Lex Prime And Marelok

[Xhyros]

The Mareloc isn't really a sniper pistol. At 10 accuracy, you can't really get headshots at long distances. Hell, you can aim at the body's center and it'll miss. With 16 accuracy, the Lex Prime has perfect accuracy if you don't fire at max speed. But why does it matter if the Mareloc has about twice the damage anyway?

The solution? Aklex Prime. Double the dps of Lex Prime with probably even less downsides than the Aklex compared to the Lex with how the power creep goes. Chances are that its accuracy will also fall to 10, ruining its status as the true pocket sniper, but the coolness factor makes up for it.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Discussions about accuracy are headscratchers for me. When i first got Marelok, my aim was terrible, i was missing enemies 10 feet away. It seemed like a crappy way to compensate for the high damage. After a few missions, i got used to it and now i can snipe enemies across the stage.

What does this tell us? Can players intuitively compensate for bad accuracy? If we lower the Marelok's accuracy, wont I just get used to it again and we'll be back to square one? When will it stop, when the accuracy reaches 0?

And yes i know op isnt asking for acc nerf, its just food for thought

Accuracy represents how much the bullet will deviate from the center of your reticle in a random direction. A lower accuracy means the bullet will deviate at a greater angle, in a random direction. You can't compensate for randomness.

 

I would guess that you weren't compensating for the spread, but rather the position of the gun's barrel. Since Warframe is in 3rd person, the bullet comes out of the barrel of your gun's world model, rather than your face (like in 1st person shooters). This means that in close range, the bullet will be fired at an angle, in order to meet the center of your reticle, which can sometimes cause the bullet to miss. It's especially apparent in long guns, like the Lanka, which require you to aim far off to the right in order to hit something at point blank range.

[MechaTails]

The Mareloc isn't really a sniper pistol. At 10 accuracy, you can't really get headshots at long distances. Hell, you can aim at the body's center and it'll miss. With 16 accuracy, the Lex Prime has perfect accuracy if you don't fire at max speed. But why does it matter if the Mareloc has about twice the damage anyway?

The solution? Aklex Prime. Double the dps of Lex Prime with probably even less downsides than the Aklex compared to the Lex with how the power creep goes. Chances are that its accuracy will also fall to 10, ruining its status as the true pocket sniper, but the coolness factor makes up for it.

 

The thing with Marelok is you don't need headshots. I'm consistently OHKOing non-heavies with body shots even up to wave 30 of T4 missions.

 

And not every sidearm needs to have a dual version, but I guess DE needs to make money on them. Single Marelok and Lex Prime is fine, I don't know why players cant be happy using a powerful gun without immediately wanting two and painting it pink lol

 

 

Since Warframe is in 3rd person, the bullet comes out of the barrel of your gun's world model, rather than your face (like in 1st person shooters). This means that in close range, the bullet will be fired at an angle, in order to meet the center of your reticle, which can sometimes cause the bullet to miss. It's especially apparent in long guns, like the Lanka, which require you to aim far off to the right in order to hit something at point blank range.

 

Oh gawd, it's Drakgoon all over again lol

Edited September 15, 2014 by DarkTails

[RealPandemonium]

Lex (and its prime) aren't the best anything.  Its damage doesn't remotely compare to the Marelok.  Also, the Marelok is not accurate enough to snipe with.  A better comparison would be with the Seer.

[ashrah]

just dont nerf anything both wepons are ok

[notionphil]

There aren't enough variables to tweak to make two similar guns different without making one a straight upgrade to the other.

 

What really needs to happen is the Marelok needs a Trait like one of the following:

 

•     Blindfire: no reticule when aiming
•     Iron-sighted: larger 'cross hair' reticule with no discrete point of fire

From Balance 2.0 - The Cost Of Power

[GSDAkatsuki]

Holy S#&$, I'm just going through the thread to see how many people didn't read the OP. So many people don't know how to read apparently.

[MechaTails]

Holy S#&$, I'm just going through the thread to see how many people didn't read the OP. So many people don't know how to read apparently.

 

They read it, they're just responding to other people's posts because they aren't interested in the OP's suggestion. I guess lol

[Flackenstien]

I'd like to see the current Lex be renamed MK-1 Lex, and stay in the market for Credits.
Then, we can create a normal Lex with the Base Damage, Crit Chance/Damage of Lex Prime.

