Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread

[Helljack84]

Yeah, not essencially harder but just a different kind of challenge. When you charge in there with pimped out frames and a rocket launcher you're basically shouting "come at me, i can take it" anyway. I would love to see some more changes in enemy tactics once all hell breaks loose.

 

On the other hand, if you're not running solo with loki/ash or are just doing a mission with random guys it would be hard to coordinate anything without some preparation. New players will most likely not even have any idea/give a damn about stealth or don't have the right tools for the job (no offence, it just takes some time to get these).

 

Last but not least, if you don't have a stealth ability and just take shade to do the job...well i really like him for saving my behind countless times when i was surrounded by baddies but depending on him to prevent detection at all felt really awkward sometimes. It proved hard enough to guess enemy los and judge whether a cover was suitable or not. It proved even harder to guess shades los to trigger ghost sometimes (maybe he has bad eyesight?). Like the guy you were trailing just went around a corner/behind a container and "poof" the guy 20m behind you starts pushing the alert frantically. So the only times when he reliably triggers were after a few dozen kills when everything was swarming with baddies.

[Cytobel]

Silly thing to point out, but when enemies spawn directly behind you you're clearly being out-ninja'd.  Also, it makes stealth a little difficult.

[InTheCube]

stealth? i tried that once... near impossible as far as i can tell.

 

unless you have invisibility, then you MIGHT be able to make it work...

[Inconmon]

I used to play missions stealthy in the beginning, using starting Excalibur (no Sentinel).

 

Infested: 100% impossible

Corpus: Difficult.

Grineer: Possible.

 

All it required was attention. Don't run in guns blazing. Check movement patterns, get close, do stealth kills. Of course there were limits until I got paris and even then some rooms proofed to be near impossible. After all, I tried not being seen at all instead of just killing everything before they sound alarms.

If it is just about not sounding an alarm... I claim that is not that difficult on most grineer missions. With a group of friends instead of randoms it must be a cake walk doing this.

 

However, there is no reason to try: All you get is less loot and affinity.

 

What I would like to see:

1) +200% Affinity and Drop Chances (modules, resources) while not being detected

2) Double credits for completing a mission stealthed

 

This kind of offsets the lower amount of enemies you kill.

[Qu3er]

I used to play missions stealthy in the beginning, using starting Excalibur (no Sentinel).

 

Infested: 100% impossible

Corpus: Difficult.

Grineer: Possible.

 

All it required was attention. Don't run in guns blazing. Check movement patterns, get close, do stealth kills. Of course there were limits until I got paris and even then some rooms proofed to be near impossible. After all, I tried not being seen at all instead of just killing everything before they sound alarms.

If it is just about not sounding an alarm... I claim that is not that difficult on most grineer missions. With a group of friends instead of randoms it must be a cake walk doing this.

 

However, there is no reason to try: All you get is less loot and affinity.

 

What I would like to see:

1) +200% Affinity and Drop Chances (modules, resources) while not being detected

2) Double credits for completing a mission stealthed

 

This kind of offsets the lower amount of enemies you kill.

awesome! Totally agree that they should award players who had the skills and patience to do it on the first place!

[Qu3er]

stealth? i tried that once... near impossible as far as i can tell.

 

unless you have invisibility, then you MIGHT be able to make it work...

Some players did it even without invisibility. Its the skills of the player that matters, not the frame. But when it comes to those lock downs, of course you need Ciphers, it is close to impossible to unlock the codes unless your a pro rubik's cube player or down right fast with both your brain and your hands . Anyway, of course there will be trial and error but hey, it totally pays off when you finish it because the sense of accomplishment is awesome, the added in loot is just the icing on the cake.

