Tar Moas: Specific And Technical Feedback [Image-Heavy]

[Rydian]

To responders in general... moving doesn't reduce damage taken in Warframe.  If it did there'd be a point, but right now the "But you're standing still" cries just seem like a cop-out, given that I showed how small of a reaction window you have to dodge in realistic situations.

 

 

 

One small problem: 

 

You are playing at Level 48-50 ranges, based on your video footages. That would be a bit normal for enemies to start dealing more damage.

Two of the clips are from that level range on Pluto (where the damage is quickly noticed making for easy recordings), others are from Eris, and the timing ones are mostly from Jupiter.  Hitbox issues were mostly noticed on Ceres (multi-level platforms close to eachother), I just wasn't recording at the time.

 

Here's a clip from Eris, wave 11, that I just took today in response to your post.

 

 

Enemy level 43, as Hydroid.  Killed in 2-3 frames by... something.

A magnetic proc is very noticeable and brings my total life pool down to ~825.

 

 

So things don't need to be 48-50 to kill in the blink of an eye, especially given that infested just love to stack their bad effects nowadays (which is partially what this thread is about, multiple things combining to make a fight much harder than it should be).

 

 

The only problem with Tar Mutalist MOAs is the projectile is a heavy hitting one, whereas the tar itself is minor. 

Just reducing the impact damage leaves some issues.

 

1 - The hitbox on the tar projectile is still too large.  There have been multiple times where I was on a higher level, but got heavily damaged by a tar projectile that spawned a tar pit on a lower level.  Ceres's defense map is one such example. I intended to mention that the devs should look at the vertical component of the attack but it looks like that got lost in one of the drafts, wondering where I should add it back in now...

 

2 - Like most DoTs, the residual damage is based on the initial impact damage.  The initial impact damage needs to be toned way down (in waves <15, it is still not to the point where it should be one-shotting a player with such a fast attack that has such a huge hitbox), but the residual damage needs to be a higher percentage so that standing in the tar is still a bad idea.  If the only thing changed is the impact damage being reduced to not one-shot then you're left with tar that barely does damage but is still fired everywhere without adequate warning.

 

 

And as for your three examples with regards to how fast they shoot, they do have a bit of a wind-up animation (meaning you could add on around 0.3-0.4 seconds to your values). And they do have a distinct sound when they shoot it (granted, it gets drowned out by all the other noises), not to mention that 0.7-0.8 seconds is a good amount of time to react, given that human reaction time is 0.2 seconds (although this would not apply to tar projectiles shot from behind). 

This is one of those "works in theory, not applicable in practice" issues.

 

The recordings and timings go from the first frame the attack (or the light indicating the attack) appears to the frame it hits.  The windup motions are barely notable from normal (unlike, say, heavy gunner ground slam motions being noticeably different than normal), and as you admitted the sounds get lost in the crowd.

 

If these things were enemies you tended to fight solo, then yeah learning their specific movement patterns (as if you were Steve Irwin or something) and sounds would make sense.  But that's not the case, this is the infested, and these are not basic infested.  If you're fighting Tar Moas, then chances are you're fighting a hoard you need to deal with a well.

 

This is why I suggest slowing their attacks and other things too, not just nerfing the damage.  Them creating tar pits that slow and apply some damage is fine, adds variety and is neat.  Them one-shotting you at a level before heavies do, with an attack that cannot be reasonably dodged if you're standing still when you see it... is not neat.

 

 

 

Mainly think they need to be made less snipey. Their high-precision firing is a bit odd, considering the method of delivery.

Their damage definitely needs to be reduced, but yeah the rest of the suggestions are various ways to make them less like snipers.

 

 

 

Thing is, he is standing there, and letting stuff hit him.

For !!!SCIENCE!!!

</df>

 

If I'm facing an attack head-on with my camera facing it (standing still) and it's the only attack that I'm taking (segregating myself from the others), it's easier to see the speed and damage of the attack for measurement.

 

I had plenty of instances of me being blindsided, hit by something not even visible until I'm suddenly in a tar puddle in the span of 2 frames, but those don't do much to quantify the issue.  Those don't have a segregated unit of damage, they don't show how fast it is, etc.

 

I just assume that people responding would have experience with these monsters, 'ya know? :P  I assumed that I wouldn't have to point out every single aspect of a monster to players, which is why some things weren't mentioned.

