Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

[Kaoru_Konneko]

I appreciate this; however could I ask you to stop nerfing my favorite of all time Trinity? She gets nothing but nerfed in most cases and aesthetics are only being made for other frames. Where is my Trin's love and fancies? 

 

[PRO LOBSTER TAIL SUPPORT UNION]

#STOP BOILING US!

[ThePresident777]

It's neither "homer's drinking bird" or syndicate rep grind.  It's the massive hole in DE's affinity code.  So, can both sides stop the gaslighting already?

 

Fix the affinity code and stop the nerfing the game to crap, please.

[TeliaRS643]

The biggest problem that was displayed with Viver farming had to have been caused by the syndicate system as a whole.  People -only- figured it out in response to the sheer scale and total imbalance of syndicate.  We're testers as much as players.  How the heck are we supposed to test something that you're expecting to take months to play through - in inclusion to having a pay/tradewall item (potatoes) halfway through each?  The sheer grind coupled with the fact that you lose rep for every advancement, and you also lose an exactly mirrored amount of rep with the opposing faction of the sigil you're wearing to have huge eximus death platoons coming after you, -and- the potato wall to actually get into the meat and potatoes of the rewards are all going way too far, even if this is supposed to take sacrifice.  It's a hamhanded approach, much like the approach made to dissuade viver farming, and I'm glad you realize you made a mistake in that.  I hope that you realize your mistake extends as far as your syndicate system and are willing to resolve both the nerfs to the already painfully-underpowered warframes and lessen the penalties and grind of the syndicate system, and look for suggestions to improve it.

If I had to make a suggestion of the syndicate system, I would say that it would be best to have the syndicate gains mission-level based, with incrementing gains per wave of endless mission types.  This would make it easier to tweak and adjust node-abusing tactics, and easier to balance the standing gains with the standing requirements.  Yes it might be a little imbalanced at first, but that's what playtesting is for, and if incremental gains for syndicate per-wave for endless types goes well (IE +100 on wave 1, +110 on wave 2 totalling 210, and so forth), it would likely also lay the groundwork for incremental credit gains for mission rewards, because being paid 2000 credits for 5 minutes or 50 minutes is dumb too.  Hasn't Lotus ever heard of 'overtime?'

TL;DR: Revert warframe nerfs, lessen syndicate grind/walls, mission-based standing gains plz

PS: It would also be nice to have a method of gaining standing without gaining allied/opposed/enemy standing in rarer alert missions that follow the incremenetal endless mission standing gains that I suggested.

[Axianamus]

Interception specific maps, such as earth's maps, would be fantastic. That one earth map with all the bridges and whatnot is fantastic. It's large and open, and yet with the layout and ziplines it's quick to get around. I think every game mode should have a unique tileset. Not just reuse the same defence maps already there.

[Avalona]

I feel the need to cart this point out and slam it into your face, DE.

 

Syndicate isn't a problem, syndicate is THE problem.

 

You can nerf everything you want, as long as the rep we need to grind is higher than getting to mastery 18, everyone will keep spamming Viver.

 

No, killing Viver still isn't a solution. Viver gone? Everyone will still spam every map they can find. If we must we'll spam the same thing in Augustus (same tile as Viver).

 

No, changing game mode still isn't a solution. You have changed Viver, and look what happened? We still grind it, and we'll keep doing so.

 

Now look what happened, you toss nerf hammer around and killed 3 frames almost completely, and we are still desperately trying to farm Viver!

 

Why, you may ask? Why is the community so hell-bent on farming as much EXP as possible in a scale never-before-seen, even though the Viver map itself has been here since Eris was added? Why now and never before?

 

It's simple, we want to get something out of syndicates, but the grindwall is too ridiculous, and therefore we're forced to resort to more extreme measure that is called macro gaming.

 

Huh? why are we doing this? Here is your answer : We are driving the market. Ultimately, working economy is what causes activities in the game itself.

 

Why do you keep on adding new weapons and frames and making new primes? It works the same, you want activity to happens. We farm the parts, we sell them to other players, we keep the economy flowing, we create those new weapons, we talk about their performance in-game, we try to break a new record, we keep the game running.

