Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[BobBarnsen]

I hate this redesign.

And another frame lands on my pile of crapframes that i won't ever touch again - together with Mag and Mesa.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Works okay from what I have played. Especially like her 1 and three having become mobile. However, I think the energy consumption of all skills is a little high, since players are now encouraged to repeatedly cast two, if not three of her skills as opposed to before. IMO the cost of Molt should be lowered, or Toxic Lash be made a toggleable drain.

[RiouHotaru]

If energy is a problem, use Flow.

 

If duration is an issue, use Continuity/Constitution.

 

If you need energy in a hurry, use Rage.

 

None of these mods are difficult to get anymore.

 

Her HP coming down a bit is a small downside but otherwise it's amazing.  Yes, she does use more energy now than before, but even with a normal Streamline I've got energy to spare.  Admittedly, I have a Rank 9 Primed Flow (600 energy total), but even with a normal Flow it's still a good amount of energy.

 

About the only thing that bugs me is her slow sprint speed, but there's plenty of ways to compensate for that (Rush/Armored Agility).  I think people are way too harsh simply because Miasma isn't the room-wide killer it use to be.  Honestly, I've run her through a T4 Intercept up to round 8 without any problems save where I got a little too aggressive and bit off more than I could chew.  And for the record I could count the number of times I used Miasma on one hand.  Otherwise this rework is exactly what she needed.

 

People really underestimate just how powerful a forced Viral Proc actually is.

Edited November 5, 2015 by RiouHotaru

[rewt]

If energy is a problem, use Flow.

 

If duration is an issue, use Continuity/Constitution.

 

If you need energy in a hurry, use Rage.

 

None of these mods are difficult to get anymore.

 

Her HP coming down a bit is a small downside but otherwise it's amazing.  Yes, she does use more energy now than before, but even with a normal Streamline I've got energy to spare.  Admittedly, I have a Rank 9 Primed Flow (600 energy total), but even with a normal Flow it's still a good amount of energy.

 

About the only thing that bugs me is her slow sprint speed, but there's plenty of ways to compensate for that (Rush/Armored Agility).  I think people are way too harsh simply because Miasma isn't the room-wide killer it use to be.  Honestly, I've run her through a T4 Intercept up to round 8 without any problems save where I got a little too aggressive and bit off more than I could chew.  Otherwise this rework is exactly what she needed.

 

agree 100%

[xRufus7x]

After playing her I think she could use some tweaks. 

1. Toxic Lash should be a channeled ability.

2.Miasma should stack rather than refreshing the duration.

3.All remaining spore pods should detinate when the enemy is killed and the number of pods should be tied to power strength.

Ill add more as I play her more

Edited November 5, 2015 by xRufus7x

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

 

i wanna know that build

You don't consider that a good performance, do you?

[Forthebull]

"Saryn’s base Health is now 125"

im really not ok with this, i got so into sayrn when i read that she was that tanky female frame and when i finally got my health past 1000 i was so stoked and my love for her only went up when i learned her build paths and what not, but when i signed on today and saw my health could only get like 948 with a maxed Physique i was pretty annoyed. i get that she still has tank stats and its not the biggest nerf to her health but if we had to chop it down couldnt we atleast get 1000 with maxed vitality? hope im not the only one bothered by this

[AMDMAD]

So lets sum up everything:

 

Stats:

- Healh reduced (for no reason);

- Armor increased (not enough amount);

- Energy (see below);

 

Abilities:

- Spore: casting it while running / shooting isn't worth it; WF is a fast paced game, if you can aim to cast it, you can snipe a headshot;

- Molt: not the worst, not the best; FUN ADD: cast Molt near enemies > shoot your Atomos on it > watch it redirect EVERYWHERE;

- Toxic Lash: doesn't work most of the time and is not a real increase on damage;

- Miasma: unreliable; long 'cast' low-damage DoT that has a weak and unreliable CC;

 

My take on changes:

You now need way too much Energy to do what many frames can do with half the cost, time and modding necessary. On reading this thread I thought some cool things that could've been done with this rework:

 

- Spore: Spreads spores to all enemies in a 1m - 2m- 3m range from Saryn. Damage stays the same, spreading stays the same but will (100%) occur on enemy kill.

