This Was Very Poorly Designed Around Players With Arsenal Full Of Mods And Proves That Raids Consisting Of Lvl80 Enemies Isnt A Good Idea.

[kazeyama]

You can't extrapolate raids to this. First off having 8 players instead of 4 means you can run the standard loki, trin, whatever comp and still have 4 spots for team diversity. Level 80 seems high at first but 8 people with their best kits will shred through the enemies and damage spread across 8 people is easier to deal with than 4 people. Also throw in the unique mechanics, puzzles, and bosses/enemies and raids are an unknown factor. Not to say that raids won't potentially have some flawed design or poor gameplay choices, but you can't say that one mission with high level enemies is the same as every other mission no matter what. 

 

I think raids will depend more on team coordination than composition atleast I hope so. Cause from the preview they gave us it doesn't matter what frames you choose if you mess up the puzzle you all got fried regardless. 

[Maiemi]

We make it with

Vauban - Limbo - Excalibur - Loki

[Davoodoo]

You can't extrapolate raids to this. First off having 8 players instead of 4 means you can run the standard loki, trin, whatever comp and still have 4 spots for team diversity. Level 80 seems high at first but 8 people with their best kits will shred through the enemies and damage spread across 8 people is easier to deal with than 4 people. Also throw in the unique mechanics, puzzles, and bosses/enemies and raids are an unknown factor. Not to say that raids won't potentially have some flawed design or poor gameplay choices, but you can't say that one mission with high level enemies is the same as every other mission no matter what. 

 

I think raids will depend more on team coordination than composition atleast I hope so. Cause from the preview they gave us it doesn't matter what frames you choose if you mess up the puzzle you all got fried regardless. 

Still loki, you will always need loki.

 

You need to disable enemies or they will kill you.

Its not loki, its perma cc reliance to even fight such enemies.

 

And yes i can compare this alert to raids as i can compare that to every high lvl enemy encounter, nothing changed in our way of fighting high lvl enemies, when you get hit you lay flat on your face, so the trick is not to get hit.

 

First we used snow globe, then mixed snow globe with quake, then frost and vauban, after frost nerf it was time for loki + vauban and after nova got reworked we now use slow nova + loki.

 

If bosses are gonna be a problem we will just bring valkyr limbo or perma invis lokis and ashes to fight him, again its about not getting hit.

 

 

8 players could potentially bring some teamwork into play with rotating cc, switching tanks so they wont need to be healed, focusing fire.

But its all pointless, at this point ability spam is required to stand a chance against lvl80 horde and you cant simply remove it now as it will make raids near impossible and very costly.

 

And puzzle is most basic form of teamwork, if you repeatedly fail that then you are below 5man hc lvl of play in wow, which bots can complete just fine.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

If you are using the right squad composition, then you're doing it right. Of not, then try to do so. So what that the enemies are high level, it's called TACTICAL alert for a reason.

Meaning that you can't just omglolzergsanic rush it like normal missions. The Grineer aren't just gonna roll over and die when you threaten their very existence(lore wise). What I see is just DE figuring out a way for your conclave rating to actually matter in the game outside of the PvP. I can even open up my own thread on this to discuss this topic further if need be.

Some people, you know?

[fatpig84]

Redtext did explicitly said that this is for the guys who missed the bug right ?

 

Anyway I am sure Raids will have enough nullifers and co to render your 8 frames completely powerless except using guns that have the required DPS for 22k to break the boss's hp regen.

 

But whatever.

[Doomclaaw]

I did it first time with a volt and scindo with manticore skin, second time with my trinity and gallatine. Neither time required corrosive projection or disarm or other gimmicks to make it easy, just had to play smart, and stay mobile. I found it to be pretty fun. Not every tactical alert has to be deskflipping hard. This was a nice way to blow off some steam and just hack-n-slash. 

[sanj66]

I can see how the TA illustrates a fundamental issue with balance between frames and damage, but I do not see how this should be against raids. Raids are specifically meant to be, seemingly, the most end-game system we will have.

Balance between frames needs adjusting more than raids need a rethink.

yes but the issue is raids will be out before there is proper balance and as we can see from the history of the game balancing and retuning frames and weapons take almost forever, and after u16 they will just focus on some new flashy gimmick to trick players as usual instead of actually focusing on things that need attention.

[sanj66]

So did people just miss the redtext saying that they know this isn't a real challenge, and that this is all just for fun?

