Bombards - Another Terribly Broken, Badly Designed Enemy

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Bombards, like Nullifiers, absolutely exemplify the concept of a broken and poorly designed enemy. Unlike Nullifiers, however, the reason Bombards are so broken and poorly designed has less to do with the Bombards themselves, and more to do with the rockets they fire. Allow me to explain.

 

First of all, the homing effect on the rockets is absolutely insane. They will literally follow you around corners, make perfect 180-degree U-turns, and completely ignore any attempt to redirect them. They are nearly completely impossible to avoid in almost every situation. This brings me to my second topic, and the primary point of this thread.

 

Second, the explosions from Bombard rockets do not require line of sight. This means that the explosion will still damage you through solid objects, Volt's Electric Shield and Frost's Snow Globe, damage things inside of Nyx's absorb bubble, and although I have never seen this personally, I've heard reports that the damage even goes through Limbo's rift. I really don't see any way in which this could possibly be anything other than a bug that needs fixing. I heavily considered putting this thread in the bug reports section before putting it here.

 

Another major issue that I would like to bring up is that Zephyr's Turbulence has absolutely no effect on Bombard rockets. When Turbulence is active and a rocket gets near me, I can see it veer off course, before immediately curving back around and directly hitting me every single time. This is caused by the homing effect of the rockets actually being stronger than Turbulence's redirection effect. Once again, I really don't see any way in which this could possibly be anything other than a bug that needs fixing.

 

In short:

 

1. Bombard rockets' homing effect is far too strong

 

2. Bombard rocket explosions damage you through solid objects

 

3. Zephyr's Turbulence has no effect on Bombard rockets

 

Fixes:

 

1. Reduce the strength of the homing effect

 

2. Make the explosions require line of sight from the center of the blast

 

3. Make any rocket that hits Zephyr's Turbulence lose its homing

 

The fundamental design of Bombards is buggy and broken. It's time to fix this horribly poorly designed enemy.

Edited February 21, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3
Less rage/profanity, more objectivity when making feedback please.

[Valkyr-Umbra]

Little harsh, maybe? There's certainly room for fine-tuning, but its a matter of priorities. Do we want the bombards reworked first, or 8 player raids? Its a minor imbalance, definitely not a disgrace.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Snowman486

[Zoracraft]

Little harsh, maybe? There's certainly room for fine-tuning, but its a matter of priorities. Do we want the bombards reworked first, or 8 player raids? Its a minor imbalance, definitely not a disgrace.

Bombards reworked: easy answer

Why? Because the raids will be broken as hek with current bombards

[Feallike]

Nah I like hard enemies, also it only takes a bit of parkour to dodge them. Its harder than a average enemy but its not that much harder. Ofcourse I might just be to MLG, but I think if they get a nerf it should be for a slight ROF nerf on the void counterparts.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Little harsh, maybe? There's certainly room for fine-tuning, but its a matter of priorities. Do we want the bombards reworked first, or 8 player raids? Its a minor imbalance, definitely not a disgrace.

 

It doesn't change the fact that Bombards are clearly the product of lazy, thoughtless game design. Lazy, thoughtless game design is always disgraceful to the developers. Personally, I would rather get the raids a few days later than expected and have Bombards and Nullifiers reworked, as opposed to having the raids arrive early or on time.

 

Nah I like hard enemies, also it only takes a bit of parkour to dodge them. Its harder than a average enemy but its not that much harder. Ofcourse I might just be to MLG, but I think if they get a nerf it should be for a slight ROF nerf on the void counterparts.

 

The ridiculous homing effect is probably the least bad of the issues here, but they still damage you through walls and ignore Zephyr's Turbulence.

Edited February 20, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Noble_Cactus]

Little harsh, maybe? There's certainly room for fine-tuning, but its a matter of priorities. Do we want the bombards reworked first, or 8 player raids? Its a minor imbalance, definitely not a disgrace.

