Major Weapon Balancing Problems... How Does Nobody Talk About This ?

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

For a start i know this is not call of duty and weapon balancing isn't that important but what i am about to say may change your opinion.

 

First thing is aksomati when you compare it to twin grakata there is one thing you should notice it has 990 less ammo pool which simply makes ammo mutation a must which waste a slot that u can use for a mod like hallow point which will up the DPS very much and since it already have less crit chance and less fire rate, twin grakatas have higher fire rate with even with creeping bulls-eye which increase its advantage of higher crit chance so why will u use aksomati anymore.

a simple fix is just to increase its ammo pool to at least 700 or above.

 

Second is Telos Boltor there is no reason on earth that makes anyone 6 forma this thing over the boltor prime so why would u even bother with it. my simple solution is giving it double the status chance and a small initiate punch through this will make it have a different role in game than just melting a t4 exterminate squad and also will lower the amount of forma needed to max it plus the initiate punch through and mag size will make using speed trigger a better option than shred so it compensate for the slower fire rate and projectile travel time.

and unlike vaykor hek telos boltor is not currenty build differently. 

 

Third is synoid gammacore i know this thing was overpowered when first buffed but making it useless now ? it needed a nerf yeah but currently it seriously need double the dmg and half the fire rate and larger ammo pool cause from god teir to wtf is this for i love the look of the weapon its function and its syndicate but its not usable now.

 

Fourth is dual raza seriously shouldn't the soma be a fast fire rate high crit low dmg weapon what is wrong with this thing stats its totally dominated by prisma dual cleavers or every other dual sword weapon. 

 

Fifth is silva and ageis it got nothing better than ack and brunt which got better dmg and can use breserker it needs double its dmg and longer sword.

 

all the weapons stated before there is no reason to spend time effort and resources to max these weapons and they totally need a change. and those are just 5 examples that are considered a famous good looking weapons but there are many other. i know not all weapons should be boltor prime and scindo prime but they need to have a role a reason to be used.

[elele]

Telos Boltor there is no reason on earth that makes anyone 6 forma this thing over the boltor prime 

 

You're laughably wrong. 

[road2toad]

I believe there should be some balance, which DE already does.  But there are some weapons that are just bad, and will stay bad.

Second is Telos Boltor there is no reason on earth that makes anyone 6 forma this thing over the boltor prime so why would u even bother with it. 

Ha. Ha. Ha.  Very wrong my good sir.

[StratosOmega]

I still don't know why Adhesive Blast was stealth nerfed (it was, I checked the past 3 patch notes).

[Tyrian3k]

Nobody's talking about it? That's a good one. People have been going on about weapon balance being one of Warframe's biggest problems for ages now.

[Vargras]

"How does nobody talk about this?"

 

We do. Daily. Weekly. Monthly. Yearly. It's an ongoing thing that DE is, unfortunately, pretty slow about fixing. Took forever for shotguns to get buffed, and snipers are getting buffed in U18.

[Vyrn]

I only really agree with Silva/Aegis being on this list. People have been calling for a buff since its release, but it just never got any love. It needs a little more oomph, whether it's just from more damage or from damage+crits or something else. It's just...kinda lacking.

 

I think the others are fine as they are, but tweaking numbers is welcome.

 

Also, a lot of people do talk about this. I saw a few threads earlier talking about similar things. Balance is definitely an issue.

 

You're laughably wrong. 

Ha. Ha. Ha.  Very wrong my good sir.

then enlighten him

 

Simply saying "lol you're wrong" is doing no good.

[DiosGX]

Adding a +1 to Silva and Aegis like everyone else does. I love that weapon and wish it had more practicality, but instead it's a struggle to make it borderline useful in most cases. If it had some special attribute in which every strike procced a small burn effect that could stack, I think its actual basic stats would be fine as they are. But as it is currently, it's just completely underwhelming.

 

 

then enlighten him

 

Simply saying "lol you're wrong" is doing no good.

^ This.

