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"rhinos Everywhere" Is A Symptom, Not The Problem


DivisionByZero
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Operation Gate Crash. Rhinos everywhere.

High-level areas. Rhinos everywhere.

Suggestions forum: "Nerf Rhino".

My suggestion: Rhino doesn't need a nerf. Rhino overuse is a symptom of severe game design issues.

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Issue #1: Excessive knockdowns

Knockdowns are way out of hand in the entire game. Every Grineer Heavy unit has them, plus Grineer Scorpions and Shield Lancers. Blast proc = knockdown. Infested Ancients = knockdown + pull. Knockdown every *#@^ing where.

Well, what's the solution? You could take Constitution or Handspring mods.... Handspring is incredibly rare though. You could take Fortitude and get knocked down 80% of the time instead of 100%. You could take Sure Footed, although that's rarer than Handspring and it's never dropped for me.

Despite what a lot of trolls say, dodging isn't a viable option. Warframe has no "double tap to dodge" like in some other FPS games. Warframes are simply unable to accelerate or change direction quickly enough to prevent a knockdown or even a pull. Half the time, the game won't even respond if you hammer your keyboard/controller to dodge. You could block, however that requires you to have your melee weapon out all the time or use Reflex Guard (RNG-dependent).

Your last option is to choose a Warframe with built-in anti-knockdown abilities. Currently, the only Warframes with abilities that prevent knockdown are:

-Trinity (ultimate ability prevents knockdowns and conditions)

-Oberon (immune to knockdown while standing on Hallowed Ground)

-Valkyr (ultimate ability makes you invulnerable)

-Rhino (Iron Skin prevents knockdowns and conditions)

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Issue #2: Abusive RNG status effects and damage through shields

Recent updates have continued to further break game balance with more shield-ignoring poison damage while doing nothing to fix bleed procs and other crap. If you're using one of the frames mentioned above, you can mostly ignore these effects. This doesn't mean that those frames are overpowered, it just means that the game is broken.

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Issue #3: Environment effects that diminish shields.

Almost every update since U10 has power creeped enemy damage up. The problem: Warframe shields are hard-capped through Redirection rank.

But it gets worse: Bad RNG on any map means that you have half shields for the entire instance. The recent Gate-Crash event can decrease your shields down to 20%. Going for corrupted mods and holding a Decaying key? Nearly as bad.

Just stop with the shield-reducing effects. It's a heavy-duty nerf bat in the face to every frame that isn't Rhino or Valkyr.

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Issue #4: Warframes are slow

Ever heard of Arcane Vanguard Helmets? They give a large movement buff with a minimal power decrease. They are also the main reason why stat changes on helmets were discontinued about half a year ago. (typical lazy non-solution, ignore the problem and make the game even more broken instead of balancing the helmets) The result is that older players can keep their stats and newer players get none.

(On an unrelated note, I mainly use Rhino Prime with an Arcane Vanguard Helmet, and I would be fine with decreasing the movement buff to 15% if it meant that helms with stats would return and be available to everyone in perpetuity. Yes, you heard me right, if it means that everyone will be able to enjoy helms with stats, I'm willing to take a significant nerf for balance purposes)

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So why Rhino?

Rhino has a good balance of offensive, defensive, and support abilities - no "garbage" skills.

-Trinity has low armor, average health/shields, and no offensive abilities. Enemies glitched into the wall? you're stuck. Trinity also keeps getting nerfed and no longer has proper invulnerability, so shield-diminishing effects can be problematic. Trinity also moves at normal (aka slow) speed.

-Oberon is very good with the recent buffs, however the problem with using Hallowed Ground defensively is that you have to stand in it. If you (or your team) are moving around quickly (see also: any mission except defense), you may as well bring Constitution or Handspring... or Rhino. Also note that Oberon has no protection against shield-diminishing effects. Oberon is also slow.

-Valkyr's invincibility scales to any level and it's easy to avoid taking damage due to enemies in range. However, it also locks you into using melee attacks only for its duration. Fighting against flying enemies? you're stuck. Valkyr is faster than average but slower than a properly geared Rhino.

Conclusion: of the frames that can negate these broken game mechanics, Rhino is the most balanced, mobile, and solid of them (except at ridiculously high levels where Valkyr might be superior)

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So: How to fix "Rhinos Everywhere"?

Fix the problems that force everyone to use Rhinos.

-Increase frames' base movement speed.

-Nerf or remove shield-ignoring damage and abusive status procs

-Nerf knockdowns. IMO, knockdowns and stuns in FPS or TPS games should be rare and recovery from knockdowns and stuns should be quick.

-Remove unavoidable and uncounterable shield-impairing effects. (An interesting variation could be enemies that can lob a cryo projectile that impairs your shields to half for a short amount of time).

