--IDWS--ArmsDealer Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 The real economy crisis that brought down Economic Powerhouse like mainland Chinese (I don't want to point a nation, but I'm forced to show people the actual example, sorry, I'm not racist) today is the market saturation; lots of people making super cheap products (yes, they have to make it cheap because their competitor made their product as cheap as possible) minus the actual demands to consume it. Now tell me u're going to do the same thing to Warframe (read; by implementing AH), these items are not even made, they were just dropping out of void like free stuff (hell 4x copies of free stuff for 4 members per void run) , now you want to sell it? Can you even do simple economy works? Or your mind just simply couldn't simulate how supplies and demands ACTUALLY works? Or are you just a kid with super-rich parents giving you allowance to buy prime acces? Sorry, every respectable economic advisor or practical trader will avoid using AH as solution to improve our current trading chat, it just won't work. They will come up with something (idk, probably a peddler shop in relay or sorta, set up by players) to balance out supply and demand as careful as possible, and that IS NOT AH. period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--IDWS--ArmsDealer Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 AH is pure cancer. The trading in warframe has a entrypoint that any AH lack completely. if we where to have one million people playing warframe and lets say 25% of them got more then one of a item they want to sell. now we would not have the entrypoint that trading has today so all 250000 people who have the item will post in on the AH congratulation now you have to basically undersell the item to ensure that someone buy it at all because your competing as a seller with over 200000 people. look at the price range of the item in DesecratedFlames picture. 15k to 40k if it where plat in warframe we could say its 15-40 plat. Congratulations that is the range of the items worth and you will be stuck to it forever if you go over 40 plat it will never be sold because everyone who has had basic math can see that 40 is more then 20 or 15 so they will never buy your item. Soon the informal price range like everyone other damn AH is every other mmo will become around the median of the price range so since 15+40= 55 and 55/2= 27.5 that item will forever have a base value of 27.5 go higher then that and you risk that nobody will buy your item. I stopped playing Diablo 3 for years because of the AH there. And no there is no huge difference betwwen warframe and diablo 3 when it comes to how it will end up. The devs on diablo 3 had to resort to tweak droprates down to below 1 promille just to ensure players didnt flood the AH. Nothing in Warframe is that rare. Lets take an example from diablo 2 and the contrast between single player and multiplayer. Getting one of the more sought after items in diablo 2 for example a ber rune was very hard in singleplayer and could not be done without a edit of the game files that make the bnet runewords work in singleplayer. but anyway the drop rate for a ber rune singleplayer or bnet was 0.000249% from Radament. You had to either be extremely lucky to get it to drop from that monster or kill a lot of monsters in a +78 or +79 area for a 0.000103% chance but on bnet due to how many more people where playing you where decked out in gear containing multiple ber runes within weeks if you where to start a new character. that was without a AH. Auction houses only make that problem larger. 1000000x 0.000240=24 so even at this drop rate at any time around 24 people would have this item up for sale with an AH system. now lets see the droprates in warframe is around 4 percent for the harder to find items 1000000x0.04=40000 so at any given time you would have 40000 of that item up for sale. Now unless someone delete that item for ducats or just plain credits its stays forever. So the supply can only go up over time never down unless DE themselves delete the item from the game. So all items will become worthless over time. U Sir, I back ur explanations, any day, let's tell this explanation to those kids who just got allowance from their parents to buy prime access. They simply can't imagine how hard it's to make actual economy works. +1 to you sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbsky1 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I wonder why no MMO worth its salt copies WF's oh so perfect method of trading and instead have either open markets like EvE online (arguably the best trading game out there) or auction houses. No other community bad mouths AH more than the WF one does I wonder why..... As for inflation, compared to one year ago prices on several primes have more than doubled. 1 year ago you could buy, Rhino P, Mag P, Frost P, Ember P the entire set for 15-20 p. Try that now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryouhi Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) I wonder why no MMO worth its salt copies WF's oh so perfect method of trading and instead have either open markets like EvE online (arguably the best trading game out there) or auction houses. No other community bad mouths AH more than the WF one does I wonder why..... As for inflation, compared to one year ago prices on several primes have more than doubled. 