Do Something About Serration And Hornet Strike.

[TenshuYuusha]

New Game +" mode: it will be easier, but it will still hurt you and you can still die, there is still challenge there.

That sounds like the Souls series of games, otherwise just about every NG+ mode is basically "revenge" mode, there's no challenge. :v

[MumblesMcphatty]

Well this thread is certainly an eye-opener as to the mentality of the Warframe playerbase. At least those who feel the need to post too much.

 

All you guys dismissing the OP's attempt to discuss a certain mechanic - are missing one very important aspect amidst your cries of, "I don't care - I like being badass - this post is dumb ..." etc

 

A very basic fact of game design - any game design - is that if one element is being used above all others & to the exclusion of anything else - its not simply a question of balance. >It is a fundamental flaw in the design<

 

You may like being ridiculously overpowered wherever you go - and you may be so wrapped up in the min/max mentality of higher level gameplay that you are incapable of understanding why its not actually a good thing. And you may feel the need to shout down the OP - none of this changes the main point of his post - he is right!

 

The fact remains - DE have designed a very interesting system of customization for your frames/weapons. However - the journey through the game itself renders many of these options inefficient or unpalatable - mainly to min/maxers - but even I can see that the later level gameplay requires you to play like a min/maxer. Even if you have enough of an imagination that you'd rather not have to!

 

I do not agree that removal or nerfing is an answer. However - it does highlight a serious issue with Warframe. What is the point of all these customization options - if over half of them are completely useless outside of low-level play? Many games suffer from the scourge of min/max mentality - however - they are still capable of being completed without being forced into this playstyle.

 

As a beta game - Warframe is exceptional - certainly it requires some serious polishing here & there. This issue right here - is the only really serious flaw that I can see.

 

It will affect this game's ability to sustain itself over a long period of time if one of the main aspects of gameplay - which supposedly offers a wealth of variety - in fact does nothing of the sort. Sadly, I do not have any solid ideas on how to fix this without a serious reworking of pretty much everything.

 

Although - if we fired all the min/max gamers into the Sun - we'd probably have an easier time fixing it!

[Liminal]

That sounds like the Souls series of games, otherwise just about every NG+ mode is basically "revenge" mode, there's no challenge. :v

Off the top of my mind, in the right difficulty setting, Hard Reset, Dead Space and DXHR are still beat your butt if you try to pull the crap we do in WF (taking into account the different kinds of gameplay). You don't OHK a boss in RE4 or Mass Effect 2 in NG+. And you certainly don't take less than 1% damage per hit.

[StinkyPygmy]

Well this thread is certainly an eye-opener as to the mentality of the Warframe playerbase. At least those who feel the need to post too much.

 

All you guys dismissing the OP's attempt to discuss a certain mechanic - are missing one very important aspect amidst your cries of, "I don't care - I like being badass - this post is dumb ..." etc

 

A very basic fact of game design - any game design - is that if one element is being used above all others & to the exclusion of anything else - its not simply a question of balance. >It is a fundamental flaw in the design<

 

You may like being ridiculously overpowered wherever you go - and you may be so wrapped up in the min/max mentality of higher level gameplay that you are incapable of understanding why its not actually a good thing. And you may feel the need to shout down the OP - none of this changes the main point of his post - he is right!

 

The fact remains - DE have designed a very interesting system of customization for your frames/weapons. However - the journey through the game itself renders many of these options inefficient or unpalatable - mainly to min/maxers - but even I can see that the later level gameplay requires you to play like a min/maxer. Even if you have enough of an imagination that you'd rather not have to!

 

I do not agree that removal or nerfing is an answer. However - it does highlight a serious issue with Warframe. What is the point of all these customization options - if over half of them are completely useless outside of low-level play? Many games suffer from the scourge of min/max mentality - however - they are still capable of being completed without being forced into this playstyle.

 

As a beta game - Warframe is exceptional - certainly it requires some serious polishing here & there. This issue right here - is the only really serious flaw that I can see.

 

It will affect this game's ability to sustain itself over a long period of time if one of the main aspects of gameplay - which supposedly offers a wealth of variety - in fact does nothing of the sort. Sadly, I do not have any solid ideas on how to fix this without a serious reworking of pretty much everything.

