Powercreep, Does It Exist? [Debait]

[Vargras]

why cant we be friends sings song...

Says the guy whose first response to someone was to insult them.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Power creep is a term with a negative connotation. It suggests the devaluing of current content (currency in all it's forms: health, shields, DPS, Orokin Cells, time, credit, platinum, real $, etc) through inflation. Growth and power inflation through expansion is inevitable. The key is to provide satisfying new content as the game expands (the "Primes"/prime access are one such construct).

It's often overlooked, but the other part of the contract is that players need to recognize and accept the experience for what it is. Becoming Pavlov's dog and grinding for that next treat that may or may not come, pulling the handle on the RnGesus slot machine over and over, recognizing that new and more powerful items will cause inflation, that's just part of the deal. Enjoy the beautiful aspects of Warframe for the work of art that it is, and revel in the anticipation that getting to that next hoop gives you the tingly anticipation of getting a chance at that new magical treat that just got introduced...that few others have access to.

Edited February 17, 2015 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Chhkt]

So while it does exist, it currently isn't a huge problem in Warframe

I think new players around MR2 buying Soma Primes and Synoids and Boltors because they hear they are the absolute top tier weapons is a problem. It has been discussed many times, and presented in many ways, but when new players get a hold of this stuff most quickly complain the game is boring or easy. Thereafter they are liable to drift away from the game.

 

So yes, powercreep is a gigantic problem in relation to the ENTIRE playerbase, not just the veterans.

[swihart91]

Hopefully raid help balance this power creep slightly

[SteeleTheShow]

1. Remove serration and multishot. That would be a big step in the right direction. Those mods are not optional in any build, therefore they don't add any kind of depth to the gameplay.

2. Rank weapons (so many ways to do this. Pick anything). Have a clear progression of weapon upgrades (which will require a major overhaul and dozens more weapons) or make all weapons viable and ha e different utilities (my vote)

3. Remove enemy scaling. We don't need bullet sponges. Enemy types should have set difficulty levels....it doesn't make sense otherwise. Currently it's either a heavy, or it's in the way of killing a heavy. Nobody cares about anything else. (At high levels its all heavies anyway so why wouldn't they just always deploy their infinite masses of heavies in the first place?).

4. Remove heavy weapons as an option for primary weapons. Making them have nearly unlimited ammo with huge AOE and basically 1HKO with no drawbacks is terrible.

5. Make elemental bonuses decrease the damage a weapon does. It should be a trade off for elemental bonuses, not a pure damage boost.

6. Make powers not so spammable. You shouldn't be able to activate all powers all the time. There needs to be a global cool down on all powers for your frame. I want to see powers used more strategically. I would also like to see powers have mutations (like low damage in an AOE or high damage vs 1 etc)

Warframe is such an amazing game but it's problem of power creep must be addressed.

Edited February 17, 2015 by SteeleTheShow

[SteeleTheShow]

Power creep is a term with a negative connotation. It suggests the devaluing of current content (currency in all it's forms: health, shields, DPS, Orokin Cells, time, credit, platinum, real $, etc) through inflation. Growth and power inflation through expansion is inevitable. The key is to provide satisfying new content as the game expands (the "Primes"/prime access are one such construct).

It's often overlooked, but the other part of the contract is that players need to recognize and accept the experience for what it is. Becoming Pavlov's dog and grinding for that next treat that may or may not come, pulling the handle on the RnGesus slot machine over and over, recognizing that new and more powerful items will cause inflation, that's just part of the deal. Enjoy the beautiful aspects of Warframe for the work of art that it is, and revel in the anticipation that getting to that next hoop gives you the tingly anticipation of getting a chance at that new magical treat that just got introduced...that few others have access to.

I do not agree with inflation being good in the economy or in my games. Also inflation and devaluation have negative connotations as well.

[Sixty5]

I think new players around MR2 buying Soma Primes and Synoids and Boltors because they hear they are the absolute top tier weapons is a problem. It has been discussed many times, and presented in many ways, but when new players get a hold of this stuff most quickly complain the game is boring or easy. Thereafter they are liable to drift away from the game.

 

So yes, powercreep is a gigantic problem in relation to the ENTIRE playerbase, not just the veterans.

That isn't powercrepe, that is stupid weapon gating mechanics.

Big difference

[Chhkt]

That isn't powercrepe, that is stupid weapon gating mechanics.

Big difference

Not really. If you think about it, why do people right out of the tutorial missions want these weapons? Because they get wind that nothing else compares to them.

[OniDax]

1. Remove serration and multishot. That would be a big step in the right direction. Those mods are not optional in any build, therefore they don't add any kind of depth to the gameplay.

