Greed's Never Good

[087SE-Miykhail]

 Mag Greedy Pull was make for utility, making mag actually usable. Shes close to trash and was forgoten for more them years before she back in the use, just like trinity after nerfs.

Well, camping was always an option, because running all over the map makes enemies respawn not work well and things like that.

I agree it need some physics changes. Lots of times it just bugs, dont pull anything or make pickups "unpickable"

 

Lets see how far this can go.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

So why is this necessary? So I can wait longer to get items then for enemies to come flying at my head?

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

I believe firmly in the drop system.

 

You lost me here!

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

I know that, on paper, Greedy Mag is meant to pull pickups to herself, or to her team to be helpful in a pinch. It's meant to allow her to pick up an Energy orb or Life Support pack from across the room when she couldn't safely run there. And I know that some people play her exactly this way, and that's great.

 

First you need to GET greedy pull. A syndicate mod.Second it doesn't make you do anything. You can pickup stuff or run through the mags pile to re-equipped. You do not have to camp. As if camping is a issue in most mission objectives anyway.

[Hypernaut1]

Does it really make your life all that difficult to get pickups from a pile? I mean seriously?

[YagoXiten]

 Mag Greedy Pull was make for utility, making mag actually usable. Shes close to trash and was forgoten for more them years before she back in the use, just like trinity after nerfs.

Well, camping was always an option, because running all over the map makes enemies respawn not work well and things like that.

I agree it need some physics changes. Lots of times it just bugs, dont pull anything or make pickups "unpickable"

 

Lets see how far this can go.

Mag's always been pretty good, since well before Greedy Pull. She's just never been in the meta because she's never been gamebreakingly overpowered like the majority of the meta cast.

My issue is not with her camping--it is with her essentially forcing the rest of her team to camp if she chooses to.

 

So why is this necessary? So I can wait longer to get items then for enemies to come flying at my head?

Even with a slight travel time, it's still significantly faster and longer range than getting them by walking over them, and you can duck out from behind cover to cast it, and then retreat. Honestly, the travel time for pulled pickups is not the core of my suggestion, it's just to make it feel a lot smoother than the weird instant teleportation.

The point of the changes is to prevent Mag from messing with the loot locations for anyone but herself and allies who are standing close to her. This prevents her play-style, whatever that may be (typically camping), from impeding everyone else.

 

You lost me here!

It was a response to someone else, who believes that pickups are poorly designed to begin with.

 

First you need to GET greedy pull. A syndicate mod.Second it doesn't make you do anything. You can pickup stuff or run through the mags pile to re-equipped. You do not have to camp. As if camping is a issue in most mission objectives anyway.

Syndicate mods are by no means exceptionally hard to acquire anymore. It takes a few weeks to get there at first, but the people who have had them since the Syndicates first came out have had ample time to purchase them and duplicates, and they don't sell for all that much platinum.

Furthermore, the difficulty of acquiring a mod should not mean that Mag has the capability to ruin her teammates experience by running it.

A Greedy Mag doesn't necessarily force you to camp, no. But a Greedy Mag who is camping will twist your arm into doing the same even if you don't want to.

It is extremely difficult to play without adapting to her tent pitching strategy when she pulls the loot that everyone else in the party needs to herself with virtually no cost. Since Mag is not moving, and you have to stay close to her or be unable to loot effectively, it just becomes strongly incentivized to not move.

Honestly, even if Mag does decide to move around, she'll often drag her stash of loot with her, thus even when not done to be intentionally harmful, it turns Warframe into 'Where's Waldo?' as you try to find wherever it is that Mag has placed the loot you need and have worked for. Not to mention the rampant Pull spamming ragdolls enemies to often hilariously unpredictable locations, which makes it rather hard to shoot at them or to attempt to melee them.

It just becomes easier to give in and start roasting marshmallows than fight your Greedy Mag 'team'mate.

And that's the core problem.