1 year ago you could buy, Rhino P, Mag P, Frost P, Ember P the entire set for 15-20 p. Try that now! Well Ember, Mag and Frost don't drop anymore so obviously they're sold more expensively Edited October 31, 2015 by Ryouhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadoon Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) I'd say the biggest problem with the current system is the lack of scalability of a trade chat system. If the game becomes more popular in the future, more people will want to trade, when more people want to trade the trade chat becomes more flooded, and if it is more flooded people are less able to read the messages. Well Ember, Mag and Frost don't drop anymore so obviously they're sold more expensively Doesn't explain rhino. U Sir, I back ur explanations, any day, let's tell this explanation to those kids who just got allowance from their parents to buy prime access. They simply can't imagine how hard it's to make actual economy works. +1 to you sir Economies work on supply and demand, and those work through mediums. The current system in place has a singular highly inefficient medium which is a constrictor of flow of supply to demand. Every time one of these has existed in the past it has been fixed to the best available techniques or higher manpower to increase that flow. Example: the silk road. Early on, very little traffic, but after the demand increased there was a constant flow of people in both directions trading to mitigate the effects of the delay of sending off someone to get something thousands of miles away and them returning. They eventually started creating boats that went around Africa to trade, and then you had the expeditions to the Americas which were a result of attempting to go the other way around to get there. The major difference between that and in game, is the ingame one is a massive artificial restriction. If they delimited trades from clan halls and made them individually capable, you would be able to be much more quickly trade with no load screens, no hosted areas or anything. Edited October 31, 2015 by Deadoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryouhi Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'd say the biggest problem with the current system is the lack of scalability of a trade chat system. If the game becomes more popular in the future, more people will want to trade, when more people want to trade the trade chat becomes more flooded, and if it is more flooded people are less able to read the messages. Doesn't explain rhino. Droptables can change, making parts more rare and valuable not sure if this happened to any of rhinos parts, but its a possiblity General Demand and Supply will also influence prices over time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armed_Monkey Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I am hoping one day we will be able to trade in a relay with pre-set things for sale. So you need to be online but people can just scroll the lists of stuff you and others have for sale, at a console or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyr-Umbra Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) I'd like a limited auction house. Something like "you get 1 trade slot per 5 mastery ranks". That way there would still be a place for trade as it now, but we would have an alternative as well. Edited October 31, 2015 by Snowman486 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper1991 Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 First let them give us a seperate WTB , WTS and WTT channels. I cant even spot the WTB's in the sea of WTS's in current trade chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadoon Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 First let them give us a seperate WTB , WTS and WTT channels. I cant even spot the WTB's in the sea of WTS's in current trade chat. What incentive for someone wanting to sell something would there be to be in the WTB or WTT channels? You would have to have all the channels open simultaneously, which defeats the purpose greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D00MBUNNY Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) In my opinion there just needs to be a way to post items for sale but it only when you are online. That both helps with being able to play and sell items without too much market flooding. It would also have the same trade limits so I post the number of trades I have. Similar to what Armed Monkey said but not locked to the relay, or just a single buy console for all selling\buying. Edited October 31, 2015 by D00MBUNNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadoon Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) In my opinion there just needs to be a way to post items for sale but it only when you are online. That both helps with being able to play and sell items without too much market flooding. It also have the same trade limits so I post the number of trades I have. That would encourage afking in the game(or semi-afking coming back every hour or so to confirm ingame somehow), taking up more server and client resources, and be pretty pointless pf a restriction overall really, especially if the sales were automated. Edited October 31, 2015 by Deadoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentFears Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I wonder why no MMO worth its salt copies WF's oh so perfect method of trading and instead have either open markets like EvE online (arguably the best trading game out there) or auction houses. No other community bad mouths AH more than the WF one does I wonder why..... As for inflation, compared to one year ago prices on several primes have more than doubled. 1 year ago you could buy, Rhino P, Mag P, Frost P, Ember P the entire set for 15-20 p. Try that now! For the same reason WF didnt coppy any othere MMO base concept of "Soul bound", "Character Bound", item only fitting the character that gets the item ect ect. And yes WoW have great AH and all that. But then you put some effort and wake your brain to the fact that - I have 20 frames and only one maxed Blind Rage that fits all of them. Get the litle difference between most MMO's out there and WF ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraccoDoom Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 For the same reason WF didnt coppy any othere MMO base concept of "Soul bound", "Character Bound", item only fitting the character that gets the item ect ect. And yes WoW have great AH and all that. But then you put some effort and wake your brain to the fact that - I have 20 frames and only one maxed Blind Rage that fits all of them. Get the litle difference between most MMO's out there and WF ? Really? and normal