Kohm And Synoid, Being Over-Nerfed Is Better Than Being Over-Powered

[Crazii59]

I would like to see an actual argument here. Saying that you don't care about its damage output is saying that you don't care about game balance. I've said this so many times already, just because you don't care doesn't mean it wasn't stupidly ridiculous. While it would have been better if the Kohm had simply received a stat nerf instead of having its unique mechanic removed, this iteration is still preferable to what it was.

If you would just take your Internet Argument Goggles off for 30 seconds you'll see that he's upset about the interesting, unique, and fun mechanics being removed from the weapon, not the damage. This is something you mention at the end of your post.

 

His argument is to find some way to roll back the mechanic change, he doesn't care if they have to nerf the damage. Other people have valid opinions, and I happen to agree with him

 

"All of the weapons you listed had under half the DPS of the Synoid Gammacor and a 4th of the Kohm. Invalid argument."

 

Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean it isn't valid. You agree with a nerf of the Kohm and Sycor because they're "murderiffic" but last I checked the weapons he named are head and shoulders above your run-of-the-mill mastery fodder. Makes them seem pretty murderiffic to me.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I think that now, the Synoid fills the same role that the Twin Wraith vipers did, where it provides massive DPS for a very limited time. Are the TWV unusable because of their ammo efficiency? Is the Amprex unusable as well?

 

This is what I mean about people who wouldn't understand a balanced weapon if it clubbed them in a dark alley.

 

The wraith twin vipers are almost never used by the public precisely because for all their tremendous theoretical DPS, their ammo consumption is such that they're nigh-on unusable. Seriously, I've never seen anyone use them outside of leveling them to 30 for mastery.

 

You could have a gun that deals 999,999 DPS, but nobody would use it if it had just one shot.This example isn't that extreme, but we're still talking about a gun that now consumes ammo so quickly that keeping up with it is functionally impossible even with ammo mutation. Maybe primed ammo mutation can make up for it - maybe - but that's 527 rare5 cores and nearly two million credits just to make one gun not suck Hek's big hairy robo-balls.

 

Amprex is usable solely because each highly damaging shot chains to other targets, giving it surprisingly good efficiency for each ammo used.. And even then it needs, what, six forma before it's actually viable endgame?

 

The original kohm had the exact same problem that the new synoid does. Its ammo consumption is such that it's effectively useless. You can kill one room of enemies great, but then you're out of bullets and you're not going to be getting enough to kill the next room unless you spam ammo restores. I haven't used the new-new kohm, but, well, I'm not hearing good things if you catch my drift. On paper the new kohm's DPS is fine. In practice it absolutely isn't.

 

 

 

The Synoid is still a good weapon.

 

Yes, just like the wraith twin vipers are good weapons, right? I see a pair of those in practically every high end mission I do, yup, yup, absolutely.

 

 

 

but the Synoid Gammacor's paper DPS translates perfectly over to the real game, considering that it's hitscan and 100% accurate.

 

When you say things like this it really makes you out to be a charlatan. Anyone who's actually *used* the synoid (or the normal gammacor) knows that it's not hitscan. The beam takes about half a second to extend to full length. It's only hitscan if you keep the beam going and wave it around like a really long lightsaber. And that used up ammo surprisingly quickly even with the ultra-efficient synoid we had before. With the nerfs here, that strategy is now effectively impossible.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

His argument is to find some way to roll back the mechanic change, he doesn't care if they have to nerf the damage. Other people have valid opinions, and I happen to agree with him

 

 

I definitely agree that the loss of the Kohm's unique mechanic was tragic, but I don't think it's worth reverting the nerf to get it back. Ideally, the unique mechanic could be returned without bringing the Kohm all the way back up to its pre-nerf damage output. But, as previously stated, I still think that this nerf is better than no nerf.

 

The wraith twin vipers are almost never used by the public precisely because for all their tremendous theoretical DPS, their ammo consumption is such that they're nigh-on unusable. Seriously, I've never seen anyone use them outside of leveling them to 30 for mastery.

 

In retrospect, I probably should have brought up Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation earlier.

