[Real Life Archer Thoughts]I Take Issue With The Daikyus (And All Bows) Charge Time.

[Gahrzerkire]

Seriously what the heck. I have never in my entire life shot a bow that took that long to bleeding draw.

Sure with mods one arrow a second and 1/6th is okay. But thats pathetic for a warframe. I am sorry I shoot faster then that when i am using my long bow at home that has a 75 pound draw weight. And the funny thing about drawing a bow is that you draw it as you raise your bow which takes about 1/3 of a second and then its fully drawn and ready to fire. What takes a long time (when setting your arrow on the left side of the bow opposed to the right as we should but sadly dont (for righties)) is setting your F#$%in arrow. 

So if your going to have the tenno drawing their bows slowly and pathetically i will cringe with every shot. The Tenno cannot claim to be the masters of bows in any, way, shape or form if in a fight they draw the damn thing like its a ceremony and take all the time in the world. The fastest part of firing a bow is the draw. And if the bow is really heavy THEN YOU CANT DRAW THE BOW. THE HEAVIER THE BOW THE FASTER YOU DRAW AND FIRE BECAUSE YOU CANT HOLD THE SUCKER UP FOR THAT BLEEDIN LONG.

The raise draw and aim then release are one smooth motion. (Unless your learning and then the raise and draw are one motion. the aim is a puase and the fire occurs when you are ready) 

Sorry for the rage. I am tired of archery being miss-represented by those who have 0 experience when it comes to bows and arrows.

 

Edited May 12, 2015 by Olivionic_Gearhart

[(PSN)deathfrombelow5]

Its probably more of an issue with weapon balance then anything. 

[Hrodgrim]

Hey now, I fire my arrows from the right side of my bow. It's quicker that way, plus you can just hold the arrow with your thumb.

I agree with the draw speed thing though. And one other glaring issue with Bows. YOU CAN'T SWITCH HANDS WHILE THE BOW IS DRAWN!

Edited May 12, 2015 by Reefermun

[-Mr.Meeseeks-]

Can't have the best damage in the game AND good rate of fire. Game balancing man.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

I have several friends who also practice archery. Not once have I seen them draw the bow like in WF. It's unrealistic to do so anyways. DE is renowned for researching things like weapons and cultural references and it is well known that necessary corrections are made if this is misrepresented (like when Sadwyrm and I asked to have the nimana sheath blade up). I hope DE notices this. Factual accuracy is not necessary, but technique is paramount.

As a player, decreased reload speed and improved fire rate sounds better anyway in terms of gameplay. Interrupted shots suck.

Edit: Maybe a zoom nerf, just to make the bow have a more accurate aiming time?

Edited May 12, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[xRufus7x]

As a gamer I take issue with you not being able to tell the difference between a game mechanic and real life.

 

Did you for instance know that holding two axes in your hands and then sliding on the ground while flailing them around will not indeed result in you flinging yourself forward at a pretty crazy rate.

 

Falloff damage certainly not exist at the range DE presents it.

The spread on many of these shotguns is more comparable to a blunderbuss than a modern shotgun. I'm looking at you Boar

 

Arrows travel faster in real life than they do in the game.

 

Nonhitscan weapons are in actuality extremely unpractical. Welcome to the future where bullets slowly float through the air because "science".

 

Archwing missions should in fact be silent.

Edited May 12, 2015 by xRufus7x

[Ventura_Highway]

Tenno skip arm day.

 

The future is strange.

[NyxOOX]

Balance trumps realism.

 

It's unfortunate but that's just how it has to be.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

As a gamer I take issue with you not being able to tell the difference between a game mechanic and real life.

Game mechanics are entirely different from animations. To portray a weapon inaccurately is disrespectful to the weapon, to the art of its use, and to the practitioner. Personally, as a practitioner familiar with the katana, I almost revere my weapon. It can save your life or take it. Much of it is ceremonial, some of it is cultural. But there's no denying that weapons demand respect.

Having the weapon you practice with and choose and connect with on a personal level misrepresented is fine, but only if you approach and they are willing to fix it. But when it is brushed off as 'mechanics' or 'already done', then it is gross disrespect of those who put time and effort into learning the use of the weapon, and the decades they will or may have already taken for mastery. I would not see DE the way I do if they had not changed the katana to face blade up, which has cultural and practical importance.

