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Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread


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well i think some additional stealth based moves could be added  though not quite 2 sure how but i did think of 1 way things could be done:

 

1 - when not noticed and crouched holding block then taping and holding the E melee key will trigger a stealth attack  either a light stealth combo or a heavy stealth move that will stun a foe and let you execute them(boss should be immune to this obviously)

 

2-  above idea except no need 2 hold block 

 

in addition to that it would be quite hard to manage a full stealth mission unless your Loki/Ash 

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I think the direction which the game is evolving toward isn't one with stealth element.

Many good stealth games; Metal Gear Solid, DeusEx, Dishonored, Mark of Ninja are single player game. Game design also has to be oriented heavily toward stealth more than actual combat. You will die if you get caught (or have to be really skillful in combat). It's about pathfinding, pattern recognition, and patience. Skill based gameplay more than vertical progression. Mostly you expand your gadget which make stealth easier when you level up.

Warframe doesn't have that feel. Sure it has minimal stealth but the current mechanic doesn't support a full fledge stealth game. It's coop, it's extremely strong element of vertical progression, unlocking new stuff doesn't have any stealth element in it. No power which support stealth gameplay except invisibility mode. Above all, no patience required. Why stealth if you can run head on against a room full of Grineer and emerge victorious? More loot, more EXP, more credit.

Imo, this is what stealth gameplay need.

1. Choice. Player can choose to play stealthily or using more direct means to dispatch enemies. However, enemies must post enough threat to make stealth more logical choice.

- DeusEx, MGS, and Dishonored all have this feature but fighting direct combat usually messy and player usually fail the attempt.

- Choice not to kill. Stealth gameplay should offer alternative way to finish the mission. No detection, no kill. Best game allow you to deal with boss/objective in non-lethal way. MGS and Dishonored succeed in this regard, DeusEx simply fail spectacularly.

2. Game focus on horizontal progression and expand choice, not power.

- Progression in stealth game usually focus on expanding choice which is usually unnecessary.

- You can play entire MGS without using anything but avoiding LoS and chokehold.

- You can play entire Dishonored with just Blink and chokehold (mostly flesh and steel achievement is fun and faster than my normal run)

- You can play DeusEx with chokehold only.

3. Having a way to dispatch enemies in one attack is a must. OHK from stealth is needed. Even lowly Skana should be able to dispatch lv99 Grineer with one hit without mod. That's the beauty of stealth.

4. Stealth mechanic: LoS, noise generation, smell, movement, and shadow. All of them are needed to make stealth viable.

5. Level design. This is where Warframe make minor attempt to create alternative path. However, the procedurally generated map makes things messy. You can crawl through a duct but you have to exit the duct, walk through the doorway to the next room. I don't ask for duct that lead you directly to the objective but it really breaks the sense of stealth. These ducts usually lead to no where, no loot, no special control room, etc.

6. AI design. This one is big. Really big. Hardest thing in stealth game is to create believable AI behavior. Walking in patrol, stand and talking to each other, banter with one another in the squad, monitoring security panel, etc. When they detect you, there must be different between alert state and full awareness pattern.

7. Stealth feedback. This exist in every game. Visual feedback: The exclamation mark on the head in MGS, the thunder around he head for Dishonored, the usual 'huh?' in DeusEx and Mark of ninja. Musical feedback also exist in these games.

Throw of these into Warframe will be hard. I think the main concept of Warframe and stealth game don't mix well with each other. Imo, Warframe should focus on what it can deliver best : meleeing, shooting, running, and power. Investing in stealth is not productive at this point.

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Obviously, a traditional stealth experience would be out of realm for Warframe, yes. However, seperate no-detect and no alarm bonuses should be in play, along with additional tools/powers to make stealth gameplay more viable. Suppressor mods for weapons would be great, as well as a mod to use more efficient, insta-dissolve-the-body stealth kills.

 

An expansion of the hacking mechanic, so the player can sabatoge alarm panels in the vicinity (like Human Revolution) would also be a plus. Heck, hacking should recieve even non-stealth expansion, so perhaps a new 'frame specialized in cyberwarfare and jamming would be able to hijack Corpus walkers/camera guns for a short time. (This would be an ult, to prevent abuse.) Banshee currently has sound tracking, Loki can cloak, and Ash can smoke grenade, so having a cyberwarfare frame jamming enemy detection gear and alarms would make for a great stealth play team. Perhaps the new frame would be based on a Rhino chassis, and trade armor for it's cyberwarfare suite of computers.

 

Alarm stages for guards could also ramp up the challenge in a way to make both stealth and action play more interesting- as more alarms happen, enemies get better weapons and armor, and even can lay ambush with traps. The developers experimented with traps in the Orokin Void maps, so having some Grineer or Corpus designed unique security measures could increase combat diversity and prevent the maps from feeling samey.

Edited by SFkenny
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I don't really understand why stealth attacks aren't by default OHKO. It's not like it's easy to keep a ship unalerted or put the mobs back into and unalerted state. If it IS easy to do the above, then I think the Devs should make it unbelievably harder to do it but at the same time compensate by making stealth attacks do OHKO. I don't mean that this should apply to bosses, just regular mobs and even special units like heavies. 