 

With a Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation build, the Synoid Gammacor has 43k burst and 29k sustained. Isn't that still at least decent? That's about the damage output of a Rakta Ballistica or Boltor Prime. The same build on the TWV has 50k burst and 13k sustained. The TWV became somewhat obsolete over time as power creep kept creeping, but now we have a similar option that's still at least decent.

 

When you say things like this it really makes you out to be a charlatan. Anyone who's actually *used* the synoid (or the normal gammacor) knows that it's not hitscan. The beam takes about half a second to extend to full length. It's only hitscan if you keep the beam going and wave it around like a really long lightsaber. And that used up ammo surprisingly quickly even with the ultra-efficient synoid we had before. With the nerfs here, that strategy is now effectively impossible.

 

Yeah, because half a second totally slashes the DPS and makes me a charlatan. I suppose it would mean a damage loss of 21.5k per magazine, but that's 5% of the 430k damage the Synoid deals per magazine with the build provided above.

 

Still, I stand corrected. The in-game DPS is ever so slightly lower than the DPS on paper. Thank you for informing me.

Edited March 21, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[akira_him]

it is always better being overnerfed so we can nerf another weapon asap

"Balance", lol

remember dual vippers? the best dps of all secondary before brakk was out while no one use it?

x5 ammo consume is good, 7.5 is too far

[BluelitHalo]

What's the about punchthrough being gone on the Kohm? Pretty sure I still had punchthrough when I was using the thing, but I'll have to record a video to really get a clearer picture to demonstrate whether or not that claim is true.

On topic: Overnerfing isn't balancing, though.  I was one of the people that advocated for a Synoid nerf, and having its ammo economy straight up nerfed into oblivion wasn't a good idea.  It's far from being a reasonable nerf.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Sonitorum

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

it is always better being overnerfed so we can nerf another weapon asap

"Balance", lol

remember dual vippers? the best dps of all secondary before brakk was out while no one use it?

x5 ammo consume is good, 7.5 is too far

 

What's the about punchthrough being gone on the Kohm? Pretty sure I still had punchthrough when I was using the thing, but I'll have to record a video to really get a clearer picture to demonstrate whether or not that claim is true.

On topic: Overnerfing isn't balancing, though.  I was one of the people that advocated for a Synoid nerf, and having its ammo economy straight up nerfed into oblivion wasn't a good idea.  It's far from being a reasonable nerf.

 

I agree that overnerfing isn't balancing, but how do we define "overnerfing"? I will agree that the Kohm was overnerfed, but as I've already said so, so many times, this nerf is still better than no nerf, because a crappy gun does far less harm than an overpowered one. The Synoid Gammacor's ammo efficiency nerf could actually be looked at as a DPS nerf, because now you basically need to use (Primed) Ammo Mutation. As previously stated, a Synoid with Primed Ammo Mutation has about the same damage output as a Rakta Ballistica or Boltor Prime.

Edited March 21, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[(PSN)Cerata_]

The nerfs haven't hit us console players yet, so I cannot really speak on how painful it is. That being said, my eyebrows immediately raised at how much the fire rate went up, how the damage was altered, and how the mag was decreased. 

 

I regularly play with the Synoid, with a pretty okay setup.  I run with the classic Torrent/Hornet/Diffusion type set up, but they're not maxed. I have no need to, while it doesn't insta-kill everything, I don't really need it to insta-kill everything. I was happy that it was a pretty strong weapon with fantastic ammo economy. But even I recognized that it could use a little toning down. But this just seems to be too much. Lower the range, hell, make the mag tiny so you're constantly reloading, even the fire rate increase is okayish. But just raiding ALL of the good qualities of the weapon is not okay. I am perfectly entitled to be concerned (I can't be angry as I'm not yet effected) that one of my go-to weapons is having it's guts ripped out.

 

It has nothing to do with it being OP. It has everything to do with having a viable toy taken away from me, a toy that wasn't exactly quick for me to get. Now because I don't have it maxed, I won't be getting anything close to the horrible figures people are reporting now. 

 

I totally agree that there shouldn't be a single weapon crazily outperforming everything else in-game, but I vehemently disagree that destroying their viability is anywhere near a reasonable option.

