What Is This Dissatisfaction With Volt?

[Faulcun]

Ah alright then. I see.

 

Personally I'm not much concerned with how a frame performs on Draco.

Now I don't personally approve of AFK farming tactics but I can't balance things around the fear that people might use something for that.

This is a game where hordes of enemies rush us. So unless we are going to just do away with damage based powers that hit multiple enemies....

there is no real way to balance the frames for raid level content and still somehow prevent them from being strong enough to simply wade through mid level game content. Trying to avoid that is like....biting off our nose to spite our face.

 

I actually think it is possible by taking the actual approach of volt in his current state. For low end content, power spam is more than enough. But as I said before, there reaches a point where you must utilize the passives of an ability, or the buffs that compliment player input. For example, while the damage of an ability falls off, a simple shield will compliment your weapons. Then its up to the player to utilize shot placement to take full advantage of it.

 

Basically the difference between the frame doing the work for you or not is the most clear with a frame like Volt. I think utility on abilities that promote better user involvement is a great way to do it.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Faulcun

[Ronyn]

I stand by the idea that If shock were to hit harder and Overload were to activate faster Volt would still retain his focus on player input by those who wanted to get the most out of him. Even if the powers do slid damage they are not likely to ever compete with what he can pull out of his weapons.

But if these powers do solid damage they can take a more prominent place in his damage output.

 

I actually think it is possible by taking the actual approach of volt in his current state. For low end content, power spam is more than enough. But as I said before, there reaches a point where you must utilize the passives of an ability, or the buffs that compliment player input. For example, while the damage of an ability falls off, a simple shield will compliment your weapons. Then its up to the player to utilize shot placement to take full advantage of it.

 

Basically the difference between the frame doing the work for you or not is the most clear with a frame like Volt. I think utility on abilities that promote better user involvement is a great way to do it.

 

That seems counter intuitive. At least in the conventional sense. Warframe is a game with vertical progression.

There is a very well defined path on how games with vertical progression are supposed to work.

That is to say-

A level 1 frame, with level 1 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 1 enemies. 

A level 10 frame, with level 10 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 10 enemies. 

A level 20 frame, with level 20 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 20 enemies. 

A level 30 frame, with level 30 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 30 enemies. 

A level 30 frame (potatoed/formad) , with level 30 gear (potatoed/formad), should have a decent challenge fighting raid level enemies. 

Simultaneously, there is a skill curve that should be slowly ramping up alongside that numerical progression lessening room for player error.

The combat role you choose for and the tactics you learn are supposed to be practiced along the way so that you, the player, are ready for the time where there is little room for player error.

 

Provided that the player is fighting at the appropriate level for their frame and gear.... 

their powers should never do all the work for you nor should they loose any of their built in aspects.

If a power is so mindlessly easy to able to be consistently repeated that it truly does all the work without thought at any level of the game...

Or If a power looses part of it's purpose at any level of the game....

then something to be adjusted.

 

Somewhere along the way much of the warframe community has come to two very uncommon perspectives.

1: That high leveled frames and gear being overpowered in low level content is somehow surprising.

2: That high leveled enemies negating half the purpose of each power is somehow ok.

 

For number 1, many games overcome the issue by creating negative scaling (scales you down when in low levels) or making high level versions of earlier content (so its still worth playing). But without either two things in play, it's obvious that a maxed frame is going to be too strong in early to mid content. That is the inherent result of the numerical inflation that vertical progression is based on.

 

For number 2....well the vast majority of games try to avoid this kind of thing entirely. That is because it's primary result is problematic on two interconnected fronts. For one thing the role a player chooses will change through the course of progression rendering much of the learning and practice of earlier tactics null and void and making the player feel as though the role they chose is no longer viable.

 

Granted, all of that is about ideal design. In reality there are often flaws in one place or another. But the goal...

the goal to get everything inline as described remains.

 

Comes down to this-

Large groups of gamers will always seek out the most efficient road to riches.

Trying to prevent some cheesy farm tactics by going against core design logic is not the answer.

The answer is to redesign the reward system so that doing more difficult content is more rewarding.

