five basic elements (according to ancient Eastern and Western thought systems) of Fire, Water and the Void Mirage controls Light and Nekros controls Life - also fundamental properties All this is very good for Lore as it builds up a system for thinking about The Void - what it is, how it changes individuals But even so, common sense tells you that this character is like that game on Sesame Street ... "One of these things is not like the other One of these things just doesn't belong" You know, instead of broken recording "This Warframe doesn't belong" and ignoring literally every argument saying why it does, you should try explaining why it doesn't belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senketsu_ Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 gotta love the dislike. it amuses me how people will continue to complain that the next big thing is not ninja enough or warror-like. yes, that was prolly the original plan for this game, but we all can agree that DE, at one point or another, said "we need to expand" and so they did. do note that when DE said "space ninjas," it is not to be taken literally, it is merely an analogy to best describe the nature of the Tenno themselves. perhaps the first batch of frames actually were akin to space ninjas/warriors but in their own original way. however the only one that posseses ninja-like qualities is Ash, if we want to be real here. but still, every warframe before U7 somewhat conformed to a specific aesthetic system. the diversity then started after they came up with Vauban and Saryn in U7. the designs were neat but erratic compared to their predecessors. the ninja-less quality of the game should have been noticed there as Vauban is essentially an engineer and Saryn a fashionable woman. the diversity stops moving and gets a bit more in touch with Scifi aspects with the release of Nova. and then it trails off again with the release of the erratic shaman-themed Nekros. that is clearly a non-ninja/warrior. but no complaints, right? and then there's Valkyr and Oberon which are still non-ninja. even if we did see Valk's original form, do you really want to bet that she'd seem ninja-like at the very least? warrior nonetheless, but ninja? i dont think so. and at U12-13, we are provided with Zephyr and Hydroid. for those who believe strongly in the outdated "ninjas play free" slogan, this should have been a huge middle finger. Zephyr is in no possible way aesthetically a ninja nor a warrior. she clearly represents avian animals, which does not entail combat. and Hydroid, though a warrior, is essentially pirate. at this point, if you believe in the space ninjas way of thinking, then you have been wasting your time. and now we are nearing the end of U14, where the harlequin/jester Mirage has entered the stage, yet another reminder that the closed beta days of Warframe are long dead. by this point, you should have accepted the new slogan "suit to kill." however even so, people would still complain about Limbo's look and question DE's choice of design. at this point, it should be realized that DE is branching out and taking various concepts of our reality and applying them into the game. technically they've been doing so since U7. but if that is not enough for you to understand why these new frames are even a thing in this kind of game. lets step back from the actual game and look into the lore of the game, the lore of the Tenno and their frames. from the void, the Orokin made the Tenno into what they are. it is that technology by which they forged warframes. now lets look at the aesthetic side of it. technically even the closed beta frames look aesthetically strange for "warriors" tasked to defeating the greatest enemy that humanity has ever faced, the Sentients. in that sense, why is there even a visual finesse to even Excalibur, he first of them all? there is no given reason why each warframe has their specific appearance. and now we look into what it means to be a warrior. a warrior, often times, represents something, someone, or a faction. you can often tell what they represent based on looking at them, its how you can distinguish Ancient Roman armor of a given era to Renaissance armor. and more specifically, armor is often adorned with aesthetics based on tradition and representation. but more importantly: tradition. the Warframes appear as they do because of tradition. the tradition of the civilization they are based on provided various visual aesthetics. there is no real reason why all the warframes cant just look like variants of the first batch. its tradition and envisioning. clearly, the Orokin had a taste in the arts and wished to apply them to the warframes. and even if you cant look upon a harlequin or a shaman as a warrior, you must think back to the fact that it is merely an aesthetic representation. the abilities are also part of the representation. the aesthetic does not contribute to the usage of the frame, the theme does. and the Orokin clearly had a vast library of content that they could base off on. its basically saying that even as big a threat that the Sentients were, the Orokin had the solution, and the Orokin did not want to provide a solution based on efficiency and precision, they wanted to provide that solution based on visuals and appeal. thats what warframe has become. it is no longer a narrow stream of efficient warframes with various warrior-like uses. warframe is about the arts and the representation of various qualities of life and history and how life and history can be applied to the