- Molt: Stays the same (as current) but will move to the opposite direction Saryn is faced (in relaxed walking speed) up to 2m (fixed value?).

- Toxic Lash: Stays the same, duration is increased, 50%(or+) chance to proc Gas on block (has the same block values from new one), increased damage or reworked for better scaling.

- Miasma (1): Creates a thick toxic fog that can proc 25% Corrosive, 25% Viral, 25% Gas and 25% Toxic (with increased damage for pure Toxic) to all enemies in a big AoE, while dealing damage per tick, up to 5 ticks. If enemies affected by Spore are in the AoE, those spores will explode dealing damage, spreading Spores to any enemy in the explosion area (similar to chain explosions for MolPrime). If enemies kill a Molt or it expires inside Miasma, a new one will be spawned randomly in a 5m around Saryn (can have multiple Molts including any new casted one, up to 5 total depending on duration).

- Miasma (2): Brings back the old one (won't happen).

 

[i think this Miasma would be fun to play with, making her skills synergize, while not necessarily making her A) a Nuker but still viable in several ocasions; B) NEED P.Flow to use her skills (no spamming of 1+2+3) and C) not needing complex modding.]

 

My Opinion:

I didn't really fear the change to her "press 4 kill ALL" because it was cheesy, and cheesy ≠ fun. But the current change reminded me of

. I just hope Saryn comes back for her 'roaring rampage of revenge'.

Well if you had a test server that FOUNDERS demanded for years we would not had this conversation

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Well if you had a test server that FOUNDERS demanded for years we would not had this conversation

 

It scares me that you would say founders and not design council members.

[Windy_Wind]

If you think of her as a late game damage dealer, she actually out-DPS every other frame in the game.

[Wakeoflove]

I find that saryn's synergy is a forced synergy unlike excalibur's synergy which is simply that all of his abilities seem to flow together. Particularly with his ultimate having elements of/synergy with other powers.

 

Saryn's abilities seem to *need* to be chained to be reasonably effective and she seems to be hampered by relying heavily on all stats, range, power, and duration.

 

To carry excalibur's style of synergy to saryn, I would suggest:

 

Spore: A spore pod should be able to be cast on the ground and any enemies who walk within it's spore producing radius should be infected. Enemies that are infected should constantly emit spores from their pods within a reasonable radius so that the infection spreads to nearby enemies. As stated earlier in the thread, why aim for a spore pod when you can take a head shot and be done with it? Bothering to aim at spores should probably explode and seed spores over a VERY large area to make it worth while. Also, having the spore pod emit a trail of spores/ be able to infect enemies it passes while en route to target would probably further enhance the "disease spreading" feel.

 

Molt: Molt should automatically be full of spores so that enemies who attack it get spored. Having to cast spore onto molt to give it that effect is just forced synergy and doesn't add to the excitement/joy of using saryn. Just an extra step in an attempt to force synergy between abilities. Also, molt doesn't appear to me to have a time of invulnerability where it collects damage and becomes even more damaging/has an even greater range. Did this get cut as an idea? It seems to me that a spore filled tissue sack would get irritated and inflamed as it was shot and clawed at and whatnot and might explode in an even bigger mess of infection and grossness.

 

Toxic lash: This would have been better if it extended to all weapons, having it melee only limits part of saryn's synergy to melee. Not even excalibur is limited to melee when he pulls out his energy sword. And generally, anything "limiting" is probably not so great. Perhaps it could have a lower bonus to ranged weapons than melee so it's still melee focused but the benefits of toxic lash aren't limited to melee. Especially not the "automatically pops spores" and bonus 100% toxic effect. I think it already is a separate toxic effect that doesn't combine with weapon mods keeping it a discrete stat, that should continue. Toxic lash should also be recastable while active so one does not have to wait for it to run out to refresh it.

