Do Something About Serration And Hornet Strike.

[VampirePirate]

The Original Post, i.e. OP, suggests to nerf serration then adjust everything else.  Then DE will have to buff the players back up to where they were before the suggested changes because people enjoy playing powerful characters.  People enjoy wrecking hordes of mooks and Warframe has found success with this.  That is a key point here.  People are asking DE to turn it's back on it's success.  They are also asking DE to make Warframe less unique.  Those are terrible suggestions. 

 

What is more, people are free to implement the OP themselves.  They can take off serration or use a low rank serration.  They can load out weapons and Warframes however they want and then play whatever level they feel comfortable playing with their favorite load out.  It does not require DE to spend any money.  It's free.

 

What is more, they can form their own clans and use the conclave rating system to form parties as they desire.  If the conclave rating system is not adequate, they could ask DE to make it so, after all, that is a natural use of the conclave system.  It was even used as such in an event.  In fact, a discussion on the proper conclave rating of serration and other mods would be a much more productive discussion as it is an attempt to objectify an important issue and give players choice. 

 

Warframe Defense mods are the inverse of weapon damage mods.  Why the issue with Serration and not Redirection for instance?  People are free to not use defense mods and no one complains about it like people complain about Serration.

 

Like the rest of the calls to nerf on this forum, this OP does not present a compelling business plan but asks DE to turn it's back on it's success and uniqueness.  For what?  For "balance"?  "Balance" is a farce.  This OP is not attempting to convey to DE a particular play style that the author, and other like minded individuals, would enjoy.  It's not suggesting incorporating another player base into the game along side what it already has, so much as it asks DE to waste money rewritting a successful game with old ideas found in it's competitors and infuriating a large portion of it's current player base.

 

A better, because non-destructive and non-devisive and empowering, suggestion would be to buff the crappy mods like magazine size, rate of fire, and reload speed, to the same effect on Damage Per Second as damage mods.  Then, the weapon mods all yield the same results and people choose them as a matter of taste, as choice.  Matter of taste cannot be emphasized enough here.  It is the opposite of what the OP suggests, which is to ignore other people's tastes and just impose on them this one arbitrary choice.

 

That serration is theoretically required at some level is immaterial.  Everything has to be adjusted to multiple competing tastes.   And that is the truly important issue, how to achieve revenue streams from multiple competing tastes.  Nerfing serration does not achieve a higher goal.  It's an expense not worth making.

Thank you.  Could not have said it better.

 

edit: missing a word lol

Edited October 28, 2014 by VampirePirate

[Judopunch]

I feel like you've said the "no one ever complained about being to powerful in a video game ever" line before somewhere on the forums and I remember how wrong you were. Especially considering to many people the fun comes from challenge and not easy mode 100% of the time. Its also a common complaint that WF is too easy without nerfing yourself on the forums.

Easy mode is fun in short bursts.

Either way at least OP has an argument as to why they think this is a good idea. What compelling supporting argument do you have?

Other then "because no".

 

Its also interesting to note that I normally don't agree with many of Innocent_flowers threads.

In this case I happen to agree. I've been thinking the same thing for a while. The only compelling argument against this that I've seen is born of a fear of changing mechanics and a little bit of rebalancing that will needed in regard to some dmg mods.

You will still be able to go for absurdly long survivals without pure dmg mods and you will still be OP. In anycase you can just head on down to 90% of the starchart and feel like a god regardless of setup.

With damage 2.0 there is a lot of room for synergistic effects that could be greatly expanded.

 

Though it could be a 'choice' to focus on 'damage', I wouldn't argue for more variaty in the status chances, that if properly moded would compete with streight 'damage'.

 

And thats what I think the heart of the OP's suggestion is. Serration is so good that its mandatory. Would some other type of balancing within the current system create more varied and unique gameplay? Possibly.

[Innocent_Flower]

Why are you guys bringing up business plans? Do elaborate how the current broken system makes money? 

 

I mean; Yeah, there's that guy who'l pay 200 plat for a maxed one; But there's also that guy who'll make 200 plat so that he doesn't need to buy it himself. 