As a gamer, I take issue with your ability to accept inaccuracy and oversight as 'mechanics'. As a weapons user, I take issue with your inability to respect a deadly weapon that takes skill to master. As a forum user, I take issue with your accusatory and personal tone. As a person who has gone through the effort to make this change happen, it may mean nothing to you, but means a lot to others. Don't disrespect that.

Edit: As for how it could be changed, consider reload speed and animation, which DO exist in the game, and could be modified as a counter to fire rate increases.

Edited May 12, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[DSpite]

Seriously what the heck. I have never in my entire life shot a bow that took that long to bleeding draw.

Sure with mods one arrow a second and 1/6th is okay. But thats pathetic for a warframe. I am sorry I shoot faster then that when i am using my long bow at home that has a 75 pound draw weight. And the funny thing about drawing a bow is that you draw it as you raise your bow which takes about 1/3 of a second and then its fully drawn and ready to fire. What takes a long time (when setting your arrow on the left side of the bow opposed to the right as we should but sadly dont (for righties)) is setting your F#$%in arrow. 

So if your going to have the tenno drawing their bows slowly and pathetically i will cringe with every shot. The Tenno cannot claim to be the masters of bows in any, way, shape or form if in a fight they draw the damn thing like its a ceremony and take all the time in the world. The fastest part of firing a bow is the draw. And if the bow is really heavy THEN YOU CANT DRAW THE BOW. THE HEAVIER THE BOW THE FASTER YOU DRAW AND FIRE BECAUSE YOU CANT HOLD THE SUCKER UP FOR THAT BLEEDIN LONG.

The raise draw and aim then release are one smooth motion. (Unless your learning and then the raise and draw are one motion. the aim is a puase and the fire occurs when you are ready) 

Sorry for the rage. I am tired of archery being miss-represented by those who have 0 experience when it comes to bows and arrows.

 

 

Yes, I'm also sure that arrows from your bow hit exactly the same spot every single time, are able to puncture through 6 inches of armor, destroy energy shields, and explode.

 

I'm tired of real life analogies being used to try and justify mechanics for game balance by those that have 0 experience in running a computer game company.

 

I do clay pigeon and skeet shooting. You don't see me harping on about shotguns being "unrealistic" in a game. It's a game. Everything is "unrealistic".

 

It's been out ONE DAY. A bit soon to take out pitchforks, don't you think? How about we wait and see people actually giving feedback when they mod it properly.

Edited May 12, 2015 by DSpite

[Noble_Cactus]

Can't have the best damage in the game AND good rate of fire. Game balancing man.

Considering the fact that you have to lead targets with every shot in this game, I'd say a fast draw time and ludicrous damage are fair trade-offs to using a weapon that requires more skill than your average Soma. Especially since you'll still only be killing two to three enemies at most every few seconds.

[taiiat]

I have never in my entire life shot a bow that took that long to bleeding draw.

you've also never used one of these Sci-Fi made up Bows that Warframe has.

 

Bows in Warframe have Magnetic Propulsion systems.

i think i'm going to imagine these things are 900lbs+ draw and 2000lbs+ launch.

 

the Bows in Warframe are definitely a bit odd compared to existing ones. but then, we don't have Bows that are... like a differently shaped Rail Driver, either.

 

 

Edit:

 

Arrows travel faster in real life than they do in the game.

 

Nonhitscan weapons are in actuality extremely unpractical. Welcome to the future where bullets slowly float through the air because "science".

 

Archwing missions should in fact be silent.

not much faster. a Compound Bow usually hits 100m/s, and in Warframe, they hit 85m/s. close enough.

 

 

don't you mean that in reality there's no such thing as HitScan Weapons? even Lasers have a travel speed.

so things that move through the air are practical because... that's all that exists. there's no such thing as instant.

besides, the continuum of momentum states that a slow moving projectile, while less efficient generally than a faster moving one, can still provide a lot of impact force provided it's mass is significantly greater than the faster projectile.

