Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[Rakosta_Kai]

Year of Quality

 

Up to now they have only managed to catch only a few players with each of the different nerfs.

 

This one gets everyone...

 

 

That's what I call quality, right there....

 

Who's getting nerfed?

....Errybody gettin' nerfed.

[Fari]

People hate change. but at the same time, people complain that they want to remove the whole "3 mods are NEEDED" for every weapon.

Not the same people necessarily. I sure didn't complain about "3 necessary mods" because let's be honest, if you just take away all 3 'necessary' mods, there aren't 3 worthwhile mods to go in those spots anyways. Would it be nice to have no mods for your direct damage, and a bunch of utility choices? Maybe. But that's not what we have access to either way.

God knows all multishot getting killed is gonna do is ruin a lot of less viable gun's ability to do usable damage while giving them virtually nothing in return.

[SquirmyBurrito]

That helmet is still the same. 

 

The Drac went from being Chroma's default helmet to being his additional cosmetic. DE tried to act like the Drac had always been intended to be the optional extra helmet, not the default helmet, but it was obvious that this wasn't the case.

 

 community went on a tangent of many things. some were reverted.. other stayed the same. neutral.

 

Which goes to show you that community consensus can lead to things getting changed.

[ss4chris]

The problem most people are making (and I would say, incorrectly) is the sheer MAGNITUDE this change is in comparison to other changes as well as the way in which it has been presented.  What do I mean?  Well lets use a few past examples:

 

1) Nova's Molecular Prime: changing from instant application within all at range vs what it is now, the expanding 'globe'

  This change was pretty big, and there were quite a few that were unhappy with it (I was too, I won't lie) however you could still achieve the same results, just in a different way.  And yes, it needed to be changed, but what it was changed too was ultimately the same thing, albeit in a different manner.  Before it was about range and efficiency, now efficiency and duration.

 

2) Excalibur's Radial Javelin: Ignoring terrain to line of sight only

  Lots freaked about this too, though some because of a, "radial javelin has been like this for a LONG time but oh yeah, it wasn't intended, so we're going to massively change how the ability works now, ktksbye" explination.  While the new excal changes are nice, I believe the biggest issue with this change was more due to HOW it was presented as opposed to WHAT was presented.

 

In the two changes above, were people unhappy (ignoring the fact that this is the internet and that's how it works), yes.  Did people get over it?  Yes.  However part of this was that the actual implimentation of the change was, in the end, balanced.  Also, the scale of these changes were drops in the ocean compared to the proposed multishot change.  To change multishot is to change the way every weapon in this game works, and you can not change just multishot without something else having to give, be it base damages, the strength/weakness of enemies, the raw power of frames abilities, and so on.

 

Many complain about how multishot "has" to change because it "has" to be apart of every weapon build.  However with the way high level enemies are designed, multishot is required.  People have said earlier in the thread that they use the same number of bullets with and without multishot to kill high level enemies, and are there some like that?  Yes.  Weapons with very high base damages are not going to be affected as much.  But weapons that rely on multishot to overcome their very small base damage to increase their burst dps will (like grakata's).  The "it has to change because it HAS to be apart of every build" argument is as much a testament to how necissary it has become for endgame content/raw damage on higher level enemies as it is how much changing multishot workings will have on the game period.

 

However the second issue with the proposed multishot changes, and what has, as I read more forum posts about the topic, become the far worse underlying issue, is the HOW it has been presented.  If we had just been told, "we have been looking multishot mods, how it is used, and how the community impliments it in our game, and ways to possibly tinker with it so that players feel the way to have more options other than just multishot" I believe 90% of the crazyness wouldn't be happening.  We'd still know they're looking at multishot, but we wouldn't feel insulted or toyed with (purposefuly intended or not) with the initial response we were given of, "We've known this is an issue for years, but we're going to call it an unintended bug now and do massive drastic changes to a key component of the game with only limited and sketchy information".  Much like with excal's radial jav, the issue of HOW we were told about this exhasperates the issue of WHAT is being changed.

 

So we need to know more details before a better judgement can be given?  Yes.  Was the poll unneccisary?  No.  With the information we were given, the community is voicing it's concern (despite the trolls) about what they do know by what DE has told them.  There's nothing wrong with voicing your opinion as long as it's done reasonably.  However again, due to how embeded multishot is in the current system, to change it as drastically as mentioned without other balances will wreck how the game works.

 

On the point of the mastery system, I'm also concerned with what weapons are placed where, since as metioned previously, it can lock lower leveled players in only mediocre builds/damage brackets until much later, locking the amount of content they can do, but I'll reserve judgement until I see a more detailed layouton that.