 

You chastise people who are upset for losing their damage if they want to use the weapon. Uh...isn't that also your rationale for the nerfs? Because other weapons paled in comparison? None of it is okay! None of this fixes the problem.  The Boltor is still a really great weapon. Should we nerf that too? What's under that? Phage? Braton Prime? Nerf those too. In fact, let's make everything have the exact same damage value. That's the only way you'd ever truly stop people from flocking to the same weapon.

 

DE needs to work on making fair balancing passes. There should be strong weapons, there should be weaker weapons. There shouldn't be extremes on either side of the spectrum. 

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

The nerfs haven't hit us console players yet, so I cannot really speak on how painful it is. That being said, my eyebrows immediately raised at how much the fire rate went up, how the damage was altered, and how the mag was decreased. 

 

I regularly play with the Synoid, with a pretty okay setup.  I run with the classic Torrent/Hornet/Diffusion type set up, but they're not maxed. I have no need to, while it doesn't insta-kill everything, I don't really need it to insta-kill everything. I was happy that it was a pretty strong weapon with fantastic ammo economy. But even I recognized that it could use a little toning down. But this just seems to be too much. Lower the range, hell, make the mag tiny so you're constantly reloading, even the fire rate increase is okayish. But just raiding ALL of the good qualities of the weapon is not okay. I am perfectly entitled to be concerned (I can't be angry as I'm not yet effected) that one of my go-to weapons is having it's guts ripped out.

 

It has nothing to do with it being OP. It has everything to do with having a viable toy taken away from me, a toy that wasn't exactly quick for me to get. Now because I don't have it maxed, I won't be getting anything close to the horrible figures people are reporting now. 

 

I totally agree that there shouldn't be a single weapon crazily outperforming everything else in-game, but I vehemently disagree that destroying their viability is anywhere near a reasonable option.

 

You chastise people who are upset for losing their damage if they want to use the weapon. Uh...isn't that also your rationale for the nerfs? Because other weapons paled in comparison? None of it is okay! None of this fixes the problem.  The Boltor is still a really great weapon. Should we nerf that too? What's under that? Phage? Braton Prime? Nerf those too. In fact, let's make everything have the exact same damage value. That's the only way you'd ever truly stop people from flocking to the same weapon.

 

DE needs to work on making fair balancing passes. There should be strong weapons, there should be weaker weapons. There shouldn't be extremes on either side of the spectrum. 

 

As previously stated, the Synoid Gammacor's ammo efficiency nerf could actually be looked at as a DPS nerf, because now you basically need to use (Primed) Ammo Mutation. A Synoid with Primed Ammo Mutation has about the same damage output as a Rakta Ballistica or Boltor Prime.

 

Before the nerf, the Boltor Prime could have been considered to have half the DPS of the Synoid. Now, the damage output is about equal. The Synoid needed a nerf while the weapons listed here don't because of the fact that the Synoid had about twice the DPS of all of them, as well as almost no downsides. Your concern that the top tier weapons will keep getting nerfed one after another is definitely valid. I think that the buff/nerf cycle can and will stop when at least one weapon in every category is top tier, with no top tier weapons surpassing any others. I can understand the frustration of having an awesome weapon nerfed, but that doesn't mean a nerf shouldn't have happened.

Edited March 21, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Cpl_Facehugger]

 

In retrospect, I probably should have brought up Primed Pistol Ammo Mutation earlier.

 

No, you really shouldn't have. Because it's a stupid thing to bring up, given how it takes 528 goddamn rare5 cores to max for a mod that's garbage on most other secondaries. Not even the most hardcore grinders have the cores to afford something like that. There's a reason I'm so dismissive of primed ammo mutation.

 

 

 

The TWV became somewhat obsolete over time as power creep kept creeping, but now we have a similar option that's still at least decent.

 

What? Dude, the wraith vipers have been niche lulz guns since the day they were introduced. Again, never have I seen anyone I ever played with carrying them except as mastery fodder. The reason nobody uses them is because even though they have tremendous burst DPS and have always had as such, their ammo efficiency is so low that they're not an attractive choice. They've never been obsoleted due to "power creep." They were released for Cicero. After Gradivus and the coming of the Brakk.

