Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Holeypaladin]

This is obviously a very heated topic, with people arguing for and against the iron skin improvement for various reasons.  For the hundredth post of this threat, I'd like to mention my compromise proposal: A primed iron skin ability only available to Rhino Prime.  Feel free to reference that topic, which I recently posted.

[Detheroc]

Rhino has an amazing CC ult. Mesa has no CC (without the augment), Trinity has none (single target stun), Mirage has that blind(with a cast time of 3 sec, original cast time and exploding ball, by no means a "panic skill"), Valkyr has a slow thats not primarly meant to slow. Rhino is the noobframe, it is how it is. His skill doesnt reduce damage, it mitigrates is completely until a certain number is reached. It has no duration, meaning minimal power duration doesnt hurt him at all, not even his ult. And why just his prime version? DE said they wanted to give primes better stats, but not on this level. With all frames you mentioned, except maybe Valkyr, you cant think that you are suddenly godmode once you activate the ability. You still have to think, same is with rhino.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Detheroc

[Azawarau]

the entire basis of your argument is that rhino cant face tank at high levels

 

Its already been shown that he can more than any frame except Valkyr who doesnt have much other option because shes made for that and trinity whos just OP

 

Theres also saryn whos just a step below rhino in tanking

 

If you can make it through 60 youre balanced enough

 

I feel like iron skin needs a rework as well but what youre asking for is an overbuff to rhino

Edited January 11, 2015 by Azawarau

[Zagrax]

I refuse to use rhino prime despite owning him because the tinfoil gold wrapper looks so hideous, I prefer to stick to my normal rhino. That being said, I've though that perhaps an incoming DPS limiter might be nice, it would make it so your iron skin is guaranteed to last under heavy fire for at least a -little- bit.

[trieuazn0]

1: i hope you do relize that rhino has not has his Codex updated since he was released, which was like 2 years ago.

 

2: have you tryed any of rhino's other abilitys?

 

3: Rhino has more then 2x default armour then Mesa with Mesa being at 65 (i think) and like 10x more armour then Mirarge (at 15) just think about that for a second

 

4: Please don't make the "Prime should be better then the default ones" because it would make the game too un-fair for those who have already max build their normal Rhino and choose not to move over.

 

5: are you asking for this change becasue rhino is to useless right now in game game becasue his one and only skill "iron skin" dose not make him god like after level 30+ and should make him God like till leve 100++

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

Sorry, but I think it's a really bad idea to give Prime version a completely different skill. Also changing the ability to copy another frame ability would be just lame.

 

The problem with Iron Skin is that it's ridiculously powerful at low-mid levels. And if they are going to change the way Iron Skin works they need to consider that as well.

 

I'm not a Rhino player, but I think the most reasonable change would be to make the Iron Skin protect against a certain number of hits instead of just having HP. Melee should count as 3 hits, and explosions count as 5 hits, also some other slower hitting weapons should count as 2 or 3. The number of hits it can withstand should be tested, because I really have no idea how much hits per second a frame takes, but probably it should be something like 50/75/100/150 depending on level of Iron Skin.

 

The other option might be to make it a toggleable ability with invincibility and energy drain, but it could probably be exploited a lot.

Edited January 11, 2015 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[Azawarau]

Mirage cant tank

Trinity (Not valkyr) and mesa should be toned down

 

Youre asking for an unreasonable buff

 

EDIT

 

Hysteria needs to be buffed to remove invi and actually make the damage and killing potential worth something

Edited January 11, 2015 by Azawarau

[spybot121]

Bruh.

[torngasoak]

Omg

 

"Rhino is good"

"Rhino as all"

 

 My English is very poor but i say the player is INSINCERE with rhino...

Before one say a fake build rhino^^ and nobody said anything^^ and after all play rhino yes yes....

 

i play Rhino 50% of my time, i'm full format with all my stuff and i have good laugh when i have read the players.

Just useless to speak with insincere player.

 

You don't play rhino...

 

A funny story:

 

in the french forum, i made a post about rhino and the reactions of the players where the same as here, insincere/hypocritical.  

After the debate on the forum i will play. I see a player who talk on the forum saying that Rhino is very OP.

the player wanted to make a t4 survivale 40+. i told him "Rhino P 1600-1900cc available" and the player

answer me  "you don't have a frame more useful??" THE JOKE!!!!

 

the players are insincere...

 

 

and again sorry for my poor English.

Edited January 11, 2015 by torngasoak

[sneakysnail]

Mirage cant tank

 

Valkyr and mesa should ne toned down

 

Youre asking for an unreasonable buff

valkyr already has been toned down a bit with the arrival of the nullifiers. going long against corpus or void just can't really be done now. infested were already pretty good against valkyr because of the energy drain. really grinieer is the only faction that valkyr can really last against and even then valkyrs hysteria isn't a top tier skill because of the lack or range, movement speed and damage drop off in the end game. hysteria is just for reviving and getting life support and while it might be OP for low level stuff you don't balance around low level because anything can be made to be OP against that.