2. Rank weapons (so many ways to do this. Pick anything). Have a clear progression of weapon upgrades (which will require a major overhaul and dozens more weapons) or make all weapons viable and ha e different utilities (my vote)

3. Remove enemy scaling. We don't need bullet sponges. Enemy types should have set difficulty levels....it doesn't make sense otherwise. Currently it's either a heavy, or it's in the way of killing a heavy. Nobody cares about anything else. (At high levels its all heavies anyway so why wouldn't they just always deploy their infinite masses of heavies in the first place?).

4. Remove heavy weapons as an option for primary weapons. Making them have nearly unlimited ammo with huge AOE and basically 1HKO with no drawbacks is terrible.

5. Make elemental bonuses decrease the damage a weapon does. It should be a trade off for elemental bonuses, not a pure damage boost.

6. Make powers not so spammable. You shouldn't be able to activate all powers all the time. There needs to be a global cool down on all powers for your frame. I want to see powers used more strategically.

Warframe is such an amazing game but it's problem of power creep must be addressed.

 

Well, there shouldn't be masses of heavies, ever. There should be mostly cannon fodder, then a fair amount of tougher enemies, then those supplemented by heavies, and then even fewer special minibosses/tough enemies. As well, there certainly shouldn't be enemy scaling. There should be low level enemies that are a fair challenge for low-ranked/low-equipped players. Then there should be more elite units that are tougher, than are visually different to stand out from the low level, standard enemies. Then there are more specialized units, that might not be tougher than the elite units, but that use more specialized weaponry, then there are the heavies, which aren't elite but are just, heavy with heavy weapons. Then there are fewer leaders that show up. As well, I think it'd be great if DE worked on the AI of different factions to make them stand out. Grineer should be more disciplined, with a more rigid unit structure. They should be separated in to fire-teams and squads, with a clear leader. A few groups of these squads could have a clear leader, as well as supplemented by a heavy and a couple elite units. Specialized units could show up as well (like a buddy team of Manics, for example, or two snipers, or two shield lancers, or even a wall of shield lancers). The Corpus could be mostly robotics, with fewer Crewmen. I'm of the opinion that the Grineer and Corpus should overcome the Tenno with numbers, not with brute strength. Otherwise, why fear the Tenno?

[Sixty5]

I do not agree with inflation being good in the economy or in my games. Also inflation and devaluation have negative connotations as well.

A small degree of controlled inflation over time is actually desirable.

It indicates that an economy is growing.

Powercrepe in games is slightly different, as a general rise in power just means that nothing has changed but the size of the numbers.

What you do want is for a steady supply of new content that justifies the increase in power.

Though is has to be the right sort of power. Mods or mechanics that increase the players power are goid in this respect, as there is a general increase in power. Weapons that are significantly more powerful on the other hand break out of the power curve and centralise the Metagame.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

I do not agree with inflation being good in the economy or in my games. Also inflation and devaluation have negative connotations as well.

They are essential parts of Warframe's game design and about 99% of current games use some version of this design. To some it is a necessary evil or a flaw. I accept it for what it is.

Edited February 17, 2015 by (PS4)Silverback73

[RoboDoge]

Progression =/= power creep

Depends really.

 

 

Warframe progression is directly tied to powercreep as DE tends to release weapons that outshine others with new additions. And dont let me start on mods.

 

 

Remember how in U7 and U8 we hardly could do 30 waves on Xini? Now doing 30 waves is laughable because of new mods and weapons.

[vaugahn]

Depends really.

Warframe progression is directly tied to powercreep as DE tends to release weapons that outshine others with new additions. And dont let me start on mods.

Remember how in U7 and U8 we hardly could do 30 waves on Xini? Now doing 30 waves is laughable because of new mods and weapons.

That's not always progression though.

Think of the poor Ignis. It's clantech, which means it requires at least 4 forma and some 12-hour resources to get. Something with a cost like that isn't really a beginner weapon. And yet it's got DPS on par with Bratons, while its Corpus equivalent (Amprex) is one of the strongest weapons in the game.

That's power creep.

[jfhsanseiIII]

Short answer for me (Read my opinion), power creep should exist up until a certain point. Where mechanics and player skill take over. Some of the newer units have been a good, not perfect, start. Also warframw abilities and weapon synergy are something that could be looked at. Also, the focus system, if it's still a thing, could be a boon.

Powercreep is bad because it gets boring after a while and creates a overwhelmingly high barrier to entry for new players, which is something DE needs to avoid for a F2P game.

[jfhsanseiIII]

Short answer for me (Read my opinion), power creep should exist up until a certain point. Where mechanics and player skill take over. Some of the newer units have been a good, not perfect, start. Also warframw abilities and weapon synergy are something that could be looked at. Also, the focus system, if it's still a thing, could be a boon.

Powercreep is bad because it gets boring after a while and creates a overwhelmingly high barrier to entry for new players, which is something DE needs to avoid for a F2P game.

