So I Got Tired Of Mesa Complaints

[RazrOutlaw]

Let's look at every ability in the game and ask ourselves one simple question:

 

Does this ability lock me in place and prevent me from using my controls for a minute and a half?

 

If the answer is yes, that ability has a problem. If the answer is no, that ability may still have problems, but it doesn't have the problem of being completely mindless.

The other abilities where designed for you to move while doing so, but, If I want to bullet jump from place to place spamming peacemaker, why is it any different than, lets say, miasma, bladestorm, etc. All the other warframe abilities are completely mindless, they just take as much skill as pressing a button, so if your problem is with the ability turning you stationary, that's one of it's disadvantages, It's  meant to be like that, I could stand still in any defense mission or the infamous draco with my saryn and have the same "mindless" results, It's not that we choose not to move with peacemaker, we aren't allowed to, and that is part of the downfalls we put up with for the great ability we have. All of warframes fourth abilities are brainded, no one can say otherwise.

Edited September 2, 2015 by RazrOutlaw

[vaugahn]

The other abilities where designed for you to move while doing so, but, If I want to bullet jump from place to place spamming peacemaker, why is it any different than, lets say, miasma, bladestorm, etc. All the other warframe abilities are completely mindless, they just take as much skill as pressing a button, so if your problem is with the ability turning you stationary, that's one of it's disadvantages, It's  meant to be like that, I could stand still in any defese mission or the infamous draco with my saryn and have the same "mindless" results, It's not that we choose not to move with peacemaker, we aren't allowed to, and that is part of the downfalls we put up with for the great ability we have. All of warframes fourth abilities are brainded, no one can say otherwise.

 

Ask the question:

 

Does this ability lock me in place and prevent me from using my controls for a minute and a half?

 

You could argue that you could get the same results by standing in place and hammering a key, but that's the only behavior Peacemaker allows. The ability is designed for mindlessness from the start.

 

And do you honestly think we should just put up and shut up? Just accept the way things are because that's how they were put in? If so, why are you on a feedback forum?

[Ashnal]

I run a Shatter Shield build for a lot of missions I run as Mesa. Damn I would absolutely LOVE if shooting gallery would stay around Mesa in squad play. It's so good, yet I can never really use because it's only active for me 1/4th the time.

 

WTB Selfish Shooting Gallery patch/Augment

[RazrOutlaw]

Ask the question:

 

Does this ability lock me in place and prevent me from using my controls for a minute and a half?

 

You could argue that you could get the same results by standing in place and hammering a key, but that's the only behavior Peacemaker allows. The ability is designed for mindlessness from the start.

 

And do you honestly think we should just put up and shut up? Just accept the way things are because that's how they were put in? If so, why are you on a feedback forum?

The feedback you are guys are giving is completely absurd, just because the ability locks you in place makes it more braindead than pushing 1 single button? are you serious?, I can't understand how people think being able to move requires more skill for you to use the other 4th abilities, all of them are the press of one single button, people don't seem to complain about that in mobas, nor with the other warframes, but they complain about mesa just because she turns stationary, It's like if someone would say this: 

is brainded just because it makes you stand still, that's how the ability is meant to work.

[Eminem2420]

I honestly see nothing good coming out of this thread. It has turned into endless arguments.

[vaugahn]

The feedback you are guys are giving is completely absurd, just because the ability locks you in place makes it more braindead than pushing 1 single button? are you serious?, I can't understand how people think being able to move requires more skill for you to use the other 4th abilities, all of them are the press of one single button, people don't seem to complain about that in mobas, nor with the other warframes, but they complain about mesa just because she turns stationary, It's like if someone would say this is brainded just because it makes you stand still, that's how the ability is meant to work.

 

Hey, remember the question? Let's apply it to that video. (implying that a PvP MOBA is an accurate comparison to Warframe anyways, considering how different those two genres are) 

 

Does this ability root me in place and lock me out of my controls for a minute and a half?

 

And the answer is...no, it doesn't. It's three seconds long. Which, I'd like to point out, would be considered an unbearably long cast time for any ability other than one like Peacemaker.