 

Miasma: A concern I have with this ability but am not certain if it is one, is that miasma has a very short duration and increasing the duration can lead to numbers like 5.99 seconds. Does this round up to 6 and give you six ticks of damage or does one get screwed out of another damage instance by .01 seconds? To have damage per second work and not feel ripped off, I would think miasma needs a duration more in the base 10+ second range and be increased by seconds and not fractions of seconds so you might get a 30 second dot. The effects of popping spores and molts to spread spore effects would continue to be good, happenstance synergy rather than forced synergy.

 

Also, considering saryn is a toxic/disease spready type frame, I would think that leaving behind a fog/mist in the area she has miasma'd that will affect enemies who wander into it would be a thematically good thing. (visual should be low to the ground and non visibility impairing) It could be a fog that is some how (lore/technobable) sustained by saryn, so if she recasts it in a new location the old one dissipates and the new one becomes the new instance. Similar to hydroid's mr. slappy being recastable while active but disappearing from the old location.  Additionally, I find it baffling that saryn's ult is one of the lower range ultimates. If it really is a kind of miasma poison mist thing, I would think it would spread over quite a distance. Effectiveness (concentration/parts per million of toxin) could perhaps reduce from the epicenter, or it could have an initial cast radius that grows over time as it spreads, (or both) but either way I feel it should have a much larger area of effect.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Wakeoflove

[AMDMAD]

It scares me that you would say founders and not design council members.

What is the difrence?

[Balduron04]

Ok. I recently played Saryn to 40 minutes of T2 void survival solo under the old version, and I re-did the same thing, but with the updated version. I will attempt to make this as comprehensive as I can while trying to answer the one important question: Does it still work?

 

Imo, the point of a rework is to fix something that isn't working. If anything wasn't working, it was that miasma got more damage for shorter duration. The comparison can't be exactly the same, because the old build does NOT work anymore, not even close. My updated build took off transient fortitude for Primed Continuity, and that was the only change.

 

Spore: People have run the numbers, and I had to go back and read it again. You get a 100% viral proc when you explode a spore, not when the power is cast. It would be nice to get both. Venom had a 50% (seems like higher) chance per spore to proc viral per tic, so I could cast and it would proc viral when I expected. Casting while moving, shooting, reloading, etc is nice, but its still not volt. Or frost. Or ember. They all get aoe hits without having to pop a spore. Adding an aoe to the ability could make it more forgiving when targeting, and sporing the molt and some guys around it would just be quicker than sporing the molt and waiting for the baddies to hit it.

 

Molt: I'm enjoying the longer duration on it. There are some problems with the new feature of casting spore on the molt. Attackers who don't pop a spore won't get spores. The spores on molt explosion do work, and I have another bone to pick with you about molt that I will touch on later.

 

Venom Lash: Didn't use much. 1.3x melee damage for 30 seconds is ok. I could not tell if it was adding 30% or 130% more toxin damage to my attacks, and I did try to test.

 

Maisma: Maisma pops my molts. All of my molts. I've been able to make some use of this, which is both good, but it is poping my molts, which is bad. Its good since I can get that guaranteed 3 proc maisma with the use of 3 skills, but its bad when I want to keep a Molt up for the Regenerating Molt mod. My overall power strength went down, so I need the molt to stay alive and heal me at the later parts of the game. Its peeving me to have to re-cast molt after every maisma. The only way I can see to fix it is to have the spores on a molt explode when I ult and take the toxic proc with them. Or just have your Molt pulse with a toxic aura when you cast/hit it with another power.

 

I know you've already got rants about this, but... Huge change here, and I mean HUGE. I would hit for 8k/tic on the old version. 40 minutes into survival, i'd do between 3k and 5k. Now, after I molt, spore the molt, and Ult, I'm doing 315 damage per tic against a leeching eximus heavy gunner. I am just not seeing the damage being boosted like the skill says it should be. Except when it oneshots them. No idea how or why, but some of the corrupted ancients (approximately 30 mintues in) just fall over dead and then everyone else takes damage like normal.