 

If you make the game better; More people will play. If you make the game more accessible; More people will play. SImples. 

 

Warframe, at least going by the stats that were released at some point by DE (players signed up, frames built, weapons built etc) has a pretty low retention rate. Sure there are some people who play to unlock new stuff (They're pretty well represented on these forums, but I certainly wouldn't say the forum userbase is representative of the actual playerbase) But the majority of players get sick of it, be it before or after they've unlocked any/everything. 

 

 

Please, well done for your emotive language and original lexical choices, But it'd help if you stuck to ideas relevant, or didn't ignore previous counterarguments. 

 

 

 

Then DE will have to buff the players back up to where they were before the suggested changes because people enjoy playing powerful characters.  People enjoy wrecking hordes of mooks and Warframe has found success with this

That's a sweeping generalization. 

 

 

 

What is more, people are free to implement the OP themselves.

Yeah, but that's kinda like giving soldiers the choice of taking a gun into battle or not. The game's set up so that in some places you can't win without "the gun". What's more is that because more players are OP, DE are coming up with new scenarios that need the player to be even more powerful. 

 

As for the rest of what you wrote; I either addressed it earlier or you didn't make enough sense for me to formulate a reply (or there's already a great counterargument somewhere on the thread that you've ignored. That tends to happen in these kinds of threads). 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Its your thread, address it how you wish. If you want to give solutions then give them.

 

That really isn't asking too much. Things that have been seen as too big or too indepth have be done before in WF and other f2P games.

This is small fry and is really just a shifting of mechanics and achieving difficulty beyond endless scaling. Its not that hard to achieve and steps have been made to create more versatile forms of difficulty. The only reason its a challenge now is because endless scaling has been a part of WF since its infancy and as a result most new content is heavily ingrained in that.

Which is why even suggesting the removal or rework of pure dmg mods is mostly met with vitriol.

WF is just like virtually every other MMO and RPG. Dev time is spread out among a host of unique areas, but the average time spent on each area is negligible. For that reason, good campaigns/stories are more usually found in smaller, 8-12 hour games. Quality or quantity, there is no "over."

So asking DE to spend more time on an already complete system is "insanity." Mods like hornet strike and serration were added as fixes to a lazy enemy AI system. Note that the word "lazy" is an over-simplification of the fact that DE did not and does not have time to do any better. I don't literally mean lazy.

[ThePresident777]

Warframe is in beta.  You have to expect change.  You can't just arbitrarilly choose a date in history and expect DE to never ever change anything beyond that point.  The fact that the top DPS was whatever at some point in the past does not matter at all.  The fact that the top DPS is higher today than some arbitrary point in the past does not matter at all.  Power creep is irrelevant.

 

What matters is getting as many people as possible to play and spend.  And, to do that, you have to appeal to a lot of different people.  Not just the tanks, not just the glass canons, not just the nerfers, not just the buffers, but a lot of different people who would gladly set each others toy boxes on fire if they could but somehow can't be allowed to do so.  And, you have to treat them with respect, not abuse them by breaking the stuff they spend money on.  They gave DE money for a reason, for a purpose, and DE owes them respect for it.

 

If they spent money to play a glass cannon, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a tank, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a ninja, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a slow game, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a fast game, you can't nerf it.  Whatever experience they paid for, they deserve to have it respected, not destroyed.  And if two experiences can't coincide in time and space then they both need their separate sandboxes, whether it's a different game or a different mission, or whatever the mechanism.  That is what is important, treating people with respect, not meaningless extra credits slogans like power creep and balance.  DE could disrespect us, but then they reap what they sow, sooner or later.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ThePresident777

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

(quote goes here)

Excellent post, love this!

Edited October 28, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[taiiat]

A skinner box? seriously? snipers may start with a 50% hit chance but every other unit starts with a hit chance somewhere between 30 and 40% and all it takes is a scope to get snipers a 70% chance to hit on good shots and with a few weapon upgrades and perks you can hit stuff halfway across the map with a 90% hit chance.

an Assault Rifle is more effective than a Sniper Rifle with a 50% hit Chance.