 

I'm clearly not getting through to you though, so I'll try something different. Just say that mindless abilities are good, and we can just agree to disagree. You're arguing in favor of Peacemaker's current form, and you've admitted Peacemaker is mindless. If you think mindless abilities are a good thing, I will respect your opinion.

[RazrOutlaw]

Hey, remember the question? Let's apply it to that video. (implying that a PvP MOBA is an accurate comparison to Warframe anyways, considering how different those two genres are) 

 

Does this ability root me in place and lock me out of my controls for a minute and a half?

 

And the answer is...no, it doesn't. It's three seconds long. Which, I'd like to point out, would be considered an unbearably long cast time for any ability other than one like Peacemaker.

 

I'm clearly not getting through to you though, so I'll try something different. Just say that mindless abilities are good, and we can just agree to disagree. You're arguing in favor of Peacemaker's current form, and you've admitted Peacemaker is mindless. If you think mindless abilities are a good thing, I will respect your opinion.

We clearly disagree in just one thing, peacemaker locks you in place for a minute and a half when you've got full energy, so if people exploit this becomes a brainless ability, I can't think of any mesa player that isn't running with large amount of energy pads, a trinity or even a nekros can sustain peacemaker for more than 1 wave of any defense mission, and yeah, probably I am saying peacemaker or breainded abilities are a good thing, I really like how peacemaker shines on defense maps, even though I really don't play them all that much, neither I spam peacemaker that much, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the uses of this skill.

[Mac2492]

 Non-interactive and trivializes gameplay, but that is the main problem with all the other 4th abilities in warframe, the only way they differ with mesa is you are able to move, but it doesn't require more intelligence than pressing a button, so I think people complaining about peacemaker should take a moment to check all the other fourth abilities in warframe, they are all brainded press 4 to win (or press 4 and spam E), I highly agree on asking your teammates if they'd like you to use peacemaker, I've joined pubs on sechura as mesa, and I always asked them if they want me to turret the way to the 5th round, cause maybe I'm messing with their effigy or they just like to slice up infested.

You're right about the other 4th abilities in Warframe, but this topic isn't about them. Warframe on the whole gets a lot of things right, but is still has its major flaws including uncreative mission types, stealth as a whole, and braindead 4th abilities. I'm equally against using Equinox's Maim to run through low level missions with players who want to participate (though I admittedly do it every now and then when tired) and Trinity's Energy Vampire, which is in my opinion the most problematic skill in the game. That's coming from someone who mains support in every game and farmed Trinity immediately after starting Warframe. Saryn's kit is a mess. Excalibur's Exalted Blade is great conceptually but arguably too strong.

 

While other frames have problematic ults, Peacemaker is one of the most blatant by being hitscan with essentially unlimited range. Saryn and Mag might blow up everything them but their base range isn't even 20m. Pressing one button to blow everything near you is pretty silly, but holding a button to kill everything on the map for over a minute is next level. No one here is actually saying that every other frame is fine. It's just that Peacemaker is one of the most problematic skills when it works and one of the most useless skills when it doesn't. As such, players who dislike it want to change its braindeadness and players who like it want it to be more useful for high level content.

[RazrOutlaw]

You're right about the other 4th abilities in Warframe, but this topic isn't about them. Warframe on the whole gets a lot of things right, but is still has its major flaws including uncreative mission types, stealth as a whole, and braindead 4th abilities. I'm equally against using Equinox's Maim to run through low level missions with players who want to participate (though I admittedly do it every now and then when tired) and Trinity's Energy Vampire, which is in my opinion the most problematic skill in the game. That's coming from someone who mains support in every game and farmed Trinity immediately after starting Warframe. Saryn's kit is a mess. Excalibur's Exalted Blade is great conceptually but arguably too strong.

 

While other frames have problematic ults, Peacemaker is one of the most blatant by being hitscan with essentially unlimited range. Saryn and Mag might blow up everything them but their base range isn't even 20m. Pressing one button to blow everything near you is pretty silly, but holding a button to kill everything on the map for over a minute is next level. No one here is actually saying that every other frame is fine. It's just that Peacemaker is one of the most problematic skills when it works and one of the most useless skills when it doesn't. As such, players who dislike it want to change its braindeadness and players who like it want it to be more useful for high level content.