 

Seriously though, seeing those players on youtube and trying it out yourself is totally two different things (It's damn hard on my side), because the NPC reacts differently through each stages. But i suggest do try it, at least once...MGS style :D

[CeigeNorth]

Hey  I'm having a problem, i used to be able to instantly kill a normal grunt even in hard spy, now i can't, its either low health or the shields go down but no effect on health. The thing that i would love to be done is instant kill on grunts, i understand you cant instantly kill bosses or Heavies but please I hope the stealth aspect of the game is more possible, because isnt that the motto "Ninjas Play Free". Im not saying i don't like this game, believe me its AWESOME but there should be other possible ways to complete the objective than just go guns ablazin, or else it aint "Ninjas Play Free", its "Future Soldiers Play Free".

 

Its AWESOME but I'd like to see a better ninja aspect(Stealth, Instant Kill mostly) in the game to make it really feel your a space ninja protecting the solar system from grineers, Corpus, and Infested

Hope you dont hate on me :)

[Psychotoxin]

But when it comes to those lock downs, of course you need Ciphers, it is close to impossible to unlock the codes unless your a pro rubik's cube player or down right fast with both your brain and your hands.

the lockdown thingie automatically detects intrusion if you move 3 (or 2 on small ones) tiles, and the cipher helps, because it moves all of them at once, thus the system counts it as a single tile move. it`s not time based. me and my buddy have checked that... we stood at a console, and went in turns to see how it works for 10-15 minutes...

[_Chaser]

was busy with work, will read up and add more stuff from last pages.. any news about stealth changes?

[Probta16]

was busy with work, will read up and add more stuff from last pages.. any news about stealth changes?

No. They just added a new stalth weapon in 9 + AI got more messed in stealth.

[_Chaser]

meh, in this case i'm back to the rabbit hole i came from untill there will be something to test / discuss in stealth.

[Onihikage]

I don't know if anyone has said as much (thread is way too big to read through, though I read the OP), but I think stealth play should be primarily supported through the introduction of stealth-specific mods. For example, a "Loot Pockets" mod would significantly increase the chance of item or mod drops from targets killed by stealth animation. A mod for Shade could make it hover low & near your back when you crouch, so it doesn't blow your cover. You know when you wall-run to the limit and start sliding back down? Another mod could make you not slide down, so you could chill up there out of their field of view, just like a ninja would. Equipping both the Enemy Radar aura mod and the personal enemy radar mod could enable a sort of "super radar" where, at a close distance, you can see enemy outlines through walls, and with both mods maxed, the range would be significant enough to be useful. (seeing what's on the other side of a door before getting close enough to open it, for example)

 

Going deeper into it, we can look at more stealth attack enhancement mods, such as "Assassination" which would grant up to something like 500% bonus stealth attack animation damage (8-10 upgrade levels), which, coupled with the already high damage that daggers should eventually grant, would allow stealth kills of even very high-rank enemies, even heavies. The Reach mod could be modified to also apply to the stealth kill animation popup, allowing stealth kills from longer distances. Another mod could stop health loss at 1 hp and automatically turn you invisible for a short time, allowing you to escape if you get discovered, and potentially try again (because the alarms and alerts will stop after a few minutes of no one seeing or hearing you). A "Phantom" mod would make your footsteps noiseless, and make bumping into enemies not alert them (as long as they can't see you).

 

The Stalker's use of mods from multiple Warframes introduces the possibility of generic ability mods that work on any warframe. One such mod for stealth could be an ability that allows one to reverse the direction of gravity for the warframe for a short period of time (this would allow running across the ceiling, or extending jumps if cast mid-air). 30 base energy cost, maximum base duration of 20 seconds.

 

Stealth-specific mods are the best way to balance stealth IMO, because they mean that every mod a player adds for stealth is a mod slot that's not being used to increase their battle strength. At the most extreme, the result is a warframe+sentinel combo that is extremely effective and deadly while stealthed, but if you get spotted, you're screwed!

 

On the non-mod side, expanding+zooming the minimap to display in the center of the screen would be a nice function to be able to map to a hotkey, definitely a stealth enhancer (because playing in 1080p and squinting at that tiny map in the corner means you can't see exactly where you're walking).

