Rhino's Iron Skin: Suggestion For Scaling (While Still Keeping It Relatively Balanced)

[Renegade343]

Hello all,

 

Since Rhino's Iron Skin makes him rather easy to play at in lower levels, meaning that there is not much need to worry for players once they obtain Rhino, and that Iron Skin gets shredded at higher levels (as in: Level 30+, or maybe Level 35+), making the skill a bit useless, there are various suggestions to tweak Iron Skin to scale a bit more for higher level content, from bringing back damage reduction, to having very high damage reduction + aggro. But there is one suggestion that has not been made yet: Scaling in terms of enemy levels. 

 

Now, the suggestion is to tweak Rhino's Iron Skin health calculation, so that it will be calculated by 70/80/90/100 * Enemy_Level_Of_The_Mission (meaning for a max Rank Iron Skin, if Rhino casts it in a mission with Level 7 enemies, then his Iron Skin health will be 70 * 7 = 490 additional Ferrite Armour health).

 

For non-Endless missions, the level is determined when loading in the mission (but would generally be the average level of the enemies in the mission, rounded to the nearest integer) (meaning if an non-Endless mission is within the level range of 6-8, that means the Enemy_Level_Of_The_Mission = approx. 7). For Endless missions, the Enemy_Level_Of_The_Mission variable will change based on the new enemy level when the enemy spawn after 5 minutes/5 waves/a few Extractors later. 

 

Iron Skin can still be increased/decreased with Power Strength mods, just like now. 

 

Please discuss whether or not this would allow Rhino's Iron Skin to be a bit more balanced as the levels go up, as well as giving him a slightly more defensive ability. 

 

Renegade343

[7grims]

NO, no no no.

 

Rhino haves the most awesome stats for shields, health, armor; not only that but he also haves a huge powerful ultimate, and yet you still want him to be even more op?

Iron skin is a #2 ability, its normal it wont last high levels, its not supposed to make you an eternal immortal.

 

If frames with lower stats and less powerful abilities endure high enemy levels, why are the rhinos still acting so noob like and asking for this ridiculous buff.

 

 

 

Rhino is way out of balance, he needs a good nerf, because all ppl who noob out whit him never learn to play well, and then still complain he isnt good enough; when in fact he way overpower full.

His stats + is powerful abilities, specially the ultimate, makes him out of the scale compared with most of the frames in this game.

Edited February 8, 2015 by 7grims

[Rakshal]

NO, no no no.

 

Rhino haves the most awesome stats for shields, health, armor; not only that but he also haves a huge powerful ultimate, and yet you still want him to be even more op?

Iron skin is a #2 ability, its normal it wont last high levels, its not supposed to make you an eternal immortal.

 

If frames with lower stats and less powerful abilities endure high enemy levels, why are the rhinos still acting so noob like and asking for this ridiculous buff.

 

 

 

Rhino is way out of balance, he needs a good nerf, because all ppl who noob out whit him never learn to play well, and then still complain he isnt good enough; when in fact he way overpower full.

His stats + is powerful abilities, specially the ultimate, makes him out of the scale compared with most of the frames in this game.

Yeah, Rhino doesn't need a nerf, and Iron Skin does need a rework. Rhino doesn't need a nerf because he does what other frames do but worse (with maybe the exception to Rhino Stomp).

[Morgax]

NO, no no no.

 

Rhino haves the most awesome stats for shields, health, armor; not only that but he also haves a huge powerful ultimate, and yet you still want him to be even more op?

Iron skin is a #2 ability, its normal it wont last high levels, its not supposed to make you an eternal immortal.

 

If frames with lower stats and less powerful abilities endure high enemy levels, why are the rhinos still acting so noob like and asking for this ridiculous buff.

 

 

 

Rhino is way out of balance, he needs a good nerf, because all ppl who noob out whit him never learn to play well, and then still complain he isnt good enough; when in fact he way overpower full.

His stats + is powerful abilities, specially the ultimate, makes him out of the scale compared with most of the frames in this game.