That's another part of the problem, people are just claiming nerfs for it, or saying that it should get the Exalted blade treatment, do you imagine how strong that would be when paired with ballistic battery, arcane awakening and a fully modded lex prime? Numbers would go off the charts and will become the most broken ability in the game, which I don't think excalibur's EB is, yeah, it's strong, but so is radial disarm, and I'm not talking in terms of damage here anymore, just taking the weapon out of every enemy regardless it's level it's strong, but it's suppossed to be that way, just like peacemaker is working as intended by the developers. Also a fully modded saryn can reach 35m with miasma, that's 15 less range and it's not a LoS ability, I would take those 15m range nerf for shooting through walls all day, everyday.

 

Edit: excalibur EB, not EV :P.

Edited September 2, 2015 by RazrOutlaw

[Mac2492]

There are a few points here.

Several of the people you are directly responding to are not making the arguments you're trying to counter. I already agreed that the skill doesn't need a nerf. I just think that it needs a rework instead. I don't want it to have less power. If anything I want it to have more power. I just also want it to be more interactive, because it looks amazing but in practice ends up being an ability that requires no skill or thought.

I also feel that Exalted Blade is still a bit on the "too strong" side, but that doesn't mean it can't be tuned. They've already shaved off some power in the hotfixes. The concept is not inherently imbalanced, so implementing something similar for Peacemaker won't necessarily create an imbalanced skill. It's not really fair to use a hypothetical worst-case scenario as a counter argument when the concept can be implemented in a balanced manner.

35m is nothing compared to Peacemaker, which easily hits at 80m. With that said, both skills are pretty poorly designed imo. I'd appreciate a rework for both. The key goal here is not to just take away power, but to change skills that make the gameplay stale. If you make Venom transfer to enemies on death (or allow spores to be popped on dead enemies), adjust Contagion to proc Toxin on every hit, then change Miasma to deal damage based on Spores and Toxin stacks on enemies within 30m you already have a much more interesting character. This is the type of change that I feel would benefit Mesa.

[RazrOutlaw]

There are a few points here.

Several of the people you are directly responding to are not making the arguments you're trying to counter. I already agreed that the skill doesn't need a nerf. I just think that it needs a rework instead. I don't want it to have less power. If anything I want it to have more power. I just also want it to be more interactive, because it looks amazing but in practice ends up being an ability that requires no skill or thought.

I also feel that Exalted Blade is still a bit on the "too strong" side, but that doesn't mean it can't be tuned. They've already shaved off some power in the hotfixes. The concept is not inherently imbalanced, so implementing something similar for Peacemaker won't necessarily create an imbalanced skill. It's not really fair to use a hypothetical worst-case scenario as a counter argument when the concept can be implemented in a balanced manner.

35m is nothing compared to Peacemaker, which easily hits at 80m. With that said, both skills are pretty poorly designed imo. I'd appreciate a rework for both. The key goal here is not to just take away power, but to change skills that make the gameplay stale. If you make Venom transfer to enemies on death (or allow spores to be popped on dead enemies), adjust Contagion to proc Toxin on every hit, then change Miasma to deal damage based on Spores and Toxin stacks on enemies within 30m you already have a much more interesting character. This is the type of change that I feel would benefit Mesa.

Peacemaker base range is 50, and can't be altered, maybe that's a bit strong, a nice nerf would be to keep the base 50 as a capped range (leaving it as the base range of the ability) and make it suffer from range loss when you slap on narrow minded, seeming that everyone is doing a peacemaker duration mesa nowadays, and I'm not taking the worst kind of scenario for the rework, I'm just taking as an example the exalted blade we have now (imagine if it would be affected by syndicate mods and you could use your lifesteal furis with it?, that would be entirely broken), I'm just saying the reality is there, exalted blade is strong, and based on all the pistol and secondary mods the normal assumption to make is that exalted pistols would be even a stronger ability, regardless, I hope they keep peacemaker as it is, I think is really useful on defense missions, and while I do highly agree that's a braindead, with no skill implied ability, same are all the other warframe's one, where you just press a button and that's it, the only problem why this abilities are broken is because whe have no cooldown for it (a "nice" nerf would be to give the regulators a "overheating" effect, so when mesa toggles off her ult, she can't get instant energy from trinity's ev).