 

Additionally, every area patrolled by Grineer and Corpus should have routes generated when you reach them, such that the players can (and will often need to) watch the enemies for a minute and figure out the patrol patterns, and hence the best time to predictably take out a guard. Naturally, the routes will have holes where the player can either slip past, take out a guard, or both. Higher levels would have smaller holes requiring more precise timing to exploit. Naturally, infested would not have such patrol routes, as they wander randomly.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Onihikage

[ForgemasterHD]

I don't know if anyone has said as much (thread is way too big to read through, though I read the OP), but I think stealth play should be primarily supported through the introduction of stealth-specific mods. For example, a "Loot Pockets" mod would significantly increase the chance of item or mod drops from targets killed by stealth animation. A mod for Shade could make it hover low & near your back when you crouch, so it doesn't blow your cover. You know when you wall-run to the limit and start sliding back down? Another mod could make you not slide down, so you could chill up there out of their field of view, just like a ninja would. Equipping both the Enemy Radar aura mod and the personal enemy radar mod could enable a sort of "super radar" where, at a close distance, you can see enemy outlines through walls, and with both mods maxed, the range would be significant enough to be useful. (seeing what's on the other side of a door before getting close enough to open it, for example)

 

Going deeper into it, we can look at more stealth attack enhancement mods, such as "Assassination" which would grant up to something like 500% bonus stealth attack animation damage (8-10 upgrade levels), which, coupled with the already high damage that daggers should eventually grant, would allow stealth kills of even very high-rank enemies, even heavies. The Reach mod could be modified to also apply to the stealth kill animation popup, allowing stealth kills from longer distances. Another mod could stop health loss at 1 hp and automatically turn you invisible for a short time, allowing you to escape if you get discovered, and potentially try again (because the alarms and alerts will stop after a few minutes of no one seeing or hearing you). A "Phantom" mod would make your footsteps noiseless, and make bumping into enemies not alert them (as long as they can't see you).

 

The Stalker's use of mods from multiple Warframes introduces the possibility of generic ability mods that work on any warframe. One such mod for stealth could be an ability that allows one to reverse the direction of gravity for the warframe for a short period of time (this would allow running across the ceiling, or extending jumps if cast mid-air). 30 base energy cost, maximum base duration of 20 seconds.

 

Stealth-specific mods are the best way to balance stealth IMO, because they mean that every mod a player adds for stealth is a mod slot that's not being used to increase their battle strength. At the most extreme, the result is a warframe+sentinel combo that is extremely effective and deadly while stealthed, but if you get spotted, you're screwed!

 

On the non-mod side, expanding+zooming the minimap to display in the center of the screen would be a nice function to be able to map to a hotkey, definitely a stealth enhancer (because playing in 1080p and squinting at that tiny map in the corner means you can't see exactly where you're walking).

 

Additionally, every area patrolled by Grineer and Corpus should have routes generated when you reach them, such that the players can (and will often need to) watch the enemies for a minute and figure out the patrol patterns, and hence the best time to predictably take out a guard. Naturally, the routes will have holes where the player can either slip past, take out a guard, or both. Higher levels would have smaller holes requiring more precise timing to exploit. Naturally, infested would not have such patrol routes, as they wander randomly.

This.

[Gigatron-Prime]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/

 

Scroll down to general and you will see something about stealth.

 

Also the last livestream contains one minute about stealth.

Wow...one minute. They really need to start focusing on stealth more. It would help if level designed kept that in mind while working as well.

[CeigeNorth]

Wow...one minute. They really need to start focusing on stealth more. It would help if level designed kept that in mind while working as well.

yes yes they should

[arch111]

I think its the nature of the missions. Apart from defence, its like

Tenno, you are still in the clear. Noone knows you are on this vessel.

Very stealthy. But then its all hell and fire, and rush here and to the exit.

Hacking is seriously underused, could be a bigger and better part of wf.

Opening, closing doors, spying by using cameras, deactivating alarms and traps.

adding distraction and traps as mods would help.

This aside, how coulfmd de build a mission using existing code and assets?