 

I feel like people missed that.

tbh i dont believe that, in the past they do that alot to try to palm off their mistakes and failures as jokes. its really getting annoying now and its to the point that alot of people just dont believe them or have much faith in them anymore. they rather push flashy bandaids patch after patch than work on things already in game and then fail miserably at those, aka dark sectors, archwing even melee 2.0 lost quite alot of hype.

[sanj66]

 

Why are people so salty about a joke mission that offers a free reward? 

its not about one mission its about alot of things in the past that just culminates atm, like i posted before alot of times in the past they just try to palm their failures and mistakes off as jokes and expect people to buy it, people are just fed up of it.

[Vargras]

its not about one mission its about alot of things in the past that just culminates atm, like i posted before alot of times in the past they just try to palm their failures and mistakes off as jokes and expect people to buy it, people are just fed up of it.

You uh... you realize that enemies having extreme scaling for this tactical alert was a bug, right? And they turned it into its own thing because people liked it, right?

 

You need to stop taking this stuff so seriously.

[SquirmyBurrito]

1 Limbo banishing squad mates, 1 Ash bladestorming, 1 Nekros casting fear on points to get enemies off them for easy kill free capping, and 1 Hydroid puddling and using tenticle swarm at the end of each round to help kill off the enemies he had collected.

 

It went well.

 

[wtrmlnjuc]

The fact that I see a variety of teams which beat this and differed a lot from mine (2 Lokis, 1 Valkyr, 1 Nova) proves that this alert isn't only beatable by one set of tools only.

 

And this kind of content is what endgame content really is. It's a little unbalanced atm with the oneshotting (well who cares it was for fun) but in general the mission is hard, but not impossible to beat. It does in fact, provide a challenge and a fair bit of thinking. Never have I ever had such an intense game in Warframe. Got a cool sigil in the end too.

[Glitchesarecool]

Well, I had fun with it. I didn't like the redtext calling this a moderate challenge, but it was amusing to see enemies that high level. 

 

I think people are yelling about raids because we saw the level 80 enemy as a highlight of it. This was double that level and still relatively simple to sort out.

[StarScribe]

I have a few ideas on aura related balancing matter, though just a thought... it might work. ***Gosh, I have no idea what I got my self into as I continue to type this, but to express my self correctly this may take some time ^_^ as new ideas keep coming into perspective for me... so here goes***

 

 

=== === ===

If say a raid consists of 8 players. Make it so that there is 2 squads made of 4 players per whole team during the raid... and the benefits of "most" auras are only shared only by members of that squad rather than accross all 8 players.

 

This will allow all 8 players to fight along side one another, but the aura system will continue to function like normal... preventing some extreme aura stacking that may potentially break the game in the most brutal manners possible, yet at the same time still allows increased mix and matching of combinations to a certain extent and infact may increase depth of the whole aura system all together.

 

As for the auras that affect the enemy directly like Corrosive Projection which apply the effects to enemies rather than your self and teammates, there is also a very simple solution to the problem. Rebalance the mods to work differently when used specifically in the raids, similarly to how some things are rebalanced and work differently in pvp.

 

For example, when you use Corrosive Projection normally, what happens is the enemy armor rating gets directly reduced, same goes for the shield reducing auras. Now there is a balancing problem in that for people could bring auras on both teams to completely negate both shields and armor of their enemies entirely, this would in turn make a game far less challenging than it may have been intended.

 

So instead of doing that, to still allow players reap the usual benefits of those auras it would be better to make it that the auras provide "as an example" ability to ignore a % of enemy armor/shields and those benefits are only gained by members of their specific squad.

 

As for aura like infested impendence, all that is needed is to add a simple cap where the effectiveness does not go above traditional 72% when all 8 members who posses the same aura stand together but the effect still apply directly to the enemy.

 

You may think that this would make having entire 8 player team to have same aura pointless, but that would not be true. Because now you have ability to spread out and cover much wider area at greater efficiency in slowing down the enemy if you so require. So yes, there are downsides but also the upsides and might challenge players to think slightly differently when cooperating and coordinating together.

=== === ===

 

There is much more ideas that I can come up with as an example to how one can prevent at least some balancing issues, but this is already becoming far too TL;DR and is also exhausting me aswell.

 

=== === ===

So ahem as TL;DR goes:

 

~ 2 squads consisting of 4 players each, making a team of 8 players.

 

~ Most auras are shared only between members of each squad individually.

