Ember Is The New Nova

[VampirePirate]

Yes?   No?

 

So far I am enjoying the additional fire mechanic for her 3rd ability.  It's useful, and people can't say that you are spamming the 4th ability.

 

 

What do you think?

 

 

Edit:

Second thought:  I tested her out a bit more, and Ember is starting to feel more like a utility warframe to me.  Maybe I'm wrong but that is the way it feels now, as if not meant to be damage focused.

 

 

I don't know they moved this thread when it was not made for feedback, but... oh well.

Edited January 22, 2015 by VampirePirate

[DotBeta]

4th ability sucks now.

[4ever4gotin]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/388985-ember-changes-post-15110-megathread/

 

pretty sure the consensus is that things went south for this Ember change.

[xmegarockx]

3rt has LOS so it sucks xD

Edited January 22, 2015 by xmegarockx

[Kaotyke]

3rt has LOS so it sucks xD

The Eximus have LoS as well.... if you stand behind a barrier when a wave of heat comes, chances are it wont effect you much, just look at the night in Mercury, its freezing!

[Halser]

The Eximus have LoS as well.... if you stand behind a barrier when a wave of heat comes, chances are it wont effect you much, just look at the night in Mercury, its freezing!

logic shouldn't take priority in a game about space ninjas, especially when it hurts a frame that could use all the help it can get.

[LisRestall]

New Nova?

 

- Does Fireblast ignore walls or obstacles? No

- Does the CC of Fireblast makes the enemy easier to hit like the CC of Mprime? No

- Does it do considerable amount of damage to wipe out at least trash mobs? No

- Does it provide a "200% damage recieved" debuff on the affected enemies? No

 

Back to first question, Ember is the new Nova? No

Edited January 22, 2015 by LisRestall

[vaugahn]

logic shouldn't take priority in a game about space ninjas, especially when it hurts a frame that could use all the help it can get.

 

LoS is good for this game. It's not about logic.

[Vallerian]

I don't get why Ember ult isn't just a straight toggle with no duration

Ember's probably the only frame who needs to mod for Duration, Power, Efficiency, and Range, and now that she's more of a tank frame you might as well throw tank on top of that too.

[Kaiser_Suoh]

No.

 

Ember is fun but the 4th skill is almost the same than before.

[Halser]

LoS is good for this game. It's not about logic.

I can't be doing with this right now.

[Watlok]

They nerfed what was already arguably the worst frame in the game. It makes no sense.  No, ember is not "the new nova". It's also the second time they've "buffed" ember by actually nerfing her after hyping up changes coming to the frame.

 

WoF's target limit (pretty much 1) is absolutely ridiculous given its mana cost, damage output, and range. 

 

 

 

LoS

WoF and every other ember ability is so bad that they could all ignore LoS and the frame would still be competing with Hydroid for "worst by a large margin". Ignoring LoS is generally bad design, and it's not how to fix ember.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Watlok

[Ishki88]

I can't call it guys....I don't see why the complaints..

 

[--Q--Guther]

I READ EMBER'S UPCOMING CHANGES EARLY AND FORCIBLY USED EMBER FOR ONE WHOLE DAY TO TEST ACTUAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN EMBER'S USAGE, BEFORE AND AFTER HER PATCH.

 

GIVE THIS ANALYSIS A READ:

 

well ember did receive and overall STATS buff, and fireblast gimmick.

 

but consider this:

 

-people parrot that ember takes 75% damage of what she took before. let me remind you that the damage reduction only kicks in and only when shields are depleted. and in that situation, what used to take 3 bullets to down you just takes 4 now. I didnt eat bullets any more than i did before, not that i wanted to.

 

-none of her toolkit mitigates taking health damage, unlike oberon, trinity, or valkyr who can quickly and almost safely restore what little health their armor values could protect. this is unless you're forcibly running lifestrike or a lifesteal furis. but once i was down to 234 hp, I'm stuck at 234 hp for good.

 

-fireblast doesnt knockdown, but only knocks back enemies. the corpus crewmen i fireblasted were pretty much still firing in my face as the growing wall of fire bounched them back. it doesnt guarantee a panic proc to stop them shooting unless you have the firefright augment on, and the fire wall doesnt do anything to enemies taking cover behind boxes, meaning every cast with the intent to knock them back has to be placed right in front of their gunpoints, where ember cannot afford to be.

 

-the world of fire change is, despite a supposed change to prevent wastage of its duration when there are no enemies around, a nerf in practicality. the skill is toggled for 50, and kept on for 5 per second, and up to 10 seconds at max level.