 

The fact that I stood still to take the attacks is why I bothered to do testing to show how fast the attacks are afterwards.

[Guest]

One-shotted by a level 25 Tar Moa which instantly removed 540 shields and 540 health from my Excalibur. The initial last damage has to be heavily tuned down; other than that, Tar Moas are perfect.

[onespirit5777]

For people that like having fun playing a great game, Tar Moas nerf the greatness of this game - Remember the good ole days when Nova was awesome. She is so nerfed might as well get rid of it. Nothing like having your Iron Skin instantly disabled by corpus - Another epic fail. Who ever thought of this should be banned from decision making.

[Bobtm]

To responders in general... moving doesn't reduce damage taken in Warframe.  If it did there'd be a point, but right now the "But you're standing still" cries just seem like a cop-out, given that I showed how small of a reaction window you have to dodge in realistic situations.

 

>snip<

 

Moving actually does reduce damage taken in Warframe, both through one movement's mechanics and in a correlative way.  For the latter, moving either lessens the amount of times you are stricken,or reduces them to zero if done well enough.  Basically you're taking less damage through avoidance, that does inherently count as a reduction through player actions taken.  The former, you actually take reduced damage from all sources by a fair degree during a roll.

 

As for the "how small of a reaction window" part, where I come from .5 seconds is a very, very long time to react.  In a general thing I've noticed, the difficulty complaints on nearly all fronts with a myriad of aspects in this game all stem from players both not moving properly or necessarily understanding all of the inherent mechanics of Warframe.

  _______________

 

However, with all that being said, I'm not the only person playing this game.  It seems pretty clear due to the direction of this thread's posts that most players genuinely don't enjoy this enemy type's characteristics.  Despite my own disagreeances, I'm not the only one playing the game.  So I hope it does change.  Sometimes the masses do need to be ignored, but I don't feel that this is one of the times.

 

I still think people should just get better at moving though.  :p

Edited December 7, 2014 by Bobtm

[LeoLeonardoIII]

My biggest and main problem with the tar moas is the insane on-hit damage that they do. They should not be freaking one-shotting people out of NOWHERE.

[TheFapman69]

The damage they do at 30+ is all I really feel needs to be nerfed very badly. They do WAY too much for how accurate and fast the projectiles are. And the range doesn't help at all when you're trying to deal with 200 other infested right in front of you and have no chance to deal with the 1 Tar MOA that kills you from way off the side of the screen. As already suggested, why not just make the projectile do 70 - 80% of how much it does now, and increase the pit damage. I would rather die for my own fault of standing in the pit than instantly dying trying to run to pick up an energy orb.

[Rydian]

Moving actually does reduce damage taken in Warframe, both through one movement's mechanics and in a correlative way.

The first only exists in rolling.

 

For the latter, moving either lessens the amount of times you are stricken,or reduces them to zero if done well enough.

The impact appears to be one hit, the damage over time from the tar is actually increased in number of hits if you choose to roll instead of dodge because you stay in the tar longer due to the greatly-slowed animations (opposed to jumping where you clear the tar quicker).

 

 

As for the "how small of a reaction window" part, where I come from .5 seconds is a very, very long time to react.  In a general thing I've noticed, the difficulty complaints on nearly all fronts with a myriad of aspects in this game all stem from players both not moving properly or necessarily understanding all of the inherent mechanics of Warframe.

 

I still think people should just get better at moving though.  :p

Hate to sound too harsh here because you're generally being rational about this, but... prove it.  Words of "nuh uh you're just bad" with nothing tangible are not an acceptable counter for the images and numbers I've already presented (and I'm tired of them on this forum in general).

 

I've done the work for my side of the argument, if you want to step up to the plate than I expect you to at least put in the same work I did, not just toss out anecdotes.

 

Do your own recordings, and prove that 0.45-0.87 seconds of a reaction window is enough to dodge the attack once it's started.  Don't start moving until you see the attack, and once you do see the attack, be able to dodge it in a fashion accessible to every frame (i.e. not power-based, and not requiring a movement speed higher than 1.2).

 

(If you'd like info on how I've done this, I don't mind writing a little guide on it because examining the game frame-by-frame has helped examine other player curiosities before.)