 

which is why there's such a wide diversity in Gunpowder based munitions. we have pinprick Sabot's that fly at extreme velocities but do not cause a whole lot of Damage, and larger Caliber projectiles which travel not quite as fast, but bring a lot more force with them.

and more examples - a Deer Slug goes a lot slower than a 7.62x51 projectile, but the Deer Slug carries many, many times more force with it.

 

 

contrary to what most of the Internet and therefore many children think - Space is not silent. there is actually a lot of sound out there, just not really audible to Humans due to low air pressure and the fact that your head would explode if you tried to listen to it with your own ear anyways.

Edited May 12, 2015 by taiiat

[Ishki88]

I think if they increase ROF and Crit Chance, nobody would cry.  This isn't a weapon that can clear hordes of enemies like every other weapon that gets nerf'd.

 

Edit:  Also the people who keep bringing up it's Punc damage...clearly don't understand the game yet

Edited May 12, 2015 by Ishki88

[Otaiken]

 

you've also never used one of these Sci-Fi made up Bows that Warframe has.

 

Bows in Warframe have Magnetic Propulsion systems.

i think i'm going to imagine these things are 900lbs+ draw and 2000lbs+ launch.

 

the Bows in Warframe are definitely a bit odd compared to existing ones. but then, we don't have Bows that are... like a differently shaped Rail Driver, either.

 

 

Edit:

 

not much faster. a Compound Bow usually hits 100m/s, and in Warframe, they hit 85m/s. close enough.

 

 

don't you mean that in reality there's no such thing as HitScan Weapons? even Lasers have a travel speed.

so things that move through the air are practical because... that's all that exists. there's no such thing as instant.

besides, the continuum of momentum states that a slow moving projectile, while less efficient generally than a faster moving one, can still provide a lot of impact force provided it's mass is significantly greater than the faster projectile.

 

which is why there's such a wide diversity in Gunpowder based munitions. we have pinprick Sabot's that fly at extreme velocities but do not cause a whole lot of Damage, and larger Caliber projectiles which travel not quite as fast, but bring a lot more force with them.

and more examples - a Deer Slug goes a lot slower than a 7.62x51 projectile, but the Deer Slug carries many, many times more force with it.

 

 

contrary to what most of the Internet and therefore many children think - Space is not silent. there is actually a lot of sound out there, just not really audible to Humans due to low air pressure and the fact that your head would explode if you tried to listen to it with your own ear anyways.

 

 

With that draw weight the arrows would go supersonic. The speed of arrows in this game is way below speed of war arrows from real life.

 

Unless the arrows are made from dying star or something.

 

Also, weren't historical war longbows 100-130 lbs draw weight? That is almost twice that of 75. Which is pretty high too for hobby and sport but not exactly battlefield grade.

Edited May 12, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Vanadium]

lol wut draw weight u use? 40lbs? lol@bowscrub

 

learn2archery, git gud, etc. /notactuallytrolling

 

To be real, I have still have some trouble quickly drawing my 70lbs compound. Like what the guy above me said, the English longbow averaged around ~120lbs. I can only imagine that those ~5'6" dudes had the most-ripped backs ever. However, the RoF for the average conscripted longbowman is placed at 8-10 arrows/minute. I wouldn't call that quick. Really, Warframe has me feeling spoiled with the RoFs we have with R5 Speed Trigger.

 

So, fast-foward to super-future Sol System, where space-ninja-wizards are still using bows to kill stuff, you're talking hundreds of lbs of draw weight to pierce super-future space-armor and pin semi-super-human clone-soldiers to walls. Multiples of them. I think we're doing pretty good in the RoF area for bows, since I can get off about 3-4 good shots in 10 sec.

[xRufus7x]

Game mechanics are entirely different from animations. To portray a weapon inaccurately is disrespectful to the weapon, to the art of its use, and to the practitioner. Personally, as a practitioner familiar with the katana, I almost revere my weapon. It can save your life or take it. Much of it is ceremonial, some of it is cultural. But there's no denying that weapons demand respect.