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Would you mind linking me your old topic? Quite interested in the matter.

[SIDESTRE4M]

OP does again totally ignore the fact that Iron Skin makes him invulnerable to knockdowns and CC overall. It's not just about damage.

 

It's about the speed you can have with Rhino Prime + totally ignoring everything that can hamper you.

 

 

Yes, at some point (somewhere after official balance area) Iron Skin loses its royalty so that the player actually have to watch out for damage. DE can be nasty sometimes... :D

[bad4youLT]

the entire basis of your argument is that rhino cant face tank at high levels

 

Its already been shown that he can more than any frame except Valkyr who doesnt have much other option because shes made for that and trinity whos just OP

 

Theres also saryn whos just a step below rhino in tanking

 

If you can make it through 60 youre balanced enough

 

I feel like iron skin needs a rework as well but what youre asking for is an overbuff to rhino

I agree

Edited January 11, 2015 by bad4youLT

[sanj66]

I like rhino , hes my warframe of choose on nightmare and capture missions , where he really excels, but i just dont see the point of giving rhino invunreability iron skin back simply to stand there with a boltor prime shouting am a god, it achieves nothing but make life easier for ppl who refuse to learn the game.

and i can just use a loki with a scindo prime and achieve the same whats your point? and i mean do it better and easier, or a trinity or a valkyr or an ash.

[Azawarau]

valkyr already has been toned down a bit with the arrival of the nullifiers. going long against corpus or void just can't really be done now. infested were already pretty good against valkyr because of the energy drain. really grinieer is the only faction that valkyr can really last against and even then valkyrs hysteria isn't a top tier skill because of the lack or range, movement speed and damage drop off in the end game. hysteria is just for reviving and getting life support and while it might be OP for low level stuff you don't balance around low level because anything can be made to be OP against that.

Going long against corpus was incredibly difficult for valkyr already. Their DPS is extremely high and tears through every frame at a close range

 

The nullifiers are only a heavy killer because they strip her of even more armor and offensive damage/utility that could push her further

 

As for void. The damage output isnt as heavy so valkyr still does fine though the same issue of losing armor,damage,energy, and utility more than most frames is still there for her

 

Theres no issue against any faction except corpus  for valkyr as far as going long

 

Also

 

*Trinity

 

Not valkyr

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Invulnerable for certain amount of secs after activation similar to snow globe, so the buff truely would only effect high level play, just a thought.

[Azawarau]

Invulnerable for certain amount of secs after activation similar to snow globe, so the buff truely would only effect high level play, just a thought.

The issue with that is the IS>Stomp thing

 

Use iron skin and follow up with stomp

 

Kill things

 

Iron skin breaking so you do the same thing

 

lvl 100 enemies

 

IS>Stomp shoot wait till enemies ca shoot back and then spam 2 so you can stomp after

 

12/25 energy max range low or no power STR since its not needed

[RealPandemonium]

I love how when people compare an older option to an overpowered new option they ask for buffs instead of changing the newer option to be in line with the rest of the game.

[Holeypaladin]

Mirage cant tank

 

My mirage solo of ODS begs to differ.  As does my taking bombard hits to the face in T4 missions and ignoring them.

 

Armor as a stat is pretty worthless unless you have over 600, being able to take high damage is completely dependent on damage reduction abilities, which Rhino lacks at high levels.

 

When all you have to do is stay in the shadows and be invincible as a certain frame, that's really not much of a complicated thought process, so why should Rhino Prime be any different?

[Taranis49]

Perhaps an easy fix would be to buff Iron Skin, but make it so that it decreases his movement speed drastically, as well as draw more enemy aggro. 

 

Back when Warframe was released, Rhino was easily the tankiest frame. Now, he's been usurped from that role, and now I believe he's tied in 4th place as "tankiest frame" with Frost. 

 

I do indeed wish he could become the tankiest frame once more, as it fits his persona and modus operandi, but it must be kept in mind that we do not wish him to be a god frame. 

 

Horrible idea. A tank that can't keep pace with the unit is a useless one. Hell, it's the exact reason why real-world designs like the Maus or the P1000 Ratte never went anywhere (literally) or achieved anything.

 

Lowering his speed just ganks his viability like it did before Vanguard/Rhi Pri where the mission was done and he huffed and puffed his way to extraction like a three pack a day smoker while the rest of the team was already waiting there for the past thirty seconds.

 

OP does again totally ignore the fact that Iron Skin makes him invulnerable to knockdowns and CC overall. It's not just about damage.