[Egg_Chen]

No it does not exist, the Gorgon was the most powerful gun when I started back in U7 and it still is.

[SteeleTheShow]

A small degree of controlled inflation over time is actually desirable.

It indicates that an economy is growing.

Powercrepe in games is slightly different, as a general rise in power just means that nothing has changed but the size of the numbers.

What you do want is for a steady supply of new content that justifies the increase in power.

Though is has to be the right sort of power. Mods or mechanics that increase the players power are goid in this respect, as there is a general increase in power. Weapons that are significantly more powerful on the other hand break out of the power curve and centralise the Metagame.

I understand the economics of inflation, I just don't agree with it. But otherwise, I think we agree that power creep needs to be addressed.

They are essential parts of Warframe's game design and about 99% of current games use some version of this design. To some it is a necessary evil or a flaw. I accept it for what it is.

I wouldn't even say 99% of multiplayer games, let alone all games depend on power creep. As we said, progression =/= power creep. In order for power creep to be progression there needs to be a limit to how big the numbers get. There needs to be a scale. Without a measurement system, it's just mesmerizing people with really big numbers and making those numbers even bigger. Which is why things like endless defense (and therefore endless enemy scaling) is a terrible idea. Edited February 18, 2015 by SteeleTheShow

[aSmileyLemon]

DEbait.

I'm funny.

[arKRazor]

Not sure if misspelling or clever intentional misspelling.

(This space is filled with that Fry meme, you know the one... I don't even really need to put it up)

[Sputter]

Power creep exists from the complete lack of weapon balancing and just adding more powerful version of said weapon creating power creep. Hence you get more weapons that are junk and stay junk because they just add a better version all the time. I for one want a large number of equally powerful weapons but each having different play styles or traits.

[(PSN)torvahn]

Power creep is stupid and doesn't exist.

Get off your mercury missions and play some void

[vaugahn]

Power creep is stupid and doesn't exist.

Get off your mercury missions and play some void

Sarcasm, or...

[(PSN)No-Hero_ZER0]

that guy with the 1 2 3 4 list.... you are a horrible person. But Waframe is a great game.

 

Add mini boss to all missions.

 

random hunts on planets

 

Dont want day one players with best gear make it Rank 8

 

maybe have mobs be able to block or parry like us.... not take away spamming

[Blatantfool]

I don't think there is any point in debating it.

 

 Look up the list of weapons in the game and the kind of stats or DPS they could manage around Update 6.

 

 Now take a good long look at the weapons that are considered most viable right now.

 

 

 Those weapons are viable BECAUSE they are, in nearly every sense, better than anything else you could make. It's common - though not the rule - for those top tier weapons to be fairly recent. There aren't a whole lot of the older guns left who can sit at the forefront of the arsenal and say "I can backpack you through the worst of it."

 

 If that doesn't satisfy you quite enough, look at our mods. We've now got an entire subset of mods that exists entirely to be stronger versions of their older selves. Past that you've got dual effect mods like the '+Proc rate, +Elemental damage' varieties that are often better mods then BOTH of the mods that would typically represent the effects singled out.

 

 You tell me, what are you looking to throw in your gun?

 

 Option A) - a mod that adds 15% bonus status chance to your Rifle for 9 mod points?

 Option B) - a mod that adds 60% bonus status chance on TOP of 60% of a single elemental damage for 7 mod points?

 

 And I don't even have to ask you which mod sounds more recent. We both already know.

 

 So yes. Absolutely. There is absolutely a power creep issue. The REAL question that needs be talked about, hopefully with a reasonable degree of open mindedness, is how we could be asking DE to lessen it and smooth out the upward curve. ('Getting rid' of power creep entirely is complicated enough that for our purposes we should simply presume it can't be done)

[Omnimorph]

It exists, but while it matters a lot in a PvP game, it doesn't matter all that much in a PvE game.  A bit, but not much.

 

Balance matters much more, powercreep is just a question of numbers, and essentially all you have to do is (so to speak) shift a decimal point.  So long as things are balanced against each other, it doesn't matter what the numbers are in absolute terms, and bigger numbers are simply more psychologically gratifying. 

 

It's just a psychological trick - all a PvE game has to do is balance player and player skill against mobs, that's the only important thing.  If you take your average MMO, the "difficulty" you have against a mob at level 1 is the same as the "difficulty" you have against a mob at level 80, all that changes is a) your skill as a player, b) your range of options and abilities, and c) the numbers.  But 10 damage vs 10 hit points is effectively exactly the same as 100 damage against 100 hitpoints.

 

It's only a problem if the devs think it's a problem (i.e. if they really think it makes any content they make redundant), it's not a problem for players, even for players who want a challenge, because of the infinite scaling (as much challenge as you want right there, right up to the bleeding edge).

Edited February 18, 2015 by Omnimorph