 

Seriously, man, if you're going to talk about "power creep", at least get your facts straight.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, because half a second totally slashes the DPS and makes me a charlatan. I suppose it would mean a damage loss of 21.5k per magazine, but that's 5% of the 430k damage the Synoid deals per magazine with the build provided above.

 

Still, I stand corrected. The in-game DPS is ever so slightly lower than the DPS on paper. Thank you for informing me.

 

You're missing the point entirely. DPS isn't everything. The reason why everyone hates this nerf so much is because the synoid's usability is now pants even though the DPS is theoretically the same. Trying to quantify a highly complex convergence of variables into a DPS number as a decider of balance is a fool's game, and it's why I'm so derisive of our opinion here. I even brought up an example to show why the logic is bogus. You can have a 999,999 DPS gun, but nobody would use it if it only had one shot. There are other factors, important factors, that need to be considered when balancing guns.

 

You sound like a charlatan because you said you actually used the synoid enough to get a feel for how it operates in actual use, rather than relying entirely on theorycrafting. Yet you display a shocking lack of knowledge about how the weapon actually behaves in gameplay.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[(PSN)Cerata_]

Before the nerf, the Boltor Prime could have been considered to have half the DPS of the Synoid. Now, the damage output is about equal. The Synoid needed a nerf while the weapons listed here don't because of the fact that the Synoid had higher DPS than all of them, as well as almost no downsides. I can understand the frustration of having an awesome weapon nerfed, but that doesn't mean a nerf shouldn't have happened.

 

In my post, I said that it needed some toning down. I'm totally okay with Nerfs. But said nerfs have to be reasonable. From what I can tell, the nerf was too much.

 

And the other weapons I listed represent the same problem that you claim to be talking about; They trivialize most other guns. The only difference is that t's them again, and not the Synoid. You've just shifted the problem. And what's worse, now you have one less gun that is viable in high-tier content. Tell me, please, who exactly benefits from an overnerf? just because a slightly weaker weapon for some reason doesn't bother you as much as a slightly stronger weapon, why on earth should anyone consider an iron-fisted nerfing okay?

 

Another thing I feel should be mentioned is that DE changed the MECHANICS of both the Kohm and the Synoid.  DPS isn't my problem here, although really, as others have said, you can't base balance off of numbers you get from WF builder. You can't just change how my gun works completely. Do that, and it's no longer the gun I bought. That's not okay. I don't want to suddenly have to worry about my ammo constantly running out, while also suffering a loss in damage and usability. It's not really justifiable. 

[GhostUnitVII]

@OP: Are you high? these are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT WEAPONS... WITH DIFFERENT DAMAGE TYPES!! Synoid Gammacore deals in magnetic damage, and the only thing that is affected by that with great significance is the Corpus. As for the Boltor Prime, it deals in puncture damage, with the chance to use the flailing body as a weapon as well, knocking down multiple enemies in a row, you also have the advantage of range over the Gammacore's short range beam attack. The only thing you can compaire this thing too is the Gammacore it's self, and that is a standard weapon you can build with blueprints, so it is not an End game weapon.

[shut]

Reducing its damage by 90% was not.

 

I agreed with you right up until this last bit. I'm with you 100% on the necessity of weapon balance, but I'm absolutely reluctant to upvote someone who's arguing on behalf of a weapon that he hasn't even tried post-nerf.

 

The damage was NOT touched. It still does 420 base DPS. Nothing has changed in that regard.

The only difference is that dealing your 420 damage in a second takes 15 ammo instead of 2.

Edited March 21, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Crazii59]

 

The damage was NOT touched. It still does 420 base DPS. Nothing has changed in that regard.

The only difference is that dealing your 420 damage in a second takes 15 ammo instead of 2.

The damage was reduced though. Not the DPS, but the damage, yes.

This is what has hurt the weapon so much.

 

Instead of slapping seeker on it and having an Iron Man 2 - esque laser beam that will cut through a room (which was the best use for the Sycor, imo), doing the same thing will hurt the enemies much less, making it necessary to go back and forth, wasting more and more ammo due to the absolutely crazy rate at which it spits it out.

 

All this weapon is good for now is hosing down a single target or two with its SUPA CRAZY OUTTA CONTROL ON-PAPER WARFRAME BUILDER DPS. And you better have a backup plan after that because now you're probably out of ammo.