frames and weapons are what?? if not soul bound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentFears Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Really? and normal frames and weapons are what?? if not soul bound. Normal frames and weapons are to begin whit - non tradable. Mods and special weapons are not - aka the stuff we are actully trading. So again - how many Blind Rage mods do i need following my previus example. EDIT. Let me expand. Whit stuff i have said hundred times before. Most MMO's have large number of barier in them. First of all to farm "end game stuff" you need month/months of leveling. Then depending on the grind in the game - you need months of gear farming - and then you are able to finaly copeat whit othere players for resorse node's or mob spawns. In Warframe i can make a new account - and by the second day i can farm almost everything in the game - minus the Raid if i dont have a dedicated group. So in effect every mod and prime part is in my reach. Second part is - how the games are structured. In most MMO's a dungeon party will go in a dungeon and get one part per boss. One part for 4-30 players doing the instance. In Warframe - a party of 4 doing a mission and finding a rare mod will prodcue - 4 rare mods. THird. In Warframe most items can be used - then sold. Whit most important of them been MODS. Aka i have 20 frames and one Maxed BLind rage that fits them all. On top of all that - whenever i decide i can sell the mod i have been just using right till a second ago. Add to that the example of my party getting 4 of the item that drop in a mission - and you get a huge HUGE supplie - whit extreamly limited demand ( 20 frames = 1 mod). And lastly. Most MMO's are chocke full of consumables. And normaly this items are the most common to be seen in AH and most selling. A batch of Mitrhill ore in WoW will be sold instantly due to huge number of players wanting to max a craft. They will buy said ore - craft trash items - and move on. That brings a constant demand for Mithrill ore. Most players will aslo constantly farm herbs to produce potions. Potions are one time use. Aka you drink it - its gone. THe maths that went into the poltion - also are gone. In warframe we have nothing of the above. The only thing that is even remotly like normal MMO is our ability to trade prime parts - that are the build and gone from the pool. But again the problem arise that a party of 4 will produce 4 prime parts every time. Meaning that over time the supplie is so high - that demand falls miles back. So here an example of already huge supplie - no demand. I constantly buy 5 prime parts for 5 plat. This means there are prime parts right now that are considered junk due to huge supplie - that most players will give them for 1 plat even whitout AH. And thats the player that can be arsed whit trading tab. If we include the whole comunity whit an easy to use "press once and you are a trade" AH - i can only speculate how much worst is goning to get. And i expect i will have to do a similiar post tomorow or even tonight becouse someone have played some MMO whit totaly different core mechanic and decide - it will fit perfectly Warframe as well. Edited October 31, 2015 by SilentFears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostLacuna Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 I wonder why no MMO worth its salt copies WF's oh so perfect method of trading and instead have either open markets like EvE online (arguably the best trading game out there) or auction houses. No other community bad mouths AH more than the WF one does I wonder why..... As for inflation, compared to one year ago prices on several primes have more than doubled. 1 year ago you could buy, Rhino P, Mag P, Frost P, Ember P the entire set for 15-20 p. Try that now! Well lets see the diablo 3 action house was so bad the Devs had to forcibly shut it down to actually make people play their game i think that sets the bar pretty high on how S#&$ty it was. Since we are talking about mmos in general we must first establish what makes in your own words a "mmo worth its salt" name them and then we can discuss the matter in a better way. Also when supply is shut of as it has been with the frames you speak of and the demand still rises and new players and old start to feel the need to get those frames prices rise because the people who have spares can now set higher prices due to the fact that there is no way to make those parts drop in the game as of now. If 50 players have spares and 25 are sold the supply is cut in half but there will still be a demand for the frames yet sooner or later the supply will reach 0 unless DE release the frames again. FFS we knew this way before Wow was even a thing. Sadly its been so long since i played a MUD that i cant recall how the economy worked in those. But since they where purely text based i guess they didnt have the issue modern games have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadoon Posted October 31, 2015 Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Well lets see the diablo 3 action house was so bad the Devs had to forcibly shut it down to actually make people play their game i think that sets the bar pretty high on how S#&$ty it was. Since we are talking about mmos in general we must first establish what makes in your own words a "mmo worth its salt" name them and then we can discuss the matter in a better way. Also when supply is shut of as it has been with the frames you speak of and the demand still rises and new players and old start to feel the need to get those frames prices rise because the people who have spares can now set higher prices due to the fact that there is no way to make those parts drop in the game as of now. If 50 players have spares and 25 are sold the supply is cut in half but there will still be a demand for the frames yet sooner or later the supply will reach 0 unless DE release the frames again. FFS we knew this way before Wow was even a thing. Sadly its been so long since i played a MUD that i cant recall how the economy worked in those. But