 

 

However, with all that being said, I'm not the only person playing this game.  It seems pretty clear due to the direction of this thread's posts that most players genuinely don't enjoy this enemy type's characteristics.  Despite my own disagreeances, I'm not the only one playing the game.  So I hope it does change.  Sometimes the masses do need to be ignored, but I don't feel that this is one of the times.

My main issues are the damage and speed of the attack.  If an attack is fast and out of nowhere, it needs to not kill.  If an attack can kill immediately, it needs to be visible and able to be dodged reasonably.

 

I'm also annoyed by how tanky they are and the distance they keep, but I did some recordings and tests (not shown here) and determined they have about 75% of the HP of an ancient healer at any given time which seems more reasonable to me than I would have expected and it doesn't seem many other players think they're overly-tanky.

[Bobtm]

I've done the work for my side of the argument, if you want to step up to the plate than I expect you to at least put in the same work I did, not just toss out anecdotes.

 

Do your own recordings, and prove that 0.45-0.87 seconds of a reaction window is enough to dodge the attack once it's started.  Don't start moving until you see the attack, and once you do see the attack, be able to dodge it in a fashion accessible to every frame (i.e. not power-based, and not requiring a movement speed higher than 1.2).

 

(If you'd like info on how I've done this, I don't mind writing a little guide on it because examining the game frame-by-frame has helped examine other player curiosities before.)

 

The bolded and underlined part is the fatal flaw here, you should never not be moving in Warframe.  At least as far as I'm concerned.

 

As far as the "prove it" part is concerned, it may be a while before I ever mess with such things.  I'm fairly new to PC gaming in general, having been exclusively a console player for over 20 years' time.  I couln't even figure out how to make a simple mic work, nor how to download Teamspeak...  I've got very little patience for messing around with stuff like that these days.  From what little I do know, doing more things at a time on a computer puts more strain on it, if running recording software would impact my framerate it could easily throw off my timings as is.

 

Maybe I'll mess with stuff like that at some point.  But it isn't something I consider to be a high priority.

 

I'm basing the 0.5 seconds of reaction time purely on averages, having reaction times that fast is not outstanding or unreal by any merit.  Playing fighting games requires swifter reaction time than that, as well as snap precision when it comes to the button presses.  Bullet hell shooters are another where you need to be able to take in a lot of information and continue moving constantly in ways to avoid being stricken.

 

Doing the test you want done is literally playing the game wrong.  Fast paced games aren't the type where you sit around and only react or do things in counter, it's about preparing for things ahead of time.  Moving fast has always interfered with the foes targetting in Warframe, so by moving you already vastly reduce your chances of encountering an issue.

 

If this means you don't consider my own take on this valid, then that's totally fine.  But it's clear we're both coming at this issue from different angles.  Standing still ever is always "doing it wrong" when playing Warframe, as far as I'm concerned.  A player should always be moving and predicting all enemy actions at every given point in time, making sure to minimize risk of failure in all situations.

 

All in all though, I'm not against seeing these foes being weakened in some way as I noted above.  The Infested are already finally beginning to present an appropriate level of challenge.  One to the point where making tweaks like some of those you've suggested (I'm still vehemently against slowing them down) are totally okay.  Then again there was en masse panic over the Mutalist Osprey as well, who were barely ever dangerous to begin with.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Bobtm

[Renegade343]

Contents from post #26.

Level 43 is still at high levels, which would make sense for enemies to start dealing more damage. And you have the Magnetic status effect, which taints your evidence a slight bit in terms of Tar MOAs being overpowered, since Magnetic status effects sometimes goes a bit weird on shield values, especially on online matches. 

 

And then, the Tar MOAs actually have a distinct windup prior to the tar shots, which can be noticeable by its height shift. It actually crouches down by quite a bit before shooting. 

[Sixty5]

Try running Diamond Skin.

It gives Rad Resistance

[Riot_Inducer]

Well the only thing I really disagree with is the ability to dodge the projectile itself. Unless I am particularly close to the moa I usually have a good chance of avoiding the actual projectile/damage but there is really no way to avoid getting caught in the ensuing tar aoe however.

 

That said they *do* deal a bit too much damage, by level 20 or so they can start to 1 shot squishier frames even when modded with mid level redirection/vitality. So there certainly is something that needs addressing with the damage.

