"rhinos Everywhere" Is A Symptom, Not The Problem

[inappropriatename5818]

I agree with all of this, specially on the knockdown part. I HATE when I keep getting bumped around by rollers and then chain hooked by scorpions, it's just not fun and everytime you get hooked all you think is "OH MY GOOOOD, just **** let me go already!".   

It's unavoidable, frustrating as hell and it happens way too much. The best of them are the new infested, as soon as you touch the ground BOOM a disrupter just hooked you, what can you do? Nothing, you can prepare your energy restores because getting disrupted is unavoidable.   

Then there are the exploding runners, those can go suck a lemon, I want to throw my monitor out the window every time they cancel my reload when they explode stagger me from 5 meters away.   

 

I main Nova, so I have my enemies mostly under control, but I still keep getting tossed around all the time, I run Constitution and it's till annoying as all hell and I can't even... actually, I can, but I don't want to imagine how it would be without molecular prime...

[Grievous10]

I would like to see Fortitude's knockdown resistance increased to 40% so it stacks with Sure Footed to a full 100%. If you sacrifice 2 slots for knockdown resistance you should get the full 100% and don't care about knockdowns ever.

Also while we are at it why does Warm Coat not have 100% cold resistance to ice levels? O_O

[Lost_Cartographer]

Sounds like the real problem is that hand spring, constitution, fortitude, and sure footed need to be more common, not that KDs are too common.  In my experience, they're all entirely avoidable.  Most of the complaints I see in this thread seem to stem from the same common problem of thinking combat should be about simply being shot at and shooting back while trusting that their shield MUST go down first before their health does.

 

I find that all of these shield avoidances and CC going around enriches the game play.  Stacking redirection, vitality, and vigor isn't going to always be the winning solution if you're horrible at avoiding miter disks (and you can ADS side step those at 5m out.)  All of those power mods won't do you any good if you're constantly eating bombard missiles.  The various forms of attacks the enemy brings to the fight are here to make us reconsider the importance of all of those utility mods (even if some of them are very rare.) While the idea of hitting the right key the moment we get knocked down sounds more proper to Warframe, it doesn't exactly cause One to pause for a moment and reconsider the anti-KD mods.    I think that's the thing DE is trying to avoid.  Break up the cookie cutter builds be introducing problems.  If people are resistant to making room for a problem solver mod, that's on them, not on the developers.

 

But again... they're all stupid rare.

[KirukaChan]

I considered running Rhino for the later parts of the event (had started the event as Excalibro, but wanted to switch off of him once the Warframe ability nerfs started to kick in), but opted for Valkyr instead. Despite the in-event nerfs to shields, health, and abilities, my 1200 armor was still untouched, and I could still get a bit of use out of Rip Line for scaling walls. Other than that, I just went for mobility mods and Handspring, as well as a Rejuvenation aura since I lacked Hysteria for health recovery. Didn't go down once the entire time. Didn't have a full squad, either, just ran it with one friend.

 

Really, it's not the shield/health loss that made Rhino desirable for Gate Crash, it was the ability nerf. Since they got hit in duration, range, AND power, only a select few abilities would get much of any use at all at that point (Iron Skin being one of them). I will say that it was a new, interesting experience, though. Really made me think about my frame and its build, not to mention my weapons (since there were Infested and Grineer enemies in the same maps).

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Nothing like being grappled by an Ancient Disruptor then being sucker-punched for all your energy to add insult to injury. I agree with the knockdown being out of control.

[merryfistmas]

The problem isn't necessecarily that CC is too difficult to avoid. About a year ago, scorpions' harpoons were virtually unavoidable and being blown up by a runner on a defense mission meant being chain CC'd for minutes on end until the infested finally wittled the pod's health down. The problem is that being CC'd, regardless of how easy or difficult it is to avoid, takes all control away from the player. Rather than giving enemies tools to deal with the bullS#&$ that is warframe powers, DE has allowed enemies to prevent us from using those powers at all, and by the same token granted warframes abilities so powerful, they minimize any threat that enemies pose by annihilating them before they can get near enough to use their CC.

 

This is why there are people complaining that bleed damage and CC are too difficult to deal with while others say that warframe powers trivialize gameplay, both enemies and players simply have too much power; neither side can interact with the other in a way that promotes interesting or skillful playing. Every nerf, every change in the way enemies work has simply been a band-aid fix.