 

And lastly, I don't think that just because a few people support something means that the others are automatically just sheeple or whatever, the minority can be right but it can also be wrong.

i disagree. no matter how the DEvs delivered how multishot was going to be changed the response/ effect would remain the same. People naturally panic  when change comes into their life.  sames goes for this game/ community. its expected.

i dont think the poll was necessary either cuz in the end DE does what they want/feel is the best  for us.

and your comparison to the 1st 2 examples to multishot are flawed in my opinion. something like coptering or stuff that impacts everyone not just excalibur and nova users would be better

Im okay with the upcoming multishot change. we gotta learn to adapt and accept change. thats all there is to it.

this is nothing new. games all go through/ patches/ changes. People come and go. people learn to adapt and play and stick with it. we'll see where we're at when the time comes. 

The Drac went from being Chroma's default helmet to being his additional cosmetic. DE tried to act like the Drac had always been intended to be the optional extra helmet, not the default helmet, but it was obvious that this wasn't the case.

 

 

Which goes to show you that community consensus can lead to things getting changed.

but at the same time also keep things the same in DE's favor. it just depends.

In the beginning DE was catering to the community. its nice to know they just dont lie down and play dead to the players entirely.

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

That helmet is still the same.

Ya true but it was gonna be the one he came with and now it's only 40 in the market instead of 75.

[Moghul]

If you add 120% multishot, will the weapon use 120% more ammo? How will it work for say, Tigris?

 

 

TBH I think they should do something else with multishot but not this.

[Deejudanne]

Well 18% yes sayers equals 100%. For the most game developers

[ToastyCosty]

Read the link.  If all they do is mess with ammo, it's 20-30% at most except on crit rifles.  If Multishot is made worthless, it's a 43% nerf on rifles, assuming you can't slot Piercing Caliber.  Nerf on shotguns and secondaries would be higher.

 

 

High level armoured Grineer, but you still need corrosive and viral builds on every weapon.

Wanting it to work for everything else is what I mean by Modframe.

 

 

i think the only thing we can do now is wait and hope for the best, the statement that DE made on mandatory mod is like saying "you have a car, but since every car has 4 wheels and we like build diversity, we will remove the 3rd and 4th wheels by replacing them with either  wooden boards or another set of functioning wheels but that will make your car explode after 100 meters, your choice"

 

also rebecca saying that no weapon in the game has ammo problems..... really? i hope she was joking

Edited September 8, 2015 by ToastyCosty

[kubbi]

What boggles my mind is why multishot? Why are they starting with them?

Damage mods like serration have been mentioned a lot longer and more of a problem than multishot. They're a bigger mandatory than multishot mods.

Damage mods would be a lot easier to fix too. Simly make it so that weapons gain more damage as they level up. Primary weapons would gain 165% damage on max level.

[--DSP--]

I think everybody is just overreacting and missing critical points. The big thing everyone is missing is the fact that the devs said they will buff weapons accordingly to the change on multishot. Another thing people miss is that up until enemy level 50+ multishot is not needed on most weapons so when the change hits using multishot will be for high level more or less.

 

The real issue with nerfing multishot is that right now we have nothing viable to replace multishot with, the best alternative would be crit chance but most weapons don't have the crit chance to be up to the task.

 

Personally this change means almost nothing for me since I don't use guns alot as I prefer Warframe abilities and melee but nerfing guns will open the way for more mods and builds and we shouldn't overreact since DE said they will rebalance weapons.

try rebalancing Twin Grakata. I can't think of a way.

[msterforks]

Damage 3.0 please.

[achromos]

To be fair, we don't know if DE has enemy scaling on their radar or not. It takes about the same time to kill a lv100 Corrupt Bombard just using a damage/status mod in place of Split Chamber, at least in my experience in the simulacrum. I'll wait and see what this change does.

 

People really don't take nightmare raids or raids in general into the equation when they say that nerfing multishot is a "good" thing.

[(XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE]

Loved this post.

 

I seen elsewhere, where someone mentioned weapons increasing in power and stats, similar to how our frames do as we progress.  But I am sure that is a slippery slope in itself.  I'd prefer some sort of proficiency list like borderlands used.

 

I cant say much, as I use the big three like everyone else, Serration, Split chamber, and Shred ( for fire rate and punch through).

 

I'd have to wonder, if they made weapons at max rank much more powerful than weapons at unranked, would it really be a problem?  If you were a high proficiency with Auto rifles, you'd benefit from faster reload speed, less recoil, more damage?, perhaps better status and critical chance as well?  It would make sense.  But that would shoehorn people into a particular slot though maybe?  Hard to use different weapons when each has a proficiency and if yours is low with say, snipers, but super high with battle rifles....then why not just use the Tiberon over the Vulkar, despite the Vulkar having a high critical and status, plus Syndicate mod versus the rather lame in comparison Tiberon.

