Rhino's Iron Skin: Suggestion For Scaling (While Still Keeping It Relatively Balanced)

[Kasarian]

Cooldown between activation of Iron Skin? (so no abuse on that side, it would also force to think through whether you want to detonate the Iron skin or keep it for now)

Or Cooldown between "Invulnerability Proc".

[gkuoni]

If such scaling based off of enemy level were to happen, then a lot of other skills that aren't percentage based would need that buff too (excluding ultimates maybe). This would allow for the first 3 abilities being more of a go-to kind of ability late game when damage falls off.

[TheBrsrkr]

Why does everyone hate Iron Skin so much? In a T4, I don't wan the Iron  Skin to last for freaking EVER like it does in a t1, I just want it to not instantly melt off the moment I put it on. Leave the hurr durr me Rhino me Tank durr to the noobs please, not everyone thinks like that.

[GhostMelody]

One thing I think that would be nice for iron skin, is if they allow it to be affected by both armor and power mods; similar to frost's snowglobe

[sanj66]

One thing I think that would be nice for iron skin, is if they allow it to be affected by both armor and power mods; similar to frost's snowglobe

this is actually worse as it would make iron skin even more op at lower levels as it is now affected by armor and still drop off at higher levels though not as quick. like i suggested before on another thread a DR duration skill that does not stack DR from skill over DR from armor would force people to think, would provide adequate defensive capabilities, would scale and it would remove the tier inequity of the current IS op at low levels and up at higher. it also allows for less manipulation to make it op at lower tiers.

[GSDAkatsuki]

Rhino needs no buff, he's suppose to be a jack of all trades master of none frame. He has essentially every aspect of a frame without excelling in any particular aspect and should remain that way.

[Feallike]

Rhino doesn't need a buff or nerf. He needs a change.

 

Hes terrible Endgame and is too good Begingame. :/

 

 

I would suggest that the DE get rid of Rhino Stomp and replace it with another ability, then buff Rhino skin. That would make the most sense. 

 

 

I feel he should be a frame that's fine endgame. A jack of all trades. To do that Rhino skin needs to be based on hits not damage. Rhino Stomp needs its stun reduced and damage reduced, Rhino charge needs a bigger AOE, and Rhino Roar needs a slight buff and range buff.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Feallike

[Rakshal]

Rhino needs no buff, he's suppose to be a jack of all trades master of none frame. He has essentially every aspect of a frame without excelling in any particular aspect and should remain that way.

You just described Excalibur (or what he is advertised as). Rhino is suppose to be a tank.

[sanj66]

Rhino needs no buff, he's suppose to be a jack of all trades master of none frame. He has essentially every aspect of a frame without excelling in any particular aspect and should remain that way.

check his codex and intro vid by the company, he is supposed to be a tank frame not a jack of all trades, excal is actually supposedly the jack of all trades. also being a jack of all trades has nothing to do with creating scaling but still having drawbacks, its not a buff but a rework to balance out IS to not make it too op at low levels and not useless at higher levels. hey valkyr was a berserker but she can out tank everyone what about that? or trinity a healer than can out tank the supposed tanks in game?

Edited February 17, 2015 by sanj66

[RealPandemonium]

check his codex and intro vid by the company, he is supposed to be a tank frame not a jack of all trades, excal is actually supposedly the jack of all trades. also being a jack of all trades has nothing to do with creating scaling but still having drawbacks, its not a buff but a rework to balance out IS to not make it too op at low levels and not useless at higher levels. hey valkyr was a berserker but she can out tank everyone what about that? or trinity a healer than can out tank the supposed tanks in game?

Lol, who cares?  He is what he is and there's no reason to change it now.  

[Holeypaladin]

You just described Excalibur (or what he is advertised as). Rhino is suppose to be a tank.

This exactly.

 

Excalibur is supposed to be the jack of all trades, but currently he's the master of "4 to win rep farming".

 

Rhino is supposed to be the tank, yet currently he is a roar/stomp bot.