 

Overall though I think the biggest issue, with both moa varieties is that they're just too durable for their role/abilities. They've got 75% the health of an ancient but are ranged and have the most radical dodge of any enemy AND have a very powerful shockwave to deter melee attacks.

[bejuizb]

The worst thing about these enemies is that they can Rad proc. I was running an ODD with Mesa, and with the clusterf*ck of the whole Swarm FX and Bloom, coupled with the auras of dozens of mobs, I got hit with a proc in Peacemaker. I killed my entire team, their Kubrows, and possibly the cryopod (not sure, the mission instafailed after I massacred my team) within a span of half a second (the ulti was almost at max spool up). 

 

Safe to say that I was shouted at, threatened with reports, and suchlike. All because I can teamkill, and teamkill without intending to, thanks to bullsh!t like the Tar. 

[Awazx]

Tar Moas are unbalanced and need revision.

 

To the OP: excellent work. +1

[Awazx]

Thing is, he is standing there, and letting stuff hit him. 

 

Your comment is unnecessary.

 

OP has done an extraordinary job of collecting. This showing a real problem that deserves attention from DE. I think he deserves something more constructive comments.

 

¿Letting him hit stuff? True, but standing still is not synonymous with playing badly. Moreover, to record video evidence could not have done it in motion.

 

In this thread you're talking about a mechanism that is broken. It is not normal (or fun) die in one blow. Even less, blow comes when no defense.

 

Let us focus on the issue and not divagemos with unnecessary comments.

[Awazx]

Whatever you say man, but I always keep an eye out for mutalist ospreys. 

 

What things have to read. Comments like yours (and other pearls of wisdom that are read in this thread) make the desire to collaborate in forums loss.

 

"... always keep an eye out for ospreys mutalist." You mean this seriously? Or do you like writing here is free you do not mind meditate a little things?

 

If you are surrounded by 50 enemies, one of your teammates is about to die, the CryoPod you have two seconds to live, you are in a whirlwind of colors, energies and effects of a Vortex of Vauban and proc status slash you is tearing the guts ... How many eyes need?

 

I think there is much "expert" around here that does nothing.

[CapedBaldy]

I say this and I will always say it, it's very difficult to talk about Infested as a stand alone unit. It's far too easy for us to say, keep moving, single this out, prioritize that unit, treat it like an elite. They can and will come in hordes, with a slew of buffs making each other nigh invincible, the buffing unit can be hiding somewhere odd where your gun won't reach and it will be far too hazardous to do so without Handspring or CC nullification or rolling to remove swarms on you. Powers, our line of sight trumping tool (for now) are not effective with some frames with the energy draining Infested can do. and damage reduction buffs in general.

 

However, when a COMMON unit can be singled out like this, with abilities and capabilities that can be considered Eximus standard without even talking about the horde itself and the role it plays in it, something is very wrong. Do we see people complaining about Swarm Moas, Boilers or Broodmothers? Not too much, those for the most part are fine. Swarm Moas are annoying, but okay as support units. Boilers and Broodmothers are quite nice design.

 

Tar Moas are not okay.

[Awazx]

One-shotted by a level 25 Tar Moa which instantly removed 540 shields and 540 health from my Excalibur. 

 

For "experts": this is exactly the problem. Focus on the issue and if they are not contributing anything useful to the OP, better not write anything

 

Thanks Mokunen.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Awazx

[CapedBaldy]

 

What things have to read. Comments like yours (and other pearls of wisdom that are read in this thread) make the desire to collaborate in forums loss.

 

"... always keep an eye out for ospreys mutalist." You mean this seriously? Or do you like writing here is free you do not mind meditate a little things?

 

If you are surrounded by 50 enemies, one of your teammates is about to die, the CryoPod you have two seconds to live, you are in a whirlwind of colors, energies and effects of a Vortex of Vauban and proc status slash you is tearing the guts ... How many eyes need?

 

I think there is much "expert" around here that does nothing.

 

Yes, I do mean it seriously, I keep an eye out for them when I can. All my posts are thought out, at least a little, before I write them. That post was a response to the guy saying that if we nerfed Tar Moas, they'll end up being like Mutalist Ospreys, overly nerfed. I'm showing him that's not the case and people (at least me) do take note of these units, so it would be fine to hit Tar Moas with a bit of nerfs. I'm not sure if you're reading my posts properly, and you are the kind of people that make my 'desire to collaborate in the forum lost', missing the point completely, insulting me in the process, testing my patience and making me explain again and again.