 

Although - if we fired all the min/max gamers into the Sun - we'd probably have an easier time fixing it!

Thank you for approaching this with a degree of rationality.

+10000000000

You have explained it well.

 

Perhaps the removal of Serration etc and the balance changes that would come with it isn't the best option, but you have hit the nail on the head as far as why over powered pure dmg mods cause problems and restrict the modding system, which was originally designed to encourage creativity and multiple play styles.  

As it is now we might as well have your standard skill/upgrade tree for weapons, because all we have  is false choice and a pile of mods that are overshadowed by their jack of all trades counterparts that do what they do, but better and for minimal cost.

 

Whatever the solution, one thing is certain: If its done right it will assist in fixing multiple related issues and leave everyone from the casual player to the min/maxers happy. Wanna feel like a god? Sure thing. What the choice of difficulty without breaking the game or hurting yourself? You got it!

 

I love WF and I want to see the modding system shine and work as DE stated they intended it to work. They have said multiple times that the idea behind the modding system was to provide players with the tools to customise their equipment and play around with different set ups. As it is now we are very limited in that and of a few builds will out shine just about everything else, almost regardless of weapon type.

Edited October 27, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[VampirePirate]

Mods that triple your damage. Unless you're playing on a very low level game and don't want to make it too easy; You're going to equip these mods on any weapon that can take them. 

 

They're overpowered and add nothing to customisation or the game. Seriously. In what way do they make the game better? Do they make you more powerful? I suppose; But you're just getting more powerful to deal with lancers who have higher numbers. There's no meaningful progression with your tripple damage. It's just taking up a mod slot. As a bonus, even if you've got some great build that doesn't use these mods.. your teammates will have a better build because they do use them. 

 They will likely out-compete you. 

In the long run. They're bad for the game. Some possible solutions; 

 

- weaken them to the point that they're optional. They still have ten levels. But you don't need them if you want to play a high level game . You'd also be fine with having a max level mod on a low-tier game. You could up your firerate or increase specific types of damage instead. (rework level scalling) 

 

- Replace with cores and credits. You'd get a lot.  Rework level scalling. 

 

- Split the mod into several other dual stat serrations/hornet strikes. +damage -clipsize, +damage -accuracy, +damage +recoil, +damage -reload speed. That way you've still got the mods- there's just some level of originality in choosing what one you like best. 

 

And buff the mods that need buffing maybe? Y'know. +puncture or +status chance. maybe add stuff for specific enemies. 

 

Some things that need to happen anyway

Fix of level scalling (i got a pretty good thread on it here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/328207-so-theres-a-big-guy-in-big-armour-and-hes-pathetic-here-and-godly-there/

Rebalancing/rework of some other mods.Would fix any concerns that other mods would become "essential" in replacement. 

All DE has to do is provide some way to adjust the rank of mods you already ranked up.  They don't have to be fully ranked to do that.  Every mod you have will be adjustable.  If you ranked up a Serration to say, level 8, then you can scale it down to level 1 if you wanted to, but you can't bring up past 8 until you rank it up more first.  That would solve a lot of problems.  I think people would be satisfied with this.  Most people at least.

 

Nerfing this and nerfing that really does not add any kind of balance to the game.   The end result, after all is done, is mediocrity.  All guns do the same thing, all guns do nearly the same damage, and it would be assumed that everyone is happy because everything is fair and equal.  Wrong.  In example, Boltor Prime is considered one of the most powerful rifles in the game.  What makes it so great?  Other guns are not as great.  Balance would mean making other rifles do the same thing as the Boltor Prime with enough buffs and nerfs.  Then why would I care to use Boltor Prime if things end up like that?   I personally do not care to use Boltor Prime, because it is not my kind of weapon, but I do have it and I use it when I feel the need is right.  Not all people would agree with that playstyle though.  However, if I take this as a correct-for-all-people, telling them how to use Boltor Prime or how not to use it, not only am I generalizing but I will not be taken seriously.  You don't have to max your mods, and you don't have to use your mods either.  You can make this game really difficult or challenging by simply removing your own mods and not worry about what others do with theirs.  However, because everyone enjoys a sense of progression in this game (and part of progression is modding your stuff), they are going to use these mods as they see fit.  Even you mod your own stuff and complain about how easy this game is and how overpowered you are.  That only proves that even you agree with the power you have.  Yet you are begging DE to lessen things when you have the ability to lessen things on your own.  With all due respect, this is making you sound like a hypocrite.