 

 

A lot of this applies to warframe as well.

 

In case you don't want to watch the points are

 

- AI is terrible

- The worlds are beautiful but there's no reason to explore them

- When people say "this boss is difficult" it means, "they have a lot of health."

Edited September 20, 2014 by merryfistmas

[Wurdyburd]

This is why there are people complaining that bleed damage and CC are too difficult to deal with while others say that warframe powers trivialize gameplay, both enemies and players simply have too much power; neither side can interact with the other in a way that promotes interesting or skillful playing. Every nerf, every change in the way enemies work has simply been a band-aid fix.

 

 

A lot of this applies to warframe as well.

 

In case you don't want to watch the points are

 

- AI is terrible

- The worlds are beautiful but there's no reason to explore them

- When people say "this boss is difficult" it means, "they have a lot of health."

 

I think the other problem is that all the enemy abilities, like bleed, poison, knockdown, grappling, stunning, etc, along with our own powers, are so tediously black and white. To run a simple scenario:

Enemy appears:

Check > do we have energy, yes, cast ability, enemy dies, finish scenario

or > enemy has a chance to use ability, uses ability, player is rendered worthless for anywhere from 3-6 seconds.

 

Unless we're doing really high level content, there isn't any doubt that our super[over]powered frames won't vaporize the opposition at a tap of a number key, which means that there's nothing that enemies can do to prevent their rather rapid demise. Similarly, because enemy abilities and routing is so ruddy hard to read at times, there's not a lot you can do to predict some of them from happening, and not a lot you can do once it has happened.

Every scenario regarding the common enemy abilities in this game is set in a binary of [Did you get hit] vs [Did you not]. There's no options in between there, except for maybe blocking with melee, but that's honestly expecting a lot.

A) the player is facing the enemy, which means every potential enemy who has such abilities,

B) that you have melee equipped,

C) that you're not currently attacking, and

D) you're holding the parry button.

Therefore: are you doing literally nothing else but waiting to be attacked? Good, you've got a handle on things.

 

Regarding the video:

-'The worlds are beautiful' line: this is part of why I appreciate the caches in the Gate Crash event. It gets the community to explore places that they sped through before, because there's literally no reason to go to those places.

-When people say "this boss is difficult: it means "they have a lot of health." "They have multiple phases of invulnerability and you can do nothing else but stand there and wait until they open up again."

Edited September 20, 2014 by Wurdyburd

[DSMK2]

Regarding knockdowns, I made a thread on alleviating the standard knockdown status that's seen in other games:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/311232-movement-while-knocked-down/

 

... Which I intend on fleshing out later. The problem I find with knockdowns is that it removes player control in a generic manner, which I'd say is found as a standard status effect in RPGs which artifically stops you from attacking. All of the status effects (the player disabling ones) need to have some form of interactivity to lessen their loss of control.

 

This isn't an RPG, give us more control over status effects.

 

---

 

The enemy level scaling in Warframe is the other issue, (how does this even fit into canon!) enemies somehow become much more powerful than Warframes, in both duration and weapon power. This thread comes to mind:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238581-forget-better-ai-we-need-better-dumb-enemies/

 

Higher difficulties should spawn more enemies with tools to deal with Warframes, instead of hard scaling enemies; something that has the qualities of a boss and the power of a mook. Imagine Sargas Ruk (minus the powerful attacks) as a mook you'd normally run into, shoot the shoulder device to disable his shields, leaving the mook vunerable to damage.

 

---

 

Though... Iron skin is basically invinciblity against low level content. Hm. I guess this shows that abilities for all Warframes really need to be reworked in general, but I have no specific thoughts on that.

[Sizer]

Le sigh.

 

Disclaimer: The following is entirely anecdotal.

 

1) Rhinos and KD

 

The Rhino is often used as a crutch. Events like this/other high effective dps content tend to prove that, at least in my experience, where high mastery rank Rhino P. players go out like a light when Iron Skin fails after a half dozen seconds. A little time in the light frames provides all the hands on experience you need to avoid knockdowns, or recover from them effectively. Sure, you may take a little damage when you screw up and get KD'd, but unless you've put yourself into a really bad spot - which is your own fault - you'll be just fine. And let me make this perfectly clear - getting KD'd by a Heavy Gunner or dragged by an Ancient is entirely your fault, maybe 90% of the time. They telegraph SO HARD that getting out of the way or eliminating them before they finish the animation is trivial. If you get caught by one that's out of your field of view - that sucks, but take your licks. If you get caught by one you can see, that's entirely on you. I play almost exclusively in light frames. For this specific event, the heaviest I rolled out was my armor Oberon. I was taken out once by the sniper boss on Phobos Endurance, and killed her on the ground while being rezzed. I spent most of the event in a Nova, Mirage, or Ember P. for funsies. None of them were ever in danger, and none of it was particularly stressful.   