How about not insulting people? That would be great

 

You play a game that is about a teamwork, if you see a Rhino facetanking take advantage of that stay behind him and let him tank, meanwhile you can stay behind and not get shot.

 

I think this sort of mentality needs nerf not a warframe.

 

On the topic: Scaling based on map level is a good idea.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Morgax

[cyrus106]

he needs a bit of a nerf of iron skin

[Renegade343]

NO, no no no.

 

Rhino haves the most awesome stats for shields, health, armor; not only that but he also haves a huge powerful ultimate, and yet you still want him to be even more op?

Iron skin is a #2 ability, its normal it wont last high levels, its not supposed to make you an eternal immortal.

 

If frames with lower stats and less powerful abilities endure high enemy levels, why are the rhinos still acting so noob like and asking for this ridiculous buff.

I would like to point out that in order to get higher Iron Skin health, you need to play at high levels, and they deal quite a bit of damage. Basically, Rhino's Iron Skin would be tweaked in such a way that it acts a bit like a Nullifier Crewmen's shield mechanic. 

[Setsuna_Major]

How about Iron Skin functioning akin to Snowglobe? A few seconds of invulnerability, and the damage you take during that period is added to the health of Iron Skin. The normal amount of damage IS can take would be lowered, to compensate.

[7grims]

Yeah, Rhino doesn't need a nerf, and Iron Skin does need a rework. Rhino doesn't need a nerf because he does what other frames do but worse (with maybe the exception to Rhino Stomp).

 

How does he do worse?

Other frames have this logic:

- high stats and weak power abilities

- low stats and strong power abilities

- average stats and average power abilities

- and some fall in the ridiculous of having, low stats and weak abilities

 

Rhino haves it all good, his ultimate deals a good amount of damage, gives a stunt were enemies get frozen, and it obviously a great crowd control.

Take other frames #2 or #3 abilities, those wont work either or have much of an affect on high enemy levels, but somehow, for you, its make allot of logic, that rhinos #2 handles it and haves to be useful in high levels...

 

If he isn't already super op, which I believe he is, you are asking for him to be even more op with this request.

And again its an #2 ability, its energy cost is so cheap its not supposed be very useful in high levels, and again, its cheap, so just recast it.

 

 

 

 

EDIT-------------

Actually there is very good way to make this frame perfect the way you want, once iron skin is on, it drains energy every time he takes damage, until you are out or energy and iron skin wears off.

Edited February 8, 2015 by 7grims

[Ronyn]

Take other frames #2 or #3 abilities, those wont work either or have much of an affect on high enemy levels, 

No. Folks need to just stop saying this. It's true or false depending on the frame.

There are plenty of 1,2, and 3 skills that are friggin great well into late game.

At no point was it announced that the 1,2 and 3 skills should not scale well...

and that the game should be ALL about pressing just the 4 because its the only skill that's very effective late game.

 

More accurately, many frames have bread and butter skills in the 1,2, or 3 slot.

Nyx's mind controls like abilities, loki's stealth, Trinities energy vampire, frosts snow globe, vaubans CC...and more.

 

Seriously...like or dislike the OP's stance whatever...but don't act like 1,2, or 3 skills aren't often pivotal to a frames playstyle.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

Hello all,

 

Since Rhino's Iron Skin makes him rather easy to play at in lower levels, meaning that there is not much need to worry for players once they obtain Rhino, and that Iron Skin gets shredded at higher levels (as in: Level 30+, or maybe Level 35+), making the skill a bit useless, there are various suggestions to tweak Iron Skin to scale a bit more for higher level content, from bringing back damage reduction, to having very high damage reduction + aggro. But there is one suggestion that has not been made yet: Scaling in terms of enemy levels. 

It's an interesting thing to explore.

 

Sadly trying to discuss rhino these days triggers an odd emotional response in a lot of folks.

And emotional responses tend be somewhat blind and impartial.