Having the weapon you practice with and choose and connect with on a personal level misrepresented is fine, but only if you approach and they are willing to fix it. But when it is brushed off as 'mechanics' or 'already done', then it is gross disrespect of those who put time and effort into learning the use of the weapon, and the decades they will or may have already taken for mastery. I would not see DE the way I do if they had not changed the katana to face blade up, which has cultural and practical importance.

By the same logic this game is disrespectful to hackers, who spend their lives mastering a skill, only to have it inaccurately represented as timing minigame

 

How about snipers who have to account for environmental conditions such as humidity wind and at extreme ranges the rotation of the earth, none of which is accounted for in Warframe where the snipers either instantly hit whatever is in the center of their crosshairs or have a magic energy bullet that moves at the relative speed of a slug. You know what, this one doesn't even just have to be snipers. Anyone who has ever shot a gun in real life realizes there is a lot more to it than what is presented in this or most shooting games. As a recreational shooter I most personally connect with this one. I can't tell you how disrespectful it is to prtray firearms in this way in just about every shooting game in existence. Not to mention Auto Aim. Man that is just flat out disrespectful.

 

Ninjas may be the most disrespected of all as they certainly did not charge into a room and kill 100 soldiers with magical powers. They were covert operatives who were usually farmers trying to find a nitch in a society where they were treated pretty crappie by those in power.

 

Scientists must also be offended, what with the inaccurate portrayal of plasma and laser based weapons.

 

Anyone that has trained with a bladed weapons must be horribly offended by the impracticality and over stylized nature of the combos in this game.

 

Game mechanics are not reflective of real life. The charge time with bows is a fine mechanic, and is actually used in many games, and if it is that offensive to you you can mod it out or not use bows. Honestly, I would say this falls under the category of if it aint broke don't fix it and bows are certainly not broken.

 

As a katana practitioner perhaps you could explain to me the practicality of this little ditty.

 

 

don't you mean that in reality there's no such thing as HitScan Weapons? even Lasers have a travel speed.

so things that move through the air are practical because... that's all that exists. there's no such thing as instant.

besides, the continuum of momentum states that a slow moving projectile, while less efficient generally than a faster moving one, can still provide a lot of impact force provided it's mass is significantly greater than the faster projectile.

 

which is why there's such a wide diversity in Gunpowder based munitions. we have pinprick Sabot's that fly at extreme velocities but do not cause a whole lot of Damage, and larger Caliber projectiles which travel not quite as fast, but bring a lot more force with them.

and more examples - a Deer Slug goes a lot slower than a 7.62x51 projectile, but the Deer Slug carries many, many times more force with it.

 

 

contrary to what most of the Internet and therefore many children think - Space is not silent. there is actually a lot of sound out there, just not really audible to Humans due to low air pressure and the fact that your head would explode if you tried to listen to it with your own ear anyways.

 

Indeed hitscan weapons are in actuality ridiculous, but I felt that the idea of going as far into the future as Warframe seems to have, and seing a significant loss in projectile speed seemed sillier and easier to perceive.

 

Point taken on the noise thing. It was a bad example. Noted for future posts.

Edited May 12, 2015 by xRufus7x

[taiiat]

With that draw weight the arrows would go supersonic. The speed of arrows in this game is way below speed of war arrows from real life.

 

Also, weren't historical war longbows 100-130 lbs draw weight? That is almost twice that of 75. Which is pretty high too for hobby and sport but not exactly battlefield grade.

- i was definitely exaggerating somewhat, but the point being that they're like Rail Drivers with a string, rather than a traditional Bow.

and the Arrows are really nowhere near as slow as people are suggesting. 100m/s is what you can expect from a really crazy Bow, and that isn't much higher than the Bows in Warframe.

 

as far as i'm concerned, the speed in numbers is accurate - not the visual distance it moves. the scale of things in Warframe are not the same as in reality.

 

and hell, we're comparing the Arrow Speeds from real War Longbows to more practical sized Bows in Warframe. and they still perform just slightly shy of those? i think that's a pretty good improvement, to have a ~1m long Bow that is almost matching performance with a 2m Bow.

 

let us also not forget that these Arrows carry so much force, that they can pick up an entire soldier wearing Combat Armor and carry it with them.

that's... a lot of force. which is why i suggested a one ton release force, because they MUST be crazy in order to pick up a ~91Kg person(not including any combat gear) and carry it along, without experiencing any significant velocity drop.

that is just ridiculous.