 

Following that, give Lex Prime about 100 Base Damage, 35~40% Crit Chance, and either keep 2.0x Crit Damage, or give it 2.5x.

Also, I'd personally like the Lex Prime to trade a little bit of its Fire Rate for a better Reload Speed. 

Some innate Punch Through, as others have said, would be nice. Even if it's only like 0.3M.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Flackenstien

[Seanjuju]

I don't understand this argument at all. Where is the comparison? If you were comparing two prime weapons then this might make sense but you're comparing clan tech to prime gear. The rarity argument just doesn't apply here. If you think marelok is too easy to get then lobby to have it moved down the research line but you can't force a comparison between two weapons in two entirely different systems. Its like making the argument that dread should be stronger than the paris prime. If you want a buff for Lex Prime then try different reasoning.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Seanjuju

[Flackenstien]

I don't understand this argument at all. Where is the comparison? 

We're comparing how a designated sniper sidearm is being outdone in that very field by a supposedly inaccurate "sawed off" Grineer lever action rifle. 

Lex just needs a few tweaks to bring it to a point where there is a reason to atleast switch between the two occasionally, if not let Lex Prime reign as a sniper sidearm.

[Arunafeltz]

just dont nerf anything both wepons are ok

No nerfs. Twin Marelok and AkLex Prime will just come along later and render these two obsolete and outdated. 

[X3Evanescence]

No nerfs. Twin Marelok and AkLex Prime will just come along later and render these two obsolete and outdated.

Don't forget Dex Lex.

[Seanjuju]

We're comparing how a designated sniper sidearm is being outdone in that very field by a supposedly inaccurate "sawed off" Grineer lever action rifle. 

Lex just needs a few tweaks to bring it to a point where there is a reason to atleast switch between the two occasionally, if not let Lex Prime reign as a sniper sidearm.

I looked and found no such description of the marelok in-game. It's true that Scott mentioned that the pair were inspired by traditions in westerns where shotguns were sawed off but he never said it would be inaccurate. Where is the evidence that Lex Prime and Marelok don't share the same field?

[SilverHazzes]

I don´t find any sense in this topic. From time to time topics like this one pop up complaining about the Lex Prime. But that´s not the point of the talk.

Marelok isn´t a sniper,you can snipe with it and the first bullet will allways land in the enemies head, you can do that with lots of weapons in this game so I assume you talk about it´s single shot power but out of that it doesn´t work like a sniper and it doesn´t have sniper drawbacks ore accuracy.

What´s the problem I ask? Lex Prime is powerful and it works very well on T4 without too much trouble if of course you know how to manage it´s way of function. 

Rarity doesn´t mean more power in Warframe, it just means rarity. Soma, Vectis, Akvastos, Kronen and such are very high tier weapons and you can get them from the market, being clan tech or prime doesn´t necessary make you OP or nothing like that. I won´t disscus about Mareloks power because it´s just what it is, one of those powerful weapons in a videogame and that isn´t anything bad. If you worry about power bring more sinergy to the table, it isn´t only damage the thing that makes you stand long runs, your capacity for making decissions and bringing the right configurations and loadout would push you further because at some point the endless mode will get rid of you and trust me that that endless mode is the only thing that makes the weapons fall of and that´s what it has to be looked into.

Because thing that enemys scale in power and damage but not us, if there was a kind of system that gave us some kind of extra power and potential depending on certain goals we can make during the progression of the mission we would have more chances to get into a type of game that doesn´t turn into radial blind spam, bastillee spam or desecrate spam when we get to higher levels.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I'd like to see the current Lex be renamed MK-1 Lex, and stay in the market for Credits.

Then, we can create a normal Lex with the Base Damage, Crit Chance/Damage of Lex Prime.

 

Following that, give Lex Prime about 100 Base Damage, 35~40% Crit Chance, and either keep 2.0x Crit Damage, or give it 2.5x.

Also, I'd personally like the Lex Prime to trade a little bit of its Fire Rate for a better Reload Speed. 

Some innate Punch Through, as others have said, would be nice. Even if it's only like 0.3M.

Power Creep much? Might I remind you that the current Lex, with around the same stats, used to be the best sniper in the game?

