Here's How We Remove Serration And (Attempt To) Balance The Game. Damage 2.5 (Designated Megathread)

[ThePresident777]

What play style?  There is no mention of play style in the OP except to say play style play style play style.....  But, no play styles are made explicit and no explicit connection is made between mods and play styles.

 

How are the proposed changes going to enable a tank play style?  Or, a glass cannon play style?  Or, ..........

Edited April 29, 2015 by ThePresident777

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

You think the game is unbalanced? I think we need new enemies to make the game challenging.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/449254-elite-veterans-fighting-cheap-tactics-with-tactically-diverse-enemies-feedback-appreciated/

[Bizzaro21]

I like the idea very much actually,

but there`s Something OP forgot to mention about the elements changing dmg type, say a gun has 100 slash dmg, if i put a 30% heat mod I`d have 70 slash and 30 heat right? what if I put with the 30% heat a 30% slash? well the heat decrease or the total damage increase?

[arsyadpower]

if they remove my max serration and max hornet strike. i want compensation!!!

[Bizzaro21]

if they remove my max serration and max hornet strike. i want compensation!!!

if u know about this you`d be chilling right now ;)

[Eyeless]

Most people reading this seem to want to hang on to a bad system because of how much time they invested in it. That's pretty damn selfish wanting to hold back better progress for the sake of that. 

 

The others are caught up in saying things are going to be glorified mercury. How? Did you just decide to skim over the part where he talked about giving us innate damage bonuses the more we level a weapon? 

 

At higher difficulties DE could easily scale things up so that we would feel encouraged to have 30'd out guns/melees while using exemplified mods such as "Landing Headshots deals X% higher critical damage" and the like. 

 

I'm all for this, I'm tired of needing to go to T3's and T4's just to feel like I'm getting the most out of my gear. 

[ThePresident777]

But the OP hasn't actually made a case for it's claims.  It says that this will encourage varied play styles but not one play style is mentioned nor how it can be encouraged by a particular mod. 

 

All the mods the OP wants to remove are plain old damage progression mods.  But there is no conflict between progression and play style.  So removing them will make no difference in play style.

 

Imagine if Warframe guns had no progression and no slots.  How would anything be different?

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

But the OP hasn't actually made a case for it's claims.  It says that this will encourage varied play styles but not one play style is mentioned nor how it can be encouraged by a particular mod. 

 

All the mods the OP wants to remove are plain old damage progression mods.  But there is no conflict between progression and play style.  So removing them will make no difference in play style.

 

Imagine if Warframe guns had no progression and no slots.  How would anything be different?

 

To play devil's advocate, I think the idea is that it would create more room for other utility or effects.

 

But the fact is, I agree with you. The weapons exist to kill enemies. That's all they do. Changing the numbers required to do that and opening up a slot for faster reload or a slight recoil reduction isn't going to do anything for player choice or playstyle. Divide damage and HP by 100 and the only difference in the gameplay would be the numbers on screen.

 

What is anyone going to do other than make them kill or cause status effects (to enable killing)? I feel like the nerf and remove = improvement logic is based on some imaginary new mods that are automatically fun, like suddenly everything is going to go all Ratchet and Clank with them equipped.

 

The cynical part of me says that people want the "optimal build" made worse so their super secret, unique, special snowflake build that they think is so clever but actually isn't very good doesn't lag behind so badly. Even then, I don't see the point. If my playstyle works better with more utility and your playstyle works better with an vile accelleration DPS hose, then we each build our weapons accordingly and, in fact, have variety.

[Jahadaya]

What play style?  There is no mention of play style in the OP except to say play style play style play style.....  But, no play styles are made explicit and no explicit connection is made between mods and play styles.

 

How are the proposed changes going to enable a tank play style?  Or, a glass cannon play style?  Or, .........

Well, first, those playstyles don't have to do with weapon mods, but Warframe mods.