Well, remove alerts, or allow hacking to reset enemy alertness to 0.

Limited spawns. No enemies you cant kill with snipe, or melee.

Only snipe, silent or melee allowed.

Tenno, the station is unstable. Heavy weaponry will rupture the reactor. Use only handto hand combat or sniping. Keep hidden.

Goals: assassin, without being seen.

Sabotage. Get out before ship explodes.

Steal tec or mods etc.

Raid research facility, armory, bosses quarters.

Fyrther more, no alerts mean time for duels, harder enemies but fewer.

traps and parkour would be real parts of the map since you dont have spawns or napalms everywhere.

No need to rush, unless asked to.

This could then work well with des story lore path of

Agression vs defence.

Are you the warrior or the assassin?

Thoughts?

[redbrigade]

I wanted to add an alternative to the list you have in the initial post of how to handle stealth rewards in order to make stealth viable:

How about rare mods as rewards?

I am thinking that each stealth kill should give a small percentage chance of a rare mod at the conclusion of the mission.

A mission in which you remain undetected could give you a much higher percentage chance at a higher tier mod.

Just putting this one out there.

I mean, by the time you hit high mastery like myself, xp and credits are just a second thought, and mods are where it's at. Maybe that needs to change, but I think this is a goodly way to perk the total wankery that is the stealth system and get all those dirty rushers to slow down.

Not to mention that this way, if some wally does join your mission and starts creating havoc, at least you can still pop rewards for those kills you already got.

[arch111]

Stealth Alerts.

[Onihikage]

I think its the nature of the missions. Apart from defence, its like

Tenno, you are still in the clear. Noone knows you are on this vessel.

Very stealthy. But then its all hell and fire, and rush here and to the exit.

Hacking is seriously underused, could be a bigger and better part of wf.

Opening, closing doors, spying by using cameras, deactivating alarms and traps.

adding distraction and traps as mods would help.

This aside, how coulfmd de build a mission using existing code and assets?

Well, remove alerts, or allow hacking to reset enemy alertness to 0.

Limited spawns. No enemies you cant kill with snipe, or melee.

Only snipe, silent or melee allowed.

Tenno, the station is unstable. Heavy weaponry will rupture the reactor. Use only handto hand combat or sniping. Keep hidden.

Goals: assassin, without being seen.

Sabotage. Get out before ship explodes.

Steal tec or mods etc.

Raid research facility, armory, bosses quarters.

Fyrther more, no alerts mean time for duels, harder enemies but fewer.

traps and parkour would be real parts of the map since you dont have spawns or napalms everywhere.

No need to rush, unless asked to.

This could then work well with des story lore path of

Agression vs defence.

Are you the warrior or the assassin?

Thoughts?

 

I like the idea of stealth working with the lore, warrior vs assassin.

 

I think some of the coming Nightmare modes will certainly encourage stealth, such as "Melee Only", or possibly a "Stealth Only" mode, where you have to complete a normal mission while remaining stealthed - if an enemy successfully activates the alert, you fail.

 

Hacking definitely does need some additions to better support stealth play, such as hacking a terminal to turn off the alert, or, when the alert is off, doing things such as locking doors open/closed, using nearby cameras as your own "security feed", putting nearby enemies on your minimap even without a radar mod, wiring the terminal to overload when grineer/corpus interact with it, etc. Such hacking should be much more advanced (like in the hacking test) since you can do it any time you want, and also carry the risk of triggering an alert if you fail or back out early. Another stealth related mod, like the ones I mentioned on the previous page, could increase the time given for hacking and reduce the chance for detection.

 

We also need enemies to not respawn in any area you've already been in, so that if there's one or two enemies in a room, you should be able to kill them without worrying about respawns suddenly appearing to shoot you in the back or hit the control panel.

 

 

I wanted to add an alternative to the list you have in the initial post of how to handle stealth rewards in order to make stealth viable:

How about rare mods as rewards?

I am thinking that each stealth kill should give a small percentage chance of a rare mod at the conclusion of the mission.