 

By denying us access to fast reputation gain (and therefore denying access to syndicate rewards), you will only kill the game. We're desperately trying to drive the economy now with faction mods trading and performance test, much like how we bite our lips and grinded void towers in RNG-induced frustration for prime parts.

 

What else do you think we can do once we've everything else in the game?

 

Don't take us wrong. Instead of treating our anger as "devs bashing", try to think of it as "we're treating your game very seriously". There's nothing more valuable than loyal customer base. Don't make any more mistake, DE.

[ensignvidiot]

 

Don't take us wrong. Instead of treating our anger as "devs bashing", try to think of it as "we're treating your game very seriously". There's nothing more valuable than loyal customer base. Don't make any more mistake, DE.

 

We are passionate about how we Frag our enemies. Be it with Void-Powers, 360-NoScopes, Strategy, or button massing; we all seek the purest and most fun method of it all.

 

+1

[SanguineSavant]

Honored Tenno,

 

Well, we screwed that one up, didn’t we? In our panic to address exploits we’ve rolled out some half-baked changes, and didn’t test them nearly enough. Worse - we didn’t communicate the changes and explain the rationale.

 

We’ve plugged some holes and we’re running out of fingers. I’m sorry you had to see all of this, its quite embarrassing. I’m sure you’re frustrated. I am deeply sorry for messing up your game.

 

Here’s where we’re at:

 

We’re going to do some map fixes AND we’re going to fix a few bugs with line of sight changes and let it ride until we have a cohesive and well communicated set of changes to roll out.

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

We will be changing the dreaded map somewhat today… the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit. Instead, spawning will be staggered to help address enemy clumps, but again - ‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

I know yesterday’s changes have exposed deep frustrations from our Tenno - from Syndicates to mission types, and poetically it all began with our first Warframe: Excalibur. With your voices ringing in our ears we intend to remedy as soon as possible. I look forward to reading your reactions to the next series of hotfixes (I have my asbestos underpants on now).

 

YYY YY   YY YYYYYYY YYY

(-DE_Steve)

 

(Ninja edit after reading thread)

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

With abilities, again, things are not staying as they are currently - as I said above *until we have a cohesive set of changes* We're going to try to entangle this and do it once without driving like my grandma on an icy road.

 

Syndicates will get cooler over time. It was some character and opposition. It is not a 'whole new way to play' and never was pitched as such. It's a layer, a purpose, to the existing and future game-modes we are adding.

 

Steve. You have the beard, a questionably colored summer wardrobe and an avatar that raises all kinds of questions. What WILL you do next?

Just wanted to say keep it up and look forward to more. Can't wait to see what you feed the hypetrain tomorrow.

[Kinjeto]

Honored Tenno,

 

Well, we screwed that one up, didn’t we? In our panic to address exploits we’ve rolled out some half-baked changes, and didn’t test them nearly enough. Worse - we didn’t communicate the changes and explain the rationale.

 

We’ve plugged some holes and we’re running out of fingers. I’m sorry you had to see all of this, its quite embarrassing. I’m sure you’re frustrated. I am deeply sorry for messing up your game.

 

Here’s where we’re at:

 

We’re going to do some map fixes AND we’re going to fix a few bugs with line of sight changes and let it ride until we have a cohesive and well communicated set of changes to roll out.

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

We will be changing the dreaded map somewhat today… the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit. Instead, spawning will be staggered to help address enemy clumps, but again - ‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

I know yesterday’s changes have exposed deep frustrations from our Tenno - from Syndicates to mission types, and poetically it all began with our first Warframe: Excalibur. With your voices ringing in our ears we intend to remedy as soon as possible. I look forward to reading your reactions to the next series of hotfixes (I have my asbestos underpants on now).

 

YYY YY   YY YYYYYYY YYY

(-DE_Steve)

 

(Ninja edit after reading thread)

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

With abilities, again, things are not staying as they are currently - as I said above *until we have a cohesive set of changes* We're going to try to entangle this and do it once without driving like my grandma on an icy road.