[shut]

The damage was reduced though. Not the DPS, but the damage, yes.

This is what has hurt the weapon so much.

 

Instead of slapping seeker on it and having an Iron Man 2 - esque laser beam that will cut through a room (which was the best use for the Sycor, imo), doing the same thing will hurt the enemies much less, making it necessary to go back and forth, wasting more and more ammo due to the absolutely crazy rate at which it spits it out.

 

All this weapon is good for now is hosing down a single target or two with its SUPA CRAZY OUTTA CONTROL ON-PAPER WARFRAME BUILDER DPS. And you better have a backup plan after that because now you're probably out of ammo.

I keep seeing people go on about how the Synoid is literally junk-tier and all that just because it has a base fire rate of 15 per second. That's a massive overreaction. If it were true, Amprex would be a piece of crap that nobody uses because it has an even higher fire rate on top of slightly less common ammo drops and the lack of a Primed Mutation mod.

Just avoid fire rate mods on the Synoid and slap on a Mutation and you should be fine. Will you lose a large chunk of your DPS? Of course. But if you're hell-bent on not using your primary under any circumstances, then it's the best option you have.

And, mind, it's still one hell of a beastly option compared to most other weapons.

[Monolake]

Synoid wasnt even OVER nerfed, it got under-nerfed if anything, it is still the most powerful sdyndicate weapon, just not by such a huge margin any more.

 

I cant comment on Khom because the weapon performance is shaky

Edited March 21, 2015 by Monolake

[f3llyn]

Synoid wasnt even OVER nerfed, it got under-nerfed if anything, it is still the most powerful sdyndicate weapon, just not by such a huge margin any more.

 

I cant comment on Khom because the weapon performance is shaky

 

Uhm yeah....no.

[fatpig84]

Actually I agreed with the Synoid getting a damage drop and a bump in ROF.

But DE went a bit too far with this one.

 

I would have being perfectly happy if it had a base ROF of 8 to 10 and damage lowered to match.

But now it is a tad too much ROF.

Edited March 21, 2015 by fatpig84

[Tyrian3k]

First of all, the pre U16 Kohm had ~60k dps with a reasonable build including a maxed Primed Point Blank that not everyone has at their disposal.

A nerf to damage would have been okay for players with Primed Point Blank, not so much for those without it. The question is: Which mod do you want to balance the Kohm to? The normal one that everyone has or the Primed one that only a fraction of players have?

Applying hitscan and damage falloff completely changes the playstyle of the weapon and that's the reason why I don't like the change one bit since it was a nerf in versatility instead of a nerf in damage whereas damage was the thing that made the Kohm OP.

Now it's barely more than a Boar Prime with spool-up.

You say every category should have a top tier weapon? Well, DE just killed the only top tier shotgun with the same method that kills about all shotguns. Phage is a beam weapon, not a shotgun, just for the record.

[iuki.]

Why am I a bit upset?

 

1) They let synoid gram be OP for 4 months so most us assumed it must be ok to 4+ forma it. How can you let some thing so obviously OP remain like that so long anyways? Milk those plat sales for the win?

2) Boltor Prime, period; best weapon in game hands down and can be used by super low mastery yet untouched. Someone explain why not pls.

3) The regular gram is BETTER than the upgrade version now. Okie dokie! Nerf to reg gam soon .

4) SG went from top to middle tier just like that, boom. There seems to be zero middle ground with balancing here...instead of fine tuning, they smash it to bits.

 

Yes, SG was OP and most certainly need adjustments but making it total garbage instead of some tweaks? :(

 

I have to blow 80+ plat and days on end of grinding just to replace a now worthless weapon; well played DE, well played.

Edited March 21, 2015 by fizbit

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Thread OP actually shows the whole true colors of the "Balance" crusaders. I have been saying all the time, its not about balance, its about ruining a weapon.

 

Thank you OP for proving me right. Because of the logic of that guy. more of the trash is better than a few good weapons.

 

Hey OP, campaign to ruin the rest of the good weapons so that you can salivate on your achievements.

 

You then can play then game solo.

