Archistopheles Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I've said my peace, Flowen. I also partially responded to you above your latest post. Best of luck to you regarding potato alerts :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowen231 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I've said my peace, Flowen. I also partially responded to you above your latest post. Best of luck to you regarding potato alerts :) NOOOO. You can't do this! My god, I don't usually see people leave a topic peacefully on the forums. And it's actually really refreshing. TY for the words of luck, and although we disagreed, I appreciate your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 as i've said in the past, legitimately difficult Missions rewarding things like Potatoes is a good option. allowing Players to prove that they should get them for free. Events and things of that sort have a tendency to reward them, but they aren't usually... difficult. things which are legitimately difficult, i see as a perfect place to reward such types of items. things which challenge the Player to prove they're worth their salt and have a good grasp of the game's mechanics and capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthAria Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 They don't even have to replace it. Buying catalysts/reactors from the shop would still have a function even if they were farmable, just like buying Forma does. I should clarify, on that note, that this by no means qualifies (in my mind, at least) as a top-of-the-list concern. As I said, there's a workaround available now, and while I disagree on principle with it being the de facto solution, it does the job for now and I don't object to its existence. My point with this thread wasn't to say that DE needs to change it now; just that, as somebody who's watched Warframe grow for ~2.5 years and watched the dev team slowly tackle all the older, clunkier holdovers from its inception, I felt this was one for The List. This just felt like a good time; they talked about getting rid of paid revives on the devstream last week, there's a pretty massive overhaul coming to the star chart (and by extension a rearrangement of how we acquire stuff in-game), and the relative scarcity of catalysts/reactors is a topic that's been on my mind lately after discussing it with friends who are newer to the game. I've seen enough of DE to know (or at least believe) they're not acting out of greed or maliciousness or anything like that. The whole reason I started this thread in the first place (I usually don't do forum posts of much substance) is because I feel like they're actually paying attention. I don't begrudge them for not stamping out every holdover ever from the days when Warframe was much smaller (and had fewer ways to monetize itself); they're a relatively small team and they do the best they can. I just wanted to make sure they're aware. I do appreciate you guys keeping it civil, even with disagreements flying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRgisIocus Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 So why not just cut out the middleman? Because it would make no difference. Its extra work that would amount to nothing. Farm a potato with a drop chance of 1-2% (DE likes really low drop chances) or farm the void for random parts and trade, then buy a potato guaranteed? I'll go farm the void thank you very much. I know people who consistently buy forma from the market and those drop so much its annoying, why farm something that might take you 100 runs without ever seeing it drop? I know the community just fine, I know they won't like it. Point is; Farmable = good, non farmable = bad. I've played a game where end game gear literally had a drop rate of 1/12604 from an uncommon enemy, and that's just fine, because you can actively farm it. And no, farming parts to trade isn't farming for a reactor/catalyst, that's just farming for plat, not farming for a specific thing without involving a real money system. Farming for plat is still farming which was what I wrote. It would also be faster/more reliable than farming the actual potato, knowing DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper3 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I have no idea how you so completely misinterpreted my post. If you want to see the assertions I made, they're contained in the post you responded to. I never claimed anything remotely similar to what you've written here, and your false assertion is absolutely ridiculous. Please try to put a little more effort into honestly interpreting posts when you're reading them. LMAO Man, I love the internet indignation and condescension when fallacies and contradictory points are pointed out. Perhaps you did not write what you are thinking, I did read your post and can only respond to what you wrote, not what you are thinking. I can also only deal with reality, not whatever fictional presumed state of affairs your point of view shows you. You claimed that you can only play this game in a group as a new player because new players are so weak. (False) You then said that you have to be extra powerful and need potato's to even keep up with that group you joined. Those statements are right there in your post, I did not twist or contort them in anyway, those are your exact words. The logical understanding of your statements are that; - New players are weak - Groups are all uber powerful people better than new players There is no other logical understanding of your statements, and I could care less about any illogical, random and rambling diatribes to twist reality to make your point. I pointed out the logical flaw with this by pointing out that new players will generally (unless they go out of their way to find high level players by asking for a taxi or a key host) will be playing with other players of the same rough level as the content is locked by advancement. It is highly unlikely to go to run the mission on Linea, Venus and find the group full of 4 forma, double