 

 

 

Does it really make your life all that difficult to get pickups from a pile? I mean seriously?

If it's not that difficult to pick up loot, then why run Greedy Mag at all?

It matters. Significantly. When I play Nekros, staying close to my Shadows and using Desecrate to create a carpet of Health Orbs is how I survive on high level content. Mag yanks them away from me and puts them in a pile somewhere, and I have to adapt to this or die.

When I am on any other Warframe and want to collect Energy or ammo, or credits, or mods, I don't like having to find a specific member of my team to ask them if I may please loot now. I also don't like how this often turns into standing safely behind cover on a pancake whilst I wait for Extraction because fighting Greedy Mag is more difficult than most enemies.

Edited April 26, 2015 by YagoXiten

[Hypernaut1]

You're definitely being over-dramatic. It's not like Mag scatters all drops to random places. It's pulled to one spot. In defense is usually the pod, in survival it's usually not too far from where you are in the same room. You're either running towards a bunch of scattered drops or a pile of drops. I fail to see how this is such a great inconvenience. You're scrambling in both scenarios.

I don't buy the whole "I need a bed of orbs or I can't function" excuse.

I will agree that I hate camping. I leave a group that wants to camp. This isn't a Mag issue though, is a player base issue.

[Crewell]

I don't mind the mechanics of Greedy Pull as much as how it seems like players just spam the crap out of it making the mission much more difficult for everyone else.

That being said I wouldn't mind seeing the augment changed so that if you use Greedy Pull it no longer affects enemies. It will only affect object. That way a player has to make a choice.

[inappropriatename5818]

Why complicate things if they don't need to be complicated? 

[YagoXiten]

You're definitely being over-dramatic. It's not like Mag scatters all drops to random places. It's pulled to one spot. In defense is usually the pod, in survival it's usually not too far from where you are in the same room. You're either running towards a bunch of scattered drops or a pile of drops. I fail to see how this is such a great inconvenience. You're scrambling in both scenarios.

I don't buy the whole "I need a bed of orbs or I can't function" excuse.

I will agree that I hate camping. I leave a group that wants to camp. This isn't a Mag issue though, is a player base issue.

Yes, and that one spot is wherever Mag decides it should be. There's no reason that she should be able to decide where I am required to collect the loot that I've worked for on a whim. And the fact that she can is a problem. It significantly affects the game-play of everyone else in the group, and it has no reason to. I have listed very reasonable changes to the augment in the OP that enables her to use Greedy Pull to help her team, or to camp, without invalidating either play-style or the her teammates who do not want a Greedy Mag in the group. Either refute my argument, or refine the suggestion, but please do not pretend that Greedy Mag is perfectly fine as is and ignore everything I've said in this thread.

 

I don't mind the mechanics of Greedy Pull as much as how it seems like players just spam the crap out of it making the mission much more difficult for everyone else.

That being said I wouldn't mind seeing the augment changed so that if you use Greedy Pull it no longer affects enemies. It will only affect object. That way a player has to make a choice.

That's the core complaint with this. The mechanics of the augment is what make it so difficult for everyone else, so I offered ideas to change it so that it is no longer a detriment to those not playing Mag.

 

 

Why complicate things if they don't need to be complicated? 

Because they need changed. The way Greedy Pull currently works is obnoxious for those who do not want a Greedy Mag in the party, and enables a play-style which, though some find enjoyable, causes a plethora of balance issues and trivializes content.

Edited April 26, 2015 by YagoXiten

[vindcare]

Yes, and that one spot is wherever Mag decides it should be. There's no reason that she should be able to decide where I am required to collect the loot that I've worked for on a whim. And the fact that she can is a problem. It significantly affects the game-play of everyone else in the group, and it has no reason to. I have listed very reasonable changes to the augment in the OP that enables her to use Greedy Pull to help her team, or to camp, without invalidating either play-style or the her teammates who do not want a Greedy Mag in the group. Either refute my argument, or refine the suggestion, but please do not pretend that Greedy Mag is perfectly fine as is and ignore everything I've said in this thread.