 

I have played against the new Infested, but I haven't done so in defense (don't want to do it because Tar Moas) but mostly in survival, so I don't do 'nothing'. I never consider myself expert. I try to be as honest as I can.

 

I can't help but think you're trying to insult me for no reason.

 

EDIT: I don't mind if you miss the point, do not insult me in the process, many people miss the point, because of how things are worded in arguments. I, however will explain as many times as I need to so you can understand what I'm trying to say, but when you show this absolute lack of effort on your part to contribute to the discussion and resort to insulting me and assuming negative things about people, I, and other people will be displeased. You are the one who's treating 'writing in here is free so I not meditate at all'.

Edited December 8, 2014 by CapedBaldy

[Liminal]

"learn2dodge" is fine and everything, but in Infested tilesets it gets a "little" hard. Not to mention they don't shoot a single blob, but 3, which makes it even more complicated. And of course the fact that you can't see crap in Infested missions because of endless auras, bees and eximus effects doesn't help either.

 

Also, moving doesn't really help if it's just walking, you gotta run/slide/roll, things that prevent you from shooting, and since infested are all over the damn place, jumpìng into a group of 5 chargers it's not usually the reasonable thing to do.

 

This guys could be somewhat fine if added to a ranged, less numerous faction that showed up in open spaces.

[BrazilianJoe]

Camping on high ground is bad strategy, and enemies will gradually get smart enough to make it not viable, OP is partially guilty of shooting itself in this part. 

 

That said, the feedback is very thorough, and I feel TAR MOAs are a bit op. I think the projectiles should be eggshells which land first, and explode later. It should do half of the damage it does now. Shooting the things would make them explode. The eggshell should be sensitive to powers such as Loki's disarm. Mirage's trap should be castable on it. The eggshell would still damage the player, but enemies as well. 

[fatpig84]

That is why Loki radial disarm exist.

[Renegade343]

Your comment is unnecessary.

For one thing, all that really shows that the projectile damage should be decreased (and maybe standing around is not the best decision in playing the game), not all the other things that the original poster said to tweak the Tar Mutalist MOA. 

 

And also: That is an open map that he is showing, so those pieces of evidence are also flawed in the fact that in practice, players have room to move around a bit despite having more enemies for the Infestation (granted, this may be less applicable as more and more enemies spawn). 

 

And recording video evidence could not be done in motion? I would then like to ask, for instance, how would people be able to film war crime footages without moving around? Or, in the context of Warframe, how inaccurate the Corpus are prior to their accuracy change?

 

The point is: I am not arguing against tweaks to the Tar Mutalist MOA, but from the evidence provided, it really shows that projectile damage should be decreased, a possible decrease to the AoE radius, and a good tip: Never stand around in high-level Infested defence. 

[Awazx]

I do not understand something. I say this with all respect. In this thread:

 

-Do not argue if good strategy be in high positions or not.

 

-Not discusses if OP is good player or not.

 

-Not discusses if Warframe is a racing game and you should be continually moving or not.

 

Real problem. Location:

 

1. You go to battle with 540/540 (Shields / Life).

2. You get a single stroke of a Tar Mutualist.

3. You instantly loses one stroke 540/540 (Shields / Life)

4. You die instantly.

 

Results:

 

1. Is not related to the player's skill.

2. It is not related to in high positions or no. The player has 540/540 (Shields / Life) you should know how to manage.

 

Conclusions:

 

1. Tar Mutualist needs revision.

2. It is probable that this mechanism is a bug and need to report it to De.

 

You're welcome.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Awazx

[InertFurry]

Dear everyone saying OP is not playing the game right:
 

OP is not dodging, and up on a high place for two, scientifically sound reasons.

A: Data isolation. Tar Moas can hit you up on a pillar whereas the rest of the Infested murder set cannot. This isolates the damage being dealt to entirely  the tar moa's damage.