A mission in which you remain undetected could give you a much higher percentage chance at a higher tier mod.

Just putting this one out there.

I mean, by the time you hit high mastery like myself, xp and credits are just a second thought, and mods are where it's at. Maybe that needs to change, but I think this is a goodly way to perk the total wankery that is the stealth system and get all those dirty rushers to slow down.

Not to mention that this way, if some wally does join your mission and starts creating havoc, at least you can still pop rewards for those kills you already got.

 

As I mentioned in my post on the previous page, there could be a rare warframe/aura mod for stealth that greatly increases the chance of mod and resource drops when you stealth-kill an enemy. Otherwise, everyone would attempt stealth at the beginning to add the chances of getting a rare mod.

 

I think mod drops simply need rebalanced with difficulty - a level 1 enemy will rarely ever drop mods at all, and basically never drop anything other than common mods, but level 100+ enemies would have significantly higher chances of dropping any rarity of mod. Hence, stealth-killing a level 100+ enemy with a maxed "Loot Pockets" mod could almost guarantee a drop - but of course, you'd need a maxed-damage dagger and +stealth-animation-damage mod to accomplish that. This technique would enable farming of rare mods in the endgame levels, without creating gameplay elements that encourage farming of lower-level missions.

 

Enhancing stealth enables even low-level players or warframes with high skill to still complete higher-level missions and alerts through use of stealth gameplay. As it is now, higher level missions are becoming much more difficult to solo guns-blazing unless you're a Loki with maxed invisibility+continuity+flow+streamline+essence+energy siphon. I know, there are other builds that can solo high level missions, but they seem more limited. Stealth needs to be a way that ANY warframe should be able to solo a high level mission (not necessarily bosses).

[arch111]

Stealth specific mods sound good.

I wonder however if a new frame would be in order.

A power i would like is copy, ie you turn into a grinear for a time.

this allows you to infilteate. Would be cool.

[Vegas56]

Hi guys,

(of course the game is in beta, I think the idea is already in court).
Improve this would change the gamplay made ​​still running into the pile pulling hoping to kill everyone ... (DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!!!) At a time that little lacing to be running into the pile all the time (personally, apart for défence mission, I do not really see the differences).

Unfortunately I am not a pro gamer to punch to make a full stealth mission without me répurer why he will already be easier if the stealth gameplay could be similar to that of "ghost recon future soldier", that is to say. ..
- You can see the enemies through the wall
- Markers to indicate their presence
- Why not drones?

After I did that presentation idea could simplify the stealth gameplay. Also there could be missions where you oubliger is not being detected. There would not hurt to correct point on the current gameplay:
- The enemies realize we too easily
- Certain tasks enemies we Landmarks early
- We can not do stealth mission (moin or more easily) as against griners ...

I explain my ideas for the future of this game that I find absolutely amazing. I'm hasty to see the game out of its beta. Alas, the only flaw I see in this game is a repetitive gameplay.

I hope this message will attract the eyes of gameplay players see even warframe team. thank you all ^ ^

PS: please exuser me if my English is very bad

Edited July 21, 2013 by Vegas56

[The531st]

I suggest moving Ignis to automatic shotguns. Close range, Bad vs armor if unmodded. Thats kind of shotgun thing. Plus i totally dislike that Ignis works like a laser with flame sprites. Pellet spread will make it more multitarget, will make it use more fitting shotgun mods because hammershot and wildfire and zoom are not so fitting for it. Especally with hammershot's 40% stun chacne. Also it will make closer enemies get more damage and cover with flames distant enemies which looks like fuel dispersion. But i guess there may be problems with ammo usage. Can continous fire weapons consume more ammo with no suffering from attack speed? 