 

Also, Heavy gunners like to cast skills between maisma ticks. She might have started before she got hit with maisma, but she did the blind animation, cast her radial knockdown skill, and then went back into the blind animation. It only happened twice, but it happened. :(

 

I'm enjoing the spore spreading and proc spreading with maisma. In fact, I am using maisma almost exclusively to spread the spore procs, with the rare aoe stun. I'm enjoying the chain-spreading of procs and spores with maisma, but that's only possible because things keep living through it. I'd rather they didn't.

 

I'm definately having to cast more skills, and I'm definately having a harder time without using guns. I managed to only go oom when there were leeching eximus from new loka around. Most of the rest of the time I had 75+ energy for the 40 minute mission.

 

Conclusion: Does saryn still work?

I really don't want to say yes. Her numbers feel like they should be tweaked, there is some questionable behavior with her skill synergy at the moment, and there's a lot of anger about how the only things that were improved are her armor and her max energy. She had a job as an extreme grineer killer, and she can't do that anymore. She can be a useful and valuable member of a team, but the adjustment period is gonna be painful.

 

Is she still fun?

I can still play her, and I can still be pretty good as this character, but I think the fun is gone. I can't explode the lvl 30 heavy gunners anymore. Is maisma still corosive damage anymore?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Balduron04

[Ikarru]

Normally, I'm okay with most of the reworks and ideas. And normally I don't post on the forums for feedback because it is normally a really solid idea and I trust that it was needed.

 

But this isn't one of those times for me. 

 

Saryn is my most used warframe in my missions (currently 14% of all missions) and I normally find her to be useful in a lot of situations.

 

My expectation for this entire rework;

- I finally get to have a specific load out so that I can utilize more status weapons to accommodate her 4.

- I get to use Grinlock with 98% status chance that I built a long time ago for this occasion; taking down priority targets that normally survive my miasma by giving toxin or viral effects.

- I get to fully utilize her skill kit for once.

 

When I got back on and updated 15 minutes ago; I was less than pleased.

For being my most used warframe (and arguably most liked next to Chroma) I have a hard time actually liking her anymore. By going so far as to not condensing her damage like it used to is just unbearably undesirable to even the most adept. She is known for one thing; blowing up the field and being a major DPS. (NOT a DoT). 

If this is actually a bug, I would be very relieved, but if this was intentional, I am quite disappointed. Not only was I looking forward to the change, but I had my dreams crushed as the change was clearly negative.

 

As for a lot of people who say reducing health for 20 armor is ridicule, I could really care less on that. Her armor is still decent and so is her health. 

[DSMatticus]

People really underestimate just how powerful a forced Viral Proc actually is.

Less powerful than almost every single other damage multiplying ability in the game.

 

I think you overestimate how powerful a forced viral proc actually is. It is in effect a +100% damage bonus.

[Ariies1st]

Everything given is great. No doubt DE. However, it would be nice to be able to replay the quests to get those scans.

[timerwin63]

What is the difrence?

 

Hunter-level founders aren't on DC. Those are the ones with just Excal Prime. And there are several members on DC who aren't founders. Not really a huge deal, though.

[Sebastianx]

...IS AWESOME.

 

No, really, hear me out.

 

But first, you have to know, that this works with an Ignis moded for Gas (which I think shouldn't be necessary, but I'll explain how easily this could change if DE wants to, just keep reading)

 

First of all, it seems that spore spread radius is now increased by power range (i'm currently at work and can't test that), but if it's true, that opens a whole NEW WORLD of possibilities Let's see the range of her currently best combo.

 

Spore = 16m

Molt = 10m

Miasma= 15m

 

Now, with max power range:

 

Spore = 37.6m

Molt = 23.5m

Miasma = 35.25m

 

Combo execution:

 

Cast Molt (0.1 seconds) > Cast Spore on Molt (0.5 seconds) > Cast Second Molt to detonate first Molt (0.1 seconds) and spread both the Spores and Molt 100% Toxic proc in a 23.5m radius > Make a 360 spin with the Ignis (1.5 seconds) to explode most (if not all) the Spores for further spread of damage and Viral proc with 100% chance > Cast Miasma and enjoy the INSANELY high damage procs since Miasma's damage gets Doubled then Tripled when hitting Toxin + Viral proced enemies.