[Mac2492]

I stand corrected on the range. For some reason I had remembered it as 80m, but it indeed 50m.

 

Duration and Range both have no effect on Peacemaker which is indeed part of its strength.

You can use stack Fleeting Expertise, Streamline, and mid-rank Blind Rage with no downside.

Making its range affected by Power Range might actually have the opposite affect (even more excessive range xD), but I don't think this is the right place to tune Peacemaker anyway.

 

Secondary mods are strong but you could lower the base damage and stats of Peacemaker to compensate. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be broken but I'm not really in support of the Exalted Blade clone idea. If the stats are right, the skill can be balanced. I understand why you're drawing the parallel to Exalted Blade, but Exalted Blade is not strong simply because it uses weapon mods. It's strong because it has high base damage, high range, and decent attack speed, that is also affected by weapon mods. Even if you cut its damage down from 250 to 150 it would still be a very, very effective skill. The solution to the Lifesteal Furis problem is to disallow Syndicate mods, just like they did with Exalted Blade in the hotfix. They removed it from Exalted Blade after much discussion, so chances are they won't just throw that mechanic onto another skill. I'm not sure why you feel that this has to be broken.

 

Peacemaker is really nice for defense. I think it would be mostly fine if the game was single-player, because you could choose to use it or not. The issue is that it directly affects the enjoyment of the game for other players. I'm personally okay with a Mesa on my team, but if someone walks into a defense mission and is upset because Mesa is one-shotting every enemy in the vicinity by holding one button down their frustration is pretty understandable.

 

In the end, I do take issue with the easiness from a design perspective but I feel that the real issue is that the skill trivializes many mission types for your entire team whether they want it to or not. When four players walk into a game, it shouldn't be this easy and commonplace for one player to single-handedly force the other three players to sit out.

[RazrOutlaw]

I stand corrected on the range. For some reason I had remembered it as 80m, but it indeed 50m.

 

Duration and Range both have no effect on Peacemaker which is indeed part of its strength.

You can use stack Fleeting Expertise, Streamline, and mid-rank Blind Rage with no downside.

Making its range affected by Power Range might actually have the opposite affect (even more excessive range xD), but I don't think this is the right place to tune Peacemaker anyway.

 

Secondary mods are strong but you could lower the base damage and stats of Peacemaker to compensate. I'm just saying it doesn't have to be broken but I'm not really in support of the Exalted Blade clone idea. If the stats are right, the skill can be balanced. I understand why you're drawing the parallel to Exalted Blade, but Exalted Blade is not strong simply because it uses weapon mods. It's strong because it has high base damage, high range, and decent attack speed, that is also affected by weapon mods. Even if you cut its damage down from 250 to 150 it would still be a very, very effective skill. The solution to the Lifesteal Furis problem is to disallow Syndicate mods, just like they did with Exalted Blade in the hotfix. They removed it from Exalted Blade after much discussion, so chances are they won't just throw that mechanic onto another skill. I'm not sure why you feel that this has to be broken.

 

Peacemaker is really nice for defense. I think it would be mostly fine if the game was single-player, because you could choose to use it or not. The issue is that it directly affects the enjoyment of the game for other players. I'm personally okay with a Mesa on my team, but if someone walks into a defense mission and is upset because Mesa is one-shotting every enemy in the vicinity by holding one button down their frustration is pretty understandable.

 

In the end, I do take issue with the easiness from a design perspective but I feel that the real issue is that the skill trivializes many mission types for your entire team whether they want it to or not. When four players walk into a game, it shouldn't be this easy and commonplace for one player to single-handedly force the other three players to sit out.

That's why I said, keep the 50 meters as a capped range & base range, but make it take some kind of punishment when you equip narrow minded.

Personally I never found a peacemaker spammer mesa, unless I wanted to, but it's because I play solo or invite/friends only, I do understand lot's of people play in public matches and it's one of the cool parts of this game, and I can't be asking them to don't do it in order for them to have fun and avoid mesa's skill, that'd be outright ridiculous, now what we could do as a communitty is not to spam this ability on every game mode, I personally just use it for defense or mobile defense missions, regardless this wouldn't be a solution to it, but complaining when you joined a squad that was recruiting on chat is a bad thing to do aswell, it's just a stupid thing to do, the owner of the key/party wants the mesa there, so If you have a different opinion you are allowed to leave, something like this happened with a guy from my clan recently, he had different opinions about a decision our warlord made, so he left, no one forced him to stay, no one forces anyone to join a group where there's a mesa, or a saryn in my personal case, I don't like when saryn's nuke everything while im playing limbo, but I don't complain, because I also use miasma to speedrun invasion missions when I don't have the time to play them like I should.