 

        unmodded, new WOF does the same thing as the old one, 10 seconds of explosions for 100 cost.

 

        with duration mods, that say increases duration to 15 secs, old WOF costs 100 to keep on for 15 secs, new WOF costs 150.

 

        if duration is increased to 20 secs, old WOF still costs 100, while new WOF costs 200.

 

        and REMEMBER , during new WOF's exploding period, you CANNOT pick up energy orbs, your energy siphon deactivates, trinity's vampire CANNOT restore your energy, this just makes the net energy cost for casting the next WOF or your other skills that much higher, IF you decide to keep WOF on for long. the longer WOF is kept on, the longer you are prevented from recovering energy.

 

        the old WOF costs 100 for 20 seconds, throughout its duration even in solo play, i kill 12 mobs and i manage to pick 75 energy up, to prepare for its next use. Also, my ultility of my other 3 skills are much less affected, since my energy siphon continues to regenerate and i can pick up energy orbs as per norm. At the end of 20 secs, i look back and feel kinda wasted about those excess explosions that didnt hit any mobs. THATS ALL.

 

        the new WOF costs 200 for 20 seconds, i kill 12 mobs in that same duration, and i waste all 3 energy orbs spawned. My energy drain continues to tick and i have problems keeping accelerant and fireball up. At the end of 20 seconds. I am high and dry. I am 200 energy poorer than before i casted and there is no remedy(other than having a partner limbo). 

 

you are now punished for increasing duration in your build.

 

       "OH but isnt the new WOF toggleable so you could turn it off to prevent energy drain if not needed?" 

-Don't be silly. the activation cost of 50 already accounts for half its energy cost. the energy activation and draining values also punishes those who try toggle WOF on and off between meeting groups of enemies. Toggle it twice in under 15 seconds and you already have spent 100 energy, which is the original skill cost.

 

- to make things worse, WOF now has continues to be balanced amongst range-str-duration, which is still its original problem unchecked. why would a skill that doesnt have the sheer practical power and mobbing of mirage's prism, suffer the same limitations that keep its power in check.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guther

[Sixty5]

I like how people think the change on embers ult is a nerf for the frame.

Only difference I see is that I can cancel the ability for a reduced cost.

I really like the changes, ember feels like she is much more useful.

[R34LM]

LoS isn't bad, but knee-high walls still shouldn't block the effect. That's the big problem with the game. It isn't that abilities get nerfed through LoS, but that LoS in this game is broken in most parts.

[--Q--Guther]

I like how people think the change on embers ult is a nerf for the frame.

Only difference I see is that I can cancel the ability for a reduced cost.

I really like the changes, ember feels like she is much more useful.

really sire?

 

a reduced cost?

 

how much does it cost to toggle to new WOF? 50.

 

how much did it cost to toggle the old WOF? 100.

 

If you want to make full efficient use of WOF toggling, it means toggling it on and off multiplie times under 20 seconds, which was about old WOF's max duration.

 

HOW MANY TIMES can you afford to toggle before it becomes inefficient or even more costly? 2 or more.

 

You see the problem with evaluation on paper without considering numbers or actual use?

[Sixty5]

really sire?

 

a reduced cost?

 

how much does it cost to toggle to new WOF? 50.

 

how much did it cost to toggle the old WOF? 100.

 

If you want to make full efficient use of WOF toggling, it means toggling it on and off multiplie times under 20 seconds, which was about old WOF's max duration.

 

HOW MANY TIMES can you afford to toggle before it becomes inefficient or even more costly? 2 or more.

 

You see the problem with evaluation on paper without considering numbers or actual use?

Ember needs max efficiency anyway.

I build pretty low duration on her anyways.

Below if you run a duration of less than 10 seconds the changes boost your overall power efficiency.

I guess it really just depends on how well you can build your frames.

[--Q--Guther]

Ember needs max efficiency anyway.

I build pretty low duration on her anyways.

Below if you run a duration of less than 10 seconds the changes boost your overall power efficiency.

I guess it really just depends on how well you can build your frames.

 

which kills the whole point of using WOF.

unless you're a fan of cumbersome cast animations every 6 seconds.

 

efficiency or not, the drain proportions are the same, and throughout when WOF is on, energy restoration from pickups and siphon do not work.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guther

[Sixty5]

which kills the whole point of using WOF.

unless you're a fan of cumbersome cast animations every 6 seconds.

efficiency or not, the drain proportions are the same, and throughout when WOF is on, energy restoration from pickups and siphon do not work.

That would matter if WOF did amazing damage, but it doesnt.