 

If the 8man raids have Bombards in them, then the Bombards should be tweaked first. Especially if it's just a mater of "fine-tuning" like you said.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Noble_Cactus

[Valkyr-Umbra]

If the 8man raids have Bombards in them, then the Bombards should be tweaked first. Especially if it's just a mater of "fine-tuning" like you said.

I don't know if its simply a "matter of fine-tuning" but I think there is room for fine-tuning. Whether or not more than that is required is something the devs will decide. 

 

I play a lot of void, and while at times the bombards can feel a bit unfair, its nothing that I feel is game-breaking. I care more about seeing this next update come out as promised, then adding on to it. 

 

That's just my personal opinion, others obviously are more annoyed by bombards than myself.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Snowman486

[taiiat]

i'm far more in a gripe that like most Enemies, they don't need to reload.

it would seem like a great balance to me, for Bombards and Napalms to reload after every other shot.

(also i'm 99% sure that Corrupted Bombard Missiles sometimes LITERALLY turn invisible. not hard to see, they actually disappear, turning into homing ghost Damage)

Enemies in general should need to stop shooting once in a while. we need to, therefore they should also.

yes, i've seen Enemies reload just like anyone else. but it's seemingly random.

a quick set of examples.

Grakata armed Lancers reloading every 30 shots.

Karak armed Lancers reloading every 20 shots.

Hind armed Lancers reloading every 15 shots.

Sniper Enemies reloading every ~4 shots.

Continuous Enemies reloading after ~10 seconds of fire.

Sobek armed Troopers reloading after 10 shots.

Dera armed Crewman reloading every 40 shots.

Detron armed Crewman reloading every 5 shots. maybe 3.

Gorgon armed Heavy Gunners reloading every 50 shots.

Et Cetera.

this forces Enemies to have breaks in their fire on Tenno. not long ones, but having them at all. gives the opportunity for Players that are pinned down to move, opportunity to more safely attack, yadda yadda.

also makes a big stride in reducing things like CC chains and other things that are pretty yucky.

[Paradoxbomb]

Certain explosive attacks, namely Bombard/Napalm projectiles, should really have a limited amount of punch-through. Getting injured when trying to hide behind a thin piece of railing is understandable, but getting knocked over, set on fire, and taking excessive damage through a 5m thick object or even on the other side of a wall?

 

It would also be nice if these projectiles could be shot down. Some people say it already is possible but I've never seen it, so at the very least it could be made a more reliable strategy.

[LikeABawsh]

First of all, the homing effect on the rockets is absolutely insane. They will literally follow you around corners, make perfect 180-degree U-turns, and completely ignore any attempt to redirect them. 

While your complaints on their redirection are true, the whole "180-degree u-turns" thing is bogus. I've never seen that and my go-to defense to get away from them is to do a sharp turn around a wall.

 

Second, the explosions from Bombard rockets do not require line of sight. This means that the explosion will still damage you through solid objects.

This is true for most explosive weapons. Explosives in general should be redone because of this issue, but it doesn't mean that Bombards themselves are broken.

 

3. Zephyr's Turbulence has no effect on Bombard rockets

Fair point, I guess.

[letir]

Little harsh, maybe? There's certainly room for fine-tuning, but its a matter of priorities. Do we want the bombards reworked first, or 8 player raids? Its a minor imbalance, definitely not a disgrace.

Why not both?

[Acos]

First, chill out a bit. Constructive feedback is one thing, but being insulting is more likely to get you ignored by developers who honestly have more important things to do than listen to your rant. 

Second: The bombard missiles actually aren't terribly difficult to dodge, it's just that they require a certain kind of wisdom that runs counter to your general survival tactics. Rather than trying to back up and away from the missiles, you're actually going to do better running towards them. Generally you run at the missile, veer off to the left or right a bit before impact, and then make the bombard choke on your sword/bullets/kubrow/whatever. For extra style points I've been using air melee to jump over the missile entirely and land on top of the bombard. The exp is delicious. 