 

Honestly, with all the cameras and Ospreys in Corpus, staying stealthed isn't easy unless you have Loki or Ash.

 

And if this is applied, Invisibility and Smoke Bomb can be looked at to not make it possible to just hop into Invisibility mode and Stealth kill everything. AI can be improved to infer where the player is if the player gets too c0cky.

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Had the below idea at https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/92375-stealth-attack-modification/

If enemies are facing away from you, (i.e. Have their attention diverted), it should be possible to perform a stealth attack on them.  This would bring team dynamics to stealth play and improve the utility of Loki's stealth and distraction techniques significantly.

 

This would probably only really work if you had zero direct aggro on you to begin with.  (Direct aggro as in line of sight and aggro).

 

AI should be able to compensate for this tactic so that it cannot be overused.  Maybe being sighted performing a stealth kill on someone (long &#! animation) would place significant aggro on you?  

 

 

Please use that thread to discuss my idea, please +1 this post if you think it should be added to the OP.

Edited by RaianStar
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...

a) stealth reward

...

Now THAT is key.

 

I don't think stealth can simply be dropped from this game; it's quite literally a necessity for "space ninjas". Unfortunately one of the largest obstacles in stealth gameplay, and particularly group stealth, is the need to fulfil the question “but why?” or “what for?”. A significant reward system is one of the best ways to do this. Even if that simply means that the mod and resource drop rate/quality is higher for a stealth kill.

 

As for the 'instakill', how about this: Allow the player to chain stealth attacks on an individual thereby providing a method to silently kill the larger or heavy units and still maintain a difference between them and the cannon fodder. The chaining of these attacks could be executed through a series of time-based melee prompts meaning the tougher the target the harder the difficulty.

 

It appears this topic has a number of parallel threads so I apologise if I've just inadvertently echoed someone else’s opinion.

Edited by YsWolf
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chained stealth attacks.

Ok. That's not a bad idea. It'll bring skill into the equation. Even if this is implemented, Stealth kills will still need damage buffs. right now, Charge attacks are more effective. 

 

In conjunction, alterable patrol paths need to also be implemented.

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ALL stealth attacks should be 1-hit kills, no matter the level of the enemy. I mean, it's just one enemy, so that would hardly be overpowered. And most often times when you don't kill them in one hit, you attract the attention of other enemies, therefore losing your stealth already from the get-go. 

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If daggers should be main weapon for stealth kills, but they can't have large charge damage, how about introduce stealth kill multiplier to weapon's stats. Daggers would have low to medium charge damage and large multiplier which would make them much better choice for stealth kills.

And maybe stealth kills should always crit. But I don't think it should be guaranteed kill on every enemy.

Edited by Enguzrad
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And maybe stealth kills should always crit. But I don't think it should be guaranteed kill on every enemy.

 

Then what's the point of stealth attacks? You would almost always do more damage with a charged attack. And again, if stealth attacks don't kill them immediately, they'll just attract nearby enemies anyway, making stealth even more meaningless in the game.

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Then what's the point of stealth attacks? You would almost always do more damage with a charged attack. And again, if stealth attacks don't kill them immediately, they'll just attract nearby enemies anyway, making stealth even more meaningless in the game.

 

Not with large multiplier. What is bigger number? 70 * 20 or 200 * 2 ?

Add critical on top of that and everything is dead on stealth atack except from heavies. And to those who survives stealth attack we should add some debuff due to serious injury.

Also stealth attack should definitely bypass shield, I agree with that too.

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And to those who survives stealth attack we should add some debuff due to serious injury.

I really like that suggestion. What i'm really worried about is stealth attacks inadvertently making you lose your stealth when you don't instakill them, which would be pretty counterproductive.

Edited by Alenjak7
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I really like that suggestion. What i'm really worried about is stealth attacks inadvertently making you lose your stealth when you don't instakill them, which would be pretty counterproductive.

 

With well done stealth mechanics it's not a problem. When there is a big one which can't be get down with one stealth kill then you should kill the others first and then rip apart the last one when there is noone who could hear him. And I'm sure you won't let him activate alarm.

It all get's down on making the ship truly unsuspicious. Right now there are patroling units like they knew that some sneaky Tenno is around. If you would get on ship undetected, there would be much less patrols and more workers moving material etc.

Generating mission that there are more ways how to get to objective would really help too.

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-snip-

Also stealth attack should definitely bypass shield, I agree with that too.

I like the thought of ignoring the shield however it's not very realistic. The enemy has a shield on it all the time, why should your stealth attack change that?

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I like the thought of ignoring the shield however it's not very realistic. The enemy has a shield on it all the time, why should your stealth attack change that?

What do you mean by realistic? It's a shield technology, we don't know how ti works. Maybe It's like that shield from stargate which is harder with greater kinetic energy so a slow dagger can pass through but bullet can't.

Or daggers could be modified to bypass shields and other melee couldn't, that would make dagger even better choice for stealth attacks.

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