 

there's supposed to be all of this great strategy and that all sounds great, except i need to... grind for Squad members to even be useful if they aren't the most generic thing?

i expect my units to be competent with their Equipment to start with, and increase from there.

the last game that i managed units off the top of my head, the Sniper in my Squad started with 95% Accuracy. that meant that my dedicated Sniper was useful without any upgrades. meaning that unit wasn't dead weight.

 

instead of a 50% hit Chance with one shot per turn as opposed to Automatic Weapons that were a 37% hit Chance or something, yet shot something like 8 shots per turn.

or a Shotgun that at close Range just blew things away. if it didn't miss.

 

i couldn't expect much better since this was at the beginning of the game. which is the most critical point of the game. this is where players learn how to play, and you try to impress them.

Enemy Unknown did far from that. the bumbling at the start gave me little reason to expect the game to be great later. it started in the red rather than in the black.

 

-snip-

it sounds like you're saying i should lower my bar. i won't. i hold standards high because they can be achieved and once you do you have a game that supports as many players as possible simultaneously.

[Jarcu]

I think I'd like the damage to increase with item lvl, so lvling a gun meant more, especially if u have all the mods u want on it at lvl 28.

[akira_him]

I think I'd like the damage to increase with item lvl, so lvling a gun meant more, especially if u have all the mods u want on it at lvl 28.

I would like an idea like this, without removing heavy calibur

not just simple removal, this make more sense

Although it would make it harder to level the item in low levels

we can save a slot from that

BTW I still prefer an extra slot for the pure damage mods

the OP was suggesting the 165%buff in dmg is overpowered against weak enemies(correct me if I am wrong)

However the dmg is still essential if enemy scaling don't change

[Innocent_Flower]

 

 

If they spent money to play a glass cannon, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a tank, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a ninja, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a slow game, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a fast game, you can't nerf it.  Whatever experience they paid for, they deserve to have it respected, not destroyed.  And if two experiences can't coincide in time and space then they both need their separate sandboxes, whether it's a different game or a different mission, or whatever the mechanism.  That is what is important, treating people with respect, not meaningless extra credits slogans like power creep and balance.  DE could disrespect us, but then they reap what they sow, sooner or later.

I find It kinda disrespectful that they don't take the time to care for their game and buff/nerf what they've already released. The beta agreement says they can change anything they want. Any inconvenience they make to individuals in the short term should in the long term make the game better for everyone. It's a worthwhile trade.

[Liminal]

If they spent money to play a glass cannon, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a tank, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a ninja, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a slow game, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a fast game, you can't nerf it.  Whatever experience they paid for, they deserve to have it respected, not destroyed.  And if two experiences can't coincide in time and space then they both need their separate sandboxes, whether it's a different game or a different mission, or whatever the mechanism.  That is what is important, treating people with respect, not meaningless extra credits slogans like power creep and balance.  DE could disrespect us, but then they reap what they sow, sooner or later.

That is, realistically speaking, impossible. You can't please everyone.

The best you can aim for is a balanced game. Balanced as in "no powercreep and no OP or UP items". It's also no surprise well designed games are the ones that do best. Paying for something doesn't mean it's forever locked in its current state. They are sticking to the beta tag, so spending money on something in WF is done at your own risk.

[HyokaChan]

As a newbie I have to rely on mods such as Serration and Hornet Strike to keep my damage on par with the places I need to go to gather materials for... whatever that can get me out of the newbie zone.

 

I'd be devastated if these type of mods get nerfed. I've spent quite a bit for these just to get me to hit hard enough to survive, and without it there's no way in the nine hells I'm going to get the blueprints I need to progress onward.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Warframe is in beta. You have to expect change. You can't just arbitrarilly choose a date in history and expect DE to never ever change anything beyond that point. The fact that the top DPS was whatever at some point in the past does not matter at all. The fact that the top DPS is higher today than some arbitrary point in the past does not matter at all. Power creep is irrelevant.