 

I actually have been hearing people citing the Telos Boltor as being superior to the Boltor Prime for the last two days, but I've heard nobody specify exactly how it attains that superior status. My basic guess is simply higher sustained DPS due to clip size, but if that's all it is, why can't people just say that?

 

To those blindly dumping on someone's head; such factually baseless statements will lead a reader into thinking you don't actually know what makes the Telos Boltor so good. So if that's the case, why would you harp on someone for it? If people's inaccurate statements are really so awful, correct them affably and educate the lurkers who may not know better in the process.

 

o3o

Edited September 7, 2015 by DiosGX

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

You're laughably wrong.

I believe there should be some balance, which DE already does.  But there are some weapons that are just bad, and will stay bad.

Ha. Ha. Ha.  Very wrong my good sir.

Lets say that telos boltor benifets are equal to the downsides do we need two very similar if not identical boltors or each with a different role in game which are build differently

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Second is Telos Boltor there is no reason on earth that makes anyone 6 forma this thing over the boltor prime so why would u even bother with it. my simple solution is giving it double the status chance and a small initiate punch through this will make it have a different role in game than just melting a t4 exterminate squad and also will lower the amount of forma needed to max it plus the initiate punch through and mag size will make using speed trigger a better option than shred so it compensate for the slower fire rate and projectile travel time.

and unlike vaykor hek telos boltor is not currenty build differently.

 

Lol wtf.

Telos Boltor and Boltor Prime are nearly equal in performance. Telos Boltor indeed has less DPS across the board (whopping ~20DPS sustained).

But the moment you put in pretty much any +firerate mod into both, sustained DPS are either the same or Telos Boltor is superior.

 

Even the toppest of all top builds have ~300DPS sustained difference, though Boltor Prime still wins when it comes to burst DPS and damage per shot.

 

Telos Boltor is a completely valid sidegrade to Boltor Prime, trading some killing potential up to a certain level (as, the moment something takes more than a second to kill, Telos Boltor will be flat out better) for syndicate effect having CC, damage and utility all at once.

[Ceryk]

There is going to be a major rebalance coming in the form of MR Requirements. MR requirements are going to be changed on weapons and it's highly likely that the Boltor Prime will require something like an MR 12 or higher to use in the future seeing as the Telos has an MR 12 requirement. Unless it really is inferior. I honestly can't stand the Boltor, so I don't pay much attention to those weapons. But they've stated the Boltor Prime, along with a huge number of other powerful weapons, will no longer have an MR requirement of 2 after they start making MR changes. MR will actually mean something here in the future in terms of the power you can wield.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Ceryk

[Xennocide420]

"How does nobody talk about this?"

 

We do. Daily. Weekly. Monthly. Yearly. It's an ongoing thing that DE is, unfortunately, pretty slow about fixing. Took forever for shotguns to get buffed, and snipers are getting buffed in U18.

 

 

The work of God is not an easy one. Do it yourself if it will go faster.

[Playford]

Weapon balance is constantly talked about, but actual balance changes are glacial. Take Supra for example, it took months of complaining for something to get done.

 

According to the most recent devstream, a lot of older content is being reviewed and analyzed for rebalancing. Now we just wait for the release of HL3.

[ThePredicament]

Uninformed thinking and/or lack of skill shouldn't be used as a measure for balancing.

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

Lol wtf.

Telos Boltor and Boltor Prime are nearly equal in performance. Telos Boltor indeed has less DPS across the board (whopping ~20DPS sustained).

But the moment you put in pretty much any +firerate mod into both, sustained DPS are either the same or Telos Boltor is superior.

 

Even the toppest of all top builds have ~300DPS sustained difference, though Boltor Prime still wins when it comes to burst DPS and damage per shot.

 

Telos Boltor is a completely valid sidegrade to Boltor Prime, trading some killing potential up to a certain level (as, the moment something takes more than a second to kill, Telos Boltor will be flat out better) for syndicate effect having CC, damage and utility all at once.

just like you said they are very similar the point its not by any means a weak weapon its just another boltor do u really need to spend the time and effort to have the same thing again its better to have another function to the weapon with higher mag it reloads less frequently with speed trigger and if its status is 15 procing viral and heat with 4 cp team in long run is better than using a boltor prime specially with heal proc every second u spend on a weapon like that is worth it

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

Uninformed thinking and/or lack of skill shouldn't be used as a measure for balancing.

can u please be more specific on what i am thinking and or doing wrong

[elele]

I actually have been hearing people citing the Telos Boltor as being superior to the Boltor Prime for the last two days, but I've heard nobody specify exactly how it attains that superior status. 