 

I have tested this out by making an additional account and starting from scratch, using no plat or anything.  I am collecting mods and using them, even using fusion cores, and with that 'noob account' I made, the game is quite challenging and even difficult on the beginning levels.  It's nothing I can't handle, but still.  This is proof to me that the power to balance the game is actually in the hands of the player (to some degree), not to the devs.  It makes little sense for the devs to lessen mods when you can do that yourself.  None of these mods are "essential", and no one says they are.  People just like to use them.  In some way, it actually sounds like you want people to play the game the way you want to them to play it.

[Liminal]

Nerfing this and nerfing that really does not add any kind of balance to the game. 

Yes, it does. Balance can be achieved through tweaks like nerfs and buffs.

 

The end result, after all is done, is mediocrity.  All guns do the same thing, all guns do nearly the same damage, and it would be assumed that everyone is happy because everything is fair and equal.  Wrong. 

If it's done correctly, no, the result is balance or something closer to it. You don't seem to actually understand the meaning of balance or equal viability.

 

You can make this game really difficult or challenging by simply removing your own mods and not worry about what others do with theirs. 

You can't expect players to handicap themselves to get a challenge. It won't happen and that's not how games work.

It's not about what others are doing, it's about not being presented a challenge when playing the game as expected.

[VampirePirate]

I missed this one!

The thing is you need to go back to low level missions very often. Maybe to rank up a lv0 gun. Maybe for an alert. Maybe to farm resources. It's one of the many contradictions of Warframe.

Actually you don't need to go to low level mission to rank up anything.  You can take one low level gun with you to high level missions, (provided you have tougher weapons with you that can handle the difficulty), and it will rank up just a easily.  People just like to go to lower levels, probably because they can actually use that unranked gun and succeed against enemies with it.  Then later they progress to higher level with that same gun.

[MumblesMcphatty]

As it is now we are very limited in that and of a few builds will out shine just about everything else, almost regardless of weapon type.

 

This is not inherently a problem - it exists in many games. The major issue is that you cannot actually handle lategame content in WF if you ignore these tried & true mod configs. That - emphatically - is a problem - especailly if you're taking the longview that WF could potentially be added onto forever and ever ... but no one would care cuz they're still using the exact same mod configs from the beta days - for every single weapon.

 

 

It makes little sense for the devs to lessen mods when you can do that yourself.  None of these mods are "essential", and no one says they are.  People just like to use them.  In some way, it actually sounds like you want people to play the game the way you want to them to play it.

 

Wow - you wrote a helluva lot - but in fact said very little. You're missing the point. The onus should not be on the player to limit or overpower their experience. Nor are we saying that every weapon should be nerfed to be exactly the same.

 

The point is - that these mod configs are presumed to be essential - and this has become a fact. Lategame content - it certainly is - and many, many people say exactly these things - over & over & over ... this is a sign of a broken system.

 

This isn't about forcing people to play a certain way - its about exposing an inherent flaw. I'm not getting involved in this discussion because I wish to spoil the min/maxers "fun" - although I make no secret that I despise those types of gamers. Your statements fall flat on their face when you realise that lategame content is forcing everyone to play like min/maxers. Its not even a question of balance anymore in that case - it is simply flawed.

 

"The power to balance the game is in the player's hands..." - did you get this in a fortune cookie or something?

 

Its the developers JOB to balance the game ... not just throw out something that kinda works (but really only one way) and then keep adding on mods & moves & abilities over months/years that no one will use because the system is broken from the ground up.

 

[S3EK3R]

Remove damage mods. Every one of them. Elementals too. If you remove serration the damage specific mod will take it's place, and that's no variety. Me and co enjoy going up against high level enemies and it takes more than one shots to kill them. If you take away our damage mods we wouldn't be able to do that. You do not like it, fine. Then don't use it. Do not force other people's hand because you do not like something.