 

Syndicates will get cooler over time. It was some character and opposition. It is not a 'whole new way to play' and never was pitched as such. It's a layer, a purpose, to the existing and future game-modes we are adding.

___________________________________

You know it Steve. You damn well know it. Take your time polishing your updates, before you release. Now can we talk about distributing the Syndicate reputation rewards over a larger area in Defense, Survival & Interception and in higher waves. Can we talk about mechanical difficulty in enemies.

___________________________________

Can we talk about turning some of the levels like SABOTAGE, EXTERMINATE and using the level into an obstacle course. Where did all the rest of the ideas go that people mentioned for environmental hazards?

___________________________________

Can we talk about (http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Infested_Ship) using fog to obscure this tileset like the Halloween event?

COME ON, STEVE. Where is that creative director brain of yours? Oh yes, That Trinity thing once, twice, three times now.

- You've even made Mogamu make a video.

 

Edited November 14, 2014 by Kinjeto

[BelugaNinja]

I know you guys already know this but I figured it would be a good perspective on how most of the quiet level headed players think.

 

The sad part is it sounds like DE disappointed him so badly he just finished crying.

[VanguardT-EN-]

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

 

I'm still laughing to this ^

[Helleborr]

Let's add a bit more perspective to "press 4 to win is bad" argument.

 

First, have you considered that in a game where you can simultaneously be engaged with a hundred enemies it makes sense for you to be able to deal with those enemies? WoW has a 10-target cap on AoE abilities, because players are never supposed to be engaging more than that amount of enemies at the same time, be it solo questing, 5-man dungeons or raids. That's also why WoW is focused on a heavily controlled encounter design, something absent from a procedurally generated dungeon crawler like Warframe.

 

Second, have you considered that perhaps spamming one ability is used because that's what's viable? I mean we don't get much ability synergy in this game. Novas don't spam MP because it's an "IWIN" button, I'd even argue that they spam it at all. It's an ability that's supposed to deal with a large number of enemies. and Novas use that when they encounter large numbers of enemies. You know why Null Star is never used? I think you do. And have you considered it interacting with MP in some way, like if NS could deal a lot more damage to targets affected by MP? People use sets of abilities in games where they have a "rotation" to speak of, with abilities having synergy. People in this game spam the same skill because others are either useless for the current situation, or altogether.

 

You know, Limbo illustrates perfectly why you should have never even went the way of trying to nerf AOE room clears. See, Limbo is a great frame, with ability synergy and some elegant gameplay potential. His problem? He's only strong when dealing with one target at a time. This is why he's perfect for capture missions, but can't hold his own in a defense. And you know why that is a problem? Because Capture missions aren't even comparable to Defense missions in terms of rewards, which is why Limbo, that's good at doing certain things, is just bad for doing what you usually do in Warframe, which means he's "bad overall".

 

See, this is the fact about your game that you don't seem to admit: Warfarme, with its random drops per enemy, exp per enemy, rooms full of enemies, mission modes with endless waves of enemies IS A GAME ABOUT KILLING AS MANY ENEMIES AS POSSIBLE IN THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME. This is why Everyone loves Rhino and Nova, and you barely ever see Hydroid or Ember.

 

And guess what, if you keep making a game that's about killing hordes of enemies while nerfing our ability to do so, you'll just be killing the fun. Your game isn't about skill, because I could take Banshee and go elegantly assassinating a ship full of Grineer, but a team of 4 people with a Vauban would spend that same time on Sechura, and end up getting scores more of exp, mods, credits and pretty much anything you play this game for. So, if the most rewarding experience in your game is this killing hordes of enemies thing, why such prejudice against abilities that help people do so? You made a game for Homer's bird, and now say he's not supposed to be able to play it. Have you tried making Slash Dash deal quad damage to Blinded enemies? Or Mag's Pull proccing Radiation on enemies recently affected by Shieald Polarize?