[Arabaxus]

Power Creep much? Might I remind you that the current Lex, with around the same stats, used to be the best sniper in the game?

 

God forbid new weapons are better than old weapons. It's this kind of stagnant mindset that prevents new weapons from being "relevant", see the complaints about Glaxion being garbage. 

 

If new weapons were not on par at the minimum with older gear, what incentive would there be to acquire them besides mastery fodder? If we want actual content in this game, with greater difficulty, greater weapons will come come to compliment. 

 

Things change, the metagame shifts, old weapons will not always be the best weapons. The only thing I can say to your opinion is what everyone seems to throw around when they are happy that someone else's favorite weapon is nerfed into the ground, adapt and deal with it.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

God forbid new weapons are better than old weapons. It's this kind of stagnant mindset that prevents new weapons from being "relevant", see the complaints about Glaxion being garbage. 

 

If new weapons were not on par at the minimum with older gear, what incentive would there be to acquire them besides mastery fodder? If we want actual content in this game, with greater difficulty, greater weapons will come come to compliment. 

 

Things change, the metagame shifts, old weapons will not always be the best weapons. The only thing I can say to your opinion is what everyone seems to throw around when they are happy that someone else's favorite weapon is nerfed into the ground, adapt and deal with it.

Well then the Lex should stay terrible so that a newer, better weapon can replace both the Lex Prime and the Marelok.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Tehnoobshow

[Arabaxus]

Well then the Lex should stay terrible so that a newer, better weapon can replace both the Lex Prime and the Marelok.

 

In time, if the community ever stops whining about power creep, a new weapon will come around. Lex is perfectly fine where it is. Lex Prime simply doesn't fit solely for the reason that Marelok is a more common, easily acquirable weapon but is better against ever single armor and flesh type in sustained DPS. That's not saying just because Lex Prime is a Prime that it should trump Marelok in every way, but there should be a reason to select one or the other. 

 

When you consider the fact that Lex Prime is Puncture, which should have universal advantages over Impact damage against Grineer, but Marelok still does greater sustained DPS, and both function exactly the same, what doesn't make sense is that a rarer weapon, in the similar niche of Marelok is simply outperformed in all aspects, besides magazine size and a slight accuracy differences at extreme ranges.

 

Regular Lex is a credit purchased weapon designed to be one of the first secondaries new players pick. Much like the Braton, it is bound, and justifiably so, to be outclassed down the line by better weapons. It's like asking a for the MK-1 weapons to be on par with their regular counterparts.

 

As sad as it may seem that the once "best sniper pistol" is no longer so, it only makes sense, because without stronger weapons, there cannot be more difficult missions and enemies, and the game simply remains in a stagnant position as it is currently, which is not healthy. 

 

You could argue for nerfing the Marelok, but buffing the Lex Prime improves the experience of players who may enjoy the weapon and does not have a negative impact or inhibits the experience of players who enjoy the Marelok. You simply gain more choices. If you nerf Marelok, you simply take away from the experience and relevance of the Marelok and the experience for Lex Prime users does not improve in any way, shape or form, because there are already secondaries that out-damage Marelok, and these blueprints are also available in the shop. 

 

What that leads to is the pushing of precision based secondaries into obscurity, much like Snipers because they simply cannot keep up with other weapons and do not have enough perks to justify selecting them over faster firing weapons. Bows, precision weapons done right, remain relevant because their damage output is comparable to that of automatics and has fantastic perks such as insane Critical Chance, ammunition economy, punch through, status, and accuracy. Marelok keeps up with a flexibility of Status Chance and precision with damage output that is still respectable, but Lex Prime has neither the damage output or status chance of Marelok, and is a rarer weapon.

 

So yes, the Lex should stay subjectively terrible due to its status as a shop credit weapon, much like the Braton or Lato, but Lex Prime ought to be brought up to par as its status as a Prime weapon that excels at almost nothing compared to the Marelok.

[Azawarau]

Lex (and its prime) aren't the best anything.  Its damage doesn't remotely compare to the Marelok.  Also, the Marelok is not accurate enough to snipe with.  A better comparison would be with the Seer.

I have 10 minutes in Conclave with rexsol that says otherwise.........