 

Go and play against level 15 grineers on Saturn.

 

EDIT: You have three slots for customization. I use a high-level build and use a fun build. Fun build consists of "band-aid" mods which I take to low level. I do not one-shot low level enemies with the fun build, but I can kill high level enemies with my other build. I do not want to pump and entire magazine into one single enemy because I can one-shot low level enemies and you do not like that.

Edited October 27, 2014 by S3EK3R

[Liminal]

Actually you don't need to go to low level mission to rank up anything.  You can take one low level gun with you to high level missions, (provided you have tougher weapons with you that can handle the difficulty), and it will rank up just a easily.  People just like to go to lower levels, probably because they can actually use that unranked gun and succeed against enemies with it.  Then later they progress to higher level with that same gun.

Unless you are just trying to increase numbers, you probably want to use the gun you are ranking up. And I'd expect that to be the intended way to rank up things tbh.

[VampirePirate]

Yes, it does. Balance can be achieved through tweaks like nerfs and buffs.

 

me: Yes of course.  However, when people complain on the forums, that's not exactly what they are talking about sometimes.  I often see people beg DE to nerf or tweak something simply because they don't like it.  Not because something actually need to be adjusted.

 

 

If it's done correctly, no, the result is balance or something closer to it. You don't seem to actually understand the meaning of balance or equal viability.

 

me: Yes, true, but... you don't know what I understand or don't understand.  Not everyone understands what balance is, and not everyone here is a game developer or have a history in game development.  When some people mention "balance" they don't always mean balance. They misuse the word.  That doesn't mean I am one of them.  I agree that there is some balancing need in this game.  It's just a matter of when or if DE will do this.  In the meantime, what to do?

 

 

You can't expect players to handicap themselves to get a challenge. It won't happen and that's not how games work.

 

Me:  I don't expect that from players, and never said I did.  That was my point.  Players will not, even if they can.  Due to progression (through the modding system).  However the game is designed so that you can "handicap" yourself if you wanted to.  That may be where the problem is.  Thing is, this is how the game is now.  If someone thinks that serration and hornet strike is too overpowered, they do not have to use them.

 

It's not about what others are doing, it's about not being presented a challenge when playing the game as expected.

 

Me: I guess that is where people go wrong.  Expectations.  They start playing this game with these expectations and not consider where and how the game is.  Yes, the game needs some rework and DE could address some of these issues, but they have not done that according to what I have seen.  That makes me think one of two things.  Either they do not care about these issues and will continue on in their way no matter how much players complain, or they just have not gotten around to fixing or tweaking these issues and will soon happen.  (Whatever "soon" is supposed to mean.)  However, this that the OP is stating is something players have complained for as long as I can remember.  I started playing when warframe became open beta.  I found that people complained these same things even before then.  How many threads have said the same thing this OP is saying over the past couple of years?   Still no changes, despite people "playing the game as expected".  My point was that there are things the player can do to solve the current problem with being overpowered.  I don't expect them to do so, nor will I enforce it.  I just get the impression that DE will not conform to these demands, so until then (when and if they decide to do so), what can you do?  Make more threads?

 

 

Overall, I do agree that DE needs to make some changes to all this.  I believe they said in the last Devstream that they are doing a rework.   The thing is, what can you do about it now to make the game more challenging and more difficult if it is too easy?  Remove your own mods.  That is until DE provides some kind of rework where you don't have to do that.  That was my point, but it was without saying.

[VampirePirate]

<snip>

Wow - you wrote a helluva lot - but in fact said very little. You're missing the point. The onus should not be on the player to limit or overpower their experience. Nor are we saying that every weapon should be nerfed to be exactly the same.

 

me:  No, I'm not missing the point.  You are right, it should not be up to the player to limit his or her self.  However, that is how the game was designed.  I'm not saying you want every weapon to be nerfed the same, but there are people who actually want this according to the complaints in the forum.