potato Nova's and Trinity's to where you're "weak" no potato frame is a hindrance. What is infinitely more likely is the group will be other new players with similarly powered equipment as you have. In the off chance you find a group of new players who are full of Forma and Potato's they did so by A) paying real money for them or B) selling items they did the grind for and bought them that way. All of those methods are also available to YOU, so where is the issue? If you are taxi'ing to higher level content than you can access on your own, that is your issue and is completely pointless to the issue. The fact that a new player can't survive on Ceres doesn't mean DE should make Ceres easier, or hand out free upgrades so they can. Your statements are flawed, I attempted to point this out so that you could understand that what you thought was necessary really wasn't. I did this to help you understand that what you are tearing your hair out about is not something you need to be so concerned about. The hope would be that you would then be able to enjoy the game more. Ultimately the power to reevaluate what you believe by examining other points of view and facts rests solely with you. If you instead feel that attacking me with ad hominem statements and clinging to the belief that potatoes are a requirement to enjoy this game, that's your deal and it will only bring you frustration. It is no skin off my nose if you prefer to be angry at some assumed injustice. I have gone quite far and had a lot of fun in this game playing solo with only one potato'ed frame and two potato'd weapons, none of which were bought from the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevlessa Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 LMAO Man, I love the internet indignation and condescension when fallacies and contradictory points are pointed out. Perhaps you did not write what you are thinking, I did read your post and can only respond to what you wrote, not what you are thinking. I can also only deal with reality, not whatever fictional presumed state of affairs your point of view shows you. This is where I stopped reading and added you to my ignore list. For you to misinterpret and misrepresent me is one thing. People make mistakes. For you to then defend your terrible mistakes while insulting me? That's not a sign of a person worth interacting with, so I'll never make the mistake of doing so again. Good day to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buttaface Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Still not one reasonable rationale given for why potatoes should not be in the loot tables somewhere... like 100% of the rest of the noncosmetic items in the game. Lots of straw man, derail and irrelevance. Saying "they haven't done it yet" could be said about 1000 other needed changes in the game, and is utterly irrelevant. Saying "just trade prime parts for plat" is irrelevant and nonresponsive. Saying "you don't need them to enjoy the game" is absurd. Technically, you -could- play the entire game's content on an excal with a Mk 1 Braton, but that's not why players keep playing. They keep playing because of variety in weaponry and playstyle. All the rest of the counter points are straw man and not even remotely responsive to OP's original and subsequent reasonable posts. So, once again, what makes potatoes (or inventory slots) any different than the 100% of everything else in the game that drops in the game from static content? Nothing, no difference whatsoever. Potatoes and inventory slots should drop -somewhere- ingame other than in arbitrary alerts. Edited October 23, 2015 by Buttaface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthAria Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Because it would make no difference. Its extra work that would amount to nothing. Farm a potato with a drop chance of 1-2% (DE likes really low drop chances) or farm the void for random parts and trade, then buy a potato guaranteed? I'll go farm the void thank you very much. I know people who consistently buy forma from the market and those drop so much its annoying, why farm something that might take you 100 runs without ever seeing it drop? Your scenario hinges on a very specific implementation, namely that catalyst/reactors would A) have a very low drop chance, and B) would not be found in the void. I (and I suspect many others as well) come across Forma more often than not as a byproduct of hunting for other things, like prime parts or mods; something similar might (or might not) happen with catalysts and reactors, depending on DE's implementation. Assuming the worst for the sake of bolstering your argument is...well, exactly what it sounds like. Besides that, the answer to "why farm it?" is the same as it is for any other object of value: it depends. I've given some that I think are reasonable: bad luck, needing drops for yourself, preference for the solo life, impatience for trading, etc. Personally, while I've had some good experiences with trading, I'd rather be able to just go get stuff myself because it gives me an excuse to get in and play the game. Your mileage may vary, but adding options doesn't really hurt anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatose Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 So, once again, what makes potatoes (or inventory slots) any different than the 100% of everything else in the game that drops in the game from static content Not 100%. Vauban, and auras are also alert only. It works there, to say nothing of event items, tac alerts and Barok's inventory. Not everything is farmable. This is OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinthAria Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Not 100%. Vauban, and auras are also alert only. It works there, to say nothing of event items, tac alerts and Barok's inventory. Not everything is farmable. This is OK. I'd love for Vauban and aura mods to be obtainable somewhere else as well. Event/tac alert/void trader items are less critical because in nearly all