 

Iron skin needs a rework.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[GSDAkatsuki]

check his codex and intro vid by the company, he is supposed to be a tank frame not a jack of all trades, excal is actually supposedly the jack of all trades. also being a jack of all trades has nothing to do with creating scaling but still having drawbacks, its not a buff but a rework to balance out IS to not make it too op at low levels and not useless at higher levels. hey valkyr was a berserker but she can out tank everyone what about that? or trinity a healer than can out tank the supposed tanks in game?

Doesn't matter what codex says, fact of matter is that excalibur is 4 spam or CC frame. Rhino can do both in 1 ability and still have survivability and option to be team buffer. They can say he's a tank but we clearly see ingame that he doesn't function that way at all, and excal does not fit that balance frame either.

If we actually took DE'S statements seriously, than Valkyr wouldn't be a tank frame and actually be a berserker class. Oberon would be that paladin class, but he's still not. Mirage is the illusionist tricks frame, but she's really programmed functionality wise to be a pure dps frame.

Edited February 17, 2015 by GSDAkatsuki

[Liberty83]

What I always find funny is going from playing Ember or Banshee to playing Rhino and then reading these threads.

 

Iron Skin is an amazing ability because it A. Blocks procs that would bypass shields. B. Provides Immunity to CC / Stagger effects and C. Provides an HP buffer that isn't limited by power duration. 

 

Having those first two properties with an extra 2200 HP (maxed transient fortitude / Intensify) for the low low cost of 12.5 energy is amazing.  Combine that with a movment knockdown power and a hard 8 second CC and you have an amazing kit for a tank before you even factor in the armor rating and bonus shields.  Roar is really just icing on the cake being able to buff your own damage as well as your teammates allowing you to really round things out as a truly versatile team tank (rather than a selfish one).

 

If anything could change it would be Ironskin being affected by armor mods and maybe a small bump in his HP pool (125 or 150 base) to really drive home that "Tank theme"

Edited February 17, 2015 by Liberty83

[GhostMelody]

this is actually worse as it would make iron skin even more op at lower levels as it is now affected by armor and still drop off at higher levels though not as quick. like i suggested before on another thread a DR duration skill that does not stack DR from skill over DR from armor would force people to think, would provide adequate defensive capabilities, would scale and it would remove the tier inequity of the current IS op at low levels and up at higher. it also allows for less manipulation to make it op at lower tiers.

So snow globe is not strong on lower levels?

Matter of fact, what ability isn't strong on lower levels?

[sanj66]

So snow globe is not strong on lower levels?

Matter of fact, what ability isn't strong on lower levels?

snow globe has the extra factor to take into consideration or rather 2 factos, range and duration that you need to balance out.

[sanj66]

What I always find funny is going from playing Ember or Banshee to playing Rhino and then reading these threads.

 

Iron Skin is an amazing ability because it A. Blocks procs that would bypass shields. B. Provides Immunity to CC / Stagger effects and C. Provides an HP buffer that isn't limited by power duration. 

 

Having those first two properties with an extra 2200 HP (maxed transient fortitude / Intensify) for the low low cost of 12.5 energy is amazing.  Combine that with a movment knockdown power and a hard 8 second CC and you have an amazing kit for a tank before you even factor in the armor rating and bonus shields.  Roar is really just icing on the cake being able to buff your own damage as well as your teammates allowing you to really round things out as a truly versatile team tank (rather than a selfish one).

 

If anything could change it would be Ironskin being affected by armor mods and maybe a small bump in his HP pool (125 or 150 base) to really drive home that "Tank theme"