[Seanjuju]

In time, if the community ever stops whining about power creep, a new weapon will come around. Lex is perfectly fine where it is. Lex Prime simply doesn't fit solely for the reason that Marelok is a more common, easily acquirable weapon but is better against ever single armor and flesh type in sustained DPS. That's not saying just because Lex Prime is a Prime that it should trump Marelok in every way, but there should be a reason to select one or the other. 

 

When you consider the fact that Lex Prime is Puncture, which should have universal advantages over Impact damage against Grineer, but Marelok still does greater sustained DPS, and both function exactly the same, what doesn't make sense is that a rarer weapon, in the similar niche of Marelok is simply outperformed in all aspects, besides magazine size and a slight accuracy differences at extreme ranges.

 

Regular Lex is a credit purchased weapon designed to be one of the first secondaries new players pick. Much like the Braton, it is bound, and justifiably so, to be outclassed down the line by better weapons. It's like asking a for the MK-1 weapons to be on par with their regular counterparts.

 

As sad as it may seem that the once "best sniper pistol" is no longer so, it only makes sense, because without stronger weapons, there cannot be more difficult missions and enemies, and the game simply remains in a stagnant position as it is currently, which is not healthy. 

 

You could argue for nerfing the Marelok, but buffing the Lex Prime improves the experience of players who may enjoy the weapon and does not have a negative impact or inhibits the experience of players who enjoy the Marelok. You simply gain more choices. If you nerf Marelok, you simply take away from the experience and relevance of the Marelok and the experience for Lex Prime users does not improve in any way, shape or form, because there are already secondaries that out-damage Marelok, and these blueprints are also available in the shop. 

 

What that leads to is the pushing of precision based secondaries into obscurity, much like Snipers because they simply cannot keep up with other weapons and do not have enough perks to justify selecting them over faster firing weapons. Bows, precision weapons done right, remain relevant because their damage output is comparable to that of automatics and has fantastic perks such as insane Critical Chance, ammunition economy, punch through, status, and accuracy. Marelok keeps up with a flexibility of Status Chance and precision with damage output that is still respectable, but Lex Prime has neither the damage output or status chance of Marelok, and is a rarer weapon.

 

So yes, the Lex should stay subjectively terrible due to its status as a shop credit weapon, much like the Braton or Lato, but Lex Prime ought to be brought up to par as its status as a Prime weapon that excels at almost nothing compared to the Marelok.

1. Why?

2. Rarity has nothing to do with anything; especially when you're forcing a comparison between the clan tech system and prime gear system.

3. You never made an argument for why it should.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Seanjuju

[Arabaxus]

1. Why?

2. Rarity has nothing to do with anything; especially when you're forcing a comparison between the clan tech system and prime gear system.

3. You never made an argument for why it should.

 

1. Because Lex Prime is a Prime Component. Seeing that Prime weapons are arguably the most rare weapons compared to clan-tech weapons, they should at least be on-par. It's a fundamental rule of basically any MMO, the rarer weapons are generally stronger. In this case I do not even request stronger, I request them to be on par. 

 

2. You are simply wrong on this. If you have played any MMO outside of Warframe, or frankly any loot-based game, you should realize that the rarer weapons are usually better. Other than being common sense, without this factor, other than novelty, there would be no incentive to achieve the rarer item, alongside incentive being relevant to the time-investment vs. pay to skip model of free-to-play games, especially in Warframe.

 

3. I have made a simple argument that if you read the entirety of my post you would have understood that the key principle is rarity, that you may seem to ignore simply because you may not want to farm for a Lex Prime or for any other reason. The other way is, why should Marelok outclass Lex Prime in every damage type? Can you provide any concrete reason for why it should other than the fact it currently is? Mastery Rank is out of the question because there is no debate that Mastery Rank requirements need to be reworked for Prime weapons.

 

You can accuse me for being being a fanboy of Lex Prime all you want, but this is coming from a player with a Five Forma, Catalyzed Marelok. 

 

 

I've put this much time and effort into my weapon, and I would have no issue if this other weapon would be brought up to par with it, because I understand that buffing the Lex Prime will not affect my Marelok experience, other than my ego or superiority complex, and only benefit other players who may enjoy the Lex Prime, so I think that even with personal objections, this is a completely fair request.

 

So unless you can provide a solid reason as to why Lex Prime shouldn't be buffed, good day to you. Don't try to argue power creep because Lex Prime came after Marelok, Lex Prime in build 13.0, and Marelok in build 12.3.