Edited March 21, 2015 by HandsomeSorcerer

[[DE]Momaw]

Just for the record, I was in favor of a MINOR nerf to the Synoid Gammacor.  I wanted to see it change from 210@2 damage to 90@4 damage.   15% less DPS and half the ammo economy. Then watch the usage stats, and if it wasn't enough for people to feel like other guns were worth looking at, keeping working from there. Maybe 70@5. Small changes. :(

[Siekier]

Kohm was overpowered? 

Ha-ha-ha

 

It was a good, balanced weapon. More importantly, it was one of the most fun to use. This nerf took it all away.

 

So tell me OP, how is it better to have a boring weapon with its signature traits removed than having a good, balanced and fun to use weapon?

[XAN3MK]

Did the SG need nerf/rebalancing? Obviously, it was way too efficient for the damage it was dealing, however, the solution and the way it was handled was poorly executed, at best. I like the SG for its reliability more so than anything else, its ammo efficiency was something you could always count on. Personally, I'd prefer if they just shaved off ~30% of its base damage to bring it more in line with the rest of the Syndicate weapons, instead of going after its ammo economy. On the other hand, if the economy had to be addressed, the nerf was overdone, to the point of borderline bricking the weapon. 2x-3x would have been acceptable, 7.5x is pushing it way too far.

 

This was an issue that required a laser-like precission when handled - what we got was a sledgehammer solution, something that is becoming a common atribute for DE and I'm not too pleased with it.

[Zetaikenshi]

Personally, I rarely used the Synoid Gammacor to carve down hordes of enemies, I just used it on occasion for it's decent Entropy effect (Energy Glutton) and to carve down void bombards because I don't appreciate being down by homing rockets.

[Makavelis]

They should cal this game Nerframe.

DE hasnt changed a bit. A comunity of little annoying kids who cant stand other people getting more kills then they do, start crying about OP and a perfect endgame weapon gets totally demolished (not the first time). Not keeping in mind that players have spend their time and money in to a gun or frame. DE just says screw your potatoes and screw your formas. Because SG is nothing like it was. Its a totally diffrent gun. If a nerf really had to be done they could have at least spent some time on it. To ensure players dont get smacked in the face when they login and find their favorite gun totally destroyed. 

To the people who are so glad that the SG got nerfed..... Be afraid cause your favorite weapon or frame is next. Cant wait till these players get screwed over like the SG players. Cant wait til brakk, boltor prime, soma prime and all of these powerfull weapons get nerfed till destruction. Cant wait till saryn gets here butt nerfed till theres nothing left of her. Because thats how DE works.

And besides that. How can DE nerf 1 weapon. While there is so much balancing to do on all the other weapons. Synoid gammacore is not the only so called OP weapon. How can DE continously make the same mistakes over and over again. Smacking tons of players right in their faces. Ive lost so many formas and potatoes. Cant even calculate the time and money spend on all that crap. Because of all these these freaking nerfs. Ive been playing a long time. And i have stopped playing because of this problem. I came back and find the SG, i loved it. And then again they screwed me over. Not to mention the excalibur nerf. Another reason for me to stop playing again. I realy hoped they have changed. 

DE is going to lose a lot of players if they continue like this, And it will sure as hell not help their platinum sales. I mean come on. Why whould anyone forma or potato any frame or weapon again ? Knowing that DE can and probably wil also ruin it. And al that to keep a game "balanced"?

Spend some freaking more time and realise nerfing is not the only option. Im starting to regret every minute and euro ive spend on this game. All my favorite stuff has been destroyed because of the freaking kiddy OP community. And it has been like that since ive started playing warframe. Way to go DE !! Believe me im not the only one whe is totally fed up with these incompetent developers. 

Again. to the people who like the synoid gammacore nerf. Just wait till your gear gets destroyed. Just wait till some nerf effects you. Cant wait to see you al crying in the forums. Cause im sure these kids will.  

BTW..... Its not stil a good secondairy. Try to reach wave 40 t4 defence and tell me if the SG is a good gun. Tell me if it still feals like the SG your used to. If i freakin wanted a ammo sucking ***** as gun i whould have used my dex furis or twin wraith viper and i whould have never slapped a potato and formas on the SG. 

I had it with this game and had it with the kiddys screwing everything up.