B: Data Collection. OP has to be still in order to take this data. If OP is rolling, it jeopardizes proper recording. It's not clear if the point of recording is moving.  Regardless of whether a player is moving or not: he or she is going to get hit by a tar moa shot at one point

TL;DR, one-hits are bad game design regardless of where they occur. This is the central issue behind even quick-time events and is only acceptable in very constrained situations, like falling down pits in platformers.

[Rydian]

Thank you, Inertfurry and Awazx, for actually understanding scientific concepts and testing and not pulling cop-outs.  Some of the responses in this thread so far that I've been skipping have been infuriatingly-ignorant and not even attempted to discuss the matter at hand.

 

 

 

Maybe I'll mess with stuff like that at some point.  But it isn't something I consider to be a high priority.

Person A: "This happens in X time, here's multiple recordings."

Person B: "No it happens in Y time."

Person A: "Where's the proof, the recording, any tangible data?"

Person B: "Too busy lately."

 

I don't suggest pushing claims you don't feel like proving, 'cause we're wasting time discussing this with no resolution because there's no data to compare, it's data versus anecdotes.

 

 

I'm basing the 0.5 seconds of reaction time purely on averages

You have not "averages", but "anecdotes".  The numbers I gave were a range from a number of measurements, showing the largest and smallest (including 3 just to show different angles of attack).

 

Like... I recorded a dodge roll.

 

 

The entire time of a dodge roll appears to be almost exactly 0.8 seconds.  Testing using in-game waypoints, it seems the dodge distance is a good 5 meters.  This means that the only way to completely dodge a tar attack aimed at you from a standstill is if you dodge almost the frame you see it, it's an attack from close to max range (so not one of the 0.45-0.5 timed attacks), and if your dodge direction (which is based on the character's facing direction, not the camera) is across the shorter edge of the tar to outstrip it (though I haven't done testing for the size of the tar pit in meters yet, it definitely looks like it's rectangular in game opposed to square).

 

(I will note that Mirage has a faster roll than all other frames, it's a passive bonus she has.)

 

 

Doing the test you want done is literally playing the game wrong.

Hey where's that client modification that lets me record all the data of a mission, and then go back and replay it perfectly in a 3D environment later, along with being able to move the camera so I can watch all the attacks from all angles?

</sarcasm>

 

Oh that's right, there is no such thing.

 

So if I want to record an attack I have to watch the attack, and if I want to measure how much damage a single attack does I have to make sure that it's the only attack I'm taking.  Both of those things are served by me standing a distance away from the infested and facing the attack.

 

 

If this means you don't consider my own take on this valid, then that's totally fine.

You have nothing but anecdotes, though.  Those are nowhere close to scientific data.  You have no actual tests, no proof of your statements, no recordings, no hard numbers.  Get some of those and then we can actually discuss and compare findings.

 

Like I said, I don't mind writing up a little guide on how to do frame-by-frame recordings and make gifs.  I've been meaning to do one eventually anyways since I do these so often lately.

 

I would like to compare findings with you and talk about actual reaction times and compare results and make observations about them.  But we can't with only one side of it.

 

 

Then again there was en masse panic over the Mutalist Osprey as well, who were barely ever dangerous to begin with.

Actually the ones we have now don't have the same stats as the ones initially released.  In the initial release, they were capable of killing everything that wasn't protected by Rhino's Iron Skin without fail, well before the high levels.  Their proc did, in the full 8 ticks, more health damage than any frame possesses.

 

And they were subsequently changed to stop doing that, giving us the version we have now,

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/270031-hotfix-1406/

 

I'll note that in Warframe, DoT damage is based on a percentage the initial attack damage.  So lowering both the initial damage and the fraction the DoT uses resulted in a huge drop in the DoT of fartsprays.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Level 43 is still at high levels, which would make sense for enemies to start dealing more damage.

Oh come on now...

 

Do I really need to record a gif of myself going around to other enemies of that level and taking less than 825 damage per attack?  'Cause Magnetic's proc is a 75% cut, leaving me with ~825 worth of health and shields (833 before the relatively-minor damage that caused the proc itself, thus the rounding since the UI did not update the shield value before the tar killed me).

 

 

And then, the Tar MOAs actually have a distinct windup prior to the tar shots, which can be noticeable by its height shift. It actually crouches down by quite a bit before shooting. 

A height shift?  You mean like they do for ground pounding, movement, and jumping in general? :P