 

Enemy scaling.  Absolutely.  I was trying to farm for Orokin cells earlier, on Saturn, in a survival with a friend.  We were untouchable for easily 20 minutes, and then suddenly, brick wall.  Literally.  Enemies went from taking a hit or two to go down, to being made of Unobtainium Adamantium alloy.

 

He was Excal, and didnt really have an issue because of their "excal" rework, mainly he stayed in Exalted Blade the entire match, which is a can of worms I wont get into here, and I was Ember Prime, running a efficiency build.  Not a lot of power, and very little duration, as I used primarily Accelerate and Fire Ball.  There I am running Burston Prime, with Gilded Truth, Hikou Prime, and Bo Prime.  That 20 minute wall reared it's ugly head and all of a sudden, nothing I had was doing much good besides the Burston with it's fairly high status chance, very efficient ammo usage, and that lovely Gas proc, and even then, it had gone from 2 waves ago, easily downing just about anything in a single burst, to now requiring and entire magazine to burn down a single Eximus, let alone a Eximus Bombard or Napalm.

 

Why such a brutal increase?  Who came up with the brilliant idea for this sort of thing?  I agree with OP about the CoD zombies mode, even though I only ever played it on World at war, and fell out of the CoD series shortly after that.

 

I'd say enemies should only get serious boost's every 20 levels.  A level 20 can easily put a level 30 frame down if you aren't careful.  A level 40 enemy can be absolutely brutal, especially for ones that have what I consider cheap mechanics, like the Bombard's heat seeking smart rockets.....and the Ballista's uncanny ability to Pro MLG Mt Dew sponsorship snipe you in mid air....or heaven forbid a group of Scorpions play "pass the Tenno" with their grappling hook ability.  The longest I have ever been in an endless mission was 45 minutes, and it was both exhilarating, and franticly horrible at the same time.  It was great because we were both using our powers to try and stem the endless tide of bodies pouring in through the door, yet trying to put enough damage down to kill them before they downed one of us.  But it was only our powers that were doing any damage at that point....our weapons had become utterly useless from the scaling.

 

Holy crap....I kinda got off track there in a way. 

 

I love this game.  I do.  I've easily spent more money on a game that is portrayed as a "Beta" despite being on update 17, and I mean, a lot of money.  Here and there, I have easily spent over 150 dollars.  Which is insane really....but....why not?  I enjoy it, yeah the Plat disappears fast, but I get a lot out of it.

 

The root problem that these mods help pave the way over, needs to be addressed.  Not simply nerfing, or "balancing" as they call it, a single mod that they left alone for over a year, just because everybody uses it.  EVERY weapon would have to be adjusted, and by the usual DE track record from my time cruising the forums, and playing, does not fill me with confidence that they aren't simply going to "nerfalance" the multishot mod's, making them and any weapon that uses them essentially worthless, because I have a gut feeling they aren't going to balance the game, or the weapons, or the scaling problem, only the mod, and in turn, that will only turn a grind fest, into a grindier fest....

 

I've gotten off track though, I think.

[TheBrsrkr]

well you go from having one mod required for your weapon to 2-3 mods.

.

No, you don't. You go from having 1 required mod to one optional mod.

[Illamonati]

Game isnt broken so why fix anything?

 

Mandatory mods are like an extension of the leveling and formaing process. It takes effort to grind them.

 

And grind is what Warframe is about.

[Feallike]

This game is layed out in a way where progression is needed and having a over all damage up is probably going to be a feature whether we like it or not. However, the way serration is laid out is wrong. 

 

 

Serration and Multishot don't need to be nerfed, or be skilled based they need changed. The multishot change DE is offering is by far the best change for their game because it gives major fall off while still keeping its overall benefit. Serration unlike that doesn't need to be changed to have a fall off it just needs a change in mechanics.

 

My proposition:
 

Increase Serrations polarity drain to 20 at max, have it only effect base damage, and have element mods NOT BE EFFECTED. This turns serration into a risk reward. You now have a mod that takes up a huge amount of your points for a damage up. You could forma until it fit your build but for newbies you won't be able to. You will have to choose. Put on the damage up, or put on two element mods. 

 

 

The games overall health balance and armor scaling needs to be fixed, but for Serration in itself this is the only way I can see them changing it while keepings its idea.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Feallike

[Illamonati]

Ammm I'm OK with the way things are.