 

It's about the speed you can have with Rhino Prime + totally ignoring everything that can hamper you.

 

Yes, at some point (somewhere after official balance area) Iron Skin loses its royalty so that the player actually have to watch out for damage. DE can be nasty sometimes... :D

 

"after the official balance area", yeah... no. It happens by the later planets in the solar system, nevermind T4 void and bombards (even outside endless missions) unless you gimp other aspects for power strength (which shouldn't be required for a skill to have late game viability), IS's cast animation lasts longer than it does otherwise.

 

Making it a percentage-based reduction with duration also means it scales better throughout the entirety of the game - makes it viable at higher levels, but it's no longer effective immunity to the point you can sleepwalk backwards through missions at lower levels. Hell, all of this was pointed out during the globe rework when it was originally just a flat HP bar.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Taranis49

[Beetamus]

OP does again totally ignore the fact that Iron Skin makes him invulnerable to knockdowns and CC overall. It's not just about damage.

 

It's about the speed you can have with Rhino Prime + totally ignoring everything that can hamper you.

 

 

Yes, at some point (somewhere after official balance area) Iron Skin loses its royalty so that the player actually have to watch out for damage. DE can be nasty sometimes... :D

If you think it's all about the speed for Rhino, I think you may be letting your munchkin show a little. Everything should be balanced, as much as it can be while being different. You should not be fast, quite tanky, with CC and buffs. Having said that, Rhino should be the tankiest by far, be the slowest and have his other abilities changed to fit the theme. The thing to remember is that people have different likes and playstyles, one is not better than the other. Some may take more skill, granted, but variety is good right?

[Holeypaladin]

Currently Rhino is tanky at low levels, paper-thin at high levels.  But it's higher level gameplay that I focus on, lately, so it doesn't matter how tanky he is at low levels if his iron skin is paper-thin and goes down in one hit at high levels on both starchart and a typical T4E.  T4E isn't considered "endless" content, so it should be taken into affect for all balance issues.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Horrible idea. A tank that can't keep pace with the unit is a useless one. Hell, it's the exact reason why real-world designs like the Maus or the P1000 Ratte never went anywhere (literally) or achieved anything.

 

Lowering his speed just ganks his viability like it did before Vanguard/Rhi Pri where the mission was done and he huffed and puffed his way to extraction like a three pack a day smoker while the rest of the team was already waiting there for the past thirty seconds.

 

 

"after the official balance area", yeah... no. It happens by the later planets in the solar system, nevermind T4 void and bombards (even outside endless missions) unless you gimp other aspects for power strength (which shouldn't be required for a skill to have late game viability), IS's cast animation lasts longer than it does otherwise.

 

Making it a percentage-based reduction with duration also means it scales better throughout the entirety of the game - makes it viable at higher levels, but it's no longer effective immunity to the point you can sleepwalk backwards through missions at lower levels. Hell, all of this was pointed out during the globe rework when it was originally just a flat HP bar.

 

 

If you think it's all about the speed for Rhino, I think you may be letting your munchkin show a little. Everything should be balanced, as much as it can be while being different. You should not be fast, quite tanky, with CC and buffs. Having said that, Rhino should be the tankiest by far, be the slowest and have his other abilities changed to fit the theme. The thing to remember is that people have different likes and playstyles, one is not better than the other. Some may take more skill, granted, but variety is good right?

 

Just saying you guys ignore that Rhino is totally immune to CC while having Iron Skin up and that's a strong aspect. Lazy facetanking is another thing.

 

 To translate that: Meaning no shield lancers scorpions, no knockdowns from heavy units, no knockback from fire eximus or Vay Hek.

And that's something Mesa/Mirage don't have.

 

Just saying. This is why Iron Skin is so favorable. Not just face tanking.

Edited January 11, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Tostov]

Slap on natural talent. Make sure you've got standard super efficency. Try to make sure you've got big power strength too. If you've got space, slap iron shrapnel on too.

Double tap 2 when you need to restore ironskin. Iron shrapnel will ragdoll anyone close to you, and the reapllication process is fast enough that as long as you're not standing right in a DPS enemy fire or such, you'll be back with full armor in a nigh instant.

Sure, he can't facetank past real high levels, but nor can anyone else, bar valkyr, who is literally invulnerable during her ulti.

[Holeypaladin]

Sure, he can't facetank past real high levels, but nor can anyone else, bar valkyr, who is literally invulnerable during her ulti.

Other frames can.  Very easily.  Just not Rhino.

 

Which is a complete violation of his codex entry.  "Heavy" in military terms means "Armored to the teeth and virtually impossible to destroy", but his base armor is lower than Valkyr, and he's easier to destroy than at least four other frames.