The answer is to redesign the reward system so that getting good rewards is more spread out among different mission options.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Ronyn

[Faulcun]

I stand by the idea that If shock were to hit harder and Overload were to activate faster Volt would still retain his focus on player input by those who wanted to get the most out of him. Even if the powers do slid damage they are not likely to ever compete with what he can pull out of his weapons.

But if these powers do solid damage they can take a more prominent place in his damage output.

 

 

That seems counter intuitive. At least in the conventional sense. Warframe is a game with vertical progression.

There is a very well defined path on how games with vertical progression are supposed to work.

That is to say-

A level 1 frame, with level 1 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 1 enemies. 

A level 10 frame, with level 10 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 10 enemies. 

A level 20 frame, with level 20 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 20 enemies. 

A level 30 frame, with level 30 gear, should have a decent challenge fighting level 30 enemies. 

A level 30 frame (potatoed/formad) , with level 30 gear (potatoed/formad), should have a decent challenge fighting raid level enemies. 

Simultaneously, there is a skill curve that should be slowly ramping up alongside that numerical progression lessening room for player error.

The combat role you choose for and the tactics you learn are supposed to be practiced along the way so that you, the player, are ready for the time where there is little room for player error.

 

Provided that the player is fighting at the appropriate level for their frame and gear.... 

their powers should never do all the work for you nor should they loose any of their built in aspects.

If a power is so mindlessly easy to able to be consistently repeated that it truly does all the work without thought at any level of the game...

Or If a power looses part of it's purpose at any level of the game....

then something to be adjusted.

 

Somewhere along the way much of the warframe community has come to two very uncommon perspectives.

1: That high leveled frames and gear being overpowered in low level content is somehow surprising.

2: That high leveled enemies negating half the purpose of each power is somehow ok.

 

For number 1, many games overcome the issue by creating negative scaling (scales you down when in low levels) or making high level versions of earlier content (so its still worth playing). But without either two things in play, it's obvious that a maxed frame is going to be too strong in early to mid content. That is the inherent result of the numerical inflation that vertical progression is based on.

 

For number 2....well the vast majority of games try to avoid this kind of thing entirely. That is because it's primary result is problematic on two interconnected fronts. For one thing the role a player chooses will change through the course of progression rendering much of the learning and practice of earlier tactics null and void and making the player feel as though the role they chose is no longer viable.

 

Granted, all of that is about ideal design. In reality there are often flaws in one place or another. But the goal...

the goal to get everything inline as described remains.

 

Comes down to this-

Large groups of gamers will always seek out the most efficient road to riches.

Trying to prevent some cheesy farm tactics by going against core design logic is not the answer.

The answer is to redesign the reward system so that doing more difficult content is more rewarding.

The answer is to redesign the reward system so that getting good rewards is more spread out among different mission options.

 

I agree with all of that 100%. Here are the main problems I see with the execution:

 

There are no incentives to learn anything... at all. Ever. So the skills that should be learned at late game.. are lost in the wind. A lot of that could use the MR tests to focus on those skills.... but no.

The cheesy farm tactics have already destroyed the economy in this game that would take an entire year to repair itself.

There are mindless powers that already exist, and continue to be released.

And then you have Powercreep.

 

Combine all of that together, and you have a giant mess... which is what we have now. The combat system has no depth, enemies are scaled in a ridiculous way, recruiting chat consists of p4tw draco heroes, and the focus from the devs is moar content!!11!!

 

I agree that trying to prevent some cheesy farm tactics by going against the core design is a bad idea, but I also think making things worse, or at the very least at this point not even attempting to address the larger issues is also a bad idea.

[Ezariel]

I'd like to Shield for Volt like Frost have. But look slike cube, no sphere.

[PsycloneM]

Volt is a solid warframe. The only dissatisfaction I have is Overload, and that is due to its lack of consistency.

 

Disregarding damage from environmental electronics and the initial damage on cast, Overload at max rank inflicts 225 electricity damage per second within 20 meters over 4 seconds. Every instance of damage has a 100% status chance; for electricity procs, the initial target is briefly stunned, and 50% of the initial damage is discharged in a small AoE.