What matters is getting as many people as possible to play and spend. And, to do that, you have to appeal to a lot of different people. Not just the tanks, not just the glass canons, not just the nerfers, not just the buffers, but a lot of different people who would gladly set each others toy boxes on fire if they could but somehow can't be allowed to do so. And, you have to treat them with respect, not abuse them by breaking the stuff they spend money on. They gave DE money for a reason, for a purpose, and DE owes them respect for it.

If they spent money to play a glass cannon, you can't nerf it. If they spent money to play a tank, you can't nerf it. If they spent money to play a ninja, you can't nerf it. If they spent money to play a slow game, you can't nerf it. If they spent money to play a fast game, you can't nerf it. Whatever experience they paid for, they deserve to have it respected, not destroyed. And if two experiences can't coincide in time and space then they both need their separate sandboxes, whether it's a different game or a different mission, or whatever the mechanism. That is what is important, treating people with respect, not meaningless extra credits slogans like power creep and balance. DE could disrespect us, but then they reap what they sow, sooner or later.

Mods like Hornet Strike and Serration don't apply to this logic. The point of this thread is to lower the dramatic use of mods like Redirection, Serration, and Pressure Point. Straight buffs that require no thinking whatsoever. In other words, they benefit literally every playstyle (save for the guy who handicaps himself). Your argument applies to complex weapon/frame builds that encompass mods that aren't necessarily straight buffs.

The problem is that these straight buff mods are needed to handle the way enemies scale. Enemies don't scale in combat tactics or strategy. They scale in damage, health, armor, etc.

Edit: Our good friend Hyokachan (above me) explains this perfectly.

Edited October 28, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[StinkyPygmy]

No.

 

Look, there are two types of games in relation to this question.  There are games in which progression is sort of illusory, because "enemies" (or whatever) "level up" (or whatever) with you; the only difference is you have more toys to play with, and the enemy has more moves that you use those toys to counter.  This means you're more or less always in the position relative to enemies that you are in the beginning, therefore it presents a continuous challenge.  Some people prefer this. 

 

There are also games where progression means that at some point you are more powerful than enemies, and that's your "reward" for sticking with the game.  Some people prefer that.

 

There are plenty games of the former type, but not so many of the latter, mainly because developers have a fear that people will drop out of a game if it isn't "challenging" in the first sense.  But actually, games that eventually give a feeling of god-like power also have their draw.

 

Warframe is one of those games, and I'd prefer if it stays that way.

 

If I want something that's continuously challenging, I go play XCOM with the Long War mod.

 

If I want to feel like the very god of death, I play Warframe.

 

Plenty of room for both types of games.

You have a point, but here my two cents. People seem to forget that most games actually operate with a wave formatted difficulty curve. 

First thing are fairly easy, your hand is held, the game is explained and you get to feel overall more powerful then the AI. Next you hit a bit of difficulty but not too much, nothing you can't handle. Then as a reward for hitting the first peak of difficulty you get some cool new toys or powers to play with and go back to feeling like a god, maybe with a new enemy or two. After that you hit another difficulty peak and get rewarded again for over coming that challenge.

Rinse and repeat

 

WF, however is one of the rare games I've encountered that has an inverse difficulty curve. It starts off about as hard as it will ever get, simply because you don't have crazy OP mods or the resources to upgrade them. Then as time goes on things effectively get easier and easier till you break the game.

 

I enjoy feeling like a god as much as the next guy, but not forever. I'd at least like a choice to have some semblance of a challenge that doesn't revolve around bad scaling or gimping myself. Oddly enough, gimping myself doesn't even seem to add much more of a challenge. I can go to pluto with an unmodded braton and still wreck everything. Theres the issue, not even hurting myself yields much more of a challenge.

 

Thats a huge part of the problem. WF has the capacity to appeal to players on both sides yet it fails to do that.

 

Warframe is in beta.  You have to expect change.  You can't just arbitrarilly choose a date in history and expect DE to never ever change anything beyond that point.  The fact that the top DPS was whatever at some point in the past does not matter at all.  The fact that the top DPS is higher today than some arbitrary point in the past does not matter at all.  Power creep is irrelevant.