 

That's the core complaint with this. The mechanics of the augment is what make it so difficult for everyone else, so I offered ideas to change it so that it is no longer a detriment to those not playing Mag.

 

 

Because they need changed. The way Greedy Pull currently works is obnoxious for those who do not want a Greedy Mag in the party, and enables a play-style which, though some find enjoyable, causes a plethora of balance issues and trivializes content.

Greedy pull does NOT enforce camping. Sure it makes it easier and people tend to do what's easier but at no point you are bound to 1 place.

And let's get real, you don't need those pickups every 5 mins or so. Once you max everything you can go on your little voyage and come back once you're missing something. Pull has a range, a fairly big one but not limitless. Don't like it? Move away. I can only think of 1 frame-build that would be better off adapting to the Mag.

Mag decides where the loot goes, yes. A good team player makes that place as convenient as he can for everyone.

Once you hit that Play button while it says public you should know that people have their playstyles which may conflict yours.

Playstyle is like a d*ck, it's fine to have one, but FFS don't shove it down other peoples throat.

Obnoxious how? Before Greedy Pull you had to play like this and it was fine. You want the cake then take it ffs!

 

Regarding the video: Oh boi! 3 prolly fully moded lvl 30 frames on a T1S. What would happen on a long t4s? Mag gets 1 shot by a nullifier and everything goes to the S#&$ter.

Greedy Pull take a bit of farming out of Warframe and I'm okay with it being the way it is now.

[tris1]

No thanks it's fine the way it is.

Logically how would you say it only effects those items when only needed , it doesn't make sense

It would be worth less as a mod

Your trying to balance one mod but that's not the problem the problem is that the whole of war frame is not balanced and by limiting the mod it's band aiding even more in the gsme

[inappropriatename5818]

 

 

Because they need changed. The way Greedy Pull currently works is obnoxious for those who do not want a Greedy Mag in the party, and enables a play-style which, though some find enjoyable, causes a plethora of balance issues and trivializes content.

 

 

Honest question. Who doesn't want a greedy mag in the party? Why would you run around after every wave collecting mods if you can have them nicely piled up next to the cryopod.   

 

I Even in other types of missions, the only people I see getting mad over greedy mag are the hallway heroes because she pulls the loot to her team and they have to stop hallway heroing to come get it.    

 

Other than that I don't see any reason why Greedy Mag would be bad.

[087SE-Miykhail]

Mag's always been pretty good, since well before Greedy Pull. She's just never been in the meta because she's never been gamebreakingly overpowered like the majority of the meta cast.

My issue is not with her camping--it is with her essentially forcing the rest of her team to camp if she chooses to.

 

 

 Hmmm, think about this: Ok lets remove greed pull. People will stop camping? No. Why? Because they can still Loki+Vauban+Speed Nova on any survival mission, camping in a corner, killing them easy and having to only walk a few meters to grab the vortex loot, them walk back to position.

They will always find ways to camp, mag greed pull actually gives some diversity to the camping thing, while you dont need to be exactly vauban speed nova and loki, making it works on other frames and helping other players to farm.

If players are camping way too much, well thats the easy and noob way they find to have fun, if you dont like it at least you can do a team of friends and play missions on hack/slash mode.

And making mag pull everything, actually is a good downside, if you only spended like 5 energy, you will waste a energy orb, meaning you will not stay still in front of mag all time, or it will be inefficient, making players actually walk a little more. Thats what i think.

Sidenote: Players are happy on greed pull mag, you know why? because nekros can be used now at least.

Edited April 26, 2015 by 087SE-Miykhail

[YagoXiten]

No thanks it's fine the way it is.