 

 

- ~90 lb draw weights for War, AFAIK.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

Balance trumps realism.

 

It's unfortunate but that's just how it has to be.

Give the ogris back its stealth then.

[Kruglov]

Its probably more of an issue with weapon balance then anything. 

 

Pretty much this.

Obviously in real life a good archer is like a wooden gatling gun that fires sticks through the air, but with the damage arrows do in Warframe that'd be broken beyond all measure.

 

Sadly such is the way.

Besides if Warframe ran on realistic weapon physics, most melee weapons would kill in 1 shot, the boltor and boltor prime would do magnetic damage, and the Gorgon would be able to tear through thin walls and demolish small vehicles.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

 

 

As a katana practitioner perhaps you could explain to me the practicality of this little ditty.

 

That's an artist's hand at work, but it does have basis in realism. The draw is accurate. Although the strikes are overblown, they have a basis in real sword strikes, and although his footwork moves around a central axis rather than his own body's pivoting motions, I can attribute that to the constraints of the engine and artistic interpretation. The thing is, Excal has superhuman strength, and is capable of these movements with few drawbacks. A normal human would have his head sliced off before stroke two. The Tenno can develop their own style due to their strength, but the fact is that he still uses the sword in a manner that advances upon human use.

 

If a Tenno can't draw a bow properly, that's a problem. Artistic interpretation is different from 'it's just a game' or 'it's a game, it's not realistic'. I'm not asking for realism, I ask that their fundamental properties and use are represented properly. A sword style is just that- a style- but artistic license is no excuse for inaccuracy in representation.

[SeargantHaztagazpacho]

Your fedora's showing.

[xRufus7x]

That's an artist's hand at work, but it does have basis in realism. The draw is accurate. Although the strikes are overblown, they have a basis in real sword strikes, and although his footwork moves around a central axis rather than his own body's pivoting motions, I can attribute that to the constraints of the engine and artistic interpretation. The thing is, Excal has superhuman strength, and is capable of these movements with few drawbacks. A normal human would have his head sliced off before stroke two. The Tenno can develop their own style due to their strength, but the fact is that he still uses the sword in a manner that advances upon human use.

Cool to know. Thankyo

 

 

If a Tenno can't draw a bow properly, that's a problem. Artistic interpretation is different from 'it's just a game' or 'it's a game, it's not realistic'. I'm not asking for realism, I ask that their fundamental properties and use are represented properly. A sword style is just that- a style- but artistic license is no excuse for inaccuracy in representation.

Based on one of the world's oldest weapon designs, this Tenno-crafted weapon can be used both in stealth and in open combat. The Paris uses a chargeable magnetic field to launch arrows capable of impaling enemies to walls.

 

The bows of Warframe obviously take inspiration from modern bows, but they are not bows. If the Paris' codex entry is to be believed they are closer to a rail gun. The pullback of the bow that you are seeing is likely this charge effect and is most likely not related to the tenno's strength or their ability to draw a bow properly.

 

Honestly, I don't see a reason to make the change other than to satisfy a small minority of the community. Keep in mind that most bow builds use one or more mods to decrease their charge time. Changing this mechanic would require a lot of people to modify their builds unnecessarily. I don't see a point in it, but I also don't find it offensive to archers any more than I find the guns offensive to marksmen or any other inaccurately represented gameplay mechanic to offensive to any one that may study or practice a version of it in real life.

Edited May 13, 2015 by xRufus7x

[CelticMoss]

[Holeypaladin]

To be honest, if Warframe bows acted in any way similar to real bows, they'd be completely worthless as weapons compared to guns.  Seriously, a 75 lb bow compared to an M-16... it's really no contest which has the higher muzzle velocity and piercing capabilities.

 

Warframe bows require a long time to draw because they're more like a 7500 lb draw weight to put forth that kind of damage.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Good point, but "bows" in Warframe don't seem like real-life modern bows. They can literally pierce a TANK. Not sure what they are made of but normal human being probably can't draw Dread at all.

Edited May 13, 2015 by (PS4)Lord_Gremlin