 

However, much of Overload's stun potential is wasted:

 

• The stun duration of electricity procs does not stack with additional procs. In other words, an enemy that is already affected by an electricity proc cannot be stunned for an additional amount of time until the stun animation has ended.
• The stun animation length is not constant between enemies. As an example, chargers and MOAs can recover from electricity procs faster than most other enemy types.
• Enemies performing certain animations (such as getting in and out of cover) are completely immune to stuns from electricity procs as well as other crowd-controlling status procs.

 

 

Due to these factors, enemies will not always be crowd-controlled for Overload's full duration. Typically, enemies will only be stunned by one or two instances of damage.

 

What I do like about Overload is the fact its damage and duration can be amplified when electronic devices are present. Overload is a radial nuke, but this particular mechanic gives it a unique flair. In order to optimize the effects of Overload, you have to know your environment and take measures to position yourself properly. The issue that I have is the usefulness and abundance of electronics are too limited:

 

• Electronics can only be overloaded once. Destroyed electronics (including those destroyed by other abilities like Banshee's Sound Quake) will not have any effect on Overload.
• Environmental electronics are limited to light fixtures. Security cameras, terminals, monitors, reactors, generators, even electronic enemy types have no contribution to Overload.
• Abundance of available electronics is heavily dependent on the tileset. For example, Corpus tilesets often have a high abundance of available electronics, whereas outdoor tilesets have none.

 

 

With these factors, Overload will often have a highly variable damage output and duration (even within the same casting area).

 

If electricity proc stuns could override certain enemy animations and be reset with additional electricity procs, if there were a greater variety of electronics that could be compatible with Overload with improved distribution in each tileset, if overloaded electronics could be used more than once (perhaps with the implementation of a cooldown that depends on Overload's previous duration), and if other warframe abilities could temporarily disable electronics instead of completely destroying them, Overload could be a more consistent and reliable ultimate.

 

 

That being said, if Overload were to be completely reworked, going from a radial nuke that overloads environmental electronics to a self-buff that overloads Volt by temporarily enhancing his base stats and the base stats of his abilities while introducing new ability mechanics (and synergy) at a justified cost, I would not miss Overload's current iteration.

Edited August 30, 2015 by PsycloneM

[CrazyFugee.TTV]

Most people want a frame in a team, that usually does one or two things like: gives energy, buffs damage, provides protecion, does dps, or various cc. Not something that does cc/stuns, buffs speeds, and provides protection with dps.

 

Overload still needs a rework tho.

Edited August 30, 2015 by CrazyFugee

[ZoneDymo]

Honestly I dont get it either, Volt is an hilarious frame to play with.

 

First ability stuns and can hit multiple people leaving them open for attack or giving you some breathing room.

 

Second Ability Speed affects you, your team mates, in both movement and melee and its hilarious and very effective.

 

Third ability, a damn shield that also powers weapons fire that goes through it, what more do you want?

 

Fourth ability, It used to be great, then it became weak but having recently leveled Volt Prime it seems perfectly serviceable again.

 

 

With Warframes like Limbo and Oberon and Nekros and Saryn I have no clue why so much attention is given to Volt.

[ZoneDymo]

Most people want a frame in a team, that usually does one or two things like: gives energy, buffs damage, provides protecion, does dps, or various cc. Not something that does cc/stuns, buffs speeds, and provides protection with dps.

 

Overload still needs a rework tho.

 

The hell? did you even read what you wrote?

 

Buffs damage, Volt does that through Speed with melee and through a the shield that adds damage.

Provides protection, Volt does that again, via the shield.

Does dps? (how is that different vs "buffs damage"?) but again, Through the shield and with the Speed.

Various CC......you mean like his 1st and 4th? they fit that exactly.....

[Burnthesteak87]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/519495-august-28th-community-hot-topics/?p=5817180

[Kainosh]

Dissatisfaction comes when you Realise that Volt is perfectly balanced....But other frames and high lvl content (Raids and such) are not.

 

And here is result. Volt , while being really good, have no use for team in real "top tier" stuff.  Coz top tier need loooong OP stuns and Godly damage negation for whole team....Not just a small shield that last few seconds.

 

I find Volt powers really good....Just DE made rest of the content far more "Powerfull" to handle with his current, not OP arsenal.