 

5 formaing is just what you do if you play Warframe. Its an infinite grind game after all.

[jfhsanseiIII]

I'm reserving my opinion until DE makes actual changes to multi shot. Until then it's all just guessing on our part. It's a Shroedinger's cat. It's either a great change or a terrible one, or a pizza. Who knows.

[TheBrsrkr]

I'm reserving my opinion until DE makes actual changes to multi shot. Until then it's all just guessing on our part. It's a Shroedinger's cat. It's either a great change or a terrible one, or a pizza. Who knows.

Please be a pizza.

[Illamonati]

Instead of scaling back the power, they should simply start developing new and more challenging content. T5? Sentient Missions... whatever.

 

After doing 200+ T4 Missions Im honestly starting to get a tiny bit bored.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Illamonati

[(PSN)ArgusTheMan]

Im happy to see all of your opinions but I stay true to mine, if multishot was a bug why wasn't it fixed after it came out? It's practically a necessity for t3-4 towers because without your weapon under performs. If DE wanted mod diversity then why are elemental mods a thing? They force you into using them because you won't put out enough damage against a specific faction if you don't. Are they going to say that elemental mods are bugged next or need a change?

Honestly I respect all of your opinions but to put it simply, this will screw a lot of peoples builds over who invested time and possibly money to perfect and hone their builds to what they enjoy. Doing this change will make the ammo mutations mandatory for people who want to use the multishot mods. Weapons like the Hek will be seriously screwed because of the faction mod and hells chamber which make the weapon as awesome as it is it would basically be a worse Tigris.

I would be fine if they scaled up the enemies or changed all the weapons to a degree where multishot isn't just a fire rate mod but that would take far to long unless they half &#! the weapon changes.

[peekitea]

People would rage no natter what DE does. Add more weapons? Rage. New frame? Rage. Shotgun buff? Rage. The subject changes, but the words stay the same.

 

Man, why don't you stop raging about other people, and be more constructive?. I've seen your other posts, hardly any of them are constructive either, even when around constructive posts. 

[Arkhenbarn]

The problem does not reside only in the "mandatory" mods such as Multishot and Damage mods.

Even unmodded, weapons are not balanced. As mentioned above, a Grakata remains worse than a Soma Prime, even unmodded. Let's be honest, there are weapons that are just and only terrible... Even if you take these mods away, Boltor Prime and Soma Prime will still be considered the best weapons, because there are "superior" in comparison of the other weapons (even the base Soma is "superior" thanks to crits).

 

The root problem is unbalance, because sadly... EVERYTHING from the warframes, to weapons, mods, enemy scaling is unbalanced ! And s***, even the Warframes Prime aren't equal in the amount of buff they received compared to their original counterpart !

 

They would need an entire update to rebalance everything. Maybe U19 ? I can dream...

[Senser]

But you have to ask yourself: Do I really want a 12h Defense?

 

If it does scale as slowly as you are suggesting, it will mean that the first 6-8 HOURS will be boring as hell.

 

Not all players play for the shinies, some actually like a challenge. Currently, for my power level it is nice to do some easy 20m for PUG farming, do 40m if you happen to team up with veterans, or go 60m++ if I really want to challenge myself. If I need to plan for a 6 hour gaming marathon if I want a challenge, I would probably quit the game.

 

I am all for more diversity, and some weapons already allow for that. Take the Latron, you can mod for criticals (chance for insane damage, mediocre dmg without crits), or go full elemental (less spike damage, but more minimum damage). Take the Ignis, where the struggle between damage and utility (reach, firestorm, ammo mutation) is real.

 

Besides, I fully agree with your take on serration as soon as you have it maxed out. But for new players, it's a long way to a maxed serration, and I am not sure if it is a good idea to delete this way. As long as you are not drowning in money, cores, forma, and catalysts, this way is part of the game, part of your path to the legendary space ninja we all aspire to. So do not judge the situation from a veteran player view - I mean just look at all those posts about forma, 50% complain that it drops too seldom, 50% complain about it dropping to much. That is a kind of balance, too ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

[Gen.KiTeer]

The thing is, everyone on forums was screaming to fix mandatory mods; crying about serration, heavy caliber and multishot.

You asked for it. For weeks.

Now they try to fix it, and you guys cry about it.

It's like the guys who think Sancti Tigris needs a nerf. Everyone seems to ask for uneccessary nerfs lately.

And when that happens you are suddenly surprised.

 

I wish they would rather work on u18 than wasting ressources to rebalance every single weapon in the game to change multishot.

Edited September 8, 2015 by CruelMaiden