 

And to address your main point - by "playstyle" I pretty much just mean the variety of effective builds. One build, or one type of build (i.e. best damage possible builds) shouldn't be superior to every other type of build out there by like 20x, which is essentially what we have right now. Damage mods give off a false choice - you have to slot them to be most effective (and by most, again I don't mean like 20% more effective, but 20 times more effective, which is where the problem stems, and which is why I proposed a nerf to scaling). My true issue stems from the fact that many of the mods that we currently have (utility mods) largely go to waste, and go unused, albeit being more interesting than pure damage mods, simply because they are not anywhere near as viable. This leaves the modding system feeling lacking in terms of personality and customization, which is obviously not good.

 

But the OP hasn't actually made a case for it's claims.  It says that this will encourage varied play styles but not one play style is mentioned nor how it can be encouraged by a particular mod. 

I defined what I meant by "playstyle" in the above reply, but I also kind of did this in the OP when mentioning conditional mods. But I didn't go into depth about possible ideas because 1: If you read it, you would know I was in a rush at the time of writing OP :P 2: I don't feel like I have to list out a bunch of possible conditional mods, that would be DE's job if they ever decide to consider my idea. They've already thought about possible ones (the ones I listed in the OP, plus a few more in Devstream 44) and plus I know they're creative enough to make a bunch of interesting ones.

 

 

All the mods the OP wants to remove are plain old damage progression mods.  But there is no conflict between progression and play style.  So removing them will make no difference in play style.

 

Imagine if Warframe guns had no progression and no slots.  How would anything be different?

Did you read the OP?

 

I'm not removing the "progression", I'm removing the fact that we have to waste a mod slot on said mandatory "progression." Modding should be interesting and unique for each player (while still being effective), that's what the OP is trying to address. There isn't only one way to address it, and sure, you can disagree with my way of doing things. But at least understand it first. 

 

Your last sentence is 100% irrelevant as it has nothing to do with my suggestions. 

[087SE-Miykhail]

This sounds like "give us more legendary cores" at first, but well, OP is right in some points, but i think all weapons need an scale on level, the same way warframe abilities does, but maintaining the damage mods ( just make them progression to like +10-20% base damage on top tier weapons and 20-50% on low tier weapons, that way we can make weak weapons stronger ) ... maybe...

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

 

 

 

What play style?  There is no mention of play style in the OP except to say play style play style play style.....  But, no play styles are made explicit and no explicit connection is made between mods and play styles.

 

How are the proposed changes going to enable a tank play style?  Or, a glass cannon play style?  Or, ..........

These people don't know, they're just flinging themselves about according to their impetuous whims, hurled to and fro by their passions and cursing all who disagree with them.

[Duch99pl]

"pure damage mods"

 

that means that multishot mods would be removed aswell, since these essentialy

give you more base / elemtal dmg, and status....and crit chance......

 

 

 

NO, THANK YOU

[TheGrimCorsair]

A world where Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point, Point Blank, Split Chamber, Hell's Chamber, Barrel Diffusion, and Lethal Torrent are no longer givens on every weapon?

I'd buy that for a dollar.

[DSpite]

If Split Chamber actually used two bullets people might actually need to think carefully before putting it on weapons because of the extra ammo consumption to generate the extra per second damage, and not just add it to every build.

 

If Serration did not exist and Heavy Caliber had been the "main damage Mod", then people would also not be maxing that one out, or at least they would not be putting a maxed version on every gun, and would need lower Rank ones on like 6-8 for guns that would cause the spread to be too high.

 

Serration is treated as "must have" because DE made it all Pro's and no Con's to use. At the very least, Serration should have a higher Mod point cost. A maxed Serration has a lower point cost then Heavy Caliber, yet HC has negatives and is MUCH harder to get.

 

I think it's &#! backwards.

Edited May 4, 2015 by DSpite

[TheGrimCorsair]

If Split Chamber actually used two bullets people might actually need to think carefully before putting it on weapons because of the extra ammo consumption to generate the extra per second damage, and not just add it to every build.