 

 

Currently, Good frame = Frame that have ability to completely disable enemies OR completely negate damage for a loong time....Just so everyone could stand there, yawing, and shoot disabled enemies....  Because if they dont disable enemies completely...Everyone gets oneshotted.

 

DE released very OP frames....Nova, Trin, Mirage .....These just made most frames obsolete. Then DE released content that cant be played without these OP frames.....  

 

Sure people who like playing Volt (Or any other "weak" frame) are upset. Its unfair damnit.

[msterforks]

I'd like to mention that Volt's shields are invincible, and last an absurd amount of time. Couple that with the 200% crit multiplier, and you'll start seeing some absurd numbers.

 

Overload is subpar, but not every frame has to be built for the ult. A newer player might like the ult, but as he gets more experienced and tackles tougher missions, he'll want to move more towards the shield. If he wants a more powerful ult, he'll switch frames.

 

Actually, scratch that. Let's just give Volt Miasma. Because everyone is whining.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

I'd like to mention that Volt's shields are invincible, and last an absurd amount of time. Couple that with the 200% crit multiplier, and you'll start seeing some absurd numbers.

 

Overload is subpar, but not every frame has to be built for the ult. A newer player might like the ult, but as he gets more experienced and tackles tougher missions, he'll want to move more towards the shield. If he wants a more powerful ult, he'll switch frames.

 

Actually, scratch that. Let's just give Volt Miasma. Because everyone is whining.

Bombards and blasts go right through. Better cast 2, 10 ft apart in multiple directions. Nyx's 4, Absorb is Volt's 3,4 combined with true protection 360 degrees, full animation protection, and can be used purely for "stun" via knockdown.

Overload red-lights his kit as well...

[Faulcun]

Bombards and blasts go right through. Better cast 2, 10 ft apart in multiple directions. Nyx's 4, Absorb is Volt's 3,4 combined with true protection 360 degrees, full animation protection, and can be used purely for "stun" via knockdown.

Overload red-lights his kit as well...

 

That doesnt make sense. Volt can move around and revive people. You cannot compare volt's shield to the most widely used panic button in the game. They are two completely different things.

 

What I would like to see is enemies take some kind of damage or debuff when they pass THOUGH volt's shield

[(PSN)Silverback73]

That doesnt make sense. Volt can move around and revive people. You cannot compare volt's shield to the most widely used panic button in the game. They are two completely different things.

 

What I would like to see is enemies take some kind of damage or debuff when they pass THOUGH volt's shield

You are changing my argument. It does make sense.

To make Volt's 4 equivalent to Nyx's 4:

Cast absorb. Execute fast-acting knockdown w. Damage.

Cast shield. Cast shield. Cast shield. (triangle pattern). Hope explosives and bombards and arson Eximus aren't incoming.

Execute slow-acting Overload and animation and wait for stun w. Damage.

You can add up time and energy comparables and throw in the legit vs conditional protection.

[belcebub]

I'm not completely sure what's with all the dissatisfaction, besides people being kinda rework-happy atm. I imagine volt suffers from the same falloff damage wise as all the other pure damage ability centric frames like ember.

 

I personally can't play volt much because he's just so boring and unimaginative it's not fun.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

 

Think before post.

 

Did you see how many shields is there? We all standind behind last one, so its enough to not get hit from "magic blow". But still bombards missiles hit us sometimes. 

 

 

 

 

You presented two applications of this skill. Great!

If I want mobility, I get Excal and is really universal. I have mobility (1 skill), good attack, good stun and more.

If team split up and each player go to other edge of map, that means those players are noobs. Team should stay togheter and co-op. If theydown becasue split up, no one run for help them and risk hes own life.

With Movement 2.0 we can quickly move without Volt boost.

This ability is useless.

 

 

 

 

Frost Ice Globe can be spamed...

Push out and freez enemies when recast...

Volts shields is small and leaks. Useless against bombardsand and others...

From inside IG I can shot from any high-dmg weapon without fear. I don't need endless range or more dmg becasue i have tonkor, opticor etc... and other of party members. Mesa, excal, just dps frames.

 

Bombards can hit through anything. They hit you through Snow Globe (when they were first introduced to the void they would kill entire parties in defence missions because of the blast), they can hit through planes of existence, yup, they can hit Limbo in the rift, and they will just pull a middle finger at you even if there's a wall inbetween the 2 of you, this actually destroys frames like Mesa that reduced ranged damage but not the AoE.