For example:

Even when you readily acknowledge that its too strong in early levels and needs to be nerfed there....

some folks will only hear the part about making it stronger late game.

[jjpdn]

No.

It freaken "heals" you by 1000 + health.

INSTANTLY.

AND DEFENDS AGAINST PROC.

Making it scale will just be too OP.

 

Rhino Skin is not meant to make you stand there and shoot.

 

You still have to use your squishy Nova skills.

Edited February 8, 2015 by jjpdn

[Renegade343]

No.

It freaken "heals" you by 1000 + health.

INSTANTLY.

AND DEFENDS AGAINST PROC.

Making it scale will just be too OP.

Calculate the scaling: 

 

As enemy levels (and thus damage, as well as different units) go up, Iron Skin will scale roughly according to the damage dealt by enemies. That means roughly, Rhino's Iron Skin is shifted to "how many bullets would it protect Rhino from" instead of flat health. 

[LazyKnight]

NO, no no no.

Rhino haves the most awesome stats for shields, health, armor; not only that but he also haves a huge powerful ultimate, and yet you still want him to be even more op?

Just sniping your overall posts. Rhino's stats outside of Iron skin are not as high as Oberon, when they are both using mods for durability.

 

it is almost entirely moot to bring in base stats into a discussion, because only Valkyr has stats to tank without skills. 

 

From wiki :  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

 

 

 

Rhino's iron skin is broken because it does not scale. It is overpowered up to level 30 then rapidly falls off near level 40, and it is because the NPC increase in DPS (or damage per hit, but it translates into DPS) by:

 Current Damage = Base Damage * ( 1 + ( Current Level - Base Level )^1.6 * 0.013 )

 

This makes rhino effectively balanced for one level bracket, dependent on power strength mods.

Edited February 9, 2015 by LazyKnight

[RealPandemonium]

NO, no no no.

 

Rhino haves the most awesome stats for shields, health, armor; not only that but he also haves a huge powerful ultimate, and yet you still want him to be even more op?

This would nerf the ability at lower levels.  The idea is to give you a similar amount of protection regardless of the content.  The amount of protection it's intended to give would, of course, be adjusted.  It's better to leave it on the lower end to incentivize building power strength and creating a trade-off for max range builds.  

[jjpdn]

Calculate the scaling: 

 

As enemy levels (and thus damage, as well as different units) go up, Iron Skin will scale roughly according to the damage dealt by enemies. That means roughly, Rhino's Iron Skin is shifted to "how many bullets would it protect Rhino from" instead of flat health. 

Which means Rhino will finally become a tank?

 

I guess it would be alright... kind of.

 

It doesn't really feel like something DE would do though, especially with the Absorb nerf. 

 

(1000 damage -> more energy cost)

Edited February 9, 2015 by jjpdn

[Gelkor]

I've always felt the easiest way to affect Iron Skin scaling would simply be to put Iron Skin under Shields and/or Blocking (you can't block while using Iron Skin currently).

Edited February 9, 2015 by Gelkor

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino was always meant to be a tank.  A better scaling version of iron skin is certainly welcome.

 

Currently, iron skin is the absolute weakest damage reduction skill in the game at high levels.  People who say it's powerful like to ignore the fact that link, shatter shield, eclipse (in shadow), and hysteria are all MUCH more powerful.

[(PSN)Batframe]

            I have never had a problem with Iron Skin Strength mods seem to do nothing but benefit Rhino. Even in Rhino stomp I rather have the better initial attack than the status, and it the time it takes enemies to get up you should have enough time to pick up a teammate and pop your Iron Skin. In addition to that Iron skin with multiple strength mods is unbelievably strong. I've use my Rhino fairly recently on some T4 extermination (Red Veil Keys, PS4 still has them) missions, and only had to activate it once every three or four minutes in a decently loaded area of enemies. Lastly I feel like Rhino needs more nerfing (Not with iron skin!!!) to promote more players to use other warframes like Nyx or Ember (which believe it or not is a really good ranged Frame, a bit of a glass cannon but really effective with a power efficiency and strength loadout which is very easy to accomplish). BUFF EMBERS ARMOR PLEASE DEVS!!!