 

If you can't understand how useful the Truth effect is, and how irrelevant the little difference in DPS is, then nobody can help you understand. 

 

Do you need me to draw you a picture?

 

Fine. I'll give you a picture, posted in other whiny threads about Telos Boltor: 

 

 

 

But please, by all means, keep complaining. Then DE will buff Telos Boltor by tripling its damage and I'll be even happier. 

[FelisImpurrator]

If you can't understand how useful the Truth effect is, and how irrelevant the little difference in DPS is, then nobody can help you understand.

As far as I'm concerned, the problem with Telos Boltor isn't that it's weak.

 

The problem is that it's still another boltor. Two was enough and the Telos weapon could have been something more interesting. I think the OP wanted it to be changed to have different stat focus, and thus be modded differently and feel like not just another boltor, which I have to say I don't disagree with.

[bl4ckhunter]

the basic difference between the boltors is that one looks better and the other has a aoe effect that kills low level enemies once in a while, the point is that disregarding the (arguable) truth effect, the weapons are identical in build, purpose  and use, hell, they could've made every flavour of boltor, a critical weapon, a status weapon, a slow RoF heavy hitting automatic rifle, a pure Slash based one.

 

i mean everything and they made something that for all purposes it's exactly identical to the boltor prime, personally i am disappointed, hell the vay hek was still better despite the poor choice it is becouse it's actually totally different than the hek in build and play stile, but the telos boltor?nah, it's admittedly not bad while not better than the prime wich is good, but it's just rendundant and unneeded if you catch my drift.

 

it's just a boltor prime with a boltor skin an a syndicate effect in the end, it doesn't bring absolutely nothing new to the table, i hope it gets it's stats looked at becouse as it is and irrilevant weapon as long the boltor prime is easyer to get and even then, what's the point of two identical weapons?

 

the synoid gammacor is still good for me at least, with a fully ranked mutation i haven't been having ammo problems for as long as i have carrier alive  

Edited September 7, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[elele]

The problem is that it's still another boltor.

 

And that's a problem why? Soma P is another Soma. V Marelok is another Marelok. Telos Akbolto is another Akbolto. So what.

[FelisImpurrator]

And that's a problem why? Soma P is another Soma. V Marelok is another Marelok. Telos Akbolto is another Akbolto. So what.

We only have two variants of those and one is an upgrade. Not counting Skana Prime because it's mostly unobtainable, no other weapon has three variants. They should at least play differently, because if the Telos Boltor is better, now there's no reason to get the Boltor Prime.

[(PSN)Kosis181]

And that's a problem why? Soma P is another Soma. V Marelok is another Marelok. Telos Akbolto is another Akbolto. So what.

The problem he's getting at is that it's the THIRD boltor. Norm/prime/syndicate, all with exactly the same function and play style. Norm -> upgrade is what we expect, but adding in a side grade that is functionally the same? What they are asking for is to give it something to distinguish itself. The boltor line all mod and play identically, couldn't they have done something more interesting? Keep in mind that as a syndicate weapon, it would have the syndicate effect regardless, so couldn't they have picked a less vanilla weapon, that we have already leveled two of, and in the case of prime, forma'd to death?

At least, that's what I'm getting out of it. And I kinda have to agree:

Cernos: we have bows, but this is only the sixth weapon in that class, so its not too saturated. Does it get good proc chance? Something to set it apart? Bows are fun, but aside from impact focus, why should I use this and not a Paris or dread? Might not have been the best choice, but at least they have a stylish theme going for them.

Simulor: interesting weapon. I'm reserving judgment for a while, to see if/how they tweak it, but its a good choice. Starategic weapon for the primary weapon, facemelter for the secondary, its a good combo. Lots of AoE on this one, and a one of a kind mechanic. well two of a kind now...