[Arunafeltz]

Only reason I can see the Marelok being stronger than Lex Prime is the Mastery Rank requirement, but that's already reflected in the much higher damage per hit. Personally I'm not all that concerned about how the Lex Prime stands against the Marelok, but I'd really love Lex Prime to be really good at what it's supposed to be good at doing - crit headshots. Accuracy is there, long reload time and low magazine capacity needs to be managed with good aim to minimize wasted shots, crit multiplier rewards skill with high headshot+crit damage multipliers. Now all it needs is a very small buff to critical chance- I'm talking like 5%(for total 55% x 2-3 multishot)- to make at least half the shots be crits. Coin flipping still involved, but evened out by the multishots. Then we get a unique gun with its own role, sexy sounds and design. If this day ever comes, someone please hand me a box of tissues cause I'll be wet.

[Arabaxus]

http://strawpoll.me/2579031

 

Vote please so I can gather a forum community opinion.

[taiiat]

The Marelok doesn't need a damage nerf, it needs an accuracy nerf. It should not, under any circumstance be a sniper pistol. It should only be effective in shotgun range, as an alternative to the Brakk.

i'm actually kind've okay with that. having true downsides to balance out the Damage. Grinlok is still peanuts compared to Marelok for some reason, but that's another story.

 

just note that 'Accuracy' is a multitude of stats congealed together. so the number going down isn't specific enough.

Marelok needs more Spread, and it inherently needs to be less Accurate. so that it's Accuracy on the first shot is a bit meh (in other words, never shoots perfectly straight), and shooting quickly increasing Spread on that, where it'll start becoming like a Shotgun when firing that quickly.

 

While we're at it we should nerf the Brakk, Despair, Kunai and every other good weapon so we can make Lato feel viable in game.

Brakk is... acceptable as is. it's pretty meh outside of close range so it's definitely limited in how it can apply that immensely high 150 Damage.

Despair and Kunai are acceptable. Kunai feel slightly weak, but considering how easy they are to get and low Mastery Requirement, Et Cetera. Despair is acceptable, it's in the middle of the 'power band' of Weapons. it's not super awesome, nor is it bad. Despair kind've defeats the existence of Kunai though, as they're almost identical, just Despair is better. would be nice if they were different from one another.

 

if we lower the Marelok's accuracy, wont I just get used to it again and we'll be back to square one?

i touched on this a couple Quotes up.

 

Since Warframe is in 3rd person, the bullet comes out of the barrel of your gun's world model, rather than your face (like in 1st person shooters). This means that in close range, the bullet will be fired at an angle, in order to meet the center of your reticle, which can sometimes cause the bullet to miss. It's especially apparent in long guns, like the Lanka, which require you to aim far off to the right in order to hit something at point blank range.

only for Ballistic Weapons. Hitscan Weapons origin from the Camera, Ballistic ones from the end of the barrel (supposedly - sometimes it feels like further ahead than that).

 

God forbid new weapons are better than old weapons. It's this kind of stagnant mindset that prevents new weapons from being "relevant"

that doesn't make any sense. you're saying the newest thing always has to be the best?

 

and anyone that doesn't want the newest thing to be the best is 'stagnant'?

all Weapons would be relevant if new additions didn't outclass their predecessors. we're shooting our own feet, and then complaining someone else did it.

 

apparently.

 

 

-snip-

none of those options are the full story.

 

 

LexP could use some minor Tweaks, increasing the Crit Chance seems like a reasonable tweak to make. just increasing it slightly. other than that it's a very balanced Weapon.

LexP isn't really underpowered, but that slight tweak to increase reliability would be nice.

 

and to avoid reducing Marelok's Damage - though honestly it really should be lowered to be closer to the other Semi-Auto Pistols in the game - giving it sketchy Accuracy so that it's fine at Close Range, a little bit iffy at Medium Range, and Long Range like trying to roll a 20 and Crit that dragon so that your Dungeonmaster doesn't get a laugh at how hard he owned you.

would still be flexible in most situations then.

 

though honestly, i still think it's simpler to cut 35-40 Damage off of the Weapon. it'll still be at the top of the Archetype for Damage despite losing that much. because it has so much to start with.