 

~ Some direct enemy affecting aura properties to be changed to provide player buff instead. (aka dont reduce enemy armor, give player armor ignore % instead).

 

~ Limit % stack on auras that still affect enemy directly in raid such as Infested impendence.

=== === ===

Edited February 28, 2015 by StarScribe

[Tithus]

Banshee and limbo-easy mode. Everyone uses frames that do something instead of checking on other frames as well. Everyone uses Loki,trin,nova... It's actually pathetic, although the community is full of good players and 1% haters. Oh well...

Edit : and yes, no point in comparing raids with this cuz 2 players did this easily cuz they THEORYCRAFTED. There you will have 8 players, with 3,4 possibilities to have teams that cover every aspect of the raid's complexity.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Tithus

[Kethus]

Skills only really work if your opponents are also humans and/or when they have abilities comparable to yours. You can't make a challenge that depends on player skills with this game's mechanics unless it's PvP.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Kethus

[Habataki]

You uh... you realize that enemies having extreme scaling for this tactical alert was a bug, right? And they turned it into its own thing because people liked it, right?

 

You need to stop taking this stuff so seriously.

 And you need to stop telling him to shut up. The man have his rights to complain about it.

[Maou]

I actually found the TA cool, I managed to learn that a trin can actually outdamage other frames.

[Maou]

 

Why are people so salty about a joke mission that offers a free reward? 

NERVOS . . . . OHHHH MYYYYYYY GOOOOOOOODDD!

[Ghostar]

Did it with 2 Valk and Slow Nova. Valk able to ripline targets off the point, be invincible, Nova to slow them while listening out for gunfire to see if they were un-slowed. What a rush.

 

No Loki Required.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Ghostars

[Davoodoo]

Did it with 2 Valk and Slow Nova. Valk able to ripline targets off the point, be invincible, Nova to slow them while listening out for gunfire to see if they were un-slowed. What a rush.

 

No Loki Required.

This is not about bringing loki, its about complete reliance on hard cc or perma invis/invincibility

 

Loki is just prme example offering both long range perma cc and perma invis.

 

Whether you replace it with vauban, limbo, valkyr, hydroid or whatever means you still need hard cc and options are limited since at least 1 slot in 4player group is reserved.

 

The goal to achieve with raids is to bring player and not his frame

Edited February 28, 2015 by Davoodoo

[_FrostPrime_]

Raiding isn't an original concept. In fact... your role is just as important if not twice as much in a Raid party than in a regular group.

 

EVERY MMO has a Meta. Raids follow the Meta for a reason. You're free to not follow it but I don't really care to know how that works out for you. :P

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

 

Whats wrong with it??

1) got loki??

2) got 4 corrosive proejctions??

3) got fully modded scindo or galantine with viral build??(viral helps alot, not necessary though)

4) got enough energy restores or trin??

5) got some slow nova or vortex vauban

 

If you fulfilled 5 above requirments you can enjoy mindlessly slashing enemies which cant retaliate because if they somehow manage to retaliate, you are dead.

 

Lmao this is so wrong. I finished it without any of those things. Just use banshee & limbo. Limbo Banishes you while sound quaking. Then at 100, get banished again and use sonic boom to push enemies out of the map. Easy Peasy.

 

And raids are only level 80 enemies. Nowhere near as hard as the 120+ not even close.

Edited February 28, 2015 by DrOP_

[TheBulitt]

git good

[Meneliki]

Oneshot when out of the cover... Oneshot when you're in the open field... Even if you stay on cover there aren't safe places while capping bases.

The only counterplay is spamming Hard CC and staying stealthed. 

This isn't promoting skillful and smart playing.

 

I think there's generally 2 types of people when an extreme challenge is presented. Type 1 will try a few times, fail miserably, get frustrated and insist that the challenge isn't legitimate. Type 2 will try a few times, fail miserably, take a step back and rethink their tactics to fit the challenge. Type 2 are the people who are wearing the sigils right now.

 

My first reaction to the Alert was surprise - 'holy crap thats hard'. Then, a bit of frustration. But I found a group of regular players and we tried different tactics throughout the night. They all failed until eventually we found one that worked.

 

So that being said, I disagree that this event "isnt promoting skillfull and smart playing". The whole point of putting the enemies that high level (and gimping the players, as well) is to say "brute force isn't gonna work. you need to think your way around this one."

 

If you're getting frustrated, that's normal. Just relax, and come up with a different plan.

 

Good luck!