battlefield. TL;DR, warframe is about the arts and the representation of various qualities of life and history and how life and history can be applied to the battlefield. I dont think "suit to kill" was meant to be a new slogan, and ill go back to what Ive said before. You dont need to look like a Ninja to BE a Ninja. Just because the new frames dont look like they are ninjas dosnt mean they dont follow the Tenno way which is very close to what real Ninjas did back in the olden days. People are only getting mad because they dont look like what pop culture says Ninjas should look like. "Ninja's Play Free" is still a very appropriate Slogan, because that is still what the Tenno are meant to be. Just because they dont look like "pop cultures" ninjas dosnt me they arent ones. if the french were good for one thing, its ninja parkour so our little Vauban is still in his element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavelord Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 No. It has nothing to do with spontaneity ... spontaneity is the mother of inspiration What this is all about is putting good effort into making a really good product Remember what Michelangelo told Julius II over and over again? "Qunado e fatto!" ("When it is done") It is obvious that DE spent a great deal of time thinking about this character with regards to his abilities What is not at all obvious is whether they considered how he fit into the rest of the Warframe universe In any other game the look, the name, the glitz could work just fine In Warframe, he sticks out like a sore thumb The name is just the coup de grace of poor story telling I´m not as trouble by it´s name as I´m by his appearance, I think the game found its market in players that just want to have fun, shoot things, loot and explain everything with "space magic" and less with the rpg elements, we now have one pirate and two clown-esque tricksters and now a magician, and with each the game distance itself a little from the serious, sci-fi enviroment of its earlier trailers to a more action space fantasy. In DC we discussed the mechanics for a Sorcerer, so I´m a little shock we got a magician look, thats why i´ve never like when DESteve uses the word wacky to describe ideas for the game. As long as we don´t have to fight off slimes with cute faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerberus888 Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Limbo actually fits in perfectly to the warframe universe. His powers (from what we know from the Dev Stream) are not out of place and his theme is not out of place either. Think about the other frames. There isn't a set of restrictions and things you can't do. We have a frame that turn into puddles and create tentacles, we have a frame that creates random explosions with fire, we have a frame that uses portals and molecular energy, we even have a frame who uses light to blind his enemies. There really isn't a boundary that is too bizarre. I think that Limbo is a good name and a good frame. Probably my new favorite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letir Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Ninja's of Warframe was "pop cultural to the bone" in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) ... Perhaps you didn't see my earlier post where I provided the Latin definition of the word and how St. Aquinas' writings formed the basis for a Vatican epistle ... My objection isn't factually based - it is aimed at the lack of imagination Furthermore, if you (or anyone else) bothers to take the time to look at my prior threads and posts you will see that I am a staunch supporter of Warframe and a believer in those at DE It is precisely because I do support this game and believe in its creators and the unique process of them including the community in the ongoing development of it that I have felt it necessary to speak out when I see that a really amazing opportunity to create THE CHARACTER of the game was missed Most people feel that the story of Warframe is all about the Tenno ... No doubt there is no story listening to without them BUT there would be no story at all without The Void Consequently, a VoidFrame is potentially the most important character of the entire Tenno cast And instead of getting something fantastically different from the other Tenno, we get a huckster in a hat In the end, most who have posted in this thread are happy with what DE has put out and I have to admit that I was just expecting more because I am certain DE could have given us more ... But I ask each of you all this: What's wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Common sense cannot be invoked upon here. Well good luck with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavelord Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 You know, instead of broken recording "This Warframe doesn't belong" and ignoring literally every argument saying why it does, you should try explaining why it doesn't belong. It´s like bards in dungeons and dragons, your party is killing a dragon, the warriors slash with swords or arrows, wizards throw magic, and there in the background the bard is playing music or chanting poems, it looks out of place and sometimes silly. Early warframes look like enhance bionic armors, like the Guyver guy that was mentioned, to fight an evil empire and coldhearted merchants, now we fight them with pirates, and the carnival troupe (Loki, Mirage and seems like Limbo). They are out of place, my brother doesn´t play anymore almost because of that. I´m probably