 

You know, I remember I had great fun with a mastery rank challenge that required stealth kills. I was sad to discover there is ZERO incentive to complete any other mission in the game like that, if instead you can just gun down everything in a shorter time. And no, you don't "fix" that by taking away people's ability to gun down everything, you fix that by rewarding them more for stealth completions, for instance. The Rescue mission rework was a step in the right direction, but the rewarded specters are so useless compared to huge manufacture costs, that it all defeated its own purpose.

 

TL;DR: People spam AOE kill abilities, because AOE killing is the most profitable action in this game. And people spam same abilities to achieve that because there is zero reason to weave in any other abilities. So perhaps instead of taking a radical populist stance like "AOE Room Clear is Bad, Period", you should design a game that encourages and rewards people for doing other things.

[Daeiavel]

I've heard stories about DE nerfing anything that's remotely fun. I was sure it's just salty people who got something they liked nerfed. But you know what? They were right. You are actively trying to make Warframe as boring, tedious, grindy and uninteresting as it can possibly be. RNG drops, grinding to be able to grind, and now syndicates that take months to max out unless you get affinity boosters. I regret ever buying platinum and spending time on this game.

[egypt]

I think the main problem may be the tedious grinding for syndicate rep, which was why the farming began in the first pace I suppose...

i don't know which game have you been playing so far .. but the farming has never stoped

[Dualstar]

Well, thanks for admitting it was a knee jerk.

 

...and i got nothing to say that hasnt already been put on the first page. Much less the following 13.

 

Looking forward to further syndicate changes, and hopefully reversions of ability changes.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Dualstar

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Okay, are there any plans to revert the interception changes? Because they make all interception missions harder and less fun. And some missions (Archwing interception in Uranus!) even worse.

[Pentastic]

First of all, on LoS specifically, I think a better option would be to reduce range behind cover. It's very important to know that when you cast that life saving stun, that Tech about to poke his supra around a pillar 5 feet from you will actually get stunned. Especially when you're talking about higher level or T4 enemies that melt even the hardest protections very quickly.

 

But personally I don't quite agree that the x-ray insta kill everything in 70 meters is something that needs to be removed. It, more than anything, screams ultimate. Especially considering that large portions of the game involve dealing with many enemies.

 

If you're really serious about making these abilities less afk farmy, they need to be metered properly as was said in the OP. Energy, because of the large amounts of efficiency and regen we have access to does not cut it.

 

You're faced with 3 options:

1) Nerf all ultimates so that they no longer feel like ultimates.

2) Redo power efficiency or the energy system as a whole.

3) Meter those big abilities in another way, such as a rage meter perhaps with bonuses from melee kills or headshots etc.

 

2 and 3 will both allow big abilities to be satisfyingly powerful. But it's important to note that some redesign of many frame ability sets should definitely be done as part of this initiative.

 

For instance Excal, Radial Blind even in its gimpy state is hands down the best thing he brings to high level encounters. But it's not his ultimate. And javelin even before the nerf is hard to consider an ultimate past level 30. Under a rage meter system I'd be pretty disappointed if he still had the gimpy new blind as a regular skill and his ultimate can't even hold up in T3E. Same thing if I'm paying 100 energy for it.

 

Regardless of the outcome it should be understood that this can only be done as a large undertaking, requiring eyes on the whole picture and not just how many times a player can press 4 in a minute. Even things like increasing drop rates should be considered if enemy death rates are going down across the board.

[fractal_magnets]

Th2ank2s S2tev2e.

Ho2w d2o y2ou 2tur2n t2his2 of2f?

 

Never did Viver out of respect of my own free time.

Never bothered levelling syndicates out of respect of my own sanity.

I really hope you make these time-sinks worth it.

They have been a joke from the beginning.

 

Maybe next time you don't say yes, when the chat begs you in the dev stream, and actually produce a working product?

 

If hubs aren't ready by 15.5 for the love of Lotus don't push them out!!!

 

Player boredom v player sanity... A delicate balance indeed.

I don't envy you guys.

 

Honour be with you, Tenno.

[sorq]

It was never the warframes' fault for having those ultimates.