 

The point is - that these mod configs are presumed to be essential - and this has become a fact. Lategame content - it certainly is - and many, many people say exactly these things - over & over & over ... this is a sign of a broken system.

 

me: Who makes these presumptions about mod configurations being essential.  Devs or the player?  Yes, I agree something is not right with the system as you say, but what can be done about it?  Players complain and make threads over and over, and has it changed any?  Does not sound like there is an actual solution, not without remaking the entire game.  I doubt DE will do that at this point.

 

This isn't about forcing people to play a certain way - its about exposing an inherent flaw. I'm not getting involved in this discussion because I wish to spoil the min/maxers "fun" - although I make no secret that I despise those types of gamers. Your statements fall flat on their face when you realise that lategame content is forcing everyone to play like min/maxers. Its not even a question of balance anymore in that case - it is simply flawed.

 

me: okay, okay, and okay.  The inherent flaw is exposed, and it has been exposed for years now.  I think the Devs know this and know about this for quite a long time now.  What are you going to do about it?  Continue playing, quit playing, what?  Go get hired by DE?  Become a billionaire and buy the company from Perfect World Entertainment?  Everyone knows it's flawed.  This same thing is addressed over and over, and still no change.

 

"The power to balance the game is in the player's hands..." - did you get this in a fortune cookie or something?

 

Me:  No I did not get it from a fortune cookie.  That's a funny joke though, and quite old.  I think I worded that wrong, but I did make my point.  The game as player expect should not be so the player has to limit himself or overpower himself, but that is the way the game is designed anyhow.  What are you going to do about it?  Make more threads and tell the devs what they already know?

 

Its the developers JOB to balance the game ... not just throw out something that kinda works (but really only one way) and then keep adding on mods & moves & abilities over months/years that no one will use because the system is broken from the ground up.

 

me: yes, yes, and yes.  We all know "It's the developers job to balance the game".  They are not doing it the way you expect though.  What can you do about it?  You expect them to dismantle this game and build it back from the ground up?  Really?  See... you made statements to make me look foolish, but this that you said is foolish.  They obviously are not going to remake the entire game after so much money and time and effort was already invested into the game.  Financially that makes no sense.  Of course they are going to continue forward.  What is done is done.  I am certain that if they could make changes that will make everyone happy, they would.  Either that can and don't want to, or they can't and don't care to.

 

So no, I am not missing the point.  I get it.  Question is, what can be done about it or what will they do about it if they want to do it?  I don't think that people making threads over and over again is making any difference in this case.

Unless you are just trying to increase numbers, you probably want to use the gun you are ranking up. And I'd expect that to be the intended way to rank up things tbh.

Agreed.  It's just not the only way.

[Omnimorph]

No.

 

Look, there are two types of games in relation to this question.  There are games in which progression is sort of illusory, because "enemies" (or whatever) "level up" (or whatever) with you; the only difference is you have more toys to play with, and the enemy has more moves that you use those toys to counter.  This means you're more or less always in the position relative to enemies that you are in the beginning, therefore it presents a continuous challenge.  Some people prefer this. 

 

There are also games where progression means that at some point you are more powerful than enemies, and that's your "reward" for sticking with the game.  Some people prefer that.

 

There are plenty games of the former type, but not so many of the latter, mainly because developers have a fear that people will drop out of a game if it isn't "challenging" in the first sense.  But actually, games that eventually give a feeling of god-like power also have their draw.

 

Warframe is one of those games, and I'd prefer if it stays that way.

 

If I want something that's continuously challenging, I go play XCOM with the Long War mod.

 

If I want to feel like the very god of death, I play Warframe.

 

Plenty of room for both types of games.

[gnat6]

No.

 

Look, there are two types of games in relation to this question.  There are games in which progression is sort of illusory, because "enemies" (or whatever) "level up" (or whatever) with you; the only difference is you have more toys to play with, and the enemy has more moves that you use those toys to counter.  This means you're more or less always in the position relative to enemies that you are in the beginning, therefore it presents a continuous challenge.  Some people prefer this. 

 

There are also games where progression means that at some point you are more powerful than enemies, and that's your "reward" for sticking with the game.  Some people prefer that.