I do agree that the explosions hitting through cover is a bit obnoxious and perhaps even physics defying, but I imagine they're done this way so that the Grineer have an enemy that encourages you to stay mobile and not get too attached to any one cover spot. Rollers and Corpus MOA serve a similar purpose. 

I don't think they're a poorly designed enemy. I think they're a difficult enemy. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by Acos

[Valkyr-Umbra]

Why not both?

Both would be fine. I just feel like this isn't such big problem that it needs to be addressed immediately. Some mechanics associate with bombards feel slightly unfair, but I don't think it should be at the top of DE's priorities. 

[Jylon]

the effect from zeph's turbulence is indeed annoying, since it will initially deflect the missles for a second, then the turn right back and continue on with a trollface on the detonator head  :B

[Valkyr-Umbra]

I do agree that the explosions hitting through cover is a bit obnoxious and perhaps even physics defying, but I imagine they're done this way so that the Grineer have an enemy that encourages you to stay mobile and not get too attached to any one cover spot. Rollers and Corpus MOA serve a similar purpose. 

This puts it well. I personally feel like a certain amount of the punch-through and tracking should be done away with, but its not a major concern.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Second: The bombard missiles actually aren't terribly difficult to dodge, it's just that they require a certain kind of wisdom that runs counter to your general survival tactics. Rather than trying to back up and away from the missiles, you're actually going to do better running towards them. Generally you run at the missile, veer off to the left or right a bit before impact, and then make the bombard choke on your sword/bullets/kubrow/whatever. For extra style points I've been using air melee to jump over the missile entirely and land on top of the bombard. The exp is delicious. 

 

When attempting to dodge the rockets, the best strategy definitely is running towards them and dodging away at the last second, but I've found that this only has about a 50% success rate, because the homing is so strong that it can turn to hit me even after I've dodged.

 

I do agree that the explosions hitting through cover is a bit obnoxious and perhaps even physics defying, but I imagine they're done this way so that the Grineer have an enemy that encourages you to stay mobile and not get too attached to any one cover spot. Rollers and Corpus MOA serve a similar purpose. 

 

This puts it well. I personally feel like a certain amount of the punch-through and tracking should be done away with, but its not a major concern.

 

They also hit you through Snow Globe and Electric Shield, damage things inside of Nyx's absorb bubble, go straight through Turbulence, and can reportedly damage targets on the other side of Limbo's rift. With these examples, it seems more probable that it's just a bug created by lazy game design.

Edited February 20, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[7grims]

To avoid rockets press twice on shift, although I'm not sure this mechanic is that good that will save ur life.

 

Apart from that corrupted bombards aren't that bad, just wish DE would tweek their AOE, so my sentinels doesn't die at the very first hit every-time.

Edited February 20, 2015 by 7grims

[Seanjuju]

Infinite homing needs to go. Knock-down needs to go. Missiles must be vulnerable to attack. 

 

To avoid rockets press twice on shift, although I'm not sure this mechanic is that good that will save ur life.

 

Apart from that corrupted bombards aren't that bad, just wish DE would tweek their AOE, so my sentinels doesn't die at the very first hit every-time.

I don't have much trouble with a single bombard but this isn't a game of solitary enemies. Like the nullifier, bombard's abilities are more in line with that of a boss or mini-boss. Dodging bombard rockets is possible but requires many conditions to be met. Dodging is very rarely an option when the rocket isn't fired from the direction you're facing or if its fired at an angle. Even if this condition is met and you succeed, if the distance between you and the bombard isn't in your favor to begin with, you might just roll to meet a knock-down or another rocket at almost point-blank range.   

 

The rarity of the bombard isn't in line with its level of power.  Either its rarity must rise or its power must become more reasonable. At the very least, its weapon needs a loud and distinctive sound to alert players of its presence like the heavy-gunner's gorgon. It's not unusual for a bombard to fire twice before anyone notices its there. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by Seanjuju

[Valar.Morghulis]

I honestly don't find the Bombards that difficult or their rockets... I will help you out with a few simple tactics to deal with them.