 

What matters is getting as many people as possible to play and spend.  And, to do that, you have to appeal to a lot of different people.  Not just the tanks, not just the glass canons, not just the nerfers, not just the buffers, but a lot of different people who would gladly set each others toy boxes on fire if they could but somehow can't be allowed to do so.  And, you have to treat them with respect, not abuse them by breaking the stuff they spend money on.  They gave DE money for a reason, for a purpose, and DE owes them respect for it.

 

If they spent money to play a glass cannon, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a tank, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a ninja, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a slow game, you can't nerf it.  If they spent money to play a fast game, you can't nerf it.  Whatever experience they paid for, they deserve to have it respected, not destroyed.  And if two experiences can't coincide in time and space then they both need their separate sandboxes, whether it's a different game or a different mission, or whatever the mechanism.  That is what is important, treating people with respect, not meaningless extra credits slogans like power creep and balance.  DE could disrespect us, but then they reap what they sow, sooner or later.

I'm sorry but thats simply not the case. People play WF for a variety of reasons and DE cannot please literally everyone.

I see what you are trying to say, but not changing anything whether it be a nerf or a buff etc is not going to improve anything.

The fact people have spent money does not entitle them to get what they want (lots of people have spent money and they all want different, opposing things) or mean DE cannot change things as they wish. When we signed up for this we all agreed and acknowledged that everything was subject to change and without notice. DE is kind enough to do things like let us know in advance, ask for our feedback, and give us refunds on things for some changes when they aren't even obliged to do that.

 

Things simply do not work that way. If they did nothing would ever change because with every slight change DE would be stepping on a paying customers toes. I've had things change on me before and I simply adapted and moved on. I'm a paying customer, but I don' t feel like DE was giving me the shaft. Sorry but that logic is terribly flawed. 

If people are that petty that they see a change on something they have spent time on in a beta game that is known to be fluid as disrespect then they need to either keep their ego in check or not spend money on what is essentially a risk.

 

Let it rest.  The devs said this in a devstream, explaining how it works.  The main point was that the mod thing is customizable and that is how they want it to be.  You got a problem with it, complain to the devs like everyone else.  I was just explaining how they intended this game to be.  Never said it was right, and I never said I agree with it.  I just deal with the game as is, and so should ever one else.   Also I said there is nothing anyone can do about it, except quit the game.  The devs decide how it all goes in the first place.  And for the sake of argument, it was on topic.  Making threads about changing mods for more than two years has changed nothing.  That's a fact.

 

All DE is ever going to do is move forward.  They are not going to appease a few complainers, otherwise they would have done it by now.

You are making a lot of assumptions about what DE want and assuming the people that criticize a system you are ok with are "complainers". Sorry but people that apply that kind of logic when they are presented with calm and rational people simply putting forth an opinion or suggestion, without making demands, really grind my gears. That attitude is no better then people that are actually complaining or making demands to suit them.

 

Yes DE said the mod system was introduced over a upgrade tree to allow for customization, you're right. Which is exactly why we have a problem now. All we have is a case of false choice. True customization would mean we wouldn't have 90% of our mods useless compared to a select few. It means that we would have lots of equally viable set ups that handle different situations better then others.

 

Many of us deal with game as is, in fact I rarely have anything that I don't like about WF and when I do I let it slide. I'm one of the forums goers not tearing DE a new one because of age old bugs or complaining 24/7 that something is broken or that DE are money grubbing nobjockies. The point is, I would rather see people making suggestions and calmly discussing ideas to improve things (something DE encourages more then most other Dev teams), then people sitting there finding an issue with everyone that makes suggestions because its " too hard" or " too complicated"  or " just sit there and be quite because I don't agree". 

I'm one of the more content players on the forums with how DE has handled things and even I have opinions on things I think can be improved.