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I believe things like status effects are fine the way they are, however when being knocked down if we could have a built in handspring mechanic that would be awesome. Like when you get knocked in the air you have to double tap back really fast to have a recovery otherwise you just get knocked on your butt. This would give the game a more "ninja" feel as well.

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One suggestion I have seen for dealing with knockdowns, is add a window AFTER, during which you can tap the roll button to perform a handspring animation, making skill a factor.

 

One idea I had for pulling Ancients is to not force a knockdown, but limit you to your sidearm/melee weapon while hooked. If you are running/gunning with your primary, you are still helpless, but otherwise you have a chance to snipe the Ancient with your secondary or launch a wall attack into it, maintaining flow of combat and giving secondary weapons a minor advantage to offset reduced firepower.

 

As for bleed/toxic procs, I would have both of them be unable to deal that final 2hp, with bleed spilling into shields and preventing recharge for a duration proportional to the damage (small, but very annoying), and have toxic do something to movement speed, as that would significantly hamper players vs Infested, making them more likely to perish without a 'cheap' death.

Edited by Kthal
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Yeah, I'm with vaugahn on this one, especially in relation to knockdowns.

I don't want them removed, rather I want a skill/reaction based counter to them.

 

You are correct in that rolling does not work, sliding does not work either.

The only sure fire way is "feinting" a movement than back the other way to throw the auto target off (edit: and some powers prevent knockdown during cast).

 

Rolling should avoid knockdowns, slides should go under ancient/scorpion hooks, etc, etc.

Edited by Egg_Chen
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(On an unrelated note, I mainly use Rhino Prime with an Arcane Vanguard Helmet, and I would be fine with decreasing the movement buff to 15% if it meant that helms with stats would return and be available to everyone in perpetuity. Yes, you heard me right, if it means that everyone will be able to enjoy helms with stats, I'm willing to take a significant nerf for balance purposes)

 

Sounds good, DE only nerfs your Arcane Vanguard Helmet and leaves the rest of ours alone then.

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What? Rhino? AH!

The event nerfed the usage of the abilities, and Rhino IS its abilities. Without Stomp or Iron Skin, Rhino is nothing. I soloed 15 runs with Valkyr without any problem :3

My Rhino build for the Ceres and Endurance runs is Iron skin only, and that's because it isn't affected by duration. Even when Iron skin is 50 points, it's still better than nothing.

So enjoy your 2 second hysteria :)

Edited by Archistopheles
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I heard power str,  duration and range will decrease along with hp and shield....  so i did not see reason to play with loki ember or valkyr, most frames are useless without range and duration and specially power str hurts if damage frame.

Because how most frames loose their offensive power without having extra defense i saw no reason to play other than rhino.

I would say 15 points were easy because iron skin only went down when using portal or hacking and too lazy to kill enemies before it.Kinda boring event overall.

edit:

Rhino is not problem, he is best balanced frame in the game. Maybe iron skin knock immunity only thing that needs nerf.

Did not take Valkyr cause thought that i would have only 20% of hp. + being full melee is something that i do once a month.

 

high level areas(not doing endless 1hour+ stuff): ember, nekros, valkyr(hysteria only to revire people), loki, frost,oberon,mirage

I don't take rhino because it will make first 50 minutes more boring and then super boring stomping 50m+ radius stomp spam to keep enemies under controll.

Roar build is only thing i like but.... mirage does it better, and roar is not needed before 1 hours so that makes it kinda well boring.

Edited by Agullimux
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I agree with the problems, but not the solutions. We should be approaching them from the other side and letting players intelligently counter these things instead of saying "too hard, pls remove"

he's not saying too hard please remove, he's say there's an over abundance of cheap shots that are indefensible.

 

missed one, mirage is semi resistant to KD's and pulls or totally immune with HoM up. depends on what the mobs target, aoes from heavies though negates that. loki and ash as well for the duration of their invisibility.

 

and those mechanics tend to force soloers into only a few frames vs higher tier content, KD/pull for a soloer is a very very bad thing.

 

as to it getting changed into something less cheesy and more fair? don't see that happening.

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I agree with the whole "Rhino is a symptom, not the problem" thing. We need mechanics that allow us to react to all these weapons given to the AI. Not band-aid mods where we pray to RNGesus to give us a "free pass" once in a while. Band-aid mods are unreliable at best and make players lazy. We need actual mechanics, counters, tools that we can consciously use. Make them require timing, make them difficult to master. But the ability, the power to counter these mechanics MUST BE in OUR hands. Not RNG, not mods, not numbers.

Edited by Marthrym
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he's not saying too hard please remove, he's say there's an over abundance of cheap shots that are indefensible.