this is literally living in a dream world, you cannot have max str, max efficiency and then claim roar is the icing on the cake, why? max efficiency and str break roar down to 4 seconds or so, even trying to make it back up it will be almost useless, plus 2200 IS lasts mere seconds in a t4 at the beginning, it can be 1 shotted by a bombard at lvl 35, and that is at the beginning remember its balanced around rotation C was it. like i pointed out adding armor just raises the lazy bar at lower levels as it makes it more op then but still falls off at higher levels breeding lazy players that will start to struggle and bring down their team later on. ember and banshee are not tank frames so you are comparing the tanking ability of non tank frames to a tank frame and then making it sound like he is god, god in warframe lies along the lines of valkyr, she can out tank rhino with just her natural stats, she can reach 1200+ armor and a huge hp pool, then she has a skill that gives her complete invincibility, add to the fact she is not a tank, then you have trinity a support caster who can out tank rhino, these are frames you need to compare to him not banshee or ember. also you seem to not realize an hp buffer is not a good thing compared to a duration timer, as a duration timer scales an hp buffer does not, an hp buffer can be reduced faster than duration timer and most times at a t4 it does. stomp is good its not great as other #4's it cannot be spammed like the rest of them and is a static skill, it isnt like tornado etc that has a continuous effect and has power in use on top of that.

[sappinmahsentry]

No.

It freaken "heals" you by 1000 + health.

INSTANTLY.

AND DEFENDS AGAINST PROC.

Making it scale will just be too OP.

 

Rhino Skin is not meant to make you stand there and shoot.

 

You still have to use your squishy Nova skills.

You know, I think I know someone who does that but better. But I can't put my finger on it.

Edited February 17, 2015 by sappinmahsentry

[Valar.Morghulis]

I have a love hate relationship with Rhino, I love him in the early-mid game and hate him in the late game. The reason why is that he creates bad player habits the "Iron-Skin Tanks" are OK at lower-mid level they draw a lot of fire but they become so reliant on a single ability that when it becomes less effective many players simply can not adjust. They then come here to post the multitudes of "Buff/Fix Iron-Skin" posts that in reality the Rhino like many frames should use a buff but i do not think that Iron-Skin needs to be fixed as much as reworked.

 

My suggestion is to change the Rhino in to the tank he is meant to be. First off remove the movement penalty from the Rhino so that he can keep up with the rest of the group. His overall base Health/Shields/Armor are fine. Now need to address abilities first off is "Charge" this is a fairly lackluster ability, I would add a knock-back effect and 1/2/3/4 second movement speed effect in addition to his charge. Iron-Skin needs a rework all together instead of absorbing XXXX amount of damage it should grant damage resistances for a period of time to both Shield and Health and be affected by +Armor/Power/Duration mods, also the ability would be re-refreshable. Roar/Stomp are in a good place already and do not need any changes.

 

The goal is to make the frame better at the higher end without making it overpowered and stop the bad behavior of players trying to stand in place and shoot like a turret. These changes will make the Rhino scale much better with mods like Vitality/Redirections/Vigor/Steelfiber/Intensify/Continuity. 

[RealPandemonium]

this is literally living in a dream world, you cannot have max str, max efficiency and then claim roar is the icing on the cake, why? max efficiency and str break roar down to 4 seconds or so, even trying to make it back up it will be almost useless

Primed Continuity and Constitution will negate that penalty entirely.  You can also throw in a medium-rank Narrow Minded for a prolonged duration (and really far Charges.)

 

Primed Continuity makes such a difference that it's a shame that it's locked behind exclusivity and void grind.

Edited February 18, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[sanj66]

Primed Continuity and Constitution will negate that penalty entirely.  You can also throw in a medium-rank Narrow Minded for a prolonged duration (and really far Charges.)

 

Primed Continuity makes such a difference that it's a shame that it's locked behind exclusivity and void grind.

you cant consider primed continuity as not every got a chance to get it and we dont know, if/when it will show back up in the rotation cycle, a medium rank NM just adds another factor to balance in a slot you do not have. also other than IS your frame will be running naked, 3 power strength mods, 2 efficiency mods, you would still need to even put maybe flow in because your efficiency will still be very poor, thats 6/8 slots, using constitution and continuity wont make up the down side of transient fortitude and fleeting expertise and now that means once IS is down your dead. if you want to beef your rhino up so that doesn't happen and add vitality and redirection your roar is still at 4 seconds or less. even if you go 2 as he says you only have 2 naturally available duration mods with no added downside to use, using 2 power strength mods, 2 efficiency. 3 duration, then you would need to add in your last slot a range mod, it ends up back up naked once IS is down and 2200 hp can be 1 shotted easily by a bombard.