 

The blast of their missiles can actually be quite ridiculous. At like, level 80 or something, they can easily 1 hit you, with the AoE alone, which is rather ridiculous considering the homing (Corrupted tend to follow you everywhere unless you to a 180º turn, which might as well make him face the bombard again if not another missile) and the blast size. Honestly, the AoE damage should've been nerfed eons ago, it's ridiculous the amount of damage that they deal even when you are at the edge of the hitbox, and this brings problems like I've said above, they can obliterate you through a wall if they decide to ignore it and try to shoot at you through it, or if the missile just hits any obstacle. How you have to play to dodge them is so restrictive that it makes it really hard to fully dodge them in many tiles, and at high levels in places like survival, you don't have the time or the space to dodge multiple missiles that are behind you and things like Heavy gunners, grappling hooks and other minor units that might as well get you screwed over a minor mistake.

And even when their missile doesn't kill you, it might as well set you up for death or a few painful seconds.

 

With that said, Bombards barely make an argument for Volt's shield, because their existence itself is an issue, a different issue.

BTW, comparing with snow globe and not listing all the good things about Volt's shield is rather... skewed. You can spam snow globe but only have 4 different globes, you can make multiple Shields and the number of shields that you can exist seems to be infinite and only limited by their duration (because even if you had infinite energy they would despawn). Snow Globe is an area denial ability, Volt's shield is a simple cover that you can shoot through. Snow Globe "leaks" too, but range mods can help this a little but you can still get hit by AoE through it. Snow Globe gives a debuff when enemies are inside it, Volt's shield gives multiple buffs to the bullets that go through it, some of them can actually stack (it's fun to 1 hit bosses thanks to that), those buffs are a huge pro, which requires some cons, in this case, it's not as big as snow globe for example, still, it's not that small either (it used to be much smaller, Alad V still uses the small version). Snow Globe has HP, Shield has duration.

 

Both abilities are quite alike, but they work in completely different ways, Snow Globe is more about defence, denying attacks to an area (and enemy existence during the cast) and slow enemies that get inside to further protect those inside, Shield is about defending yourself and others that decide to use it for a short while but buffing their weapons as well to keep the offensive posture in the battlefield.

Of course you could use Snow Globe in an offensive way and have it simply protect you from bullets, but the globe will only protect you, Shield loses in protection but offers an offensive reinforcement in trade.

 

 

 

 

 

I do agree that speed not somewhat speeding up bulletjump kinda of makes it lose the charm.

 

Only thing I would like for the shield is for it to get slightly bigger on the edges that curve in, so when you use 2 shields they can cover all around you without making that process extremely hard to make sure that there is no gaps.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[Ezariel]

I think Volt can get mechanics similiar to Nova. He have duration, so it can stay if DE rise up dur of hes skills to decent value. Change Volt shield for Cube like frost have, change ult, and all should be happy. Give to speed ability affect on reload, and we should get another party frame ready for many situations.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

 

Only thing I would like for the shield is for it to get slightly bigger on the edges that curve in, so when you use 2 shields they can cover all around you without making that process extremely hard to make sure that there is no gaps.

Genius is simplicity is genius. ^

lvl 1: current shield size

Lvl 2: current shield size +10% w greater wrap-around

lvl 3: current shield size +20% w 180 degree wrap as above

[Faulcun]

You are changing my argument. It does make sense.

To make Volt's 4 equivalent to Nyx's 4:

Cast absorb. Execute fast-acting knockdown w. Damage.

Cast shield. Cast shield. Cast shield. (triangle pattern). Hope explosives and bombards and arson Eximus aren't incoming.

Execute slow-acting Overload and animation and wait for stun w. Damage.

You can add up time and energy comparables and throw in the legit vs conditional protection.

 

Then i guess i still dont understand. If you want volt to be like nyx.... play nyx.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Then i guess i still dont understand. If you want volt to be like nyx.... play nyx.

I want a 4 pay-off that works synergistically like Nyx and Loki and Nextcaliber and Nova have in their kit. Lol @ bring coy.