of a more serious mindset, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I´m not as trouble by it´s name as I´m by his appearance, I think the game found its market in players that just want to have fun, shoot things, loot and explain everything with "space magic" and less with the rpg elements, we now have one pirate and two clown-esque tricksters and now a magician, and with each the game distance itself a little from the serious, sci-fi enviroment of its earlier trailers to a more action space fantasy. In DC we discussed the mechanics for a Sorcerer, so I´m a little shock we got a magician look, thats why i´ve never like when DESteve uses the word wacky to describe ideas for the game. As long as we don´t have to fight off slimes with cute faces. I appreciate your point of view ... Clearly I am in a tiny minority of what Warframe could be, but I have read the same science fiction that Steve Sinclair has (at least what he has mentioned in a number of interviews) and I remain convinced that he has a real gem of a story which hopefully will get out And should that day happen then I won't be in the minority any longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarframeStigma Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I dont think "suit to kill" was meant to be a new slogan, and ill go back to what Ive said before. You dont need to look like a Ninja to BE a Ninja. Just because the new frames dont look like they are ninjas dosnt mean they dont follow the Tenno way which is very close to what real Ninjas did back in the olden days. People are only getting mad because they dont look like what pop culture says Ninjas should look like. "Ninja's Play Free" is still a very appropriate Slogan, because that is still what the Tenno are meant to be. Just because they dont look like "pop cultures" ninjas dosnt me they arent ones. if the french were good for one thing, its ninja parkour so our little Vauban is still in his element. yeah, but i still think of the whole ninja term as an analogy or a placeholder to explain this game to someone that doesnt get it. even so, i agree that the problem is pop culture's impression of ninjas. but because that is an issue that goes against the grain of the game, i think the slogan had to be dropped for good reason. and the thing is, as logically ninja-esque as the Tenno are, people fail to look at the Tenno and consequently look at the warframes themselves. the warframes are not ninjas, they are suits. even though the general player base can easily distinguish Tenno from warframe, they still feel as if the warframe is the Tenno because, tbh, that's all we have to go with on the tenno as playable characters. with that in mind and the issue of pop culture impressions, people have high expectations of the warframes to fit the ninja vibe, but thats where they fail miserably. thats the entire reason why the "ninjas play free" slogan doesnt work. from a technical perspective, it does work, but warframe isnt about the Tenno who are clearly ninja assassins in nature, at least not for we the players. to the average warframe player, warframe is about the actual suits and the characteristics of said suits. by that logic, the slogan doesnt apply because it does not describe the functional or aesthetic nature of the suits, except Ash. yes, the you dont have to look like a ninja to be a ninja, but there are players who think towards the contrary for some stupid reason. and they make up the bulk of the underappreciators of the newer frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyEnneract Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I appreciate your point of view ... Clearly I am in a tiny minority of what Warframe could be, but I have read the same science fiction that Steve Sinclair has (at least what he has mentioned in a number of interviews) and I remain convinced that he has a real gem of a story which hopefully will get out And should that day happen then I won't be in the minority any longer Judging a frame before even seeing the rest of its powers sure does sound like common sense. But having people like you around on the forums makes things entertaining, so I hope you stay near. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarframeStigma Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Judging a frame before even seeing the rest of its powers sure does sound like common sense. But having people like you around on the forums makes things entertaining, so I hope you stay near. i dont think that was his/her point though...i think he/she was referring to the aesthetic of Limbo; seeing as he could logically be a lore-heavy frame given that his powers are said to be akin to the void, why the given aesthetic? i think that's his argument, though the argument is valid, i personally like the way it looks. but seriously, even though it's visually appealing, you have to wonder: wth? but yes, i get where your coming from. we dont know the nature of this frame yet until tomorrow. but the thing is, based on what we already know about the frame(unless that whole void thing they were talking about in the Devstream wasnt literally referring to the actual void) it's visually unfitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGear Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 It´s like bards in dungeons and dragons, your party is killing a dragon, the warriors slash with swords or arrows, wizards throw magic, and there in the background the bard is playing music or chanting poems, it looks out of place and sometimes