 

2) Damage through shields, Status Effects

 

So the Mutalist Osprey and its crawler bomb introduced more prevelant toxin damage. For the first time in months, I felt threatened during Infestation runs. Ditto for the lifedrain ancient and runner types. So cry me a bloody river about how it's not fair that it ignores shield damage. How about you get a little situational awareness and eliminate them before they charge, or if they do, evac and then eliminate? Pardon DE for not wanting everything to be a blue milk run, and asking you to adapt to new challenges. And start carying health restores if it annoys you that much.

 

3) Shield drain

 

Read 2, Same jist. Game Mechanic that's supposed to make my life difficult for a high reward makes my life difficult. Seriously, cry some more. I run shield tanked frames all the time in shield draining Nightmares and ODx Vault runs. Hell, I bring frames with nearly no HP with the Decaying Key, just for the extra challenge.

 

4) Eh, I kind of agree somewhat here, but then again I run light frames and the Slowberon is slow. But then I remember I mostly play light frames. Outrunning a charging Rhino is funny.

 

I will agree with you that the Rhino is the most 'well rounded' of the frames, however, that itself leaves it unable to handle situations of extreme paradigm shifts, where specialized frames will just ruin the Rhino by comparison. Look at the Solar Rail Conflicts as an easy example as Iron Skin fails against high alpha weaponry and Rhino players wonder why they're getting rocked. Second Disclaimer: I pick a random light frame when playing SRC's and refrain from power use. Just me and my trusty rifles at play. Cover+Accuracy go a long way.

 

I guess my message?

 

To Rhino Players: Grow up and pick a big boy frame.

To OP: Quit QQing about game mechanics designed to give you a hard time giving you a hard time. Bring counters, or heck, bring things that AREN'T hard counters and succeed anyway.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Sizer

[Aure7]

Le sigh.

 

Disclaimer: The following is entirely anecdotal.

 

1) Rhinos and KD

 

The Rhino is often used as a crutch. Events like this/other high effective dps content tend to prove that, at least in my experience, where high mastery rank Rhino P. players go out like a light when Iron Skin fails after a half dozen seconds. A little time in the light frames provides all the hands on experience you need to avoid knockdowns, or recover from them effectively. Sure, you may take a little damage when you screw up and get KD'd, but unless you've put yourself into a really bad spot - which is your own fault - you'll be just fine. And let me make this perfectly clear - getting KD'd by a Heavy Gunner or dragged by an Ancient is entirely your fault, maybe 90% of the time. They telegraph SO HARD that getting out of the way or eliminating them before they finish the animation is trivial. If you get caught by one that's out of your field of view - that sucks, but take your licks. If you get caught by one you can see, that's entirely on you. I play almost exclusively in light frames. For this specific event, the heaviest I rolled out was my armor Oberon. I was taken out once by the sniper boss on Phobos Endurance, and killed her on the ground while being rezzed. I spent most of the event in a Nova, Mirage, or Ember P. for funsies. None of them were ever in danger, and none of it was particularly stressful.   

 

2) Damage through shields, Status Effects

 

So the Mutalist Osprey and its crawler bomb introduced more prevelant toxin damage. For the first time in months, I felt threatened during Infestation runs. Ditto for the lifedrain ancient and runner types. So cry me a bloody river about how it's not fair that it ignores shield damage. How about you get a little situational awareness and eliminate them before they charge, or if they do, evac and then eliminate? Pardon DE for not wanting everything to be a blue milk run, and asking you to adapt to new challenges. And start carying health restores if it annoys you that much.

 

3) Shield drain

 

Read 2, Same jist. Game Mechanic that's supposed to make my life difficult for a high reward makes my life difficult. Seriously, cry some more. I run shield tanked frames all the time in shield draining Nightmares and ODx Vault runs. Hell, I bring frames with nearly no HP with the Decaying Key, just for the extra challenge.