cases they're upgraded versions of an item that has a regular counterpart. More than that, they're scheduled, not random, and in the case of the former two also typically both announced in advance as well as available for a significant length of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buttaface Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) The regular alert system in the game IS static content with even Vauban alerts regular (I got him within a month of starting to play and who knows how many alerts I missed during that time?), same with the auras... devstream scheduled potato and special potato alerts are not static content. Also, more irrelevance because you only need a Vauban piece or aura mod -once-; you need several, if not many potatoes to fully enjoy the game. Not even a good try, and still no rationale as to why potatoes (and inventory slots) should be any different from any of the other... to reemphasize... 100% of the rest of the noncosmetic content of the game that drop -somewhere- in the game. They aren't any different, and should drop ingame. "That's OK" doesn't cut it. Edited October 23, 2015 by Buttaface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatose Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 You *do* realize that taters are in the regular alert cycle, right? The regular alert system in the game IS static content with even Vauban alerts regular (I got him within a month of starting to play and who knows how many alerts I missed during that time?), same with the auras... devstream scheduled potato and special potato alerts are not static content. Also, more irrelevance because you only need a Vauban piece or aura mod -once-; you need several, if not many potatoes to fully enjoy the game. Not even a good try, and still no rationale as to why potatoes (and inventory slots) should be any different from any of the other... to reemphasize... 100% of the rest of the noncosmetic content of the game that drop -somewhere- in the game. They aren't any different, and should drop ingame. "That's OK" doesn't cut it. Only, as noted, it's *not* 100%. Hasn't been for a very, very long time, and repeating the false claim doesn't make it any less false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loswaith Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 ...snip... Keep in mind there are just some parts of the game you aren't meant to solo. In most cases 1 or 2 additional players turns it from impossible to achievable, while 4 will make it trivial. Actually the game is easier to play at the low end now than it was previously as many choke missions aren't on the main progression path any longer through planets. I've even soloed tier 4 missions with gear without catalysts/reactors. Sure its not easy but it can be done. The right mods for your 30 mod points are far more useful than any build with 60 mod points. Yet still I wouldn't expect intermediate players to even attempt Tier 4 void solo. Tier 2 is however easy enough with decent mods, and I'd be surprised if most players cant do them solo using gear without catalysts, reactors or even forma. You dont need to drop wads of cash on the game. What you need to do is be a bit choosy on what you put your upgrades (forma, catalysts and reactors) into, because after a while some of these you will never use again. As to dojos, they are a long term goal that is meant to be achieved by a group of players. Sure you can build one solo (this is a good thing) but that was never their intent, and thus won't ever be an easy task for a newer player in the short term of playing without dedicated grinding to do so. ... I'm a veteran player (since U7) and I'm completely out of reactors and catalysts. ... I have also been playing since U7, and have 20+ of both sitting unused. The trick is to not throw them in every bit of gear you have (i mention that to just about every new player too). Most gear, even if you have it you just wont use most of the time, so not everything needs a catalyst or reactor. That said every frame I own has a reactor, and I still have over 20 spare, and I have bought very few of them. If the solution to acquiring a gameplay-critical item in a free-to-play model is "buy it with real money," then you've failed at creating a good free-to-play model. So why not just cut out the middleman? Actually your incorrect, 'free to play' is where you are able to play the game without paying for it in the first place, not have everything you want in the game for free. Warframe can easily be played without ever paying for things, especially now with trading, including platinum. Even paying just $20 for some plat (a reasonably cheap price for a game) will let you play it for as long as you like. However that is anything but needed to actually play the game if you are patient. ... Reactor and catalyst BPs don't require time to obtain, they require luck. If you could farm them, you could put all of your time into doing so, or have the option to just buy them. Right now, buying them through your (or someone else's) plat is the only reliable means of getting these. ... Actually there is no luck involved at all. 100% chance every 2 weeks after a dev stream that either a catalyst or reactor (and sometimes both) will be available. Just about anyone can schedule 30 minutes (at maximum), on the same day every 2 weeks. If you cant schedule that, make a reasonable argument to the DEvelopers to make it last longer than 24 hours. The gifts of the lotus used to actually be 12 hours long until myself and others explained to DE that 24 hours would be more beneficial due to time zones. I don't care for trading at all myself, but it is still an option. Thus you can actually grind to get platinum for Catalysts, Reactors or slots. Sure you are not grinding for them directly, but then the end result is what you want in either case. I'd love for Vauban and aura mods to be obtainable somewhere else as well. Event/tac alert/void trader items are less critical because in nearly all cases they're upgraded versions of an item