The problem started when syndicate reputation is tied to affinity.

[CGs_Knackie]

Otherwise you can attribute XP per WAVE including affinity bonus and syndicate rank. Wave 1 give us 500 pts (without affinity bonus and syndicate rank 1 so more with bonus and higher rank), wave 2 give us 900 pts with the same conditions, wave 3 1400 etc. Higher waves give us many XP therefore players'd be forced to continu if they want to win more as another endless mission.

[OneMember]

Removing the "X-Ray" abilities from few frames makes content that should be easy (with maxed gear) more of a challenge, but looks like it't done without thinking of how it reflects on end game content.

Soon we may only have couple frames left that aren't "non-factor" tenos for late game.

 

Guessing all of us have alredy seen Mogamu's video and are now just waiting info from devs on what will be done to the Syndicate system.

Shall we guess/hope that whole MR, exp and Syndicate systems will get total overhaul?

Edited November 14, 2014 by OneMember

[Arlayn]

 

Oh boy, Excalibur. You guys improve his kit, and chopped the guy back in less than one month? You guys just basically revert Excal's ult back to preU15, scratch that, you guys made it even worse than the RJ before U15. Back before U15, Super Jump can be used to alleviate the aiming problem of the javelins, while boosting the number enemies affected by it. In U15, the synergy are stuck in a limbo (heh), as aiming was kinda no longer needed (it also make the abilities kinda broken on it's own, but the damage type make this skill age really, really fast). Now that you change the RJ to use LoS check, you guys are making RJ worse than pre-U15, complete with its own LoS problem and whether the synergy between RJ-SJ are still there or not.

 

 

Since when was RJ a thing? IT HAS NEVER BEEN A THING... The fact people keep complaining about an ability that is NEVER used if ever due to how its only to be used in low tier levels is ridiculous. Even then 99.99% of players use RJ wrong by staying still instead of leaping through the air, and using it with perfected timing. RJ is as hard as Limbo to use, but must be strategically used in low levels. If anything we don't need RJ the only abilities needed are jump, dash, and blind they work for everything, and the jump still makes excalibur amazing! I defend the LoS nerf 100% It was a needed good in the world to enforce the PROPER way to play Excalibur versus the 99% doing it wrong.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Arlayn

[Cynick]

Thanks for the post, it is appreciated. 

 

Now, all this computer hacking is making me thirsty. I think I'll order a TAB. 

[TheErebus.]

I'm seeing a lot of posts on this thread saying "You still don't understand that the issue here is the syndicate standing" yet he clearly states that:

 

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

[MithrilDragon]

It seems the wiser of players are making the most valid point in tackling this issue: separate affinity and reputation gain, one should not affect the other.

 

Reputation gain would feel better if it was set to the completion of a mission with a random bonus for a special action based on the mission type (similar to the affinity bonus randomly given to a mission).  If you're doing a rescue, give a rep bonus for killing a warden or not setting off the alarm in the detention area.  In an interception, give a bonus for not allowing the enemy to get over X%.  Survival: extract after X minutes with X% life support.  Just make them reachable challenges that might make the syndicate say, "Wow!  You did THAT?"

 

I'd also change the affinity bonuses.  Instead of a random one during a mission, make the bonuses smaller but each can be obtained during a mission.  This way if you do a mission and manage to get 30 kills with your primary and 10 with melee, you'd get (maybe) 1000 affinity total (500 + 500).

 

If these ideas would be implemented, I'd suggest changing the 'undetected kills' from affinity to extermination rep bonus.

[Dr.Foxy]

I don't understand why all this change is necessary, when all of it could be easily avoided by simply adding cooldowns to various abilities like Radial Javelin or Polarize.

 

 

Frankly, Trinity's just being punished for doing her job.

 

If anybody in DE's listening. Please. Eliminate Viver, Rework Mag and Excalibur to be more viable, but please. Trinity doesn't deserve this LoS staring-contest horseradish for being able to do her job effectively. I know for a fact people. A lot of people would pay money if they needed to, to use the three frames the way she was prior to this "Hotfix".