 

4) Eh, I kind of agree somewhat here, but then again I run light frames and the Slowberon is slow. But then I remember I mostly play light frames. Outrunning a charging Rhino is funny.

 

I will agree with you that the Rhino is the most 'well rounded' of the frames, however, that itself leaves it unable to handle situations of extreme paradigm shifts, where specialized frames will just ruin the Rhino by comparison. Look at the Solar Rail Conflicts as an easy example as Iron Skin fails against high alpha weaponry and Rhino players wonder why they're getting rocked. Second Disclaimer: I pick a random light frame when playing SRC's and refrain from power use. Just me and my trusty rifles at play. Cover+Accuracy go a long way.

 

I guess my message?

 

To Rhino Players: Grow up and pick a big boy frame.

To OP: Quit QQing about game mechanics designed to give you a hard time giving you a hard time. Bring counters, or heck, bring things that AREN'T hard counters and succeed anyway.

dis guy is rite u knw.

[Naftal]

Despite what a lot of trolls say, dodging isn't a viable option. Warframe has no "double tap to dodge" like in some other FPS games.

Despite what the noobs say, it is a perfectly viable option. I thought Warframe had "double tap to roll" on by default. You should really learn to roll and especially to spin attack. Dodging knockdowns in warframe is easy.

 

I don't think Rhinos everywhere is a symptom of the game being too hard (too many knockdowns for example) but rather a symptom of majority of players being either too bad or too lazy to play anything else.

[Keiiken]

Despite what the noobs say, it (dodging) is a perfectly viable option. I thought Warframe had "double tap to roll" on by default. You should really learn to roll and especially to spin attack. Dodging knockdowns in warframe is easy.

 

I don't think Rhinos everywhere is a symptom of the game being too hard (too many knockdowns for example) but rather a symptom of majority of players being either too bad or too lazy to play anything else.

 

Agreed. Actually I don't think you have to double tap, I just tap shift on my keyboard all the time to roll.

I played the event as Loki. Max duration Invis towards the end gave me about three seconds, Max range disarm was reduced to just more than the range of my orthos. I still survived, got knocked down once or twice, only downed once because of my own miscalculation trying to pick up a teammate who was in a bad spot so I should have taken out the aggro first. Playing challenging content without using Rhino/Boltor is a choice IMHO.

I can handle T4 and other high level content with ANY frame I have and I have them all, not bragging because I know I am far from the most über Tenno (myself and my clan do not show up in the top of any leaderboards at all) just saying it can be done.

[pavlo555]

 Like when you get knocked in the air you have to double tap back really fast to have a recovery... This would give the game a more "ninja" feel as well.

Well , i do aim+back+shift -> ultraninja and can finely dodge with this animation . And to OPandCo. : If you cant dodge those knockdowns , you are not a ninja . If you are not a ninja , Delete WF :b srsly a lot of ppl crying around about knockdowns .

[Lukap99]

tl;dr game needs better dodging.

Knockdowns are cheap because handspring is still not a mechanic rather tan mod.
Rhino has no garbage skills.

OP hates toxic b/c he can't git gud. How embarrassing :^) [obvious yoke is obvious, don't get your jimbobs in a knot u guise]

[Lynxh]

All of his suggestions were straight up "remove this mechanic"

 

Basically, instead of asking for knockdowns to be removed because we can't dodge, we should instead ask to be able to dodge. That would be more fun/fair/balanced. The same goes for all the other ones.

 

For status effects, I saw a suggestion about status build-up, where you had a little meter that filled up the longer you were being affected by the attack and when it reached full then you got procced. That would allow players to react and get away instead of just being insta-procced.

 

For the environmental effects, restrict them to certain missions. That's the easiest fix there. Environmental effects are good in theory, but the randomness with which they're applied is the problem.

 

For the frames being slow...well, that's entirely subjective. They don't really feel slow to me. However, better parkour and more movement options could make us feel "faster".

 

There's no need to remove difficulty, just make it actually difficult.

 

I don't agree with ya TC, but more so with this person ^

(full disclosure. I don't feel that knockdowns are a problem, and I don't use frames to avoid them. But I do think a dodge mechanic would be a wonderful addition)

 

Well, except for the proc alternative that is being suggested, unless we change the way we proc them at the same time. Even then, I'm actually still more in favor of keeping it random, but should DE make a change then that is my preferred change.