Logically how would you say it only effects those items when only needed , it doesn't make sense

It would be worth less as a mod

Your trying to balance one mod but that's not the problem the problem is that the whole of war frame is not balanced and by limiting the mod it's band aiding even more in the gsme

We play a game with space ninjas who can travel between dimensions, teleport, manipulate anti-matter, and much more. The gameplay is significantly more important than tangible logic, and it's not anymore illogical that Mag pulls only what is needed than that she only pulls her enemies.

 

The augment is the band-aid. It's a 'fix' to the excessive RNG and loot table inflation because it enables people to use cheesy tactics to guarantee success and longer endless missions. Balance is fixed one step at a time, and the sooner that the cheap camping tactics and overpowered Warframe abilities get fixed, the sooner exponential enemy scaling and layered RNG can be fixed to make the game actually challenging.

But, that's neither here nor there. My core complaint with Greedy Pull is that it encourages allies to play that way, even if they don't want to. I don't care if camping is good, or bad--my concern is that Mag's ability to decide which the team does just by virtue of being in the party is bad.

 

Honest question. Who doesn't want a greedy mag in the party? Why would you run around after every wave collecting mods if you can have them nicely piled up next to the cryopod.   

 

I Even in other types of missions, the only people I see getting mad over greedy mag are the hallway heroes because she pulls the loot to her team and they have to stop hallway heroing to come get it.    

 

Other than that I don't see any reason why Greedy Mag would be bad.

Because it's fun to run around and pick up loot between waves. Because the locations of pickups have certain gameplay implications for frames like Nekros, and for high ammo consumption weapons like the Amprex. A lot of the strategy and tactics you are used to and enjoy using get yanked out from under you and placed at Mag's control because she joined the party. If you don't mind her pulling them, that's great. But some people do, and there's no reason that we can't let the player's decide if they want that or not.

Interception missions, especially, highlight the issues with Greedy Pull. Mag will often take pickups, and enemies for that matter, from another radio tower to her, which requires that I go over to her to collect the loot and kill the opponents, except I am supposed to be defending a particular point, and in the meantime, some MOA hacks the console and takes it over. It doesn't just become a mild annoyance, it actually becomes a detriment to the team, unless we decide to cheese the spawn mechanics like Mag is typically trying to do. The result is that the entire team gets roped into camping because Mag wants to.

This can be an issue in some of the larger Void rooms in Survivals, as well. Mag pulls loot I am in need of to herself rather far away, and I have to largely stop fighting the crowd of enemies I have been dealing with to go collect ammo that would have been right there if not for Mag.

 

 Hmmm, think about this: Ok lets remove greed pull. People will stop camping? No. Why? Because they can still Loki+Vauban+Speed Nova on any survival mission, camping in a corner, killing them easy and having to only walk a few meters to grab the vortex loot, them walk back to position.

They will always find ways to camp, mag greed pull actually gives some diversity to the camping thing, while you dont need to be exactly vauban speed nova and loki, making it works on other frames and helping other players to farm.

If players are camping way too much, well thats the easy and noob way they find to have fun, if you dont like it at least you can do a team of friends and play missions on hack/slash mode.

And making mag pull everything, actually is a good downside, if you only spended like 5 energy, you will waste a energy orb, meaning you will not stay still in front of mag all time, or it will be inefficient, making players actually walk a little more. Thats what i think.

Sidenote: Players are happy on greed pull mag, you know why? because nekros can be used now at least.

I've already said, the changes I've suggested are not intended to remove or affect camping as a group strategy. That is not my main concern. Do I think camping needs changed? Yes. Do I think it is unfun and removes difficulty? Yes.

But I already know that changing Greedy Mag will not fix that issue. It is a much broader scope.

However, changing Greedy Pull so that Mag cannot hijack the loot from her team as she sees fit will definitely make her less of a selfish frame to play with. That is the main issue I am addressing here.

All that my suggestion really changes is that each player gets to choose if they want Mag to pull their loot or not, rather than have it forcibly brought to her.

And Nekros has been plenty playable since before Greedy Mag was even a thing.