 

1:  The rockets can make a 90degree turn but it needs close to 3 meters to do this. So you can you Roll/Flip Right or Left less then a second before impact you can easily dodge and brake the homing property of the rocket.

 

2: If you have the Armor/Shields/Health to take the blast all together you can simply roll forward/flip backward in to the rocket, the animation makes you immune to knockdown effect.

 

3: Simply outrun the rocket most frames can sprint/slide/jump far faster then the rockets. this Tactic is similar to outrunning the fire wave the Arson Eximus release.

 

None of the tactics are going to help you if your not paying attention and take a rocket to the back of the head. If your getting hit by Arson Eximus fire waves then you probaly need to work on your mobility skills.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

I think Bombards should NOT fire their rockets once you get within a certain range since their blasts should hurt them like ours do us. Right now they have too much range, very good homing capability, rockets can seemingly chase you forever, can hit you with blast damage through closed doors and thick objects, blast damage radius from the rockets is way bigger than the visual effect shown to the player so guiding the rockets into an object can still get you hurt, can fire them pretty rapidly, you cant shoot them down with carefully aimed shots, rockets don't go away or even lose their homing capability after the bombard dies, all on top of being able to eat way more damage than a grunt. What drawback does this unit really have?

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I honestly don't find the Bombards that difficult or their rockets... I will help you out with a few simple tactics to deal with them.

 

1:  The rockets can make a 90degree turn but it needs close to 3 meters to do this. So you can you Roll/Flip Right or Left less then a second before impact you can easily dodge and brake the homing property of the rocket.

 

2: If you have the Armor/Shields/Health to take the blast all together you can simply roll forward/flip backward in to the rocket, the animation makes you immune to knockdown effect.

 

3: Simply outrun the rocket most frames can sprint/slide/jump far faster then the rockets. this Tactic is similar to outrunning the fire wave the Arson Eximus release.

 

None of the tactics are going to help you if your not paying attention and take a rocket to the back of the head. If your getting hit by Arson Eximus fire waves then you probaly need to work on your mobility skills.

 

When attempting to dodge the rockets, the best strategy definitely is running towards them and dodging away at the last second, but I've found that this only has about a 50% success rate, because the homing is so strong that it can turn to hit me even after I've dodged.

 

3m is almost nothing, and dodging at the last second can only get you so many degrees that the rocket has to turn.

 

They also hit you through Snow Globe and Electric Shield, damage things inside of Nyx's absorb bubble, go straight through Turbulence, and can reportedly damage targets on the other side of Limbo's rift.

[Ralsk]

Normal bombards I don't really have an issue with.  It's the corrupted ones that really need to be toned down.  Getting dang near one shot from across the map without any warning at all is complete crap.  Even if you do see the bombards their rockets are very fast, hard to dodge, and also pretty hard to see (at least IMO).  Probably would be better if you could see or hear the things but as it is you'll just be doing whatever and BOOM! suddenly you're laying on the ground with all your shield and most of your hp gone.  Oh and your sentInel is probably dead too.  To top all this off it's very possible you don't even know where the attack came from so you're probably gonna get nailed again right away.

[Vanadium]

Ok, first off: Whoa. Take a chill pill, dawg.

 

 

Geez, now that's out of the way...

 

For me, it's not so much the Bombards that are the issue, but the unholy union of Bombard and Nullifier. It's like a Bear with a Gun:

 

 

It's like, wtf am I supposed to do? And now that DE improved the AI so that they all try and crowd inside a Nullifier's bubble, each pairing becomes a war of attrition (which you lose in T4), or you attempt a mad kamikaze rush to kill the Nullifier and CC the Bombard (Godspeed!). I'll admit, it's a challenge, it just doesn't feel like the challenge I'm looking for. Really, it's just "keeping shooting and hope they die first" or "rush in and hope you kill them first".

 

I guess it all comes back to the fact that we need an AI 2.0 and some better execution for challenging enemies.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Vanadium

[akira_him]

You forgot napalms