silly. Early warframes look like enhance bionic armors, like the Guyver guy that was mentioned, to fight an evil empire and coldhearted merchants, now we fight them with pirates, and the carnival troupe (Loki, Mirage and seems like Limbo). They are out of place, my brother doesn´t play anymore almost because of that. I´m probably of a more serious mindset, Loki was one of the original Warframes released though, so the fact that you describe him as one of the "Carnival Troupe" rather handily implies that said aesthetic has been in the game since the very beginning. If so, it's not really out of place if it was already there to begin with. Also, in fiction tuxedos and top hats can still be equated with action, like the elegant Gentleman/Phantom Thief archetype such as the pioneer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars%C3%A8ne_Lupin'>Arsene Lupin, who is portrayed as having top hat and suit much like what Limbo is trying to emulate, making him in fact more like a Ninja than the Paladin-esque Oberon. While I already like Limbo's theme and appearance as is, I think we should all wait for the actual full reveal with his top hat on to see just how his appearance is integrated into the Tenno theme. It's not like Warframe hasn't had its share of silly-looking heads though, like Saryn's bulbasaur head emulating a fashionista hairstyle, or Mag's Coil helmet looking like someone wearing headphones, or Vauban's Gambit giving him a beret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Judging a frame before even seeing the rest of its powers sure does sound like common sense. But having people like you around on the forums makes things entertaining, so I hope you stay near. Based upon what Scott said about one of the special abilities, Limbo will be a very cool character to play, but game play is where DE stands out (in addition to graphics and animation) So I don't feel at all hypocritical by saying that I WILL be playing this character and at the same time remain optimistic that an equally cool story will eventually emerge Edited October 24, 2014 by ElHefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavelord Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Common sense cannot be invoked upon here. It should, the depth and consistency of the lore they release depends on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theRCB Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Mad Hatter Frame Confirmed. Void = Wonderland :/ Also. I just want the hubs.. :,( Still my body is ready for update 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGear Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I also remember when Mirage was first revealed, people kept saying that Mirage is the harbinger of Warframe moving into a "sillier" direction. And yet when Mirage's quest finally came out, it turns out Mirage's lore was very much in line with Warframe's "dark" portrayal as it told the story of Mirage's last stand against the Sentients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I also remember when Mirage was first revealed, people kept saying that Mirage is the harbinger of Warframe moving into a "sillier" direction. And yet when Mirage's quest finally came out, it turns out Mirage's lore was very much in line with Warframe's "dark" portrayal as it told the story of Mirage's last stand against the Sentients. Also the tenno wearing that Mirage was a bit of a blood knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatchias Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Hall of Mirrored in the Megathread. That one makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavelord Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Loki was one of the original Warframes released though, so the fact that you describe him as one of the "Carnival Troupe" rather handily implies that said aesthetic has been in the game since the very beginning. If so, it's not really out of place if it was already there to begin with. Also, in fiction tuxedos and top hats can still be equated with action, like the elegant Gentleman/Phantom Thief archetype such as the pioneer Arsene Lupin, who is portrayed as having top hat and suit much like what Limbo is trying to emulate, making him in fact more like a Ninja than the Paladin-esque Oberon. While I already like Limbo's theme and appearance as is, I think we should all wait for the actual full reveal with his top hat on to see just how his appearance is integrated into the Tenno theme. It's not like Warframe hasn't had its share of silly-looking heads though, like Saryn's bulbasaur head emulating a fashionista hairstyle, or Mag's Coil helmet looking like someone wearing headphones, or Vauban's Gambit giving him a beret. I don´t defend the ninja theme in warframe designs, I don´t see them as ninjas, i think it was used as a popular reference, like the "urban ninja" on YT, I think DE has improved designing powers and i do think Limbo is gonna be fun to play, as i had with Mirage, I argue that Limbo design is much less discreet than the others and visually stands out a little odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealmDestroyer Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I want Warframe to keep its dark nature. I don't want it to become DARK AND EDGY though. A little silly stuff is welcome, but..the center of it all is.. The solar system is well messed up, and everything is at tension with eachother, usually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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