[RealPandemonium]

Disregarding damage from environmental electronics and the initial damage on cast, Overload at max rank inflicts 225 electricity damage per second within 20 meters over 4 seconds. Every instance of damage has a 100% status chance; for electricity procs, the initial target is briefly stunned, and 50% of the initial damage is discharged in a small AoE.

 

However, much of Overload's stun potential is wasted:

 

• The stun duration of electricity procs does not stack with additional procs. In other words, an enemy that is already affected by an electricity proc cannot be stunned for an additional amount of time until the stun animation has ended.
• The stun animation length is not constant between enemies. As an example, chargers and MOAs can recover from electricity procs faster than most other enemy types.
• Enemies performing certain animations (such as getting in and out of cover) are completely immune to stuns from electricity procs as well as other crowd-controlling status procs.

Copy/Pasting from other thread:

The main problem with Electric damage in this game is that it has a huge penalty to Alloy Grineer and only deals bonus damage to Robotics, who also have shields that need to be dropped first.  That, and Grineer armor scaling neutering every damage type that doesn't ignore it.

 

In terms of maxcase or even medium-case Overload beats out every radial nuke except for Miasma in terms of total damage dealt, and it does it with above-average range and a stun attached.  I will repost my breakdown of Overload's damage potential if desired.

 

If I could tweak Overload, I would do this:

 

- Space out the time between pulses just enough so that the stuns from their Electric procs don't overlap and nullify each other.  Increase base damage per pulse to 300 (from 225) to compensate for the loss of DPS.

 

- Increase the range of the initial pulse to the full 20m, but keep the damage fall-off (scaled up to the new range, increasing overall damage potential at range.)

 

- Allow electronics to recharge over time after being broken, either with a fixed cooldown of one minute or a by a percent over time (1% per second,) with the number of bonus pulses per electronic increasing by one every 25% and capping at a maximum of 125%.

 

 

I would also give Volt an augment for one of his powers (Shock seems like the best candidate even though it already has an augment) that would allow him to collect enemies together, increasing the damage potential of the Electric procs coming from his powers and weapons.  

 

Maybe something like: All enemies damaged by Shock are hurled toward the position of Shock's initial impact point (where you aimed it.)  Or, it could be an Electric Shield augment that pulls enemies toward the shield when they get close, kind of like a mini Vortex.  Casting Shock though the shield would cause damaged enemies to also be pulled to the Shield, allowing Volt to pull even distant enemies to the position of his choosing.

 

Implementing some or all (I wish) of these changes and adjusting Electric damage's interactions with health types would make Overload an undoubtedly strong power both for damage and CC, but requiring a little extra setup to maximize its damage potential.  

 

Edited September 1, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[WinterLynx]

When I started the game I picked volt and only used overload to learn what it did the other 3 abilitys were usefull but overload felt useless and it still does I agree that he needs a few qol improvments. Though i want to see a bit more done to overload.

[Faulcun]

I want a 4 pay-off that works synergistically like Nyx and Loki and Nextcaliber and Nova have in their kit. Lol @ bring coy.

 

Right now, people only pick Loki for ONE ability. #4

people only pick excal for ONE ability. #4

people only pick Nova for ONE ability. #4

people only pick Nyx for TWO abilities. #3, and 4

 

Is this the goal with volt? Nobody "synergizes" those powers with anything in their loadout. Volt is one of the only frames that is actually balanced. I NEVER see anybody use any of the other abilities except for invisibility, or the occasional worm hole. The problem here isnt the frame.

 

Edit: I just spent the night playing Volt, picking people up in T4D who were struggling to make it to 20 waves. The frost is a given, but as soon as i saw somebody bring up a mesa.... I knew what was gonna happen. Again, I stress that the problem here isnt the frame.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Faulcun

[Oishii]

I don't know volt is probably one of the most balanced warframes. The problems with Volt are more with the rest of the game than Volt himself.

[TwiceDead]

Volt is one of the best frames in the game, versatile without any real drawbacks with the exception being his electric elemental affinity. 

Overload would be a great damage ability if any enemies were actually weak to electric, as it has a huge radius and a stun to boot, however most enemies who are vulnerable to electric damage are usually covered by a shield, which is not vulnerable to electric damage so it doesn't matter.