 

If Serration did not exist and Heavy Caliber had been the "main damage Mod", then people would also not be maxing that one out, or at least they would not be putting a maxed version on every gun, and would need lower Rank ones on like 6-8 for guns that would cause the spread to be too high.

 

Serration is treated as "must have" because DE made it all Pro's and no Con's to use. At the very least, Serration should have a higher Mod point cost. A maxed Serration has a lower point cost then Heavy Caliber, yet HC has negatives and is MUCH harder to get.

 

I think it's ! backwards.

Honestly? I'd love if every mod had pros and cons. Improving one stat decreases another. On every mod. Constant trade off.

[Vyeth]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/449409-can-we-please-just-have-fun-events-again/?view=findpost&p=5022106

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/445012-why-im-starting-to-drift-away-from-warframe/

 

A couple of posts I made touching on this issue..

 

I think mods can be good, but I don't think they should control the growth of every aspect of combat. The enemies scale by level, while we are capped by mods.. and creds of course..

[Wolfstorm18]

I advise against it. Serration took a long time to max out, much more than to bring a weapon to level 30. A maxed-out Serration bring more variety to weapon components. 

 

Instead I propose to add one aura slot for both primaries and secondaries, and put the so-called conditional mods there. 

 

[(XBOX)GOAT Spartan]

really bad idea. no thanks. serration  the mod that really makes things a little bit easier to deal with and is the mod that every one probably uses. removing it and just making the levels that determine damage means that you'll need someone to farm EXP for you in order to become effective at higher levels. its bad enough that the grineer are now super overpowered with their perfect accuracy and extremely high status chances, don't give us another kick in the balls that we don't need. 

 

you ask me, i think the black market weapons category needs to buffed up. and what i mean by that is, more stuff to build and more variety. DE releases new weapons from time to time in the updates, but I'm talking about a big update that releases at least a total of 40 extra weapons or something in all three weapon categories. the weapons that are currently there aren't very good, some of em are pretty good and others are "meh", and then there are some that completely suck. 

 

serration is what makes most of the weapons that we get or build actually worth something. 

[(PSN)VariantX7]

really bad idea. no thanks. serration  the mod that really makes things a little bit easier to deal with and is the mod that every one probably uses. removing it and just making the levels that determine damage means that you'll need someone to farm EXP for you in order to become effective at higher levels. its bad enough that the grineer are now super overpowered with their perfect accuracy and extremely high status chances, don't give us another kick in the balls that we don't need. 

 

you ask me, i think the black market weapons category needs to buffed up. and what i mean by that is, more stuff to build and more variety. DE releases new weapons from time to time in the updates, but I'm talking about a big update that releases at least a total of 40 extra weapons or something in all three weapon categories. the weapons that are currently there aren't very good, some of em are pretty good and others are "meh", and then there are some that completely suck. 

 

serration is what makes most of the weapons that we get or build actually worth something. 

You do know if serration is removed or changed, then the enemy scaling would HAVE to be looked at and adjusted for a world without serration do you? You would still get damage increases from elementals and damage type mods, and your ability to get your weapon to max damage output wouldn't be limited by how many cores and credits you have on hand. I could kill 20,000 guys right now, but it would do me no good in getting more damage if I don't have enough credits or cores to push serration up one more level.

[Jahadaya]

"pure damage mods"

 

that means that multishot mods would be removed aswell, since these essentialy

give you more base / elemtal dmg, and status....and crit chance......

 

 

 

NO, THANK YOU

Oh god, read the OP please. Never comment on a feedback thread without actually reading the OP. 

[DrBorris]

I am with you on all points... except 3 (which is arguable one of the most important. Why you ask? Well, because it is too easy. ranking a weapon to thirty is far to fast. The solutions is simple then right? Nope. You cannot just massively increase the amount of time needed to rank a weapon to thirty for two reasons. One, modding. Holding back how fast we can customize our weapons to such an extent necessary to provide some semblance of a progression with weapon power will constrain the mod system so much that it will lose a lot of its luster. Now lets say that you made two "rankings" of a weapon, one for available mod slots and one for weapon damage, there is still an issue, and a massive one. What would be the difference in power between a new and veteran player? If all it takes to make a weapon powerful, then a MR 4 player could easily have the exact same amount of power as a MR 19 player. That is wrong. There should be some semblance of Progression to the power you are capable of, it should not be handed out like government subsidies. Just look at the farms on Draco, Sechura and the such. 