that has a regular counterpart. More than that, they're scheduled, not random, and in the case of the former two also typically both announced in advance as well as available for a significant length of time. There are scheduled catalyst/reactor rewards as well, they happen after every dev stream, which occur about every two weeks. All that said I'm not against having players get rewarded with catalysts, reactors or slots, as once off things (preferably tied to mastery rank up rewards, so it can be customised to certain player types), being able to farm them however just leads to a glut of them in the hands of veterans and not that obtainable by newer players as can be seen with forma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowen231 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Actually there is no luck involved at all. 100% chance every 2 weeks after a dev stream that either a catalyst or reactor (and sometimes both) will be available. Just about anyone can schedule 30 minutes (at maximum), on the same day every 2 weeks. If you cant schedule that, make a reasonable argument to the DEvelopers to make it last longer than 24 hours. The gifts of the lotus used to actually be 12 hours long until myself and others explained to DE that 24 hours would be more beneficial due to time zones. As I've explained before, not everybody is available to play at that time. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad you pitched the time extension idea, but that's a bandaid. It's still a non cosmetic item that heavily affects gameplay, and should be somehow farmable at all times. That in itself is a flaw when it comes to F2P games and that is the bottom line. Whether DE decides to change something or not (probably won't happen) is up to them, but you can't just ignore the fact that this is a thing or that it's wrong. Make all of the excuses you want, but it IS a thing, and it IS wrong by ideal f2p standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Uuuh... dude, that's a free to play game in which the devs give you from time to time a free to do alert that grant you a catalyst / reactor. First they are cheap, 20 plat acquired from trading is easy. And second, it's one of the ONLY thing you need from the market and you can still get some for free. No for the idea, and i assume DE won't ever do that. They already give enough of them for free. We haven't had a reactor for months. That pretty lame. It really should alternate so we have one reactor and one catalyst a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loswaith Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 As I've explained before, not everybody is available to play at that time. And don't get me wrong, I'm glad you pitched the time extension idea, but that's a bandaid. It's still a non cosmetic item that heavily affects gameplay, and should be somehow farmable at all times. That in itself is a flaw when it comes to F2P games and that is the bottom line. Whether DE decides to change something or not (probably won't happen) is up to them, but you can't just ignore the fact that this is a thing or that it's wrong. Make all of the excuses you want, but it IS a thing, and it IS wrong by ideal f2p standards. All you need it 30 minutes (most times not even that) every 2 weeks to actually catch the gift somewhere in the 24 hour block. I know players that work 12 hour shifts that day that are able to make time to catch them (that is all they do in warframe that day though). Also just about every free to play game has something you cant get without someone paying for it thus able to get things indirectly (Warframe's approach). Personally I have yet to see one that you don't have to. Thus by your standards just about every 'free to play' game in existence is wrong. Feel free to mention those that are not 'wrong', I'm sure many players would be interested. They are also effectively are 'farmable at all times' as many players have mentioned, sure not directly, but then that is you preventing it if you don't want to trade, not the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowen231 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 All you need it 30 minutes (most times not even that) every 2 weeks to actually catch the gift somewhere in the 24 hour block. I know players that work 12 hour shifts that day that are able to make time to catch them (that is all they do in warframe that day though). Also just about every free to play game has something you cant get without someone paying for it thus able to get things indirectly (Warframe's approach). Personally I have yet to see one that you don't have to. Thus by your standards just about every 'free to play' game in existence is wrong. Feel free to mention those that are not 'wrong', I'm sure many players would be interested. They are also effectively are 'farmable at all times' as many players have mentioned, sure not directly, but then that is you preventing it if you don't want to trade, not the game. Again, not everyone can make it to those all of the time because life exists believe it or not, which makes it inconsistent. And actually, while we're on the subject. Why is it OK to have a random free one, but wrong to have a regular farmable kind? I'd like to hear thoughts on that, because most arguments say that it's OK to get gifts from the lotus, but it would be wrong to farm them yourselves. Seems kind of backwards to me. That's all fine and dandy, that doesn't mean it's right. It doesn't matter how many games do the same thing. Point still stands, in the ideal f2p model, players should be able to farm whatever they need in some form so long as it pertains to gameplay. And no, everybody has been mentioning that you can farm things to trade for plat which can be used to get taters. Forma are farmable, resources are farmable, frames are farmable, prime parts are farmable. Taters are not farmable. They simply are not, and saying that they are is literally a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACorpse Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) We