[[DE]Momaw]

I'm kind of tired of Mesa complaints too, but Peacemaker hasn't been reworked yet so we'll just have to keep fighting the good fight until it is.  Stay strong!

 

And since there's apparently some effort in this thread about making Peacemaker be less goofy, I still stand behind this idea:

 

* Duration-based power, 100 energy for 10 seconds

* Enemies within 15 radial meters of the player are affected/unaffected dynamically as the player moves

* Enemies within a few degrees of the player's crosshair are affected/unaffected dynamically as the player aims

* Affected enemies are slowed to 5% of normal speed

* Mesa switches to her Regulator pistols for the duration, which are aimed and fired like any other weapon

* Regulators do 1000 finisher damage, semi auto at 10 rounds per second. 400% damage on head shots.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Momaw

[saltygr33n]

I'll be honest.......

 

The moment when you think you're tanking all those bullets flying and hitting you......

 

Then.....

 

BAM!!!!

 

You just got pwned by melee!

[Fari]

Just because before enemies get strong is boring doesn't mean 30 minutes of sitting around with a stupid mesa shooting everything isn't way more boring. Not only is Mesa boring to play with, she's boring to play AS. Which is what kills me the most, the concept of a gunner frame is really great, but then what do we get, rewards for skillful aiming? Nah, another afk bot who doesn't meaningfully do anything for guns at all, for that matter.

[CephalonShy]

Don't worry, when pacemaker is finally nerfed (and it will be), you won't see any more complaints.

[Dreadwire]

I tired or reading about people complaining about mesa complaints

[RazrOutlaw]

Just because before enemies get strong is boring doesn't mean 30 minutes of sitting around with a stupid mesa shooting everything isn't way more boring. Not only is Mesa boring to play with, she's boring to play AS. Which is what kills me the most, the concept of a gunner frame is really great, but then what do we get, rewards for skillful aiming? Nah, another afk bot who doesn't meaningfully do anything for guns at all, for that matter.

I enjoy playing as mesa, A LOT, while it's true that I enjoy much more using only shooting gallery and shattershield, I also enjoy watching the animations on peacemaker as my little gunslinger tears enemies apart 1 by 1, I also want to stress that you said another afk bot, finally someone that agrees there are lot of other frames that are afk "turrets", being able to move doesnt require any skill in pressing 4 and nuking a room, people seem to complain of peacemaker because it turns mesa stationary, and that's their definition on brainded, but miasma is as brainded as peacemaker, so why aren't a load of post against saryn? because mesa has become the staple "farming turret" of the player base in draco, and this brought hatred towards her by a lot of players, while we the ones that only use peacemaker at defense missions have to put up with people begging for nerfs or reworks, when there are other  frames that clearly need them more.

[Elenortirie]

Does this ability root me in place and lock me out of my controls for a minute and a half?

 

technically peacemaker does not as well - you can toggle it out whenever you like.....

[Fari]

I enjoy playing as mesa, A LOT, while it's true that I enjoy much more using only shooting gallery and shattershield, I also enjoy watching the animations on peacemaker as my little gunslinger tears enemies apart 1 by 1, I also want to stress that you said another afk bot, finally someone that agrees there are lot of other frames that are afk "turrets", being able to move doesnt require any skill in pressing 4 and nuking a room, people seem to complain of peacemaker because it turns mesa stationary, and that's their definition on brainded, but miasma is as brainded as peacemaker, so why aren't a load of post against saryn? because mesa has become the staple "farming turret" of the player base in draco, and this brought hatred towards her by a lot of players, while we the ones that only use peacemaker at defense missions have to put up with people begging for nerfs or reworks, when there are other  frames that clearly need them more.