since they where purely text based i guess they didnt have the issue modern games have. Everquest early on had the same problem that current warframe does, trades were player- player only, there were spread out hubs and such, but it was a hassle to get things in methods other than doing it yourself. Then they implemented the bazaar, and items started to flow at a quick manner, to the point where the bazaar caused problems for higher end computers due to the player counts there. They later on introduced a less server and client intensive system that is still around. It still isn't a pure UI type system, but it isn't the monstrosity that the original incarnation was. Edited October 31, 2015 by Deadoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makinar Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 (edited) https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/545308-warframe-needs-a-auction-house/ https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/501865-auction-house-in-warframe-in-game/ https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/541541-auction-service/ https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/530547-as-an-online-game-why-not-auction-house%EF%BC%9F/ literally just searched "auction". did we really need another one? No to auction house,yes to ``Tradechat 2.0``. Edited November 1, 2015 by Makinar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t0kas Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Just got beck to the game... Been away for over 1 year or so. And wanted to make my ember prime, misssed out on the system BP so thought i go and farm it. But no can do anymore. So went to the trade channel to see if someone wanted to trade it to me.... *my post *wall of text *wall of text *wall of text *wall of text *wall of text *wall of text So yes to some kind of AH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryouhi Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Normal frames and weapons are to begin whit - non tradable. Mods and special weapons are not - aka the stuff we are actully trading. So again - how many Blind Rage mods do i need following my previus example. EDIT. Let me expand. Whit stuff i have said hundred times before. Most MMO's have large number of barier in them. First of all to farm "end game stuff" you need month/months of leveling. Then depending on the grind in the game - you need months of gear farming - and then you are able to finaly copeat whit othere players for resorse node's or mob spawns. In Warframe i can make a new account - and by the second day i can farm almost everything in the game - minus the Raid if i dont have a dedicated group. So in effect every mod and prime part is in my reach. Second part is - how the games are structured. In most MMO's a dungeon party will go in a dungeon and get one part per boss. One part for 4-30 players doing the instance. In Warframe - a party of 4 doing a mission and finding a rare mod will prodcue - 4 rare mods. THird. In Warframe most items can be used - then sold. Whit most important of them been MODS. Aka i have 20 frames and one Maxed BLind rage that fits them all. On top of all that - whenever i decide i can sell the mod i have been just using right till a second ago. Add to that the example of my party getting 4 of the item that drop in a mission - and you get a huge HUGE supplie - whit extreamly limited demand ( 20 frames = 1 mod). And lastly. Most MMO's are chocke full of consumables. And normaly this items are the most common to be seen in AH and most selling. A batch of Mitrhill ore in WoW will be sold instantly due to huge number of players wanting to max a craft. They will buy said ore - craft trash items - and move on. That brings a constant demand for Mithrill ore. Most players will aslo constantly farm herbs to produce potions. Potions are one time use. Aka you drink it - its gone. THe maths that went into the poltion - also are gone. In warframe we have nothing of the above. The only thing that is even remotly like normal MMO is our ability to trade prime parts - that are the build and gone from the pool. But again the problem arise that a party of 4 will produce 4 prime parts every time. Meaning that over time the supplie is so high - that demand falls miles back. So here an example of already huge supplie - no demand. I constantly buy 5 prime parts for 5 plat. This means there are prime parts right now that are considered junk due to huge supplie - that most players will give them for 1 plat even whitout AH. And thats the player that can be arsed whit trading tab. If we include the whole comunity whit an easy to use "press once and you are a trade" AH - i can only speculate how much worst is goning to get. And i expect i will have to do a similiar post tomorow or even tonight becouse someone have played some MMO whit totaly different core mechanic and decide - it will fit perfectly Warframe as well. pretty much this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deidaku Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 1. No auction houses. 2. You not being able to sell something is a matter of your personal luck and skill. Do not try to sell something that no one wants to buy- and you will have no issues. Most stuff everyone already has or does not want. 3. NO AUCTION HOUSES. They kill economies. It's thins kind of post that annoys me It shouldn't be about LUCK , we already ahve enough RNG in the game to drop the parts in the first place , we don't need even more randomness to sell them!!!!!!!!! 3. GW2 seem to be doing pretty well See what happened yesterday , chat down , no trading , we need an auction house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Just realized that this is a megathread 0.O Anyways,I'd be fine with either an auction house or chat 2.0.Its sometimes gets annoying when you type something and most people won't see what you wrote.Even the chat cool down isn't that helpful IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostLacuna Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Everquest early on had the same problem