haven't had a reactor for months. That pretty lame. It really should alternate so we have one reactor and one catalyst a month. Just the alerts, just during October, 2 reactors and 3 catalysts. Now I know they're often when you may be asleep or at work, but don't act like there haven't been any just because you weren't around to see them. WF Alerts/Artifacts @WFAlertsMods Oct 16 Eurasia (Earth) | Deception (Grineer) | Network Vulnerability Detected | Starts in 4m | 127m | 3,500cr - Orokin Reactor Blueprint WF Alerts/Artifacts @WFAlertsMods Oct 16 Amalthea (Jupiter) | Mobile Defense (Corpus) | Gift From The Lotus | Starts in 3m | 1440m | 4,200cr - Orokin Catalyst Blueprint WF Alerts/Artifacts @WFAlertsMods Oct 15 E Gate (Venus) | Extermination (Corpus) | Enemy Shock Troops Located | Starts in 3m | 76m | 4,900cr - Orokin Catalyst Blueprint WF Alerts/Artifacts @WFAlertsMods Oct 6 Alator (Mars) | Extermination (Corpus) | Enemy Escorts Located | Starts in 3m | 74m | 4,900cr - Orokin Reactor Blueprint WF Alerts/Artifacts @WFAlertsMods Oct 4 Pacific (Earth) | Survival (Grineer) | Enemy Tech Discovered | Starts in 4m | 96m | 4,100cr - Orokin Catalyst Blueprint Edit: as a bonus, see the planets they were on? Low to mid level only. None out of reach of newbies. Edited October 23, 2015 by ACorpse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichouette Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Dude you didn't see but this guy is on PS4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERROR1018 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 In this topic, we see a player decide to turn their back on the valid ingame method of directly obtaining a piece of gear (alerts, a.k.a. the same place you have to go to get Vauban -- except you never get told when Vauban will be scheduled, vs. the 24h long GotL), turn their back on the entire player market for access to vets who have too many potatoes, turn their back on the idea that maybe if they can't hack those first two activities it might be time to break out the wallet, and then whinge about the "ideal f2p" which apparently doesn't exist, likely for a reason. Nothing to see here except many solutions to the problem of "how can I get a blue or yellow potato?" If you didn't know, you now have lots of options. If you're OP, artificially restricting your options based on your preferences isn't going to get DE to cater to you. You have many avenues available to obtain this item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACorpse Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Dude you didn't see but this guy is on PS4. Crud, you're right, didn't notice that. Still, PS4 had a reactor on the 10th, and 4 catalysts during october. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexRgisIocus Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Your scenario hinges on a very specific implementation, namely that catalyst/reactors would A) have a very low drop chance, and B) would not be found in the void. I (and I suspect many others as well) come across Forma more often than not as a byproduct of hunting for other things, like prime parts or mods; something similar might (or might not) happen with catalysts and reactors, depending on DE's implementation. Assuming the worst for the sake of bolstering your argument is...well, exactly what it sounds like. Besides that, the answer to "why farm it?" is the same as it is for any other object of value: it depends. I've given some that I think are reasonable: bad luck, needing drops for yourself, preference for the solo life, impatience for trading, etc. Personally, while I've had some good experiences with trading, I'd rather be able to just go get stuff myself because it gives me an excuse to get in and play the game. Your mileage may vary, but adding options doesn't really hurt anybody. My scenario hinges on knowing DE after 1.8k hours of playing. If some prime parts have drop rates of 2% (or Imperator Vandal's receiver which btw was time limited) what makes you think that something available in the market wouldnt be? If potatoes where put in the void many players (myself included) would be annoyed or downright pissed because of more clutter for my prime pieces (that I can use to buy taters in an easier way anyways). It would be the same as forma. Getting rewards I don't even need (currently have 5 reactors doing nothing in my inventory). Sure, others would be happy because they'd be able of farming them with almost impossible odds of even getting them. Adding the option doesn't hurt anyone, true, but its not needed. There are already ways to get taters; and we don't really need that many. As for Inventory slots. Just no. Taters I can sorta understand since you do need them for mid-high level content, but inventory slots aren't needed in any way. It doesn't break progression (even though taters don't either. You can clear the Star Chart with no taters just fine). The only point of slots is collecting things, some of which, I'll mention again, you wont even use after you max em. Anyways this discussion is getting nowhere since clearly our opinions on what needs to be farmable and what doesn't differ. You guys keep dismissing our points as "still not saying why they shouldn't be farmable" even though I've explained they don't need to be as there are already ways of getting em. Some people simply don't want to go through the trouble of trading (even though farming would be a hell of a lot more troublesome and prone to causing burnout). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) -snip- I was talking about the gift of the Lotus. You know, the ones with the 24 hour and predictable window of availability. Edited October 23, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchPhaeton Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Not needed imo. It just looks like you're just desperate, and for desperate ones there is the "buy for 20p" option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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