[Sixty5]

I'd rather see a similar mechanic to frost globe for iron skin.

Lower the base durability to say 1000, and then give it a 5 second invulnerability period where all damage absorbed gets added to the total pool, along with Rhinos armour, then multiply the whole thing by power strength.

At lower levels it makes Iron Skin a lot less potent, while making it much better later on.

In addition, it means that getting your casts of iron skin right becomes more skill based, instead of just "press 2 every time it goes down"

You want to draw as much agro and damage as possible in the first 5 seconds in order to become super beefy.

[Holeypaladin]

I'd rather see a similar mechanic to frost globe for iron skin.

Lower the base durability to say 1000, and then give it a 5 second invulnerability period where all damage absorbed gets added to the total pool, along with Rhinos armour, then multiply the whole thing by power strength.

At lower levels it makes Iron Skin a lot less potent, while making it much better later on.

In addition, it means that getting your casts of iron skin right becomes more skill based, instead of just "press 2 every time it goes down"

You want to draw as much agro and damage as possible in the first 5 seconds in order to become super beefy.

In addition to this, I'd like to see iron skin pick up the same recastability as snow globe.  I'm loving how snow globe can be refreshed to extend the duration and add to the health of the globe when doing defense missions, so that would be nice for iron skin too.

 

And during that 5 second period, iron skin should aggro all enemies into focusing their fire on him.

[jjpdn]

Huh I htought of something.

 

 

If you make this ability scale, wouldn't it turn into an offensive and defensive ability then with Iron Shrapnel that both scales?

[Renegade343]

If you make this ability scale, wouldn't it turn into an offensive and defensive ability then with Iron Shrapnel that both scales?

If you are willing to use up a mod slot or two to do that, then yes. 

[Kasarian]

No.

It freaken "heals" you by 1000 + health.

INSTANTLY.

AND DEFENDS AGAINST PROC.

Making it scale will just be too OP.

 

Rhino Skin is not meant to make you stand there and shoot.

 

You still have to use your squishy Nova skills.

It does not heal you. It's like saying Snow Globe heals everyone under its protection or that grants them immunity to pretty much everything while being under it.

 

Mentioned previously 5 second invulnerability to soak damage like Snow globe and Agro would be a nice change. Also Iron Shrapnel mod could make that recasting the skill (detonating it) would require energy to do so.

[sanj66]

It does not heal you. It's like saying Snow Globe heals everyone under its protection or that grants them immunity to pretty much everything while being under it.

 

Mentioned previously 5 second invulnerability to soak damage like Snow globe and Agro would be a nice change. Also Iron Shrapnel mod could make that recasting the skill (detonating it) would require energy to do so.

this is actually a horrible idea, reasons being, people would abuse the invulnerability period, proc sharpnel and recast, next you need to look at why this works on globe, globe is a large dome produced by frost, its easy to target due to the collective surface area it provides as a target, rhino is much smaller and with the enemy ai tweaks you could end up with a weaker version of iron skin that does not scale as you may not get hit by anything.

[Ronyn]

this is actually a horrible idea, reasons being, people would abuse the invulnerability period, proc sharpnel and recast, next you need to look at why this works on globe, globe is a large dome produced by frost, its easy to target due to the collective surface area it provides as a target, rhino is much smaller and with the enemy ai tweaks you could end up with a weaker version of iron skin that does not scale as you may not get hit by anything.

If we going to have a snowglobe style iron skin it would need a big aggro grab to make sure it actually pulled in enough damage. Issue solved.

However the infinite iron skin/iron shrapnel loop would likely become long periods of invulnerability...that is a problem.

Though it's really just a problem because there is so much energy floating around that a person could spam iron skin on off and on at free will.

in which case....any power that can be spammed can potentially be a problem.