Penta: who doesn't love explosions? Explode enough stuff and get a free explosion! Solid choice to keep it interesting, the only thing that plays like a penta is really another penta. Tonkor is similar, but more active, as its harder to suicide. This is fresh. Fresh-ish? Not boring, at any rate. Nobody really uses the penta enough to call this stagnant.

Tigris: interesting dual shot mechanic. Shotgun, which are kinda thin on the ground. Focus on hard hitting, close range and accurate gunplay. Zip in, shoot, shoot, zip out, reload. That's a nice change of pace.

Hek: another shotgun, this one focused on long range, high power takedowns. From what I've read/seen, the stat change shifts the play style a little. Less dmg per shot, but more in the clip with faster reload and RoF, allowing for faster gameplay at higher levels. Nice change, keeps it fresh and interesting.

Boltor/prime: plain vanilla assault rifle. Projectile, but high flight speed, so no biggie. Except at really long range, but meh. Innate punchthrough alternative, but only good for 1 extra enemy, really, so you might still want metal auger. No crit or proc worth building for, but high base dmg. Rainbow build the sucker for max dps. Nothing else makes sense. And none of that has changed for the new boltor. Yeah, it has some added functionality, buy the way you actively use and mod it? Exactly the same as the last two bottles.

[(PSN)Kosis181]

We only have two variants of those and one is an upgrade. Not counting Skana Prime because it's mostly unobtainable, no other weapon has three variants. They should at least play differently, because if the Telos Boltor is better, now there's no reason to get the Boltor Prime.

Gorgon, actually. Regular (unobtainable?), wraith and prisma. Latron, wraith and prime, as well. And you know what? They're boring as all heck too.

Latron(s) is(are) good enough to see at least some use, and the wraith varient is the best of the bunch. I can't actually recall the last time I saw someone use a gorgon of any kind, other than as mastery fodder.

[bl4ckhunter]

Gorgon, actually. Regular (unobtainable?), wraith and prisma. Latron, wraith and prime, as well. And you know what? They're boring as all heck too.

Latron(s) is(are) good enough to see at least some use, and the wraith varient is the best of the bunch. I can't actually recall the last time I saw someone use a gorgon of any kind, other than as mastery fodder.

i'd like to point out that they're ALL unobtainable except from trading or rare crates at this moment, the three boltors?not so much. the latron wraith has the same-ish dps if you average sustained and burst, it's only really better if you miss a lot.

Edited September 8, 2015 by bl4ckhunter

[FelisImpurrator]

*snip*

I will say...

 

-Cernos: Excellent Syndicate weapon. Absolutely worth the choice. Finally makes the holy IPS trinity of bows.

 

-Simulor: Apparently an amazing weapon, but my issue is that it steals Simaris' thunder to an extreme degree. Other than that, it is what the Simulor should have been.

 

-Penta: Straight upgrade. Safe, but hey, it makes the Penta better, and that's a good thing.

 

-Tigris: Amazing, but did the Tigris really need another buff? Screw it, it's amazingly pretty and that's worth everything.

 

-Hek: Redundant, but it's absolutely worth the Vay Hek pun, and it's an upgrade in nearly every respect. Texture is horrible though, hands down the worst of the syndicate primaries.

 

Also: My bad re: Gorgon and Latron. Forgot about those. But the extra variants are indeed redundant in that case anyway. (Although I don't have Lat Wraith or any Gorgons at the moment, they just don't sound sufficiently different.)

i'd like to point out that they're ALL unobtainable except from trading or rare crates at this moment, the three boltors?not so much. the latron wraith has the same-ish dps if you average sustained and burst, it's only really better if you miss a lot.

Rare crates no longer give Latron parts. So all the variants are unobtainable or trade. Originals are more accessible (Gorgon via login rewards) but kind of bad. Also, a miss buffer is actually a major usage factor, so that counts in the Wraith's favor, but they really shouldn't feel so samey.

Edited September 8, 2015 by FelisImpurrator