that current warframe does, trades were player- player only, there were spread out hubs and such, but it was a hassle to get things in methods other than doing it yourself. Then they implemented the bazaar, and items started to flow at a quick manner, to the point where the bazaar caused problems for higher end computers due to the player counts there. They later on introduced a less server and client intensive system that is still around. It still isn't a pure UI type system, but it isn't the monstrosity that the original incarnation was. True It did but then again i could live with that. I stopped playing before the bazaar or closely after so never saw how the impact was myself. I played mostly korean or other none western mmos for years after that. In them most of the AH restricted trade to the point where even be best raid gear where worthless. Since you had millions selling the same gear most of the time it was not even worth selling them since if you wanted it sold fast you had to cut your price by half to even have a chance to get it sold. i prefer a better interface for player player trading vs a AH all days of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratego89 Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 (edited) It's thins kind of post that annoys me It shouldn't be about LUCK , we already ahve enough RNG in the game to drop the parts in the first place , we don't need even more randomness to sell them!!!!!!!!! 3. GW2 seem to be doing pretty well See what happened yesterday , chat down , no trading , we need an auction house 1. The only luck involved is someone being on in your timezone- this can be overrided by going to other servers to trade, which many GOOD traders do. The rest is all skill and knowing what you need to make a successful trade. People are NEVER going to buy certain things- they have no need for it, that's how it is. The only way you can guarantee you'll never sell something is by constantly trying to sell things noone wants. (which this lack of demand is EXACTLY why an auction house would fail in warframe. There's thousands of copies of stuff everyone already has, and noone to buy most of the stuff as it is. If everything they still needed popped up on auction house, buyers for EVERYTHING would run out within 2 weeks, and noone would ever make a sale ever again except to the occasional newbie, for a low price because they have to compete. GG, no Re, economy dies. Get it now?). 2. What happened to #2? 3. You cannot compare one game's economy to another. It does not work. The economies are completely different between games. In warframe, people only need each thing ONE time (except maybe the occasional spare mod) to build it and have it forever. In other games- things you trade for tend to be needed over and over and over. In warframe, there is EXTREMELY LIMITED demand, and an overabundant supply. You need a very very delicate balance of supply and demand for an auction house to work- warframe does not have the balance it needs. In other games, there is usually an endless demand with a limited supply. It's harder to get things in general and everyone needs it- so the balance needed for an auction house to be potentially successful exists. Stressing this again- you CANNOT say "this worked here/this failed here so this will work here/fail here too" for two COMPLETELY different things. It doesn't... work... 4. Chat going down does NOT happen often. It is NOT intended. It didn't just shut down trading, it shut down basically EVERYTHING in the game. It is already fixed. Using that as an example for "why we need an auction house (to kill our economy...)" is an asinine statement at it's finest. Edited November 1, 2015 by Stratego89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brokenrune Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 1. The only luck involved is someone being on in your timezone- this can be overrided by going to other servers to trade, which many GOOD traders do. The rest is all skill and knowing what you need to make a successful trade. People are NEVER going to buy certain things- they have no need for it, that's how it is. The only way you can guarantee you'll never sell something is by constantly trying to sell things noone wants. (which this lack of demand is EXACTLY why an auction house would fail in warframe. There's thousands of copies of stuff everyone already has, and noone to buy most of the stuff as it is. If everything they still needed popped up on auction house, buyers for EVERYTHING would run out within 2 weeks, and noone would ever make a sale ever again except to the occasional newbie, for a low price because they have to compete. GG, no Re, economy dies. Get it now?). 2. What happened to #2? 3. You cannot compare one game's economy to another. It does not work. The economies are completely different between games. In warframe, people only need each thing ONE time (except maybe the occasional spare mod) to build it and have it forever. In other games- things you trade for tend to be needed over and over and over. In warframe, there is EXTREMELY LIMITED demand, and an overabundant supply. You need a very very delicate balance of supply and demand for an auction house to work- warframe does not have the balance it needs. In other games, there is usually an endless demand with a limited supply. It's harder to get things in general and everyone needs it- so the balance needed for an auction house to be potentially successful exists. Stressing this again- you CANNOT say "this worked here/this failed here so this will work here/fail here too" for two COMPLETELY different things. It doesn't... work... 4. Chat going down does NOT happen often. It is NOT intended. It didn't just shut down trading, it shut down basically EVERYTHING in the game. It is already fixed. Using that as an example for "why we need an auction house (to kill our economy...)" is an asinine statement at it's finest. The problem is not the auction house, the problem is the way that the warframe economy use it's resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now