 

There are plenty games of the former type, but not so many of the latter, mainly because developers have a fear that people will drop out of a game if it isn't "challenging" in the first sense.  But actually, games that eventually give a feeling of god-like power also have their draw.

 

Warframe is one of those games, and I'd prefer if it stays that way.

 

If I want something that's continuously challenging, I go play XCOM with the Long War mod.

 

If I want to feel like the very god of death, I play Warframe.

 

Plenty of room for both types of games.

You actually have a really good point there but what you are missing is that there are 2 seperate issues with the base damage mods.

 

The first is the massive amount of damage that they allow that trivializes all low level content once you rank them up which is more of a design choice that some people disagree with than a flaw with the mod system.

 

And the second issue is that they are so much more useful than some of the other mods that half of the weapon mods* are completely pointless which is clearly not working as intended and needs to be fixed so that we can enjoy customizing our weapons without being completely useless at higher levels.

 

*for the record yes I just made that number up I don't actually know what percentage of mods are woefully underpowered but that doesn't matter as much as the fact that there are mods that are not worth using

[xethier]

-snip-

 

Warframe is one of those games, and I'd prefer if it stays that way.

 

If I want something that's continuously challenging, I go play XCOM with the Long War mod.

 

If I want to feel like the very god of death, I play Warframe.

 

Plenty of room for both types of games.

 

it's funny, you just listed the only two games installed on my system at the moment.

warframe & xcom EW w/ long war. (and holy freakin' crap, once you get about a year into it (game time) it's disturbingly difficult)

[VampirePirate]

I have not played XCOM.  Would you guys suggest it?  I know nothing about it.

[Sasquatchias]

Its pretty good if you like strategy games.

[Ska-boo]

 

There are also games where progression means that at some point you are more powerful than enemies, and that's your "reward" for sticking with the game.  Some people prefer that.

I prefer this model too. This is how any proper offline RPG should work in my opinion, but I'm not sure about online co-op shooters. I mean, if you are already G-d of death, why do you need to squad up with 3 other players? The possibility of cooperation oughts to be utilized somehow.

[Ska-boo]

I have not played XCOM.  Would you guys suggest it?  I know nothing about it.

If you're about the new one, then it's meh. It is quite ok, but nothing comparing to the original series. Oversimplification of those few global strategical elements that were even transfered from the old game and tactical element(fights with aliens) is basically turn-based Call of Duty.

[taiiat]

oh boy. "don't equip it if you want the game to be harder". such a grand argument. 

implying that for one, the game actually is difficult. when it isn't.

and implying that the other way around isn't just the same? if you want a really easy game you can always play against low Level Enemies.

 

 

 

 

on topic:

i'm completely open to making Damage Mods more of a specialization choice or something more engaging, rather than just more stats because raisons.

giving players choices to deal with that encourages them to think about their choices and makes ones that work for them makes the preparation part of the game infinitely more engaging than it is now.

 

because as it is now, when a new player asks for advice on Mods for their Weapons - the only truthful answer is to tell them to throw on any Mod that says Damage or Multishot on it, and they'll be good. even at the top end of the Solar Map, just put on a bunch of Mods that say Damage and you'll Kill things easily.

that's not engaging at all. and disappoints those prospective players, certainly with good reason. it looks like there's all of this choice and take and give, when all it does is really just multiply the stats of your Equipment by 50-100x.

 

 

Edit:

XCOM? heh. i played that for a bit( Enemy Unknown, atleast). i uninstalled it when my Sniper had a 50% Chance to hit at all ranges. making it useless compared to spraying Weapons.

yeah, yeah. you can upgrade your Squad members. but that kind of Accuracy garbage showed me the game was a skinner box.

Edited October 28, 2014 by taiiat

[gnat6]

 

Edit:

XCOM? heh. i played that for a bit( Enemy Unknown, atleast). i uninstalled it when my Sniper had a 50% Chance to hit at all ranges. making it useless compared to spraying Weapons.

yeah, yeah. you can upgrade your Squad members. but that kind of Accuracy garbage showed me the game was a skinner box.