Total combo setup time: 2 - 2.5 seconds.

 

CONS of current Saryn:

-High energy costs

-Low survivability

-Almost all abilities are effected by all stat modifiers (strength, duration, range, efficiency)

 

Ways to fix current Saryn:

-She should have the highest HP out of all frames, her appearence, DOT based kit and everything about her just screams high HP, low shields, average armor. (would also make more sense to use Regenerative Molt)

 

-Her ability costs should be cut in half, yes HALF. She is supposed to be the spammiest out of all the frames (besides Trinity maybe, but she can restore her own energy easily)...I'd expect to see her abilities with max efficiency to cost around: 3 Spore, 6.25 Molt, 12.5 Miasma...mostly because of her spammy kit and setup time.

 

-None of her skills should scale with power duration. Sounds insane, but that would actually increase her effectiveness as long as DE doesn't add very low durations on her skills. Just add like +25% increased duration to her current duration times to compensate.

 

-When Molt explodes with Spore on it, it should spread a Viral proc along the Toxin proc. This would mean that no Ignis is required for the combo I mentioned.

 

I seriously love Saryn now, gives me the feeling of a combo based warlock class, which is pretty cool.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Sebastianx

[Le_M0n]

сарину испортили теперь от нее толку нет 

[DeMeritus]

Her rework totally gutted her.

 

A nerfed effective hp when she was supposed to be higher hp.

 

Abilty's that will get you killed trying to setup vs stronger mobs then have miasma having no point anymore with no stun and really crap damage. 

 

And still slow as a woman with constipation.

 

And let me put this into your mind

 

See him?

 

 

You know he goes invisible and also has a ult that make him immune to damage?

 

He's also higher in effective hp then saryn while he's got to go fast. 

 

You know he's next on the nerf block, right?

[Husla]

so much cons, it's blinding my eyes

 

 

also this goes to Feedback section, no?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Husla

[Tesseract7777]

Yeah those who say "why Saryn when Ash still gets his Bladestorm", well... yeah, he's next... 

[climatiseur]

What I see from the general reaction

 

Before the change:  Saryn is a one trick pony! We need more synergies!

 

After the change: It takes so much time to cast abilities, Saryn should be a one trick pony!!

 

well...

 

I generally like this change. At least much better than previously.

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

Guys, please.

 

U need to think about Duration--Mana drain (Fleeting Expertise)--Strength triange.

I am just can't say about this Sarin rework nothing, before you are fix it.

 

I mean now for any duration intended bilds this is soooooo bad now.

I can't use Fleeting Expertise, I can't use Transient Fortitude (it is another Blind Rage).

 

Saryn mana effectiveness was change drastically.

 

So, before we even start talking about Nuke/duration changes, we need to focus at lost Strength and Efficiency.

[DSMatticus]

What I see from the general reaction

 

Before the change:  Saryn is a one trick pony! We need more synergies!

 

After the change: It takes so much time to cast abilities, Saryn should be a one trick pony!!

 

well...

 

I generally like this change. At least much better than previously.

No, before the change I said "Saryn is a one trick pony. If you're going to nerf her 4, she needs more versatility." After the change I said, "you didn't give Saryn any real versatility, she is still a one trick pony and now she sucks at that trick." You are not finding some inconsistency in people's positions. You're just strawmanning people rather rudely by refusing to read what they've said.

 

My go-to argument has always been to compare Saryn to Frost - both have a nukey 4. Frost's did less damage, but had better built-in CC - and Frost also has snow globe, a fantastic utility ability.

 

What does Saryn have besides her nukey 4, which is no longer really all that nukey and still isn't all that great CC? And the answer is; nothing that really makes her all that great. Some subpar damage multiplication from her 1.