Ember really likes natural talent, and given you have two massive cc powers in your 2 and 3, it isn't hard to find opportunities to cast.

My advice for ember is to build fire damage on your guns and abuse your 2 and 3.

That is all.

[--Q--Guther]

That would matter if WOF did amazing damage, but it doesnt.

Ember really likes natural talent, and given you have two massive cc powers in your 2 and 3, it isn't hard to find opportunities to cast.

My advice for ember is to build fire damage on your guns and abuse your 2 and 3.

That is all.

which is how ember was played before the patch.

 

the thread pertains to ember's newfound strengths (or the lack thereof)

 

i really dont want to resort to ad hominem, but its frustrating putting numbers and actual practice on the table to convince someone who derives explanation from his own anecdotes.

[LisRestall]

I like how people think the change on embers ult is a nerf for the frame.

Only difference I see is that I can cancel the ability for a reduced cost.

I really like the changes, ember feels like she is much more useful.

Reduced cost? Really? Tell me how spamming it and turning it off quickly is equal to reduced energy cost?

 

Initial cost is 50 energy and it's 10s default duration eats 50 energy. Having a turn off switch is not useful at all because the duration isn't even long in the first place.

 

How is this not a nerf? Let's say you have a 1 from top Primed Continuity, it adds 50% duration.

Old WoF with +50% duration would last 15s for 100 energy cost.

New WoF with +50% duration would last 15s for 125 energy cost.

 

Not a nerf? Something is wrong with you, you're basically one of the few people who doesn't understand how the changes on Ember made her worse. The Fireblast buff is redundant, people who played Ember longer and are good at it would prefer to use Accelerant than Fireblast because its not based on LoS, it has faster casting time, it provides a debuff and the induced panic isn't a bad CC compared to the knockback of Fireblast.

 

Ember needs max efficiency anyway.

I build pretty low duration on her anyways.

Below if you run a duration of less than 10 seconds the changes boost your overall power efficiency.

I guess it really just depends on how well you can build your frames.

Oh please tell me how well you can build your frames when you don't even understand why players said that the WoF changes is a nerf instead of a buff.

Edited January 22, 2015 by LisRestall

[-InV-igo95862]

Oh please tell me how well you can build your frames when you don't even understand why players said that the WoF changes is a nerf instead of a buff.

 

If you run less 10 seconds WoF by using something like Fleeting Expertise you get a mana cost buff.

 

I have a build with max rank fleeting expertise, Stream Line and not max rank Prime Continuity. WoF lasts around 8 seconds.

 

Before the patch WoF would cost me: 100 * 0.75 = 25

 

After the patch: 50 * 0.75 + 5 * 8 * 0.75 = 12.5 + 10 = 22.5

 

If you don't build duration then WoF is not nerfed at all.

 

Plus I am still able to pick up energy orbs. Maybe that's because I am using Carrier.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

Point taken but it's still a fact that in some scenarios, it would rather cost more energy than it originally used to like what my sample shows.

 

In conclusion, having it nerfed badly or buffed barely is not what the players want. Saving 2.5 energy or something with the correct build does not make the skill significantly better.

 

Players are not even demanding to be honest. They just want Ember to atleast reach the decent tier so they could bring her to the voids but DE keeps doing these nerfs or changes to her which is really way too much of a disappointment.

[--Q--Guther]

If you run less 10 seconds WoF by using something like Fleeting Expertise you get a mana cost buff.

 

I have a build with max rank fleeting expertise, Stream Line and not max rank Prime Continuity. WoF lasts around 8 seconds.

 

Before the patch WoF would cost me: 100 * 0.75 = 25

 

After the patch: 50 * 0.75 + 5 * 8 * 0.75 = 12.5 + 10 = 22.5

 

If you don't build duration then WoF is not nerfed at all.

 

Plus I am still able to pick up energy orbs. Maybe that's because I am using Carrier.

this is poor theory crafting. you know well that efficiency is proportionate to orginal energy cost, meaning the ratio between old and new skill costs are the same no matter your efficiency.

 

WOF with low duration of 6 seconds: 50+30=80 energy cost

 

using low duration build, to keep it going for 18 seconds, you have to cast it thrice: cost is 80x3=160

 

with high duration build, to keep it going for 18 seconds, you have to cast it once: cost is 50+90=140

 

with the old WOF, to keep it going for 18 seconds, you have to cast it once: cost is just=100

 

the net result is that it costs more to increase duration. it also costs more to decrease duration WITH SUSTAINED TOGGLING. which is an irony.

 

you're another fellow who resorts to anecdotes and poorly thought numbers to make a weak point.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guther