Edited February 18, 2015 by sanj66

[RealPandemonium]

you cant consider primed continuity as not every got a chance to get it and we dont know, if/when it will show back up in the rotation cycle, a medium rank NM just adds another factor to balance in a slot you do not have. also other than IS your frame will be running naked, 3 power strength mods, 2 efficiency mods, you would still need to even put maybe flow in because your efficiency will still be very poor, thats 6/8 slots, using constitution and continuity wont make up the down side of transient fortitude and fleeting expertise and now that means once IS is down your dead. if you want to beef your rhino up so that doesn't happen and add vitality and redirection your roar is still at 4 seconds or less. even if you go 2 as he says you only have 2 naturally available duration mods with no added downside to use, using 2 power strength mods, 2 efficiency. 3 duration, then you would need to add in your last slot a range mod, it ends up back up naked once IS is down and 2200 hp can be 1 shotted easily by a bombard.

We're assuming max efficiency.  Something like this would require you to recast Roar relatively often but otherwise doesn't have a real downside: http://goo.gl/2gtb6d  

 

People need to stop equipping maxed Blind Rages.  It's really annoying hearing fallacious arguments about Efficiency being too costly when it's really not.

[Serialkillerwhale]

At this point, Rhino and Frost aren't tanks. Everything is about spamming CC like a goddamn mage no matter who you are.

 

THAT IS A PROBLEM.

[Ronyn]

We're assuming max efficiency.  Something like this would require you to recast Roar relatively often but otherwise doesn't have a real downside: http://goo.gl/2gtb6d

People need to stop equipping maxed Blind Rages.  It's really annoying hearing fallacious arguments about Efficiency being too costly when it's really not.

That build you listed gives great power efficiency but it means iron skin only has 2200 or so HP which is really not that a lot at higher levels.

It's basically a stomp spam build which is technically viable but is the kind of thing that many folks find the kind of ULT spam that isn't a good thing. To get the best iron skin (3400 hp) requires a mod set up that uses all power strength mods (including blind rage) which will lessen power efficiency. To bring power efficiency back you need to lower power duration witch kills charge and turns roar into something you have to spam. 

Edited February 19, 2015 by Ronyn

[RealPandemonium]

That build you listed gives great power efficiency but it means iron skin only has 2200 or so HP which is really not that a lot at higher levels.

It's basically a stomp spam build which is technically viable but is the kind of thing that many folks find the kind of ULT spam that isn't a good thing. To get the best iron skin (3400 hp) requires a mod set up that uses all power strength mods (including blind rage) which will lessen power efficiency. To bring power efficiency back you need to lower power duration witch kills charge and turns roar into something you have to spam. 

2200 HP is fine in T4 content before infinite content numbers start kicking in (just because it only takes a few hits at this level doesn't mean it's useless; those few hits allow you to play in a completely different manner from other warframes.)  Allowing armor to affect IS or scaling it to enemy level somehow could make it a little better at this point but it it serviceable as-is.  Being able to use all your abilities effectively with a 2200 HP IS is objectively better than having a 3400 HP IS and not even being able to cast it freely due to lower efficiency in addition to neutering pretty much all of your abilities (especially Charge and Roar, though some people prefer a short range Charge for effortless knockdowns in melee.)

[cyrus106]

That build you listed gives great power efficiency but it means iron skin only has 2200 or so HP which is really not that a lot at higher levels.

It's basically a stomp spam build which is technically viable but is the kind of thing that many folks find the kind of ULT spam that isn't a good thing. To get the best iron skin (3400 hp) requires a mod set up that uses all power strength mods (including blind rage) which will lessen power efficiency. To bring power efficiency back you need to lower power duration witch kills charge and turns roar into something you have to spam.

This reasoning is exactly why many frown upon rhino mains. Focusing SOLELY on iron skin is a selfish build, at least a stomp build brings cc to the table and helps the team friend Edited February 19, 2015 by cyrus106