Personally, I don't make a habit out of bashing on Mesa even if I dislike the place she's in and potential wasted, but yeah lots of frames are in as bad a spot. Saryn overall, Volt's ult, Ember's ult even if it's a slight guilty pleasure for Exterminates, Her 3 too, Excal's 3 even if it doesn't do it's job super well any more it's still a boring skill as well, Rhino stomp, pretty much any of the big aoe nukes that center on you. 

 

That said, yeah I want all of those reworked, and probably other skills not coming to mind at the second too, though to be fair Saryn is planned for a rework next I think? Ignoring that Valkyr's stated to get a lil something with her new skin as well. Hopefully it will touch on Miasma being uninteractive, though I wouldn't be surprised if it sadly doesn't touch on the problem. To be honest, I think Miasma is slightly less of an offender though since it's far more limited range, and promotes getting right into the middle of enemies first, then repeating. But her other skills are all in a terrible spot, at least Mesa can be used for things outside of ult.

 

But yeah anyways, I 100% don't want Mesa to get killed or anything, I just want her to be a bit different, more gunner, and more fun. And like you said, she's far less deserving of reworks than like... 8 other frames, looking at the wiki. So as far as resources go, I could tolerate her just staying as is until she can get a proper look at and some real attention, instead of some "quick fixes" that make her completely utterly useless.

[Aggh]

Don't worry, when pacemaker is finally nerfed (and it will be), you won't see any more complaints.

Yeah, we'll see even more.  It blows my mind how quickly some players manage to get themselves killed when they don't have a mesa on Draco to do most of the work.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Aggh

[Culaio]

 

Personally, I don't make a habit out of bashing on Mesa even if I dislike the place she's in and potential wasted, but yeah lots of frames are in as bad a spot. Saryn overall, Volt's ult, Ember's ult even if it's a slight guilty pleasure for Exterminates, Her 3 too, Excal's 3 even if it doesn't do it's job super well any more it's still a boring skill as well, Rhino stomp, pretty much any of the big aoe nukes that center on you. 

 

That said, yeah I want all of those reworked, and probably other skills not coming to mind at the second too, though to be fair Saryn is planned for a rework next I think? Ignoring that Valkyr's stated to get a lil something with her new skin as well. Hopefully it will touch on Miasma being uninteractive, though I wouldn't be surprised if it sadly doesn't touch on the problem. To be honest, I think Miasma is slightly less of an offender though since it's far more limited range, and promotes getting right into the middle of enemies first, then repeating. But her other skills are all in a terrible spot, at least Mesa can be used for things outside of ult.

 

But yeah anyways, I 100% don't want Mesa to get killed or anything, I just want her to be a bit different, more gunner, and more fun. And like you said, she's far less deserving of reworks than like... 8 other frames, looking at the wiki. So as far as resources go, I could tolerate her just staying as is until she can get a proper look at and some real attention, instead of some "quick fixes" that make her completely utterly useless.

 

The thing is how do you rework mesa ult  to keep its gunkata feeling ? there is no realistic way to give players ability to shot accuretly in all the direction WITHOUT looking at targets.

 

Only way to satisfy people who love gunkata aspect of ult and people who want more interactivty is my idea from few pages ago:  mesa ult having mobile(kinda like excalibur EB) and statonary(current ult of mesa) modes

[DxAdder]

A cooldown for Peace Maker is the best way to go BUT it's not the only ability that needs one, there are many frames that use it to balance them as well. i,e Trinity's Energy Vampire, Saryn's Miasma, Excalibur's Exalted Blade, Nova's Molecular Prime.

 

These and so many more could use cool down's to balance them. But you say cool down and they all run for the hills to protect there crutch ability.

[Sibernetika]

 

A cooldown for Peace Maker is the best way to go BUT it's not the only ability that needs one, there are many frames that use it to balance them as well. i,e Trinity's Energy Vampire, Saryn's Miasma, Excalibur's Exalted Blade, Nova's Molecular Prime.

 

These and so many more could use cool down's to balance them. But you say cool down and they all run for the hills to protect there crutch ability.

 

Scott himself Mentioned no cooldowns.

 

how about this, all channeling and ultimate abilities does not benefit from Fleeting experience, since its meant to reduce ability duration but channeling has no no duration, so the mod should not work for that