 

And yeah, add letter "J" to corpus alphabet, please :D

 

P.S. Invisible loki spewing streams of flame with screaming corpus crewmen and running in panic MOAs is still stealth? Corpus must be thinking: "Where did he go? He was right here. He must be somewhere around that giant stream of fire spewing out of the nothingness. I better not mention it and search for visible tenno"

Edited July 21, 2013 by The531st

[JackTFlipper]

 

 

P.S. Invisible loki spewing streams of flame with screaming corpus crewmen and running in panic MOAs is still stealth? Corpus must be thinking: "Where did he go? He was right here. He must be somewhere around that giant stream of fire spewing out of the nothingness. I better not mention it and search for visible tenno"

 

Loki doesnt just go invisible, he also is invunerable against normal fire, they CANT just shoot you

i also would love to see more stealthy ways of playing the game but people should not try to force this game to work like another

as far as ive read mainly loki is fit for stealth, as he is deception. ash and excalibur are offesive warframe with a skill to get out of a bad situation.

 

alot of people try to get really nice offesive warframes to work like Loki, NO, Loki has nearly ZERO offensive skills, he depends on bein smart and stealthy, want to play stealth play him or ask more warframes like him

 

some sort of reward for stealth play should be implemented, why else would you have an undetected mode in the first place

the AI here is nice, theyre smart and not complete morrons that go look at a body instead of raising alarm, tenno are dangerous once detected youre screwed they will search you and they will find you.

 

i like some ideas on this page but most of them force a rework for the game for the select few that want stealth play, if the DE would do that kind of rework they can delete Loki as he will be totally useless if stealth is viable for all warframes

 

if you want stealth you dont need your awesome damaging abilities that one shot enemies. you want utility over damage, you rather avoid killing than killing

Edited July 22, 2013 by robbyke

[arch111]

Loki doesnt just go invisible, he also is invunerable against normal fire, they CANT just shoot you

i also would love to see more stealthy ways of playing the game but people should not try to force this game to work like another

as far as ive read mainly loki is fit for stealth, as he is deception. ash and excalibur are offesive warframe with a skill to get out of a bad situation.

 

alot of people try to get really nice offesive warframes to work like Loki, NO, Loki has nearly ZERO offensive skills, he depends on bein smart and stealthy, want to play stealth play him or ask more warframes like him

 

some sort of reward for stealth play should be implemented, why else would you have an undetected mode in the first place

the AI here is nice, theyre smart and not complete morrons that go look at a body instead of raising alarm, tenno are dangerous once detected youre screwed they will search you and they will find you.

 

i like some ideas on this page but most of them force a rework for the game for the select few that want stealth play, if the DE would do that kind of rework they can delete Loki as he will be totally useless if stealth is viable for all warframes

 

if you want stealth you dont need your awesome damaging abilities that one shot enemies. you want utility over damage, you rather avoid killing than killing

Agree, but think stealth alert where the rules are altered.

It could be as simple as fewer sentries on patril, targets for sniping, running fast past sentries to avoid detection.

No new content need be created, just new conditions and maps.

It can be. Done, and simply use the spy aproach:

If discovered, its mission failed.

Imagine a group of Lokis and ash with only silent weapons, silently killing guards, hacking and parkouring.

Imagine reaching the Mission complete. No one saw you, Tenno, only shadows.

[redbrigade]

As I mentioned in my post on the previous page, there could be a rare warframe/aura mod for stealth that greatly increases the chance of mod and resource drops when you stealth-kill an enemy. Otherwise, everyone would attempt stealth at the beginning to add the chances of getting a rare mod.

You're right, everyone would attempt stealth. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Having thought over it a few times - whilst in the shower where I do my most philosophical thinking - I still think a rare mod drop for full completion while the enemy is un-alerted is good. It's not an easy or swift task. It's certainly not easier than the alternative, although it would be far easier when using Loki.

I don't think it would be bad to start a mission that way? I think we'd still get people just straight up starting into a slaughter match just because that's what they prefer. But the stealth system is also there for a reason so it should be equally viable.

I thought about a stealth mod like you've described but I don't know how I feel about it. I feel like a mod shouldn't be needed to get better rewards from stealth. Stealth should provide it's own rewards. However I'm warming to the idea.