A skinner box? seriously? snipers may start with a 50% hit chance but every other unit starts with a hit chance somewhere between 30 and 40% and all it takes is a scope to get snipers a 70% chance to hit on good shots and with a few weapon upgrades and perks you can hit stuff halfway across the map with a 90% hit chance.

[Azawarau]

To all the people saying no

 

We really should just increase every weapons damage by something like 110%? and have an extra slot to work with after

 

Everyones happy

 

Damage goes up a little and the false choice mod is gone

[VampirePirate]

oh boy. "don't equip it if you want the game to be harder". such a grand argument. 

implying that for one, the game actually is difficult. when it isn't.

and implying that the other way around isn't just the same? if you want a really easy game you can always play against low Level Enemies.

 

Let it rest.  The devs said this in a devstream, explaining how it works.  The main point was that the mod thing is customizable and that is how they want it to be.  You got a problem with it, complain to the devs like everyone else.  I was just explaining how they intended this game to be.  Never said it was right, and I never said I agree with it.  I just deal with the game as is, and so should ever one else.   Also I said there is nothing anyone can do about it, except quit the game.  The devs decide how it all goes in the first place.  And for the sake of argument, it was on topic.  Making threads about changing mods for more than two years has changed nothing.  That's a fact.

 

All DE is ever going to do is move forward.  They are not going to appease a few complainers, otherwise they would have done it by now.

[ThePresident777]

The Original Post, i.e. OP, suggests to nerf serration then adjust everything else.  Then DE will have to buff the players back up to where they were before the suggested changes because people enjoy playing powerful characters.  People enjoy wrecking hordes of mooks and Warframe has found success with this.  That is a key point here.  People are asking DE to turn it's back on it's success.  They are also asking DE to make Warframe less unique.  Those are terrible suggestions. 

 

What is more, people are free to implement the OP themselves.  They can take off serration or use a low rank serration.  They can load out weapons and Warframes however they want and then play whatever level they feel comfortable playing with their favorite load out.  It does not require DE to spend any money.  It's free.

 

What is more, they can form their own clans and use the conclave rating system to form parties as they desire.  If the conclave rating system is not adequate, they could ask DE to make it so, after all, that is a natural use of the conclave system.  It was even used as such in an event.  In fact, a discussion on the proper conclave rating of serration and other mods would be a much more productive discussion as it is an attempt to objectify an important issue and give players choice. 

 

Warframe Defense mods are the inverse of weapon damage mods.  Why the issue with Serration and not Redirection for instance?  People are free to not use defense mods and no one complains about it like people complain about Serration.

 

Like the rest of the calls to nerf on this forum, this OP does not present a compelling business plan but asks DE to turn it's back on it's success and uniqueness.  For what?  For "balance"?  "Balance" is a farce.  This OP is not attempting to convey to DE a particular play style that the author, and other like minded individuals, would enjoy.  It's not suggesting incorporating another player base into the game along side what it already has, so much as it asks DE to waste money rewritting a successful game with old ideas found in it's competitors and infuriating a large portion of it's current player base.

 

A better, because non-destructive and non-devisive and empowering, suggestion would be to buff the crappy mods like magazine size, rate of fire, and reload speed, to the same effect on Damage Per Second as damage mods.  Then, the weapon mods all yield the same results and people choose them as a matter of taste, as choice.  Matter of taste cannot be emphasized enough here.  It is the opposite of what the OP suggests, which is to ignore other people's tastes and just impose on them this one arbitrary choice.

 

That serration is theoretically required at some level is immaterial.  Everything has to be adjusted to multiple competing tastes.   And that is the truly important issue, how to achieve revenue streams from multiple competing tastes.  Nerfing serration does not achieve a higher goal.  It's an expense not worth making.

Edited October 28, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Sasquatchias]

I find that "buffing the crappy Mods" is a terrible idea, as that kind of thinking leads only to powercreep, which is already a bit of an issue in Warframe, with more and more new guns starting to overshadow old guns save for a select few. 

 

In fact I'd go so far as to say that that idea might actually be detrimental to the game in the long run, with many new players possibly being driven off due to the grind, enemy scaling, and insanely huge power gap between them and "Veterans."