[PsiWarp]

I'd prefer the augment pulled items in sight, like Pull does to enemies in sight. If Mag is not looking my way then I can do my little scavenging trips after mopping up a group of enemies. If she wants to pull every item to one spot, make her work for it and not park her magnetized behind somewhere breaking her 1 key.

[ThePresident777]

Dead Body Loot keeps players moving.  Space Ninja -->  Movement, so Dead Body Loot fits the game.  The problem is DE advertising one thing then favoring another and no mechanism for the players to easily choose Space Ninja or Space Camper without interfering with each other.  Space Ninja and Space Camper are opposites.  They don't belong in a coop game without a coop mechanism to stop them from clashing.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

Dead Body Loot keeps players moving.  Space Ninja -->  Movement, so Dead Body Loot fits the game.  The problem is DE advertising one thing then favoring another and no mechanism for the players to easily choose Space Ninja or Space Camper without interfering with each other.  Space Ninja and Space Camper are opposites.  They don't belong in a coop game without a coop mechanism to stop them from clashing.

 

Well I guess I'm a Space Niamper then!!

 

Or Campinja... or something.

 

I like space.

[fatpig84]

People have being camping long before greedy pull came.

It will be no different.

[YagoXiten]

Dead Body Loot keeps players moving.  Space Ninja -->  Movement, so Dead Body Loot fits the game.  The problem is DE advertising one thing then favoring another and no mechanism for the players to easily choose Space Ninja or Space Camper without interfering with each other.  Space Ninja and Space Camper are opposites.  They don't belong in a coop game without a coop mechanism to stop them from clashing.

 

Agreed. And Greedy Pull makes that clashing a lot worse, because Mag decides whether you camp or not. You can still play space ninja if someone is playing camper Ted, but it's a lot harder and vastly less effective.

People have being camping long before greedy pull came.

It will be no different.

I understand this, however, I do not understand why Mag should have such power over the other members of the group. If she wants to camp, that is fine. But other players may not want to, and should not have their arm twisted into doing it.

[Kayblis]

You do realize that mag had absolutely NO use in any squad before greedy mag right? Might as well ask DE to remove her from the game entirely

Edited April 28, 2015 by Kayblis

[YagoXiten]

You do realize that mag had absolutely NO use in any squad before greedy mag right? Might as well ask DE to remove her from the game entirely

Pretty certain Mag's Shield Polarize has always dominated against shields, and is a pretty powerful defensive ability for her squad, Pull is a powerful CC ability, and Bullet Attractor is rather situational but somewhat useful ability, right? (Certainly more than some frames.) I'm not saying she was top-tier, or denying that Crush is awful...

But she was never useless, and won't be even if we removed Greedy Pull entirely. All I'm asking for is that she doesn't pull projectiles through walls and for the clients that are not near her. She can still pull loot to you, she'd just have to run near you to use it, or you'd have to run to her. That's extremely basic team strategy that takes no more effort than 'move near Frost' does to receive the benefits of Snow Globe.

Even if Mag were going to be considered unviable after these changes, that doesn't mean that she should have such a poorly designed augment. If anything, having a poorly designed ability is more reason to change it, so that she can be more appropriately balanced after some more tweaks.

[CedarDpg]

They could change Greedy Pull so Mag "magnetizes" herself and her teammates and each player's personal drops collect at their feet wherever they may be if they're in range of her Greedy Pull skill.

[YagoXiten]

They could change Greedy Pull so Mag "magnetizes" herself and her teammates and each player's personal drops collect at their feet wherever they may be if they're in range of her Greedy Pull skill.

That's a pretty good idea as well. The jist of what I am trying to change is that she moves the loot in ways that other players may not like.

[DSpite]

You do realize that mag had absolutely NO use in any squad before greedy mag right? Might as well ask DE to remove her from the game entirely

 

Really? Because I was under the impression that she can kill <infinite Level> Corpus units and SOURROUNDING units with Shield Polarize.