 

Edit: Added "Full disclosure"

Edited September 20, 2014 by Lynxh

[Naftal]

Can someone explain to me what kind of dodge mechanic DE should add and also, explain how the current mechanics for dodging are not enough.

[vaugahn]

Can someone explain to me what kind of dodge mechanic DE should add and also, explain how the current mechanics for dodging are not enough.

 

Just tighten up the rolls. They're slow, they're a little awkward to aim, and they should provide a short I-frame in the middle. 

[Naftal]

Just tighten up the rolls. They're slow, they're a little awkward to aim, and they should provide a short I-frame in the middle. 

So why not use spin attacks or just plain sliding instead? They're both faster than rolling and can move you further than the fixed rolling distance. Spin attacks have cc immunity and so do a lot of other melee attacks which can be used to counter the knockdowns.

 

Rolling isn't really needed for other than getting rid of leechs or seeker balls.

[vaugahn]

So why not use spin attacks or just plain sliding instead? They're both faster than rolling and can move you further than the fixed rolling distance. Spin attacks have cc immunity and so do a lot of other melee attacks which can be used to counter the knockdowns.

 

Rolling isn't really needed for other than getting rid of leechs or seeker balls.

 

Spin attacks aren't a dodge, they're general mobility. They fling you a lot further than a dodge should. Sliding is extremely directional and requires a short run-up, which makes it not very useful as a dodge move. 

[Naftal]

Spin attacks aren't a dodge, they're general mobility. They fling you a lot further than a dodge should. Sliding is extremely directional and requires a short run-up, which makes it not very useful as a dodge move. 

Not all spin attacks are the same. Most spin attacks done along the ground won't move you that much.

 

The "short run-up" sliding requires takes like one millisecond and doesn't require any room. It's much faster done than rolling.

[vaugahn]

Not all spin attacks are the same. Most spin attacks done along the ground won't move you that much.

 

The "short run-up" sliding requires takes like one millisecond and doesn't require any room. It's much faster done than rolling.

 

And that's my point, rolling should be faster. If we could actually dodge out of the way of telegraphed attacks they would feel less cheap.

[Naftal]

And that's my point, rolling should be faster. If we could actually dodge out of the way of telegraphed attacks they would feel less cheap.

Why do you insist on dodging by rolling? Sliding and spin attacks already allow you to dodge anything.

[vaugahn]

Why do you insist on dodging by rolling? Sliding and spin attacks already allow you to dodge anything.

 

No, they don't. Sliding doesn't give CC immunity, and enemy CC can hit you faster than you can trigger a spin attack. If there was a single button I could press that would automatically spin attack me then we'd be talking, but I'm not running any macros so I don't have that. I'm really not quite sure what you're arguing for here, is there any reason why roll shouldn't be useful as a dodge move? 

[Naftal]

No, they don't. Sliding doesn't give CC immunity, and enemy CC can hit you faster than you can trigger a spin attack. If there was a single button I could press that would automatically spin attack me then we'd be talking, but I'm not running any macros so I don't have that. I'm really not quite sure what you're arguing for here, is there any reason why roll shouldn't be useful as a dodge move? 

Sliding doesn't need a CC immunity. In the situations where you need that you can do spin attack. If you think spin attack is somehow slow to do, I don't know what to say. I have no problems executing it just as easy with multiple buttons as doing a roll with just one button.

 

No, there is no reason why roll shouldn't be as useful as a dodge move, but you're arguing the current moves don't work for dodging while they are perfect for it.

 

We really need some mission types that force people to learn mobility and parkouring...

[vaugahn]

Sliding doesn't need a CC immunity. In the situations where you need that you can do spin attack. If you think spin attack is somehow slow to do, I don't know what to say. I have no problems executing it just as easy with multiple buttons as doing a roll with just one button.

 

No, there is no reason why roll shouldn't be as useful as a dodge move, but you're arguing the current moves don't work for dodging while they are perfect for it.

 

We really need some mission types that force people to learn mobility and parkouring...

 

No, current moves are not perfect. That's ridiculous to even say. This game is unfinished.

 

You're right that sliding doesn't need CC immunity, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about making a dodge actually a dodge. Spin attacks should not be our dodge move. They don't have the correct functionality for that. We have a roll that should be our dodge move, but nobody uses it because it doesn't work right. That should be fixed.