 

All I see is a majority of people not reading, not entertaining the idea, ignoring arguments presented or just flat out stonewalling the conversation because the idea of change, even ideas that will likely never see the light of day, scares them. This could very well not be a good idea, and I accept that. But I've noticed that I've seen more convincing arguments for at least something to be changed then I have for nothing to be changed at all. 

It seems the arguments against mostly come down to:

 

"No" 

"your dum and that ideas dum" 

"change is scary" 

"I may or may not agree but its too hard so why bother"

"some assumption about what the devs want but have never explicitly said and that ignores their capacity to change opinions or ideas which is something they have done many times before" (warframe was only ever expected to be played for a few hours then dumped when it was designed, yet here DE is making a game for longer play and amazed at how much people enjoy the game and are committed" 

"Pfft stop being selfish and trying to make the game about what you want" 

 

The fact these are the most consistent arguments against any kind of change only tells me that the point is being missed or ignored.

I'm a little bit done with this thread. Its going around in circles and I'm sick of people trying to speak for eachother and put words in eachother mouths or start assuming intentions or goals.

 

Its simply a suggestion. The fact their is so much vitriol and blatent disregard for what people are saying is disturbing. I'm not directing this at anyone in particular but its been a common thing across most of this thread.

 

WF is just like virtually every other MMO and RPG. Dev time is spread out among a host of unique areas, but the average time spent on each area is negligible. For that reason, good campaigns/stories are more usually found in smaller, 8-12 hour games. Quality or quantity, there is no "over."

So asking DE to spend more time on an already complete system is "insanity." Mods like hornet strike and serration were added as fixes to a lazy enemy AI system. Note that the word "lazy" is an over-simplification of the fact that DE did not and does not have time to do any better. I don't literally mean lazy.

Thats not the case. Do you actually think DE or any other developer of an MMORPG etc  has never gone back and spent time fixing or changing finished systems or mechanics? Of course they have. DE has done it several times before. I do understand that there is a differnce between this and your regular, stand alone games. But they are more or less finished on release and its not exactly relevant here. But you are right, those games are to be more polished for obvious reasons.

 

DE going back to make changes to a more or less " finished" system isn't exactly out of the question and its not exactly insanity to put the idea across.

Edited October 28, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Azawarau]

WF is just like virtually every other MMO and RPG. Dev time is spread out among a host of unique areas, but the average time spent on each area is negligible. For that reason, good campaigns/stories are more usually found in smaller, 8-12 hour games. Quality or quantity, there is no "over."

So asking DE to spend more time on an already complete system is "insanity." Mods like hornet strike and serration were added as fixes to a lazy enemy AI system. Note that the word "lazy" is an over-simplification of the fact that DE did not and does not have time to do any better. I don't literally mean lazy.

 

 

To all the people saying no

 

We really should just increase every weapons damage by something like 110%? and have an extra slot to work with after

 

Everyones happy

 

Damage goes up a little and the false choice mod is gone

Theres a very simple solution to it though

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Then you make it ever easier. You're hurting the issue.

Edited October 28, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[Ska-boo]

As a newbie I have to rely on mods such as Serration and Hornet Strike to keep my damage on par with the places I need to go to gather materials for... whatever that can get me out of the newbie zone.

 

I'd be devastated if these type of mods get nerfed. I've spent quite a bit for these just to get me to hit hard enough to survive, and without it there's no way in the nine hells I'm going to get the blueprints I need to progress onward.

We're not talking about removing or nerfing them, but about giving an alternative, so that you could have proper damage by some other means too, not just by equipping one single mod on every weapon.

[Innocent_Flower]

As a newbie I have to rely on mods such as Serration and Hornet Strike to keep my damage on par with the places I need to go to gather materials for... whatever that can get me out of the newbie zone.

 

I'd be devastated if these type of mods get nerfed. I've spent quite a bit for these just to get me to hit hard enough to survive, and without it there's no way in the nine hells I'm going to get the blueprints I need to progress onward.

Play a game of void. All those hard times finding credits in the solar system become meaningless. Even tier one (pretty easy) gives you over 10k per mission.

 

(also, You can get good gear without moving beyond the first three planets) 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Innocent_Flower