 

I wrote 15,000 words on this whole topic of "Progression" and I am going to try to quickly sum it up into a few sentences. First, keep all of your points in the OP except #3. Then, add 50-ish quests that come together in a timeline of sorts that tells the story of Warframe (basically all past events).

Then, make a new "rank" to work together with MR called "Progression rank". This Progression Rank is simply the amount of quests completed. For every Quest completed, you gain one Progression Rank. For every Progression Rank, you gain +5% weapon damage. This would make the progression of power a long term rather than short term goal, in addition you could also make it so skill was required to gain power by correlating the available power and the quests you are faced against.

 

That is the shortest summary possible, and before you point out the obvious faults in that summary, read the whole concept (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/382328-progression-20-a-complete-rework-of-the-presentation-of-warframe/). If you want a "clean" copy (.docx file) that may be easier to read than the forum version, shoot me a pm. 

 

Okay, that may not be the best solution, but correlating damage to weapon level is a very bad idea, it would remove almost all progression, and progression is that huge theme that brings the majority of people back to a game time and again. 

[ThePresident777]

I hear PvP is looking for some mod ideas.

[Vyeth]

 

 

serration is what makes most of the weapons that we get or build actually worth something. 

 

But is this the ONLY way?

 

To remove Serration and make it standard is not gimping you or anyone else at all. But I have a feeling this has nothing to do with being gimp, this is about all that you've put into making the mod..

 

But I ask you this, what if for every weapon that they released or that you start to level up, you have to level up a whole different set of mods? Say that your serration does not transfer once it is placed on a weapon.. Would you rather the damage become part of the weapon ranks or would you rather continue to level up each individual serration?

 

Let's not kid ourselves, every single rifle you will ever use in Warframe will need that same serration.. But why? is that what we call "variety"? Removing these "core" mods and allowing them to add more specialized mods would be considered variety.. Right now every build HAS to have the same few maxed out core mods, and they wonder why people find specialized mods like the resistance mods useless.. Who wants to take up a whole mod slot for one of those when we have the energy (or elemental for weapons) + core mods to fit?

 

Elemental damage, sure. Those make great additions to weapons.. A pure damage mod that allows you to even damage mobs of a certain level? Should be better left to being of a certain rank..

[Reaver_X]

didnt read :D :D :D

[Azamagon]

Actually, there is another way to change this.

 

For a long read, check this thread

 

TL;DR:

* Nerf (but don't REMOVE) all damage-increasing mods as well as enemy scaling.

* Add extra slots for utility (in Warframes, Sentinels, Kubrows, Archwing and Weapons alike)

* Change critical hits to be tied to stealth and weakspots (basicly: weakspot-shots or stealth-attacks gives enough crit to unmodded weapons to guarantee critical hits, bonus stacks with critical chance mods for red crit chances) so ANY weapon can be built for skillshots.

* Corrupted and regular counterpart-mods do not stack. Corrupted are always stronger, but have their penalties too. So, Serration or Heavy Caliber, pick your mod.

* Various buffs, changes and new choices to underwhelming mods (physical mods and pure status mods are better options etc)

 

What this does:

* Mods as they are, in essence, all remain. Nothing needs to be compensated for

* Scaling is not as absurd

* Damage does not compete with utility whatsoever.

* Damage-increasing mods will have more variety regardless, as you can specialize in more various ways. Critbuilds (even on non-crit weapons!), elemental focus, physical focus, status builds of various kinds, rainbow builds, faction min/max, add punchthrough etc. You decide HOW you wanna focus your damage, while min/maxing will still exist for those that want it.