 

missed one, mirage is semi resistant to KD's and pulls or totally immune with HoM up. depends on what the mobs target, aoes from heavies though negates that. loki and ash as well for the duration of their invisibility.

 

and those mechanics tend to force soloers into only a few frames vs higher tier content, KD/pull for a soloer is a very very bad thing.

 

as to it getting changed into something less cheesy and more fair? don't see that happening.

 

All of his suggestions were straight up "remove this mechanic"

 

Basically, instead of asking for knockdowns to be removed because we can't dodge, we should instead ask to be able to dodge. That would be more fun/fair/balanced. The same goes for all the other ones.

 

For status effects, I saw a suggestion about status build-up, where you had a little meter that filled up the longer you were being affected by the attack and when it reached full then you got procced. That would allow players to react and get away instead of just being insta-procced.

 

For the environmental effects, restrict them to certain missions. That's the easiest fix there. Environmental effects are good in theory, but the randomness with which they're applied is the problem.

 

For the frames being slow...well, that's entirely subjective. They don't really feel slow to me. However, better parkour and more movement options could make us feel "faster".

 

There's no need to remove difficulty, just make it actually difficult.

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I agree with OP that knockdown are kind of out of control.  Part of the problem is that unlike a lot of games, Warframe doesn't give you a "grace period" when you get controlled. The enemies get it, so you (usually) can't just keep using the same kind of crowd control on them over and over and expect it to work, but players do not.  So you have hordes of enemies, most of them with poor telegraphs, and knockdowns everywhere, with no grace period against them if you get hit.  Warframe plays very differently when you're in a boss fight or fighting a single elite goon compared to when you're facing a wall of 20 guys.

 

Incidentally this game does have a dedicated control binding for "dodge".  By default it's bound to a single tap of your Shift key. I found it more useful when bound to Alt so that there was no chance of the game getting confused between dodging and sprinting. It does feel like dodging could use some buffs since it doesn't always work.

 

I blame a lot of Rhino's popularity on the fact that he's easy to get, he appeals to a lot of people's lizard brain as "the big guy", and too many people base their entire gameplay strategy on low level missions where Iron Skin has a level of usefulness completely out of line with what it does later on.

 

 

My Rhino build for the Ceres and Endurance runs is Iron skin only, and that's because it isn't affected by duration. Even when Iron skin is 50 points, it's still better than nothing.

 

I was going to go into a detailed explanation of why you were wrong, but I'm starting to believe that the fewer people who really understand the mechanics of the game, the longer it takes DE to find and nerf the things that work.  Sooo...    You're wrong. Valkyr is FAR more useful in this event. Good luck learning why.  :D

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I agree with your thoughts on why everybody uses rhino, but I still think reduced shields is a great (and cheap) way to force some meaningfulness into combat. If you're not rhino, you actually might have a great fresh experience because after all those missions you're vulnerable again and have to advance in a different pace.

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I wish we didn't loose control when we got grappled. We're space ninjas, right? So let us react. If we get grabbed, let us whip out our secondaries (Enter a psuedo-downed state, even, so that that Provoked mod would have more usefulness) and either blast the enemy, or blast the grapple itself.

 

Example: I get hit with a grapple. I fall on my butt as the enemy pulls me in, but i'm drawing my side-arm as he does. Do I shoot the enemies advancing on me, the grappler himself, or just the grapple?

You still get pulled to the target, but the flow of the game is less broken as you retain some control. A bit of a sideways patch, rather than a fix, but I didn't want to make a whole new thread.

 

tl;dr: I fully support the topic of the thread.

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I think its more like

 

Issue 1: Not moving enough

 

Most KDs are entirely avoidable

 

Especially ancients

 

Procs only work if they land on you and between god powers and mobility that shouldnt happen often. People bring up grineer with this but their vdamage is relatively low so thier bleed procs dont hurt much at all

 

Shields are basically useless at this point and really should be worked on. at the same time there are enough ways to avoid procs that bypass shields that its not really a gigantic issue that procs pass shields as much as damage eats through shields too easily

 

The only frames too slow to avoid fire at close ranges are Rhino, Frost, and saryn

 

The rest when mobile shuld be able to avoid fire without using powers

Edited by Azawarau
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Completely agree, +1. 

 

I'm a zealous Loki player, but I can't deny that Rhino has been and remains the most balanced frame in the game (until you stick Arcane Vanguard on him), in addition to Loki (of course). And I hate Rhino. I hate using him, I don't like his looks, I can't make him pretty. He is my least favorite, but mechanically he has always worked without being ridiculous. All of his powers are useful.

 

So, don't hate the player (but do, anyway), hate the game.

 

Our AI needs an overhaul. They need to stop relying on relentless CC in the form of knockdown and "git gud". They need to be challenging rather than "arbitrarily difficult" (popular words being thrown around gaming these days). 

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